Weapon/armor augment Crystals

[BRC]

So, I was flipping through the MIC, and I ran into Weapon Crystals. I was building a character for a friend of one of the players who was going to play one session. The character ended up being really awesome yet simple, but that's besides the point.

What are peoples opinions on Weapon Crystals. I gave this character the Elemental Assault (lesser) crystal, and as far as I can tell this possesses significant advantages over the standard Damage weapon properties.


So really, my question is this. Are Weapon Crystals a good idea? Should I ban them, or ban a few of them? Are they the way magic weapons should have been done from the start? Ect.

[Starbuck_II]

I think they are fantastic idea. Better loot for PCs:
no more "flaming short sword, but Jim's Fighter is focused on Longswords"

They are limited by weapon bonus (Greater can only be placed on +3 weapon). Lesser +1, etc.

[Starscream]

I play a lot of rogues, and I personally love the Greater Truedeath Crystals. Every rogue should have a set!

[AmberVael]

So really, my question is this. Are Weapon Crystals a good idea?
A good idea in terms of what?

I've had characters buy a few. They're not bad in terms of player use.


Should I ban them, or ban a few of them?
Nah. They are so not ban worthy.


Are they the way magic weapons should have been done from the start?
They're certainly closer. Magic weapon creation at the current moment is exponentially expensive, and it also prevents you from really switching around what weapon you focus on and use.

So it is inefficient in terms of gold, and narrows you into one path.

Weapon crystals make it a more modular, less exponential system. You aren't stuck using a single weapon, and the prices aren't dependent on the rest of the weapon. Is it perfect? Hell no, but it is better than it was.

[BRC]

A good idea in terms of what?

I've had characters buy a few. They're not bad in terms of player use.

A good Idea from a DM's perspective, as in, should I include them in my campaign. Apparently the answer is Yes, which is a big load off my mind.

[Sinfire Titan]

This is what abilities like Flaming should have been all along. A bit restrictive, but flexible enough that they are worth having two or three.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The thing to remember about Greater Truedeath Crystals is that they can only be inserted into a weapon with a +5 Enhancement Bonus. Not +5 equivalent, you need to shell out the dough for a +5 weapon. Which is nearly worthless when it is all duplicated with a single spell.

[Sinfire Titan]

The thing to remember about Greater Truedeath Crystals is that they can only be inserted into a weapon with a +5 Enhancement Bonus. Not +5 equivalent, you need to shell out the dough for a +5 weapon. Which is nearly worthless when it is all duplicated with a single spell.

I think you mean a +3 weapon. It's a Greater Augment Crystal.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think you mean a +3 weapon. It's a Greater Augment Crystal.

Still wasting a hell of a lot of gold just to be able to equip it

[Cuaqchi]

Considering that Greater True death as the example adds 1d6 Damage against Undead (A Weak +1/2 Effect), Ghost Touch (A +1 Effect) and the Ability to Crit/Sneak Attack any Undead (A +1 or +2 Effect) and that you can put it on any +3 or better weapon I would say that it is actually better to have if your campaign has Undead in any number.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Considering that Greater True death as the example adds 1d6 Damage against Undead (A Weak +1/2 Effect), Ghost Touch (A +1 Effect) and the Ability to Crit/Sneak Attack any Undead (A +1 or +2 Effect) and that you can put it on any +3 or better weapon I would say that it is actually better to have if your campaign has Undead in any number.

Numbers do not support you.

A base +3 weapon is 18,000gp

A base +1 weapon is 2,000gp

A +1 Undead Bane Ghost Touch weapon costs 18,000 by itself. That's without spending money on a crystal, but also does not grant the ability to sneak attack undead.

However,

A +1 Ghost Touch weapon only costs 8,000, and a Wand of Gravestrike only costs 750. If you don't give a darn about 1d6 damage, just skip the Undead Bane.

Furthermore,

Getting further bonuses on a +3 weapon costs more than a +1.

You have a +3 weapon. That's not too special, considering a GMW can do the same, or better. Then you slap the crystal into it.

So, let's say you want to put Keen on it. That's another +1.

A +1 Ghost Touch dagger would cost 10k to go from a +2 equivalent to a +3.

However, it costs 14k extra to go from a +3 to a +4 equivalent.

If you don't need Ghost Touch, it gets even worse. It's only a 6k difference between a +1 and a +2.

So, with access to Greater Magic Weapon (every party I've both been in and GM'd), the +3 equivalent is a waste of resources, even calculating in the worth of the crystal itself.

[ken-do-nim]

So, with access to Greater Magic Weapon (every party I've both been in and GM'd), the +3 equivalent is a waste of resources, even calculating in the worth of the crystal itself.

And every party I've been in that has relied on greater magic weapon (and magical vestment) has gotten nuked by greater dispel magic - repeatedly. The DM even equipped opponents with weapons that did dispel magic on each hit.

[sofawall]

Which would screw over magic items as well, no?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And every party I've been in that has relied on greater magic weapon (and magical vestment) has gotten nuked by greater dispel magic - repeatedly. The DM even equipped opponents with weapons that did dispel magic on each hit.

Fine. Opponent caster wants to waste an action Dispelling? That's ONE target he gets to dispel, instead of using encounter-winning actions.

Honestly, I'd be tempted to TELL them you're buffed to the gills, just so they will waste their time dispelling our guys while we disassemble them.

It's called win/win. You waste your actions trying to dispel out buffs. Even if you strip them, it's not like we can't just re-cast them after combat, and you just blew your chance to do anything meaningful in combat to disable a renewable resource. Sucker.

[elonin]

As a player of rogues I really like the truedeath and demolition crystals as well as the armor crystal that adds to mind affecting spells. Without them I'd have +1 equipment with effects, but the crystals seem to make it worth getting the +3

[Foryn Gilnith]

Actions are much more renewable than spell slots, in my experience. As are the HP that would be taken from you by enemies' actions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actions are much more renewable than spell slots, in my experience. As are the HP that would be taken from you by enemies' actions.

A common mis-conception.

Spells, used out of combat, that last hours/level, can be cast at any time, and as many as you have spell slots can be stacked up for maximum gain.

However, during combat, the single most precious thing you have are actions. A single action can spell the difference between sucess and failure.

Allow me to demonstrate.

Greater Dispel Magic is a 6th level spell.

So is Split Ray Enervation
So is Heightened Slow
Solid Fog is only 5th level
Baleful Polymorph is only 5th level
heck, Polymorph is only 4th
Chain Lighting and Freezing Sphere are both 6th level spells, if you like blastomancy
Circle of Death is also 6th level spell
So is Disintegrate
So is Flesh to Stone

Guess which one hampers my effectiveness the least...

single target? I'd much rather get hit by a Greater Dispel than, say, Disintegrate, Empowered Enervation (or split-ray, if you prefer), Baleful Polymorph (Save or Loose), Flesh to Stone (Save or Loose), and unless you have some form of Evasion, even making your save on the Blastomancy makes it around 12d6/2 damage, and also likely hits multiple targets.

Heightened Slow will at least keep the beatsticks off of the Bad Guys effectively. Hitting a caster with a couple of Enervations means you loose access to your higher level shut-down spells.

Any of these are more worthwhile tactics than using Greater dispel Magic. Most of these are one-round perma-screw a PC, and *FAR* more dangerous than GDM.

So yea, please, choose to use the least effective tactic at your disposal rather than forcing a save against my weak save or loosing and probably loosing my character as well.

[tyckspoon]

And every party I've been in that has relied on greater magic weapon (and magical vestment) has gotten nuked by greater dispel magic - repeatedly. The DM even equipped opponents with weapons that did dispel magic on each hit.

Remember that Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are cast on the weapon and armor, not on the character carrying them. You either need an area Dispel to cover them or to target them specifically- if you have an enemy targeting his dispels directly against the characters, it's going to miss the GMW/Magic Vestment effect completely (a good area Dispel, on the other hand, stands pretty good chances of turning off a few GMWs and Magic Vestments if you don't have any investment in dispel protection- they're liable to be the only actual spells running on those particular objects.) If they *are* targeting the weapon directly, well, I have to agree with Shneekey. There are far more dangerous things an enemy could be doing with a sixth-level spell slot.

[Keld Denar]

Also, GMW enchants the WEAPON, so a targeted dispel magic against the player (to strip off things like Haste or RRotF or similar) would not affect weapons affected by GMW or armor affected by MV. So, unless its a Chained Dispel Magic you are facing, the odds of taking a targeted dispel magic to the sword is relatively low, and in this sitation, a duel wielder would kinda have an advantage as it would take 2 seperate spells (and thus 2 actions) to nulify his GMWs, simply to make the crystals fall off.

The Calling Crystals are pretty sexy as well, even the least, as it gives Quickdraw with that weapon.

[herrhauptmann]

Numbers do not support you.

A base +3 weapon is 18,000gp

A base +1 weapon is 2,000gp

A +1 Undead Bane Ghost Touch weapon costs 18,000 by itself. That's without spending money on a crystal, but also does not grant the ability to sneak attack undead.

However,

A +1 Ghost Touch weapon only costs 8,000, and a Wand of Gravestrike only costs 750. If you don't give a darn about 1d6 damage, just skip the Undead Bane.

Furthermore,

Getting further bonuses on a +3 weapon costs more than a +1.

You have a +3 weapon. That's not too special, considering a GMW can do the same, or better. Then you slap the crystal into it.

So, let's say you want to put Keen on it. That's another +1.

A +1 Ghost Touch dagger would cost 10k to go from a +2 equivalent to a +3.

However, it costs 14k extra to go from a +3 to a +4 equivalent.

If you don't need Ghost Touch, it gets even worse. It's only a 6k difference between a +1 and a +2.

So, with access to Greater Magic Weapon (every party I've both been in and GM'd), the +3 equivalent is a waste of resources, even calculating in the worth of the crystal itself.

Umm, instead, why not just compare a +3 weapon with a greater truedeath crystal, vs a +1 Ghost touch/ghost strike weapon? I'm not going to jump into the argument regarding the cost effectiveness of a wand of gravestrike.
The wand requires a use each round unless it's been persisted. And requires an extra action. Either from the wielder, or a mage or UMD character in the party. Depending on equipment selection, you've got the crystal on your weapon or not. If not, it's an action to attach it. One that doesn't rely on a party member. If you can use the wand yourself, well then, action economy is the same.

+ 3 weapon= 18000gp. Greater truedeath 10000gp. Total is 28000. Is +3, with 1d6 bonus damage.

+1 weapon, Ghost touch (+1), Ghost strike (+1) = 18000 gp. Costs 10000 less than the weapon+crystal, but has an effective enhancement of +2 less, and lacks the 1d6 bonus damage.

In both cases, your weapon acts as a Ghost touch, ghost strike, which means it hits incorporeal/corporeal in a manner beneficial to you. Using the crystal is more expensive, but you can swap the crystal out for something else when you want.

[Draz74]

The Calling Return Crystals are pretty sexy as well, even the least, as it gives Quickdraw with that weapon.

Yep, pretty much every high-level character should have a couple of backup weapons with Least Return Crystals attached to them (unless the character actually has Quick Draw for some reason).

[Forever Curious]

I actually wrote up a potential fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142907) for weapon/armor crystals. More versatility and cost effective.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Umm, instead, why not just compare a +3 weapon with a greater truedeath crystal, vs a +1 Ghost touch/ghost strike weapon? I'm not going to jump into the argument regarding the cost effectiveness of a wand of gravestrike.
The wand requires a use each round unless it's been persisted. And requires an extra action. Either from the wielder, or a mage or UMD character in the party. Depending on equipment selection, you've got the crystal on your weapon or not. If not, it's an action to attach it. One that doesn't rely on a party member. If you can use the wand yourself, well then, action economy is the same.

+ 3 weapon= 18000gp. Greater truedeath 10000gp. Total is 28000. Is +3, with 1d6 bonus damage.

+1 weapon, Ghost touch (+1), Ghost strike (+1) = 18000 gp. Costs 10000 less than the weapon+crystal, but has an effective enhancement of +2 less, and lacks the 1d6 bonus damage.

In both cases, your weapon acts as a Ghost touch, ghost strike, which means it hits incorporeal/corporeal in a manner beneficial to you. Using the crystal is more expensive, but you can swap the crystal out for something else when you want.

How about... not.

Gravestrike is a Swift action. Meaning you can pull it off and still get your full round of actions. With a Wand Sheath, you don't need an equipment slot.

Who cares about +1d6 which is exceedingly situational?

And Ghost Touch is very situational as well, completely worthless unless you are facing incorporeal creatures.

So yea, again, for less than 3k, and a buff, I can have the same effect you got by spending 28k (18 on the +3 and 10k on the crystal).

[Melayl]

Aren't most incorporeal creatures undead? Most of the creatures you'd use it against would therefore be undead. If so, how is the +1d6 "exceedingly situational"?

Not to mention that the extra +2 to-hit/damage bonus is also always useful.

And you can swap crystals.

I'd have to side with herrhauptmann on this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Aren't most incorporeal creatures undead? Most of the creatures you'd use it against would therefore be undead. If so, how is the +1d6 "exceedingly situational"?

Not to mention that the extra +2 to-hit/damage bonus is also always useful.

And you can swap crystals.

I'd have to side with herrhauptmann on this.

the +2 to-hit/damage is more than covered by Greater Magic Weapon.

The 'situational' part is where undead are usually not that prevalent. And when they are, mostly they aren't incorporeal. There's only a few types of incorporeal undead, and they are generally handled a lot easier using methods other than using weapons.

For those occasions in which you do run into Undead, a Wand of Gravestrike will let you sneak attack them. That should be more than sufficient damage output, without needing an extra 1d6, at the cost of over 25k gp. If I'm that desperate for damage, there are far more effective ways to increase damage.

[Sliver]

Why can't you attach a greater crystal to a weapon that was GMWed?

[ken-do-nim]

Remember that Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are cast on the weapon and armor, not on the character carrying them. You either need an area Dispel to cover them or to target them specifically- if you have an enemy targeting his dispels directly against the characters, it's going to miss the GMW/Magic Vestment effect completely (a good area Dispel, on the other hand, stands pretty good chances of turning off a few GMWs and Magic Vestments if you don't have any investment in dispel protection- they're liable to be the only actual spells running on those particular objects.) If they *are* targeting the weapon directly, well, I have to agree with Shneekey. There are far more dangerous things an enemy could be doing with a sixth-level spell slot.

Wow - sounds like we got that wrong. Could you provide me a reference in the books somewhere to back up this ruling? We assumed items in one's possession were included in a targeted dispel.

[Sliver]

Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.


Magic Weapon
Target: Weapon touched

Seems clear that Magic Weapon can't be dispelled by targeting the creature wielding the weapon.. Unless it's a monk, I guess...

[Aharon]

A lesser augment crystal functions when affixed to an object with a magical enhancement bonus of +1 or higher (such as a +1 longsword). A greater augment crystal functions when bonded with an item with at least a +3 enhancement bonus. Only the item's actual bonus matters: a +3 dagger can house a greater augment crystal, but a +1 flaming keen rapier cannot.
(found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070209a))


This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).

So where's the problem? Cast Greater Magic Weapon, put in your Greater Truedeath Crystal. GMW grants the enhancement bonus you need to affix the crystal. Nowhere in the description of the crystals does it say that the item's actual bonus has to be permanent - and the actual bonus is the highest bonus it has at the moment.

[ken-do-nim]

Seems clear that Magic Weapon can't be dispelled by targeting the creature wielding the weapon.. Unless it's a monk, I guess...

Ok, thanks.

[Sinfire Titan]

Why can't you attach a greater crystal to a weapon that was GMWed?

You can, some people feel that it shouldn't be allowed though (because melee can't have nice things).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

(found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070209a))



So where's the problem? Cast Greater Magic Weapon, put in your Greater Truedeath Crystal. GMW grants the enhancement bonus you need to affix the crystal. Nowhere in the description of the crystals does it say that the item's actual bonus has to be permanent - and the actual bonus is the highest bonus it has at the moment.

The part where the item's Enhancement Bonus isn't affected by GMW. GMW just gives an Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage, which doesn't stack with the item's bonus because it is the same type. The base item still has a bonus of +1, not +3, and the crystal won't attach. Just like a casting of Bull's Strength to raise your STR score will not permit you to qualify for feats that require a higher STR score.

[Fiery Diamond]

How about... not.

Gravestrike is a Swift action. Meaning you can pull it off and still get your full round of actions. With a Wand Sheath, you don't need an equipment slot.

Actually, no. Using a wand is a standard action, even if the spell is a swift action.

[Draz74]

Just like a casting of Bull's Strength to raise your STR score will not permit you to qualify for feats that require a higher STR score.

The rest of your argument sounded plausible -- I'm not sure whether it's correct, but I was following it fine -- but this example doesn't seem to have any relation to what you were saying before. Bull's Strength doesn't say "+2 bonus to attack/damage/strength checks, as if it raised your Strength score by 4." It says it raises your Strength score by 4.

Not to mention, I'm not sure you can't take Feats based on a Bull's Strength'd Strength score. You can with a Belt of Giant Strength. If you can't with Bull's Strength, it's only because it doesn't last long enough ... in which case, again, I fail to see the analogy with the Weapon Crystals issue.

EDIT again: Greater Magic Weapon says "This spell ... gives a weapon an enhancement bonus ..." which makes me think, again, that it does work for weapon crystals.


Actually, no. Using a wand is a standard action, even if the spell is a swift action.

This was true until Rules Compendium changed it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, no. Using a wand is a standard action, even if the spell is a swift action.

Try again. It's a use-activated item, which means it has the same activation time as the spell itself. It was errata'd.

[Sinfire Titan]

Try again. It's a use-activated item, which means it has the same activation time as the spell itself. It was errata'd.

It wasn't errata'ed, they printed two different rules for it in the DMG, then errata'ed one away. The Rules Compendium made the mistake of reprinting both, but that was clarified to be an error.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It wasn't errata'ed, they printed two different rules for it in the DMG, then errata'ed one away. The Rules Compendium made the mistake of reprinting both, but that was clarified to be an error.

Either it was errata'ed or it wasn't. Pick one. Either way, using a Wand of a spell with a swift action takes only a swift action.

[Sinfire Titan]

Either it was errata'ed or it wasn't. Pick one. Either way, using a Wand of a spell with a swift action takes only a swift action.

...Right, it was errata'ed by omission. My bad. The exceptions are Eternal Wands, which are a minimum Standard action IIRC.

[d13]

ust like a casting of Bull's Strength to raise your STR score will not permit you to qualify for feats that require a higher STR score.

Actually, I think it does, but you lose the benefit of the feat when you cease to qualify.

Much like PrCs.

[Sinfire Titan]

Actually, I think it does, but you lose the benefit of the feat when you cease to qualify.

Much like PrCs.

This is correct, but you usually have trouble having the spell's benefits active when gaining the feat in the first place (it needs to either have a duration of 24 hours for some DMs or you need Heroics).

[Aharon]

@Shneekey

The part where the item's Enhancement Bonus isn't affected by GMW.

But it is. It gives the item a new Enhancement Bonus. A higher one. You could even take a nonmagical weapon, put an enhancement bonus on it, and affix a crystal. If it didn't give the item a higher enhancement bonus, GMW wouldn't do anything, because the item would retain its old enhancement bonus. There is no difference between the bonus created by the spell and the bonus created by creating the sword, except one has duration CL hours, and the other has duration permanent, with the additional benefit of being only temporarily dispellable. The text under magic weapons says


Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

How is that not exactly the same thing Greater Magic Weapon does? Hell, I know D&D names are sometimes misleading (like Darkness), but its even called Magic Weapon, so I think it's safe to assume it's intended to make the weapon... you know, magic.

[Draz74]

The exceptions are Eternal Wands, which are a minimum Standard action IIRC.

:smallfrown: Next you'll be telling me Eternal Wands don't work in a Wand Bracer or Wand Chamber either.

Reference?

[Sinfire Titan]

:smallfrown: Next you'll be telling me Eternal Wands don't work in a Wand Bracer or Wand Chamber either.

Reference?

AFb from my MiC copy, but it's a Wondrous Item in addition to a Wand. There's no errata, so it all depends on DM reading. Check the stat block and see what type of action it lists. if none, DM's choice.



But by RAW they work with the Bracer and the Chamber due to their small size (you just need to make sure the Dragonshard at the end isn't that big).