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Kobold-Bard
2010-02-20, 04:52 PM
I've seen this mentioned several times, especially during Optimization discussions. May I ask what it is and where it is from?

Thanks

K-B

The Glyphstone
2010-02-20, 04:54 PM
It's a combo of two spells from the Fiendish Codex 1.

1: Use the spell Embrace the Dark Chaos to trade any feat you have for an Abyssal Heritor feat.
2: Use the spell Shun The Dark Chaos to trade any Abyssal Heritor feat you have for any feat you qualify for.
3: ???
4: Profit!

arguskos
2010-02-20, 04:55 PM
Ideally performed as an Elf, trading all your racial proficiencies for real feats that matter, though that's some shaky interpretations of the rules

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-20, 04:57 PM
It's a combo of two spells from the Fiendish Codex 1.

1: Use the spell Embrace the Dark Chaos to trade any feat you have for an Abyssal Heritor feat.
2: Use the spell Shun The Dark Chaos to trade any Abyssal Heritor feat you have for any feat you qualify for.
3: ???
4: Profit!

Hmmm. This seems fairly powerful, does it have a function beyond allowing unnecessary powerbuilding.


Ideally performed as an Elf, trading all your racial proficiencies for real feats that matter, though that's some shaky interpretations of the rules

Ahh, the Neverwinter Nights school of char-gen: Everything is a Feat. EVERYTHING...

faceroll
2010-02-20, 04:58 PM
Ideally performed as an Elf, trading all your racial proficiencies for real feats that matter, though that's some shaky interpretations of the rules

It's not shaky rules interpretations at all. The Chaos Shuffle is on rock solid RAW. It's cheesy as all hell, but there's no question of whether or not it works, by the rules.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-20, 04:59 PM
Indeed. Elven racial proficiencies are explicitly called out as being feats, unlike, say, Fighter class proficiencies, so it works.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-20, 04:59 PM
It's not shaky rules interpretations at all. The Chaos Shuffle is on rock solid RAW. It's cheesy as all hell, but there's no question of whether or not it works, by the rules.

I think he meant the Racial Proficiencies rather than the Shuffling.

NINJAS!!! They're everywhere these days.

Thurbane
2010-02-20, 05:30 PM
BTW, this is one of those things that depends on the DM letting the players walk all over him to be effective. No DM I've ever played under would let this fly. Maybe in a "less than serious" or comedy game...

arguskos
2010-02-20, 05:39 PM
Indeed. Elven racial proficiencies are explicitly called out as being feats, unlike, say, Fighter class proficiencies, so it works.
I thought the wording was sorta unclear, something such as "Elves are proficient in X, Y, and Z." not, "Elves have the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for X, Y, and Z." The former isn't strictly the latter, or so I thought.

As for the trick itself, yes, of course it works fine. I was only saying the shaky bit was for racial proficiencies, since I wasn't sure you actually were given bonus feats.

EDIT: Ah, the SRD is much clearer, and calls out the feats specifically. Ok, that's good then.

Eldan
2010-02-20, 05:48 PM
Even without elven proficiencies, you can use it to trade your feats for epic feats, or those of the highest levels, which is quite unbalanced.

Overshee
2010-02-20, 05:54 PM
How much would it cost to get a mage to do it for you?

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-20, 05:57 PM
How much would it cost to get a mage to do it for you?

Looked em up. Both 8th level spells with a 250XP Cost each. Too lazy to look up the prices.

NPC Mage = 1200gp each + XP Costs + Scroll costs (3000gp).

CTLC
2010-02-20, 05:59 PM
cant you also retrain simple weapon proficiency?

Greenish
2010-02-20, 06:05 PM
cant you also retrain simple weapon proficiency?If you took it as a feat, yes. If you got it from a class, no. If you got it from a race, it depends on wether it's said to be a feat in the description (it won't).

Also, 8th level spell with 250 exp cost would be 2450 gp to be cast by NPC caster, more if you want a scroll.

[Edit]: Seplilng fial.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-20, 06:08 PM
...Also, 8th level spell with 250 exp cost would be 2450 gp to by cast be NPC caster, more if you want a scroll.

Thanks, my calculations shall begin.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 05:30 AM
I've seen this mentioned several times, especially during Optimization discussions. May I ask what it is and where it is from?

Thanks

K-B

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss.

Shuffles any feat into any other feat.

Best done with some method of mitigating XP costs (*cough*Dweomerkeeper*cough*Thought Bottle*cough*Efreeti wishes*cough*).

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-21, 05:33 AM
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss.

Shuffles any feat into any other feat.

Best done with some method of mitigating XP costs (*cough*Dweomerkeeper*cough*Thought Bottle*cough*Efreeti wishes*cough*).

Dweomerkeeper?
Thought Bottle?
:smallconfused:

Eloel
2010-02-21, 05:41 AM
Thought Bottle?
:smallconfused:

Thought bottle is an item that 'saves' your current XP. If you re-use the bottle, you go back to the xp where you saved it.
It's actually for level drains, death level-losses and stuff, but as all things, has been abused by optimization.
You save, spend a bunch of xp on crafting, you use the bottle, ta-daa, your xp is back.

Runestar
2010-02-21, 05:43 AM
Dweomerkeeper?
Thought Bottle?
:smallconfused:

You are better off not knowing. :smalleek:

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-21, 05:48 AM
Thought bottle is an item that 'saves' your current XP. If you re-use the bottle, you go back to the xp where you saved it.
It's actually for level drains, death level-losses and stuff, but as all things, has been abused by optimization.
You save, spend a bunch of xp on crafting, you use the bottle, ta-daa, your xp is back.

Holy mother of crap. So you can spend 500XP, then go on a crafting binge, and then all of a sudden you're back to where you were? The people just didn't think when they wrote some of this stuff did they.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 06:06 AM
Dweomerkeeper?
Thought Bottle?
:smallconfused:

Dweomerkeeper gets an ability (starts at 4th level as 1/day, increases every two levels to end at 4/day at 10th level) that allows you to convert a spell into a supernatural ability. This removes all components of the spell. Including non-trivial material components and XP costs. Dweomerkeeper is considered the best PrC in existence for Clerics largely for that reason (it also has the same capstone as Incantatrix, so have fun with metamagic).


Holy mother of crap. So you can spend 500XP, then go on a crafting binge, and then all of a sudden you're back to where you were? The people just didn't think when they wrote some of this stuff did they.

Precisely.

Radar
2010-02-21, 09:39 AM
If you took it as a feat, yes. If you got it from a class, no. If you got it from a race, it depends on wether it's said to be a feat in the description (it won't).

Also, 8th level spell with 250 exp cost would be 2450 gp to be cast by NPC caster, more if you want a scroll.

[Edit]: Seplilng fial.
So taking, let's say, Otyugh Hole into account, it's 8500 gp (two spells + Hole's entrance fee) for a feat. :smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-21, 09:49 AM
So taking, let's say, Otyugh Hole into account, it's 8500 gp (two spells + Hole's entrance fee) for a feat. :smallbiggrin:

Actually I remember seeing a thread about getting as many Feats as possible. Get to Level 21, buy a Thought Bottle and all of a sudden you have about 30 Epic Feats. Hmmm....:smallcool:

Lamech
2010-02-21, 10:28 AM
So taking, let's say, Otyugh Hole into account, it's 8500 gp (two spells + Hole's entrance fee) for a feat. :smallbiggrin:

Touchstone feats give you feats. Which can be traded and then you still have the touchstone.