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View Full Version : [3.5] Quick and Dirty Spellcaster 'Fix'



Cuaqchi
2010-02-21, 12:24 AM
I was wondering what people think of a minor change to help remove one of the many benefits casters have over martial classes. That of SAD rather than MAD stat requirements.

Use the character's Charisma mod for all saving throws, as it is supposed to represent the characters force of will and force of personality. This won't effect Sorcerers or Favoured Souls that are already considered somewhat weaker but it will make it so that spells that do require a saving throw aren't so overly powerful as to ensure success.

If this would work it would also give some love to the oft' ignored 6th stat, creating a more balanced stat array however meaningless that actually is.

FishAreWet
2010-02-21, 12:26 AM
One of the major strengths of casting is that the best abilities don't even requires saves.

Godskook
2010-02-21, 12:27 AM
Doesn't change enough, and at the same time, is too 'dirty'. CoDzillas are buffers, so save DCs don't matter to them. Wizards can simply turn to non-DC abilities as well. Although Malconvokers would become even *MORE* powerful than they are now.

Also, how would this affect Archivists?

Cuaqchi
2010-02-21, 12:29 AM
But there are plenty of Save or Suck/Save or Dies that would then require a secondary stat. Examples include;

Level 1 - Sleep, Grease (Sort Of), Reduce Person (Sort Of)
Level 2 - Glitterdust
Level 3 - Slow
Level 4 - Phantasmal Killer (Save and Save or Die)
Level 5 - Baleful Polymorph
etc...

I realize it wouldn't hurt buffers, but Clerics that use Turn Undead be it for DMM or whatever won't utterly trash Cha. Druids that take advantage of Handle Animal may like a small bump. Never played an Archivist so can't comment there...

Godskook
2010-02-21, 12:38 AM
Level 1 - Sleep, Grease (Sort Of), Reduce Person (Sort Of)
Level 2 - Glitterdust
Level 3 - Slow
Level 4 - Phantasmal Killer (Save and Save or Die)
Level 5 - Baleful Polymorph
etc...

But these aren't the worst offenders. Gate, Mindrape, the Chaos Shuffle spells used on one's self, craft contingent spell, celerity, time stop are more what you have to really worry about. And none of them offer saves to the opponent, mostly because you're not targeting him.


(Also, how dare you even suggest a nerf for phantasmal killer! The poor spell needs some loving.)

FishAreWet
2010-02-21, 12:41 AM
DMM Clerics don't dump Cha. It fuels DMM.

Cuaqchi
2010-02-21, 12:43 AM
Given that Phantasmal Killer shows up a full level before any other true SoD I don't see how it can be considered weak. As the caster you only have to worry about the Will Save being passed which most fighter types suck at, and when they reach the Fort Save one ****ty roll and they go kaput.

Godskook
2010-02-21, 01:00 AM
Given that Phantasmal Killer shows up a full level before any other true SoD I don't see how it can be considered weak. As the caster you only have to worry about the Will Save being passed which most fighter types suck at, and when they reach the Fort Save one ****ty roll and they go kaput.

1.You mean 2 levels after the SoDs start. Glitterdust is more dangerous to a good-fort class than phantasmal killer is. Grease is even better, a level earlier, and has the advantage of being re-occuring.

2.That's 2 saves. That doubles the odds of them getting a nat-20 to make the spell do nothing useful without upping the threat compared to single-save spells.

3.By targeting two *different* saves, this boosts the odds that whomever you target with the spell is going to have a good save against one of the effects, and like I said, making either save is all anyone really needs. Also, Fort and Will are the 'big' saves, since the BBEG will probably have a really good will save and his right-hand man will probably have a pretty good fort-save. The name of the game is targeting each enemy's weak save, and phantasmal killer has a hard time doing that since only classes with just a good reflex save meet that criteria.

And no, 3d6 is not 'something' for a L5 spell. By that point, you could be lobbing no-save orbs doing 9d6 damage on a touch attack with a save against an *additional* effect(like Daze) out of a L4 spell slot.

Cuaqchi
2010-02-21, 01:10 AM
So find a differant example for a Level 4 spell (Personally the Core options all seem rather bland). You already mentioned two other spells I referanced and I didn't even bother with spells beyond 5th level because everyone will find a way to mess with any simple system by that point.

The other quick fix I have thought of is to reintroduce AD&D's spell memorization method. It takes 1 Hour / Spell Level of Memorization to prepare, as a result there is no Extend[ed] Rope Trick[ing] or the like to wade through every encounter at a liesurely pace.

sonofzeal
2010-02-21, 01:13 AM
I've seen one houserule that made DC based off Cha, bonus spells based off Int, and max spell level based off Wis. Got some good positive feedback, and I think it's a nice balancing agent. Only downside is it removes one of the main distinctions between different casters, but that too helps simplify things.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-21, 01:14 AM
Wizard's and sorcs should use the universal dump stat, STR, as their save DC.