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Zergrusheddie
2010-02-20, 04:06 PM
I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

Gnaeus
2010-02-20, 04:09 PM
If you enter at level 5 it gets 9th level cleric spells by level 14, 3 levels before anyone else. It is especially strong when put in combination with other rapid casting classes (like sublime chord) and dual casting PRCs like Mystic Theurge.

Kylarra
2010-02-20, 04:09 PM
I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?9th level divine casting in 9 levels. Great with theurge type characters or to just give yourself full divine casting in half the normal time.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-20, 04:11 PM
I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

It gets spells levels faster than a base class.

A Rogue can enter it by 5th (since require skills) and gain 9th level spells before a Straight Cleric would.

Zergrusheddie
2010-02-20, 04:18 PM
However, it states that it adds 1/2 the levels of other Spellcasting classes, not ever class. I probably reading it wrong so an in depth explanation is probably required.

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

Starbuck_II
2010-02-20, 04:23 PM
Yeah, Bard probably works better.

If you believe the Sample character: you don't need 17th caster level to use 9th level spells.

Their example is a 4th level caster with 4th level spells (Cleric levels don't count). The characte is 4th Cleric/1 Rogue/Ur Priest 4 = 0 (Cleric no count) +1/2 of 1 (round down to 0) + 4 caster.

SaintRidley
2010-02-20, 04:25 PM
However, it states that it adds 1/2 the levels of other Spellcasting classes, not ever class. I probably reading it wrong so an in depth explanation is probably required.

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

That's for caster level, which doesn't have anything to do with the spell level.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-20, 04:28 PM
That makes it even cheesier. When you combine Ur-Priest with spellcasting-advancing PrC's, it starts double-dipping at 1.5/level. With the Criminal background feat, a Wizard 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 has 9th level arcane spells at CL18, and 9th level divine spells at CL 21 (effective UP level 12, +5 for 10 levels of MT, +4 for 8 levels of wizard).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-20, 04:30 PM
That's for caster level, which doesn't have anything to do with the spell level.

Yeah, spell level is much more important than caster level. Without using the stuff Glyphstone mentioned, a [non-caster] 5/Ur-Priest 10 has a caster level of just 10, but it still gets those high-level spells early, so it doesn't really matter.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-20, 04:43 PM
It's one of the few ways to make a Mystic Theurge worth playing. And as a Mystic Theurge, you're not going to get any Divine spellcasting early. Two lost Wizard spellcasting levels for a few Cleric spells per day? Seems reasonable to me.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 05:26 AM
I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

It's Cleric in 10 levels. Cleric in 20 levels is a Tier 1 class. See the problem?

Also, if you go through to level 10 instead of taking a dual-advancement PrC, you get 3 free wishes per day from summoned Efreeti.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 05:31 AM
Best class to enter Ur Priest from: Bard (Savage Bard variant, UA).

Without Early entry, you'll need to be Bard 5.

Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Psychic Theurge 1

9th level arcane and divine spells by Level 20, as well as 4th level psionic powers.

There are other examples that are less balanced.


Also, if you go through to level 10 instead of taking a dual-advancement PrC, you get 3 free wishes per day from summoned Efreeti.

No you don't. Summoned creatures never grant spells that cost XP, or SLA's that would cost XP if they were normally cast. You need Called creatures for that.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 06:11 AM
No you don't. Summoned creatures never grant spells that cost XP, or SLA's that would cost XP if they were normally cast. You need Called creatures for that.

Yeah, yeah, I slipped up. I meant Called.

Although, the ability is "grant three wishes", not "wish". It's 1/day. So technically, it's not an SLA that would cost XP if it were cast, because it doesn't duplicate a spell.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 06:25 AM
Yeah, yeah, I slipped up. I meant Called.

Although, the ability is "grant three wishes", not "wish". It's 1/day. So technically, it's not an SLA that would cost XP if it were cast, because it doesn't duplicate a spell.

Ah, but then, there's no rules at all for defining how they function, now are there? So technically, nothing happens, because there's no rules at all to adjudicate how the ability functions.

Can't have it both ways, friend. Can't use the spell rules to determine how it functions, then states that it isn't the spell.

By my interpretation? The SLA does duplicate a spell. Three times.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 07:05 AM
Ah, but then, there's no rules at all for defining how they function, now are there? So technically, nothing happens, because there's no rules at all to adjudicate how the ability functions.

Can't have it both ways, friend. Can't use the spell rules to determine how it functions, then states that it isn't the spell.

By my interpretation? The SLA does duplicate a spell. Three times.

I was only half serious and was playing devil's advocate. (Or munchkin's advocate, as the case may be.)

Also, if you have enough Int to get all those skill points, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1 is a great entry for Ur-Priest.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 07:17 AM
I was only half serious and was playing devil's advocate. (Or munchkin's advocate, as the case may be.)

Also, if you have enough Int to get all those skill points, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1 is a great entry for Ur-Priest.

With the right Tricks?

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Wizard 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Wizard) 8 / Psychic Theurge 3

or

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Wiz PrC 4
Alternately:

Savage Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 2 / Subverted Psion 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

9th level arcane and divine, everything off wisdom (since wis determines max taint score for Sublime Chord now), DCs/bonus spells on arcane side set by taint.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 07:21 AM
With the right Tricks?

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Wizard 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Wizard) 8 / Psychic Theurge 3

or

Savage Bard 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Wiz PrC 4
Alternately:

Savage Bard 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Ardent 2 / Subverted Psion 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

9th level arcane and divine, everything off wisdom (since wis determines max taint score for Sublime Chord now), DCs/bonus spells on arcane side set by taint.

If you're going down that route, you can tidy everything up dramatically by just taking Beholder Mage. I was assuming we weren't getting into stupendous cheese like that.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 07:21 AM
That's where I draw the line. Beholder Mage is bad. Just bad. Anything that messes with action economy is worse than most other things.

And that PrC bends action economy over and... institutes corporal punishment via spanking.

With a hammer.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 07:28 AM
That's where I draw the line. Beholder Mage is bad. Just bad. Anything that messes with action economy is worse than most other things.

And that PrC bends action economy over and... institutes corporal punishment via spanking.

With a hammer.

It's not much worse than Tainted "I can kill you with 90% certainty with a level 4 spell" Scholar (especially combined with Subverted Psion). If you just want 9th level arcane and divine, then just go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/PrC of choice 4.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 07:35 AM
It's not much worse than Tainted "I can kill you with 90% certainty with a level 4 spell" Scholar (especially combined with Subverted Psion). If you just want 9th level arcane and divine, then just go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/PrC of choice 4.

Tainted scholar can be stopped by a counterspell specialist.
Beholder Mage can be stopped by 5 counterspell specialists.

There's the difference.

I listed non-tainted scholar builds in there, as well, for those that want to limit their cheese intake.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 07:40 AM
I just think Savage Bard and Sublime Chord are overcomplicating things when you can get 9th level in both without them.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-02-21, 11:42 AM
All of the above, plus a little known point: the ur-priest can craft many magic items cheaper than even an artificer. PHB pg 171 says that a spell must be cast at a minimum caster level. The minimum caster level for a spell is equal to the level in the spell-casting class that grants access to that spell. The wording in the ur-priest's spell-casting class feature says that he casts spells from the ur-priest spell list, which is identical to the cleric spell list. This means that the minimum caster level for an ur-priest spell is the same as the spell level of that spell. The formulas for many magic items are Caster level*spell level*X. Example: Wands, a wand of a fourth level cleric spell costs 7(cl)*4(spell level)*750=21000 while the same wand crafted by an ur-priest would only cost 4(cl)*4(spell level)*750=12000. That's a more than a 40% discount. Take the crafting cost reduction feats from ECS and you can get some mighty cheap cleric spells. Though now that I think about it, I guess an artificer could make copies of ur-priest spells in his crafting too.

Eloel
2010-02-21, 12:24 PM
I guess an artificer could make copies of ur-priest spells in his crafting too.

Artificer can now create 9th level cleric scrolls for 1k + some crafting xp?
Yay.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-21, 12:25 PM
Could an Archivist learn Ur-Priest spells at those levels?

Eloel
2010-02-21, 12:28 PM
Could an Archivist learn Ur-Priest spells at those levels?

Archivist can't -cast- spells anyhow...

Pluto
2010-02-21, 12:31 PM
I am always reading about the Ur-priest and how it is extremely powerful. Reading through it, I don't really see where the extreme power comes in. Any care to explain?

It's also worth pointing out that it's often talked up to be a bit stronger than it deserves.
(see the claims talking it up as a powerhouse at ECL 10, despite the feats it sinks, its miniscule spells per day, its lack of domains, etc.)

It's mostly useful for putting 9th level spells into high-level builds that wouldn't normally be able to fit all the necessary levels in.

Eloel
2010-02-21, 12:39 PM
It's also worth pointing out that it's often talked up to be a bit stronger than it deserves.
(see the claims talking it up as a powerhouse at ECL 10, despite the feats it sinks, its miniscule spells per day, its lack of domains, etc.)

It's mostly useful for putting 9th level spells into high-level builds that wouldn't normally be able to fit all the necessary levels in.

It lets you get 10 levels of -other classes- compared to a cleric.
10 levels of goodies beat 2 domains any day.

Also, cookies for your signature.

2xMachina
2010-02-21, 12:39 PM
It's Cleric in 10 levels. Cleric in 20 levels is a Tier 1 class. See the problem?

Also, if you go through to level 10 instead of taking a dual-advancement PrC, you get 3 free wishes per day from summoned Efreeti.

Eh, you just have to near them. You can basically just look at 1, and get wishes without them even knowing.

Pluto
2010-02-21, 12:42 PM
It lets you get 10 levels of -other classes- compared to a cleric.
Right.

I'm not saying it isn't a powerful class.

It is a powerful class.

It is just often talked up as being more powerful than it actually is.

(My example was seeing it mentioned as if it were an instant-win button at ECL 10 (not Class level 10). I would argue that an ECL 9 Cleric is more powerful than most ECL 10 Ur-Priests. Spells are just that good.)

Starbuck_II
2010-02-21, 12:45 PM
Right.

I'm not saying it isn't a powerful class.

It is a powerful class.

It is just often talked up as being more powerful than it actually is.

(I would argue that an ECL 9 Cleric is more powerful than most ECL 10 Ur-Priests. Spells are just that good.)

True, but compare ECL 11 Cleric (6th level)) with ECL 12 Ur Priest (7th level).

Pluto
2010-02-21, 12:47 PM
True, but compare ECL 11 Cleric (6th level)) with ECL 12 Ur Priest (7th level).

Right. It is a powerful class.

tyckspoon
2010-02-21, 12:49 PM
Archivist can't -cast- spells anyhow...

Artificer =/= Archivist.

To answer the question: Yes, an Archivist can learn from an Ur-Priest, but there wouldn't be much extra benefit from it. They work with the same base spell lists, and the Ur-Priest's ability to learn spells earlier and cast them at abnormally low caster levels won't carry over to the Archivist.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-02-21, 02:27 PM
Artificer =/= Archivist.

To answer the question: Yes, an Archivist can learn from an Ur-Priest, but there wouldn't be much extra benefit from it. They work with the same base spell lists, and the Ur-Priest's ability to learn spells earlier and cast them at abnormally low caster levels won't carry over to the Archivist.

This is definitely true. Archivist still gets his 4th level spells at level 7 and still has to cast them at CL 7 just like most other prepared casters.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 02:28 PM
I just think Savage Bard and Sublime Chord are overcomplicating things when you can get 9th level in both without them.

Savage Bard is pretty much a class that couldn't have been made more for Ur-Priest if you tried.

Let's look at Ur-Priest requirements and benefits.

Fort + 2, Will +2 (Savage Bard - Strong Fort and Will)

Skills: Bluff 6, Know (Arcana) 5, Know (Planes) 5, Know (Religion) 8, Spellcraft 8 (All class skills for savage bard, and Skills at 6+Int means you have enough skill points for all as a nonhuman with an 8 intelligence)
No Divine Casting/Must Be Evil (both are fulfilled).

Benefit: Other Arcane Caster levels stack with ur-priest for determining caster level. (Savage Bard has full CL advancement).

It's not overcomplicating things. It's simplifying. You qualify for Ur-Priest with savage bard, and nothing else, and easily. It's good for the same reason Master Specialist is a natural tie-in to Iot7V and Archmage.

strider24seven
2010-02-21, 02:56 PM
The Ur-Priest is pretty powerful, but it does come at a cost:

The thing about Ur-Priest is that the entry requirements are pretty stiff. Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil) are two pretty aweful feats. Plus you need quite a few skills AND a decent fort save. Savage Bard alleviates these issues a bit, but still needs to burn two feats.

Although there's nothing like a Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest theurge.:smallbiggrin:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-21, 03:07 PM
I lol at how the boards fell for an obvious troll. :smallsigh:

gorfnab
2010-02-21, 03:16 PM
Savage Bard may work well for Ur-Priest but I prefer a more flavorful entry and build: Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-21, 03:16 PM
I lol at how the boards fell for an obvious troll. :smallsigh:

Where, exactly?

My own contribution: I like the Ur-Priest, but most of my D&D characters worship deities (the fluff is easy enough to change, but still). Also with its standard flavour, from what I've read when it has turned up elsewhere, it seems to be just behind Paladin in "Classes most likely to be screwed over due to fluff". I've seen various suggestions of what to send at someone siphoning power from the gods, none of them were nice, despite the fact that the Ur-Priest's tampering does not have any actual affect on the gods he draws power from.

Edit:

If by "usually", you mean "whenever he can", then you'd be right.

He even grants wishes 3 but only 1 per person. Usually there is a slight flaw to the wish.

:smallconfused: I've missed something here. Who's "he"? It doesn't seem obvious to me.

Ernir
2010-02-21, 05:00 PM
Savage Bard may work well for Ur-Priest but I prefer a more flavorful entry and build: Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3

Huh. That is the exact same build I wrote up a few weeks ago, in case I can find a DM who doesn't run away screaming at the mention of Ur-Priest. :smalltongue:

Still, nothing says that a Savage Bard/Ur-Priest can't be flavourful. For example, after reading this thread, I want a village shaman type who has gone baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 05:12 PM
Huh. That is the exact same build I wrote up a few weeks ago, in case I can find a DM who doesn't run away screaming at the mention of Ur-Priest. :smalltongue:

Still, nothing says that a Savage Bard/Ur-Priest can't be flavourful. For example, after reading this thread, I want a village shaman type who has gone baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

A traveling rogue performer, a loner. Always enters towns, strikes deals, uses his song and magic to further his ends, and particularly relishes a good "monkey's paw" scenario. He isn't above theft, though he finds it rather crass to pick the pockets of those already drowning in their cups. No challenge, and all. When things turn south, he leaves, on his own, and makes his way through the wilds to his next town. Eventually, he decides that man isn't a challenge any more. Even alert peasants can't see what he does, so he delves deeper. And he comes across a grand scheme... One that lets him steal from the gods themselves.

There's one example of a flavorful evil ur-priest bard.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-21, 05:15 PM
He even grants wishes 3 but only 1 per person. Usually there is a slight flaw to the wish.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 05:19 PM
He even grants wishes 3 but only 1 per person. Usually there is a slight flaw to the wish.

If by "usually", you mean "whenever he can", then you'd be right.

Flickerdart
2010-02-21, 06:12 PM
And if by slight you mean "you'd have been better off not wishing".

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 06:54 PM
And if by slight you mean "you'd have been better off not wishing".

And if by "you'd have been better off not wishing", you mean, "oh god, oh god, why does the water burn!?"

absolmorph
2010-02-21, 07:11 PM
In short: hope that he never, ever, comes within a thousand leagues of your village. Because if he does, it'll suck.

The Tygre
2010-02-22, 12:56 AM
I'd feel remiss if I didn't give out a fun little fact that someone actually pointed out on the WotC boards ages back:


http://www.donaldtyson.com/lavey.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cd_gallery/81359.jpg
Anton LaVey, Founder of the Church of Satan--Iconic Ur-Priest from Complete Divine

So much for no Satanism in D&D. :smallbiggrin: (Be honest, you'd be disappointed if anyone else had founded the Church of Satan.)

The connection between Keith Richards and Vecna remains debatable, though.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 01:18 AM
Savage Bard is pretty much a class that couldn't have been made more for Ur-Priest if you tried.

Let's look at Ur-Priest requirements and benefits.

Fort + 2, Will +2 (Savage Bard - Strong Fort and Will)

Skills: Bluff 6, Know (Arcana) 5, Know (Planes) 5, Know (Religion) 8, Spellcraft 8 (All class skills for savage bard, and Skills at 6+Int means you have enough skill points for all as a nonhuman with an 8 intelligence)
No Divine Casting/Must Be Evil (both are fulfilled).

Benefit: Other Arcane Caster levels stack with ur-priest for determining caster level. (Savage Bard has full CL advancement).

It's not overcomplicating things. It's simplifying. You qualify for Ur-Priest with savage bard, and nothing else, and easily. It's good for the same reason Master Specialist is a natural tie-in to Iot7V and Archmage.

Yeah, yeah. But a) it's UA material, which means it's already a variant, b) you're locked into being Chaotic Evil, which is kinda a pain.

Akal Saris
2010-02-22, 02:08 AM
Pity savage bard is cha-based rather than wis-based like Ur-priest though.

And that satanist picture creeps me out.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 02:33 AM
Pity savage bard is cha-based rather than wis-based like Ur-priest though.

And that satanist picture creeps me out.

Well, the way around that has already been mentioned, ie Tainted Scholar, which sets all your casting stats to corruption/depravity, which go off Con/Wis (and you don't really need to max out Con).

The problem is just that if you're a Tainted Scholar, you've already Won (TM). It makes Incantatrix look sucky.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-22, 02:35 AM
Yeah, yeah. But a) it's UA material, which means it's already a variant, b) you're locked into being Chaotic Evil, which is kinda a pain.
Class variants are used all the time. And you're not locked into Chaotic Evil. You're locked into evil, and you must stay chaotic to continue advancing bard.
Then, stealing spells from gods seems kinda chaotic to me. Seems like the Ur-Priest PrC would tend towards Chaotic anyway.


Pity savage bard is cha-based rather than wis-based like Ur-priest though.
I don't know of a single arcane class that is wisdom based. Charisma does provide synergy with Ur-Priest, as it boosts the Rebuke undead attempts, which can provide for better Divine Feat usage (I love DMM Still spell, personally. Combo it with the silent spell feat, and/or rods of silent spell, and you can deny people spellcraft checks to identify your casting.).

It provides more benefit than int, which is the other stat that arcane casting is based on.

Well, the way around that has already been mentioned, ie Tainted Scholar, which sets all your casting stats to corruption/depravity, which go off Con/Wis (and you don't really need to max out Con).

The problem is just that if you're a Tainted Scholar, you've already Won (TM). It makes Incantatrix look sucky.
Well, in fairness, I believe Tainted Scholar only does that for one class's casting stat. Otherwise, totally accurate.

Regardless, the focus isn't on those bard spells. It's on the Ur-priest side. Cha should be enough to get you through 5 levels. Wisdom should be the primary stat.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 02:53 AM
Class variants are used all the time. And you're not locked into Chaotic Evil. You're locked into evil, and you must stay chaotic to continue advancing bard.
Then, stealing spells from gods seems kinda chaotic to me. Seems like the Ur-Priest PrC would tend towards Chaotic anyway.

You're locked into being Chaotic Evil unless you change alignment (which is situational and teetering on bad RP if you just randomly do it), and you're locked into it anyway if you want to keep those arcane caster levels.


I don't know of a single arcane class that is wisdom based. Charisma does provide synergy with Ur-Priest, as it boosts the Rebuke undead attempts, which can provide for better Divine Feat usage (I love DMM Still spell, personally. Combo it with the silent spell feat, and/or rods of silent spell, and you can deny people spellcraft checks to identify your casting.).

It provides more benefit than int, which is the other stat that arcane casting is based on.

Int is useful, because you get skills from it. Ur-Priest doesn't have much in the way of skill points.


Well, in fairness, I believe Tainted Scholar only does that for one class's casting stat. Otherwise, totally accurate.

Oh, no. Tainted Scholar does it for EVERYTHING. It only advances one arcane class, but RAW it sets every single one of your casting stats to Corruption (for DCs) and Depravity (for bonus spells). It also makes all your arcane spells [Evil].

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-22, 02:59 AM
You're locked into being Chaotic Evil unless you change alignment (which is situational and teetering on bad RP if you just randomly do it), and you're locked into it anyway if you want to keep those arcane caster levels.
No, you keep the bard benefits if you stop being chaotic. You just can't progress further. (Source: SRD, Unearthed Arcana, Classes, Savage Bard)

That said, as I previously stated, I feel chaotic makes more sense than evil for ur-priests. It's fighting the natural order.

Chaotic and Ur-priest go together like peanut butter and jelly.


Int is useful, because you get skills from it. Ur-Priest doesn't have much in the way of skill points.Int is useful in that capacity, yes. However, beyond the standard benefits that any class would get, Ur-priest receives no additional synergy. The class does receive such synergy from Charisma.


Oh, no. Tainted Scholar does it for EVERYTHING. It only advances one arcane class, but RAW it sets every single one of your casting stats to Corruption (for DCs) and Depravity (for bonus spells). It also makes all your arcane spells [Evil].
Hm. I'll need to reread that when I get back to my Heroes of Horror. Not that it matters, as that class will never see the light of day.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 03:11 AM
No, you keep the bard benefits if you stop being chaotic. You just can't progress further. (Source: SRD, Unearthed Arcana, Classes, Savage Bard)

Right. I was confused.


That said, as I previously stated, I feel chaotic makes more sense than evil for ur-priests. It's fighting the natural order.

Not really. Stealing isn't always Chaotic (crime bosses are a classic example of LE) and an Ur-Priest has to be studious (which is a Lawful trait). The fact that they get dogpiled by deific pawns if found out also creates a selection pressure towards the Lawful ones surviving.

On the other hand, you're taking what's not yours to gain POWAH!!! UNLIMITED POWAH!!! *ahem* and that sounds pretty Evil to me.


Chaotic and Ur-priest go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Not entirely. The sample Ur-Priest is LE.


Int is useful in that capacity, yes. However, beyond the standard benefits that any class would get, Ur-priest receives no additional synergy. The class does receive such synergy from Charisma.

Ah. Then yes. But if you've got enough cheese to take Ur-Priest to start with, you can probably stack Nightsticks anyway. :smalltongue:


Hm. I'll need to reread that when I get back to my Heroes of Horror. Not that it matters, as that class will never see the light of day.

I'm AFB at the moment as well. But yes. Tainted Spellcasting just says "your spells". It specifies "your arcane spells" for the "becomes evil" thing, but RAW it applies to everything.

And indeed, it is not going to be allowed in anything other than TO and campaigns that play like an Exalted campaign.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-22, 03:47 AM
Not really. Stealing isn't always Chaotic (crime bosses are a classic example of LE) and an Ur-Priest has to be studious (which is a Lawful trait). The fact that they get dogpiled by deific pawns if found out also creates a selection pressure towards the Lawful ones surviving.Ur-Priests, however, strike me as a more loner type, than an "organized" type.

While study does tend towards order, that's not absolute either. In most campaign settings, deities are the source of power, order, often creation itself. Rebelling against order on its most basic level seems chaotic to me, though I'd say that there could be exceptions.


On the other hand, you're taking what's not yours to gain POWAH!!! UNLIMITED POWAH!!! *ahem* and that sounds pretty Evil to me.Taking what's not yours to begin with acknowledges the concept of ownership and rights, which implies a lack of order. It does also tend towards evil, but theft has as solid a claim on chaos as study does on order.


Not entirely. The sample Ur-Priest is LE.Don't even get me started on sample examples. Such things brought rise to Pelor, the Burning Hate.


Ah. Then yes. But if you've got enough cheese to take Ur-Priest to start with, you can probably stack Nightsticks anyway. :smalltongue:If you've got enough cheese to take ur-priest and DMM, I'd say you have quite enough already.

Xenogears
2010-02-22, 10:15 AM
Ur-Priests, however, strike me as a more loner type, than an "organized" type.

Ur-Priestdom was invented by the Vasharan according to BoVD. They are all born from Hate, Rape, and Evil. They hate authority and are only bound together by their desire to kill the gods. Yeah they seem pretty Chaotic to me (though it says any evil IIRC in their description...). Since they invented the method and you need an Ur-Priest to teach you to be an Ur-Priest there is a good chance one of them will be teaching you. So yeah. Chances are most Ur-Priests have a chaotic bent to them. By the Fluff.

2xMachina
2010-02-22, 10:19 AM
Sounds like the Sith's 1 Master 1 Apprentice line.

Ixil
2010-03-22, 08:30 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but I have a question... Ok, one of the requirements for the Ur-Priest is that "the character must have no ability to cast divine spells." But then it states that "if such a spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken"...

Does this mean that a divine spellcasting class must already not be able to cast such spells at the time to enter the PrC, or does it loose the spellcasting when it enters the PrC? So, if you're playing a Spirit Shaman, that gets divine spells but not from the Gods, how can you enter the PrC and what happens to its spells and other class abilities?

Thanks!

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-22, 08:53 PM
Does this mean that a divine spellcasting class must already not be able to cast such spells at the time to enter the PrC, or does it loose the spellcasting when it enters the PrC?

The latter; if you can cast divine spells, you give up doing so when you enter the class to fulfill the prereqs.


So, if you're playing a Spirit Shaman, that gets divine spells but not from the Gods, how can you enter the PrC and what happens to its spells and other class abilities?

Doesn't matter where you get your spells, if they're divine you lose them. A spirit shaman would keep all of its other abilities, just like a cleric would keep turn undead and a druid would keep its abilities, because only divine spellcasting is lost--though most likely becoming an ur-priest would permanently violate a cleric's or druid's code of conduct and cause them to lose the rest of it anyway.

Optimystik
2010-03-22, 11:48 PM
Sounds like the Sith's 1 Master 1 Apprentice line.

I too think this was heavy inspiration for the UP's flavor.

Akal Saris
2010-03-23, 12:05 AM
Personally, if I were to make an ur-priest for a game, I'd use the suggested alternative flavor that the ur-priest worships a dead deity and draws his power from the remnants of that power, and I'd make an ur-priest of Bhaal or Myrkul.

Hmm...ignoring the Wee-jas fluff, you could also go Crusader 6/Ur-priest 2/RVK 10/Crusader +2, with 9th level spells, BAB +19, and IL 19, along with a different way of breaking the action economy. Would make for a fun evil tank.

Ixil
2010-03-24, 06:24 PM
Would a Warlock4/Spirit Shaman1/Ur-Priest10/Hellfire Warlock3/something work well?

Da'Shain
2010-03-24, 06:38 PM
Random question, sorry to not be actually answering other people's, but don't know enough about CharOp to really comment on those builds.

But does the Ur-Priest from Complete Divine override the Ur-Priest from BoVD? In pretty much every respect they seem to be mirror images, except that BoVD requires Malign Spell Focus (+2 to saving throws for Evil spells) while CDiv requires Spell Focus Evil (+1 to saving throws for Evil spells). Obviously Malign seems strictly better and certainly not overpowered, and I'm considering asking my DM whether I can switch to that retroactively since I wasn't aware of the BoVD when I made my current character, but I'm concerned that there's some rule that newer write-ups trump old or something.

Also, does anyone know some good Evil spells, either for Clerics or Sor/Wiz? I'm considering taking Mindrape as one of my 9th level Sorc spells, but aside from that I don't see too many other good ones. Want to actually get some use out of that Spell Focus, which is otherwise kind of a waste.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-24, 07:12 PM
But does the Ur-Priest from Complete Divine override the Ur-Priest from BoVD? In pretty much every respect they seem to be mirror images, except that BoVD requires Malign Spell Focus (+2 to saving throws for Evil spells) while CDiv requires Spell Focus Evil (+1 to saving throws for Evil spells). Obviously Malign seems strictly better and certainly not overpowered, and I'm considering asking my DM whether I can switch to that retroactively since I wasn't aware of the BoVD when I made my current character, but I'm concerned that there's some rule that newer write-ups trump old or something.

BoVD is 3.0 and CDiv is 3.5, so the CDiv one technically overrides the BoVD one; the precedence rule is that 3.0 material holds iff it hasn't been updated to 3.5, and then the most recent book holds. I'd ask just in case, though, since it's a fairly reasonable request.


Also, does anyone know some good Evil spells, either for Clerics or Sor/Wiz? I'm considering taking Mindrape as one of my 9th level Sorc spells, but aside from that I don't see too many other good ones. Want to actually get some use out of that Spell Focus, which is otherwise kind of a waste.

Blasphemy is your friend.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-24, 09:20 PM
Blasphemy is your friend.

Unless your opponent has Divine Denial Blasphemy has no benefit from Spell Focus. If they do it kinda sucks.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-24, 09:30 PM
Unless your opponent has Divine Denial Blasphemy has no benefit from Spell Focus. If they do it kinda sucks.

Well, he asked for good [Evil] spells; yeah, he's not going to use Spell Focus on it, but it's still amazing anyway.

If you specifically want [Evil] cleric spells with saves, the necrotic cyst line (LM) is fairly good, wrack is nice (SpC), and I've found morality undone (BoVD) to be handy on occasion.

Da'Shain
2010-03-24, 10:34 PM
Ah. Didn't know BoVD was 3.0, thanks for clearing that up. Alright, so the newer write-up overwrites the old, but you're right, I should still ask my DM whether I can switch it out for Malign, as it's just straight up better. Considering the lack of really good evil spells (and the abysmally low save DCs for my cleric spells, at least -- Epic level game, and my WIS is only 19 as I'm pumping CHA), it's not in the slightest overpowered.

Sadly, Blasphemy is not my friend, at least not in this game, as my Ur-Priest CL is hovering at 19, I think, and the enemies I actually need some help on are essentially all 20 HD or more.

Ooh, Wrack actually looks like it could be really nice, especially if I combine it with Heighten. I'll have to see whether that would be worth swapping out another spell on my Sorc list, though, as again the Ur-Priest save DCs aren't the best.

deuxhero
2010-03-24, 11:02 PM
Yeah, Bard probably works better.

If you believe the Sample character: you don't need 17th caster level to use 9th level spells.

Remember that we have sample characters that can take "heavy armor proficiency" with the prerequisites, worship Saint Cuthbert and take a class only for Wee Jas worshipers and other fun stuff.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-24, 11:05 PM
Remember that we have sample characters that can take "heavy armor proficiency" with the prerequisites, worship Saint Cuthbert and take a class only for Wee Jas worshipers and other fun stuff.

But in this case, the obvious interpretation is that they do, in fact, get 9ths at level 9 of the PrC.

Ixil
2010-03-25, 05:13 AM
Would a Warlock4/Spirit Shaman1/Ur-Priest10/Hellfire Warlock3/something work well?

Sorry to quote myself, but a small opinion would still be appreciated... By the way, the stats for the character are Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14...

magic9mushroom
2010-03-25, 05:20 AM
Sorry to quote myself, but a small opinion would still be appreciated... By the way, the stats for the character are Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14...

Eh, there isn't much WRONG with it (you can't really have a weak build with full Ur-Priest casting), but Ur-Priest is generally better dual-progressed (or otherwise progressed by another PrC) unless you're desperate for the capstone. Eldritch Disciple seems obvious in this case.

Optimystik
2010-03-25, 06:04 AM
Sorry to quote myself, but a small opinion would still be appreciated... By the way, the stats for the character are Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14...

Agreed with m9m, you should be using Eldritch Disciple instead. And if you're going Hellfire Warlock, Binder 1 is a much better dip than Spirit Shaman 1 for the fort save - you get to bind Naberius, who can heal your Con damage.

Ur-Priest's class features are worth giving up for those of the ED, and Greater/Dark Invocations are definitely useful. You'll need a lot more Wisdom though, if you want 9ths.

(I'm getting deja vu, didn't you have another thread asking about this build?)

Ixil
2010-03-25, 07:57 AM
Agreed with m9m, you should be using Eldritch Disciple instead. And if you're going Hellfire Warlock, Binder 1 is a much better dip than Spirit Shaman 1 for the fort save - you get to bind Naberius, who can heal your Con damage.

Ur-Priest's class features are worth giving up for those of the ED, and Greater/Dark Invocations are definitely useful. You'll need a lot more Wisdom though, if you want 9ths.

(I'm getting deja vu, didn't you have another thread asking about this build?)

Nice eye, I have indeed another thread where I metioned this build, but I posted on that other thread by mistake...

As for Eldritch Disciple, I thought of that, but knowing my DM as I do, I bet that he wouldn't let me use the ED abilities since they're given by a "patron deity"... It gets to be kinda picky with that kind of stuf... :smallannoyed:

As for the Wisdom stat... Well, in another party, our cleric started with Charisma 14, and at 15th level he had boosted it to almost 30... Don't ask me how, but you can bet your *ss I'm gonna have a little chat for advice with him... :smallwink:

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 08:07 AM
Well as I read it there is one major downside of playing an ur priest in Faerun atleast^^

Kelemvor won´t let your soul leave the wall of the faithless, so if you die you are dead for good (except for an epic crusade against the wall)

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 08:34 AM
Well as I read it there is one major downside of playing an ur priest in Faerun atleast^^

Kelemvor won´t let your soul leave the wall of the faithless, so if you die you are dead for good (except for an epic crusade against the wall)

I tore the damn wall down, screw canon. So no such worries :smallbiggrin: Besides, Kelemvor is a pansy.

Ixil
2010-03-25, 08:42 AM
I tore the damn wall down, screw canon. So no such worries :smallbiggrin: Besides, Kelemvor is a pansy.

As the other dude in TV says, "Hope is for sissies"... :smallbiggrin:

Now, for what I remember, when the character dies it goes for the afterlife, but not immediately for the City of the Dead... I think I read... somewhere... that in Forgotten Realms, you die, spend couple of days waiting with the rest of the dead dudes, and then you're taken to your final resting place... the wall, in said case...

Besides, until proof against it, my character is immortal... :smallsmile:

Oh, and I'm planning on RP my Ur-Priest so that he's trying to bring Myrkul back to godhood (see the Adaptation in Ur-Priest), so s*rew Kelemvor! :roach:

2xMachina
2010-03-25, 09:21 AM
Ur priest capstone.

Planeshift to Sigil.

Hello Lady of Pain. I too have the ability, Die, no save.

Optimystik
2010-03-25, 09:30 AM
As for Eldritch Disciple, I thought of that, but knowing my DM as I do, I bet that he wouldn't let me use the ED abilities since they're given by a "patron deity"... It gets to be kinda picky with that kind of stuf... :smallannoyed:

Show him the Adaptation:


Adaptation: This prestige class is written to describe characters who steal divine power from the gods and use it for themselves. Its also a good choice, however, for ex-clerics of gods who've somehow lost their connection to their deity (because the deity died, disappeared, or faded from existence because he had too few worshipers). Secret societies of ur-priests could exist for the express purpose of elevating (or reelevating) someone or something to godhood.

Dead deities are fair game, just use one of those to qualify for both ED and UP.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-25, 09:32 AM
Sorry to quote myself, but a small opinion would still be appreciated... By the way, the stats for the character are Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14...

You'd be better off switching the Dex and Wis.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-25, 11:18 AM
Ur priest capstone.

Planeshift to Sigil.

Hello Lady of Pain. I too have the ability, Die, no save.

Unfortunately, that's not a (Sp) ability, it's a (Pp) ability: Plot-Powered. Much more useful than Spell-like. :smallwink:

deuxhero
2010-03-25, 01:45 PM
Ur priest capstone.

Planeshift to Sigil.

Hello Lady of Pain. I too have the ability, Die, no save.

Too bad The Lady "'always" goes first, she flays you before you can use it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:53 PM
Too bad The Lady "'always" goes first, she flays you before you can use it.

He is right you know...

The Lady cannot die, for she has no stats ;3