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KingVic
2010-02-20, 11:44 PM
Me and my friends are deciding to make a 2 man game. There's going to be 1 DM and 2 players (me and my friend). I'm a wizard and my friend is a halfling rogue. Our plan is to do as much damage as possible to kill our enemies as fast as possible before we die.

Now I was wondering if you guys had any build ideas to make our group effective?
btw were all starting level 1 and were playing D&D 3.5. Also. were only allowed to use the core books (PH, DMG and MM).

Tanaric
2010-02-20, 11:47 PM
Color Spray and coup de grace.

Do you have any more details available other than wizard and rogue? Races, school specialization, if any? Does your DM favor a certain type of enemy (i.e., humans or the like) or does he send a variety after you?

Do you know what method your stats are going to be generated by? Point buy, die rolling?

KingVic
2010-02-20, 11:51 PM
Well im either a human or an elf and I'm a generalist wizard. I havent played with this DM too much but im sure he'll start us off with humanoids like goblins and kobolds and the occasional monster. Then again, I'm not too sure and Im trying to be ready for everything.

My stats are already done, they are: 10,12,11,10,13,16 (they were rolled and are not yet applied to any stats)
and on a side note my friends rogue is already done but I cant see his char now.

Tanaric
2010-02-21, 12:09 AM
Unless you want to crank out the crossbow after two spells, I'd strongly suggest specializing then. 1 spell + 1 bonus spell simply won't cut it.

Barring Enchantment and Necromancy won't lose you anything of note until much higher levels. I don't usually say this, but given the low level and small party size, Evocation might not actually be so terrible, and is worth keeping.

Specializing in Conjuration will get you an extra slot to cast Mage Armor to keep yourself alive, but specializing in Illusion will get you an extra Color Spray. Color Spray is an instant battle-ender at that level. A conjuration specialist could make use of Grease for a similar effect, allowing the rogue to sneak attack anything caught in it. Specializing in Evocation (don't smite me, forum-goers!) is far from optimal, but will get you extra castings of things such as Scorching Ray and the like, albeit it only at higher levels, which help with the "More Dakka" deal you've got going on.

Since you said, essentially, that you were prioritizing offense over defense, I'll spare you the usual rub about blasting being suboptimal and Glitterdust et al being the way to go.

Obviously, put the 16 in Int. 13 goes into Dex or Con, your choice. The 12 goes into the other. 11 for Wisdom, 10 for charisma, 10 for strength.

Make sure you have a scythe if going the Color Spray route. Buy a crossbow for when you run out of spells.

Given the mediocre stats, I'd advise against taking a Con hit from playing an Elf. The bonus feat from playing a Human is more than worthwhile, though what exactly you should take varies based on how you intend to play it.

Soranar
2010-02-21, 12:15 AM
EDIT: core only and you roll your stats...

gl, have fun, and I wish your characters a swift death

a rogue is a terrible choice for a 2 man party (a tank is not really optional at early levels with only 2 party members, 1 bad crit, or just maximum damage, and bye bye)

and if you ever see a ghast, run !

without ACF, your rogue is basically useless against undead, and so are half of your spells (which you really won't have many of)

the crossbow advice isn't bad, keep a loaded heavy crossbow handy for distance damage that doesn't require much skill, drop it instead of recharging and switch to a melee option afterwards

if you're lucky you'll kill something without being fed an arrow (1d6 damage can actually kill your mage...)

Tanaric
2010-02-21, 12:16 AM
Unfortunately, they're limited to core. Were that not so, my advice would be vastly different.

Splendor
2010-02-21, 12:50 AM
As soon as you hit 3rd level takea reserve feat Firey burst/Acidic splatter so you can always inflict damage.

1st level feats
Precocious Apprentice (Complete arcane pg 181) allows you to cast a 2nd level spell if you make a DC 8 caster level check (at 1st level) and when you hit 3rd this turns into an additional 2nd level spell slot. +2 spellcraft

Collegiate Wizard (Complete arcane pg 181) 6+INT spells at 1st level, and gives 4 spells per level to add to your spell book instead of 2. +2 Knowledge Arcane

Eschew Materials (PH94) if you DM is an ass like mine, this keeps him from stealing/sundering your component pouch. Also is considered a metamagic feat in one of the errata's I think.

Able learner (Races of Destiny pg 150) cross class skills can be bought at a rate of 1:1 instead of 2:1. Max ranks in cross class are as normal. - HUMAN ONLY

Any of the Abyssal Heritor Feats if your allowed to take them (fendish codex 1)

Alternative Class features for a wizard (dragon mag 357)

Eidetic Spellcaster - You do not need a spellbook, either to prepare spells or record new ones. You gain/learn new spells normally otherwise, including paying the appropriate gold pieces (for special incenses) when acquiring new spells that aren't from gaining a level. - Lose familiar and scribe scroll

Impromptu Metamagic - Each day you choose a metamagic feat you have. A number of times per day equal to (5 - the spell level increase of the feat) you may spontaneously apply that feat to a spell as you cast it, with no increase in casting time or spell level. You must still have the ability to cast spells of the level the spell would have if the feat were applied to it normally.
- Lose familiar

Soranar
2010-02-21, 12:53 AM
As soon as you hit 3rd level takea reserve feat Firey burst/Acidic splatter so you can always inflict damage.

1st level feats
Precocious Apprentice (Complete arcane pg 181) allows you to cast a 2nd level spell if you make a DC 8 caster level check (at 1st level) and when you hit 3rd this turns into an additional 2nd level spell slot. +2 spellcraft

Collegiate Wizard (Complete arcane pg 181) 6+INT spells at 1st level, and gives 4 spells per level to add to your spell book instead of 2. +2 Knowledge Arcane

Eschew Materials (PH94) if you DM is an ass like mine, this keeps him from stealing/sundering your component pouch. Also is considered a metamagic feat in one of the errata's I think.

Able learner (Races of Destiny pg 150) cross class skills can be bought at a rate of 1:1 instead of 2:1. Max ranks in cross class are as normal. - HUMAN ONLY

Any of the Abyssal Heritor Feats if your allowed to take them (fendish codex 1)

Alternative Class features for a wizard (dragon mag 357)

core only...

Splendor
2010-02-21, 01:00 AM
I've seen 2 descriptions of core:
1) Wizards of the coast 3.5 non-setting specific
2) PHB/DMG/MM.

I tend to think when people say core that mean non-setting, and only official wizard of the coast books. No eberron, no forgotten realms, no pathfinder.

--however, your right, he did specify in his first statement what he meant by Core.

Harperfan7
2010-02-21, 02:24 AM
Tanarics second post is solid, and I'd get Improved Initiative.

Actually, you might consider playing a halfling. Your AC will go up by two, you can sneak with some reliability (so you and you're buddy can both sneak). If you use throwing weapons, your attack bonus will be 3 higher than if you were a human.

You might put ranks in handle animal and buy riding dogs trained to fight. You may want to hire mercenaries to guard you.

This is very unorthodox, but you might want to wear the heaviest armor you can get, use a greatsword, and pack on the True Strikes + Charging. Even with +0 Strength you'll do an average of 7 damage and your AC will be respectable.

If you get a toad familiar and take toughness, you're chances of making it to 2nd level will greatly improve, but from then on out you will suffer (I wouldn't do it, but its an option).

BobVosh
2010-02-21, 03:05 AM
I know you said core only, but gestalt was literally made for parties of too few people. Rules are on D20 srd. Basically you chose two classes, and you get the better of the two features if they give the same thing (HD, skills, etc). Will help prevent the large number of TPKs I imagine from this set up.

KingVic
2010-02-21, 08:02 PM
Well I'm still making my character but I've decided to be either a human, dwarf or gnome (the +2 con looks handy) now i just need to decide which feat I'm going to take. I've decided to stay a generalist wizard but I've been considering starting/multiclassing cleric to become mystic theurge. Any suggestions?

btw my DM said he does NOT allow gestalt and that he will adapt his campaign for 2 players.

Soranar
2010-02-21, 08:30 PM
I recommend gnome (since stronheart halfling isn't allowed)

+2 Con, +1 to AC from size and +1 to hit too (-2 STR shouldn't affect you since you use a crossbow)

the bonus to move and hide would also help (from being small)

I would recommend straight cleric instead, ,much better hitpoints and the domains should fix your spellcasting, don't bother with mystic Theurge, it's a trap

Eldariel
2010-02-21, 08:38 PM
Mystic Theurge in core is a bad idea if you are a two-man party. You really, really need to be at your best in such a game, and a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is two spell-levels behind a single-classed character of either class. That means you utterly just lack the top-level spells you'd be expected to be using for the harder encounters.

If healing is what you want, you'll want Use Magic Device for the Rogue and buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds. That should get you by. Until then, a hireling Cleric seems like a good idea. 'cause you will need healing before the level is over and a hireling Cleric is much cheaper than Potions.

Later on, you can take Loremaster, which gets you UMD too. And if you're starting at level 1, I strongly suggest specialization. And Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) from Monster Manual as your race. Why? Well, see, normally you're stuck with two 1st level slots per day on level 1. That's...gonna vastly limit your ability to contribute. Gray Elf can get 20 Intelligence (and Dex for AC and Initiative, and most importantly, Hide & Move Silently). That gets you a 3rd level 1 slot, which is an absolute lifesaver. Then, specialization gets you a 4th level 1 slot, which means you actually have some endurance.

This gives you some endurance. Since your level 1 spells are all capable of ending encounters single-handedly (Color Spray, Sleep, and yeah, Grease is nice tho not quite as strong; still awesome with Rogue since people balancing are flat-footed - also, Ray of Enfeeblement can be decent), this gives you lots of firepower. Also, being an Elf gives you Longbow-proficiency, which given ~8-10 Str is gonna be an excellent weapon on levels 1-3 at least.

I strongly suggest you both invest in Hide & Move Silently and try to use stealth as much as possible to survive on level 1. Life is gonna be very hard if you fight things head-on, especially in a party without any real warriors. You could also try to purchase a Riding Dog or similar out of your common account (if either of you has Handle Animal) to use as a tank early on; they're incredibly respectable combatants on level 1, and have stealth capabilities too. Though they're a bit expensive for level 1 wealth.


If you indeed do specialize, I suggest banning Enchantment and Evocation, or Enchantment and Necromancy. Enchantment is the most expendable school (you can make do with Color Spray as your primary SoD effect; it's generally more combat-usable due to being Standard Action as opposed to 1 Round to cast) and then you can afford to give up one of the offensive schools since the other has all you need.

I personally prefer giving up Evocation (Contingency coming late sucks tho), since False Life is such a lifesaver early on and Necromancy offers more versatile attack suite.


Abbreviation:
- You can get a healing hireling early on and use Use Magic Device + Wands in couple of levels once you afford the Wand.
- You should probably make heavy use of stealth. High Dex helps.
- Mystic Theurge will most likely result in your death since your abilities don't increase with CR and having to make do with Wizard 3-abilities until level 7 will be tough.
- You really, really want to maximize the number of spells per day you have available on level 1. Also, their impact. The higher your Int, the more likely opponents will be cold.
- You could consider buying e.g. Riding Dog for a frontliner.
- Color Spray/Sleep/Grease/Ray of Enfeeblement are your more impressive level 1 spells. Ray is quite poor against masses too, so mostly the first 3.
- Specialization is a doable idea and you could probably afford to give up Enchantment and either Evocation or Necromancy.
- You may even want to consider some armor on level 1.
- Gray Elf [Monster Manual] is the only LAless Int-boost race in Core and thus your only way to extra spell slot and save DCs. Give it solid consideration; it'd really help your endurance.


EDIT: Yeah, and feats? Improved Initiative for both is a fine idea, as is Spell Focus: Conjuration (for you; Grease is nice, but this truly shines with level 2 spells as Glitterdust and Web come into play - then level 3 and Stinking Cloud and so on, it remains awesome) and PBS going for Rapid Shot (for him). Other Spell Foci are decent options for you too, and you'll eventually want Extend Spell (but it isn't useful yet). He could consider TWF-feats, but probably better not go into melee at all.

Oh yeah, you'll want to pick up some Craft-feats probably. Craft Wondrous Items seems best, though you'd have use for Craft Wands and Craft Rods too. And he'd appreciate Craft Magic Arms & Armor. Don't overload; just Wondrous Items is prolly enough. Saving that much money on equipment definitely helps tho. And if possible, take Leadership on 6 for both. That'll help you out a lot. Also, you should consider Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) [DMG] on level 9; Imp, Quasit and Pseudodragon are all fairly good. Especially the two formers, getting you free Communes and being great UMD machines (once you enter Loremaster).

Oh yeah, and you probably want to go for Loremaster as it's painless to enter (you get bonus feat from it so the prerequisite is NP) and has nice abilities and...works well for most Wizards. And eventually Archmage. Oh, and Quicken Spell is prolly a good option on level 12 to double your actions. But survive first three levels first. Think that more later


Tactically, you definitely should skirmish as much as possible; you lack the muscle to go head-on with anything so shoot-pull-shoot patterns are more efficient; avoiding melee altogether should be a rather high priority. Make do with Knowledges off your Int-scores mostly (take 1 point so you can make trained checks and max out Arcane tho), which saves you points for Hide, Move Silently & Tumble.

Oh, and if possible (weight limitation-wise; you don't want to go over Light Load - but no armor should mean you can afford it with average Str), carry a Scythe around for Coup de Gracing stunned opponents.

KingVic
2010-02-22, 05:55 PM
Ok it seems I managed to convince a new player to join. He's going to play a monk. Now, I managed to convince my DM to let me use standard point buy. Whats should my stats be? Also, I'm not sure if I should be sorcerer to better survive the lower levels.

Soranar
2010-02-22, 06:16 PM
Definitely wizard.You'll gain access to more spells, and Int let's you get more skills while Charisma won't do much of anything.

Typical caster stats are as follows.

(assuming 32 pts buy)

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 8

Assuming a human. The extra feat helps a lot. Elves aren't very good (Con -2 is terrible). Halflings give you more AC (+2 Dex, +1 size) and more to hit with your light crossbow (+1 from size, +1 from Dex). Gnomes are also good (+1 illusion DC, +2 Con).

KingVic
2010-02-22, 06:18 PM
I'm using 25 point buy( standard)

Artemiz
2010-02-22, 07:41 PM
I'm using 25 point buy( standard)

25 point buy standard? Interesting, you normally hear 24 or 28...

Nonetheless, for a Wizard, I would go with the following:

Str - 8
Dex - 14
Con - 10
Int - 18
Wis - 8
Cha - 8

You could also toy with the Dex and Con a bit, leaning towards more Dex and less Con, if you'd like. Hopefully, your new monk will take some of the damage for you and you won't really need the Con. Also, the above leaves a point spare, which I would put into Wis or Con.

If you're looking for a good point-buy calculator for 3.5, this is what I use: http://www.hackslash.net/?p=73

Soranar
2010-02-22, 09:37 PM
I'm using 25 point buy( standard)

25pts? buying an 18 is too expensive for you then (16 pts for a single stat, even your main one, is too much)

STR 8
DEX 14 (6pts)
CON 14 (6pts)
INT 17 (13 pts)
WIS 8
CHA 8

you're still focused on Int, but you get the most for your money

KingVic
2010-02-23, 05:05 PM
Well I'm going to make my character. I'll see you guys in a few levels and I'll see if things work out.

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 05:17 PM
25pb seems horribly low for too small a party where characters need to fill multiple roles efficiently. Well, yeah, 14/14/17 seems like a good mix.

Monk...uhh, yeah, good luck. Monk on 25pb is just...eww. Like, you get 14 Wis, 14 Dex, 14 Str, 14 Con and one point leftover. 8 Int kinda sucks on a skillmonkey and 14 Str kinda sucks on a melee warrior and 14 AC kinda sucks on a frontliner and 10 HP total kinda sucks on a frontliner. Gawd.

Artemiz
2010-02-23, 06:03 PM
25pb seems horribly low for too small a party where characters need to fill multiple roles efficiently. Well, yeah, 14/14/17 seems like a good mix.

Monk...uhh, yeah, good luck. Monk on 25pb is just...eww. Like, you get 14 Wis, 14 Dex, 14 Str, 14 Con and one point leftover. 8 Int kinda sucks on a skillmonkey and 14 Str kinda sucks on a melee warrior and 14 AC kinda sucks on a frontliner and 10 HP total kinda sucks on a frontliner. Gawd.

He's right. Considering wizards and rogues certainly won't be up front, the monk's gotta take the job (whether he likes it or not). With 25 points, he's either going to be dieing or near-useless.