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magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 05:52 AM
Ok, I've looked over it and compared it to Psion.

Now, why are people saying that without Convert Spell to Power it's weaker than Psion? It gets more feats than a Psion, gets more powers known for free than the Psion gets total (with an 18 Int at start they have 44 powers known compared to the Psion's 36), have an identical amount of power points, and get access to not just one discipline, but ALL disciplines (albeit with an XP cost, but you'll cherrypick, and it's not like the Psion gets too many picks either).

So why are people saying it's between Psion and Wilder in power?

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-21, 06:00 AM
At Level 1 Erudite can only use 1 Power/day. So if you pick a buff you become a Commoner with a good will save for the rest of the day. It gets better as you go up levels, but still every time you use a Power you become a sort of mediocre Sorcerer, severely limited in what Powers you have available.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 06:15 AM
At Level 1 Erudite can only use 1 Power/day. So if you pick a buff you become a Commoner with a good will save for the rest of the day.

No, because you can cast that buff N more times, where N is your number of power points.

I will admit that Erudite has problems with number of spells at low levels, but at least the Erudite can pick their powers anew every day. The Psion... can't.


It gets better as you go up levels, but still every time you use a Power you become a sort of mediocre Sorcerer, severely limited in what Powers you have available.

Since UPD is RAW per power level, it becomes a complete joke after about level 10 or so.

And even before that, it's like a Wizard's prepared spells, except you get to play Schrodinger and prepare them retroactively.

EDIT: You get more Unique Powers per Day than a Psion has Powers Known starting at about level 6. Before that, they can use more different powers a day, but you can change what powers you use (and you don't even have to prepare them!). After that, you can use more different powers per day AND get to change your list every day.

I mean, for a Psion to be able to use a utility power they have to use a Power Known slot forever. For an Erudite they only have to give it up for the day.

Arakune
2010-02-21, 09:44 AM
Probably it's harder to use, and even wizards can prepare multiple copies of one spell. Aparently the RAW on UPD can be shaky with some interpretations, making it either ungodly good (psionic wizard, yay!) or worse than trash (worse than a psion? **** off!)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 09:50 AM
Probably it's harder to use, and even wizards can prepare multiple copies of one spell.

So can you. The text on UPD specifically says that you can manifest the same power as many times as your power points let you.


Aparently the RAW on UPD can be shaky with some interpretations, making it either ungodly good (psionic wizard, yay!) or worse than trash (worse than a psion? **** off!)

Well, even if it's ruled as "unique powers over all levels per day" as opposed to "unique powers per level per day" it's ungodly good, because you get to use utility powers that a psion can't afford to take. And you don't even have to prepare them in advance.

Basically, I'm seeing it as:

Spell to Power: Ungodly awesome.

Non-Spell to Power, UPD ruled per level: Strictly better than a psion past level 6, and a tier 1 class.

Non-Spell to Power, UPD ruled as over all levels: Definite advantages over a psion similar to those of wizards over sorcerers, but does have downsides. I'd still put it in front thanks to greater power access and utility capabilities.

2xMachina
2010-02-21, 11:21 AM
StP... 1 problem I see with it is the XP cost get hefty after a while. Or maybe it's just me, and the impulse to pick up any and all spells that might be useful.

Pluto
2010-02-21, 12:37 PM
Psychic Reformation makes bottomless Powers Known less shiny.

The Unique Power ability is ill-defined (and often read to mean powers total rather than powers/level, which puts it in line with a Wilder). According to the conservative reading, a Psion has more distinct abilities at any given time.




And Discipline/class-specific Power access comes 2 levels later. I've never seen this as a case against the class, but it might be a hangup for someone. Maybe. [Probably not.]

erikun
2010-02-21, 04:27 PM
1.) You do not get powers as you level up, so you need to spend XP and find power crystals/willing/unconcious Psions to get your powers from.

2.) Limited powers per day. If a 1st level Erudite uses Energy Ray, then that's the only power he can use for the whole day, regardless of how much PP he has left. Note that a Psion 20 could potentially learn all the powers in the book and use them freely; an Erudite 20 will still be limited to 11 unique powers each day.


Mind you, variations will make the Erudite stronger/weaker than "normal". Using the 99 UP/D reading makes it stronger than the Psion, as does the Spell-to-Power variant.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 11:05 PM
Psychic Reformation makes bottomless Powers Known less shiny.

It does, that's true.


The Unique Power ability is ill-defined (and often read to mean powers total rather than powers/level, which puts it in line with a Wilder). According to the conservative reading, a Psion has more distinct abilities at any given time.

It doesn't put it in line with a Wilder, because you get to use a different 11 powers every day (and until you run out, you have FAR more choices than a Psion). For a Psion to have an advantage, he has to use more than 11 unique powers in 1 day, which isn't all that likely.


And Discipline/class-specific Power access comes 2 levels later. I've never seen this as a case against the class, but it might be a hangup for someone. Maybe. [Probably not.]

This is true.


1.) You do not get powers as you level up, so you need to spend XP and find power crystals/willing/unconcious Psions to get your powers from.

What? This is flat out wrong. You get 2 powers every time you level up. That's more than a Psion gets.


2.) Limited powers per day. If a 1st level Erudite uses Energy Ray, then that's the only power he can use for the whole day, regardless of how much PP he has left.

He can keep using Energy Ray as many times as he wants until his PP run out. Unique powers per day is exactly that, only your capacity to use different powers is limited.


Note that a Psion 20 could potentially learn all the powers in the book and use them freely; an Erudite 20 will still be limited to 11 unique powers each day.

This is wrong. A Psion 20 cannot learn all the powers in the book. He has limited Powers Known. That's, y'know, the entire point of the Erudite.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-21, 11:50 PM
Using 1st level as your argument against th Erudite is fairly trite, as only Martial Adepts, Druids, Dread Necromancers, and Artificers kick ass at those levels. The Erudite just needs to focus on his Crossbow for two levels, using his powers and feats to buff his attack/damage. At 3rd level, he gets 4 total powers/day and only gets stronger from there.

Wild Cohort puts the Erudite in the game fairly early. Once he gets PsiReform, he is strictly superior to the Psion. IF he gets Arcane Fusion, he's better than all of the Tier 2's, and ahead of the Spirit Shaman (putting him in the Big 6).




The devs really had no idea how unbalanced the class is when they nerf'ed it from the Dragon Mag version.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 01:27 AM
Using 1st level as your argument against th Erudite is fairly trite, as only Martial Adepts, Druids, Dread Necromancers, and Artificers kick ass at those levels. The Erudite just needs to focus on his Crossbow for two levels, using his powers and feats to buff his attack/damage. At 3rd level, he gets 4 total powers/day and only gets stronger from there.

Wild Cohort puts the Erudite in the game fairly early. Once he gets PsiReform, he is strictly superior to the Psion. IF he gets Arcane Fusion, he's better than all of the Tier 2's, and ahead of the Spirit Shaman (putting him in the Big 6).

The devs really had no idea how unbalanced the class is when they nerf'ed it from the Dragon Mag version.

Even without Spell to Power, though, he can still manifest any Psion/Wilder or discipline power on the entire list spontaneously until he runs out of UP/D (which by the "per level" interpretation is flat out not going to happen after level 10 or so). Even if he has hit his UP/D limit, he still has as many powers as a Wilder to pick from.

Incidentally, what is it about PsiReform that makes him strictly superior (not that I'm disagreeing with the superiority, I just don't get what PsiReform does to help it)?

Pluto
2010-02-22, 04:54 AM
It doesn't put it in line with a Wilder, because you get to use a different 11 powers every day (and until you run out, you have FAR more choices than a Psion). For a Psion to have an advantage, he has to use more than 11 unique powers in 1 day, which isn't all that likely.Sometimes I forget Educated Wilder isn't the default and that Psychic Reformation is an option for Wilders to turn down.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 05:10 AM
Sometimes I forget Educated Wilder isn't the default and that Psychic Reformation is an option for Wilders to turn down.

*looks up stuff*

Educated Wilder may be nice, but it's nowhere near the Erudite's access.

And you can't use Psychic Reformation in battle. It allows them to reselect their powers, but costs significant XP and still has to be chosen in advance.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-22, 05:10 PM
Incidentally, what is it about PsiReform that makes him strictly superior (not that I'm disagreeing with the superiority, I just don't get what PsiReform does to help it)?

Lets him trade those Crossbow feats for something useful later on. Nothing serious, just helpful.


And the idea that an Erudite has as many powers/day as a Wilder (effectively) is a little off. WotC's fault for never clarifying the UP/D rules.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-22, 06:49 PM
And you can't use Psychic Reformation in battle. It allows them to reselect their powers, but costs significant XP and still has to be chosen in advance.Psionic contingency says otherwise. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, that does take up one of your contingency slots, but luckily you don't really have a limit. :smallamused:

erikun
2010-02-22, 07:00 PM
What? This is flat out wrong. You get 2 powers every time you level up. That's more than a Psion gets.
Ah, whoops. How in the world did I read that wrong? You're right, the Erudite does get 2 new powers upon levelling up.


This is wrong. A Psion 20 cannot learn all the powers in the book. He has limited Powers Known. That's, y'know, the entire point of the Erudite.
Expanded Knowledge feat, Psychic Chirurgery + Metaconcert powers. And, of course, Psychic Reformation to just change the powers he wants to know. Technically, a Soulknife could know all the powers in the book if they wanted to. It really wouldn't do them any good, though.

Also, knowing a large number of powers isn't necessarily useful for the Erudite. When are you going to use Psionic Knock or Bolt, knowing that doing so will limit your available power selection for the rest of the day? Most characters who want to use such powers will simply put them in a Dorje, making such powers nice for recharging items (if you feel like spending more XP) but not terribly useful in practice.

--

And most people I've seen have treated the Erudite (played properly) as stronger than the Psion, just as the Wizard is stronger than the Sorcerer. The main "Erudite is weak" argument is the assumption that the won't have enough unique powers/day to cover any situation that comes up.

It's likely true at lower levels, but you should have enough of a power selection at higher levels that choosing versatile powers keeps you from becoming limited.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 09:26 PM
Psionic contingency says otherwise. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, that does take up one of your contingency slots, but luckily you don't really have a limit. :smallamused:

I know of no Craft Contingent Power feat, so I'd say there is a limit (of 1). Also, XP cost.


Ah, whoops. How in the world did I read that wrong? You're right, the Erudite does get 2 new powers upon levelling up.

Probably because it doesn't have it in the table.


Expanded Knowledge feat, Psychic Chirurgery + Metaconcert powers. And, of course, Psychic Reformation to just change the powers he wants to know. Technically, a Soulknife could know all the powers in the book if they wanted to. It really wouldn't do them any good, though.

All complicated stuff to do what an Erudite gets for free. :smallamused:


Also, knowing a large number of powers isn't necessarily useful for the Erudite. When are you going to use Psionic Knock or Bolt, knowing that doing so will limit your available power selection for the rest of the day? Most characters who want to use such powers will simply put them in a Dorje, making such powers nice for recharging items (if you feel like spending more XP) but not terribly useful in practice.

a) when you're running by the RAW, and have more than enough UPD to cover it,

b) when you're fairly sure you have a free slot to do it with.


And most people I've seen have treated the Erudite (played properly) as stronger than the Psion, just as the Wizard is stronger than the Sorcerer. The main "Erudite is weak" argument is the assumption that the won't have enough unique powers/day to cover any situation that comes up.

It's likely true at lower levels, but you should have enough of a power selection at higher levels that choosing versatile powers keeps you from becoming limited.

Well, I'd agree that an Erudite is less powerful at low levels (like at level 1, with his grand total of 1 UPD).

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-22, 09:45 PM
I know of no Craft Contingent Power feat, so I'd say there is a limit (of 1). Also, XP cost.Well, psionic contingency doesn't limit you to one instance of contingency like the arcane version does; it only limits you to one instance of the companion power, and if another is activated, the first companion power activated by psionic contingency shuts down.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 10:03 PM
Well, psionic contingency doesn't limit you to one instance of contingency like the arcane version does; it only limits you to one instance of the companion power, and if another is activated, the first companion power activated by psionic contingency shuts down.

Good point, I missed that.

But yeah. Spending 500 XP every time you want to change your powers known isn't my idea of "free". And Erudites can do it for free.

Erudites can also get discipline powers without Expanded Knowledge. I'd like to see a Wilder do that.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-22, 10:11 PM
Good point, I missed that.

But yeah. Spending 500 XP every time you want to change your powers known isn't my idea of "free". And Erudites can do it for free.

Erudites can also get discipline powers without Expanded Knowledge. I'd like to see a Wilder do that.Err...research?

FMArthur
2010-02-22, 10:13 PM
I read up on Psionic Tattoos a while back and the funny little systems you could develop for their reuse thanks to that one Mind's Eye article where you could get special tattoos that modified other tattoos and could be linked and integrated with one another in a bizarre circuitry puzzle fashion (which was really cool in retrospect). Anyway, it was linked from a thread like this and I eventually found it to be a great (magnificent, even) combination for Wilders and Psions that allowed for reusable standard action Psychic Reformations, but it doesn't really get to be anything like the amount of spontaneity you get as an Erudite who can just pick any power out of all powers he likes until he's used all of them up. Psychic Reformation costs you time and XP. You can mitigate the problem with multiple everlasting Psychic Reformation tattoos, but you have to decide on the powersets ahead of time and it still costs valuable actions. Nothing with Psychic Reformation I've seen is as efficient in both cost and time as just playing an Erudite.

I do recommend looking up the tattoo article, though. It introduces a very cool system and can be used if you want to fake Erudite flexibility a little with another class you have your heart set on (it is also interesting and useful for its own sake).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 10:35 PM
Err...research?

You think you can just research a non-discipline-specific version of a discipline power, eh?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-22, 10:46 PM
You think you can just research a non-discipline-specific version of a discipline power, eh?

XPH pg 95. Yes, you can. It just takes time, XP, a power known, more PP, and DM Fiat. The Erudite skips the last two, and dramatically reduces the first two.

absolmorph
2010-02-22, 10:49 PM
You think you can just research a non-discipline-specific version of a discipline power, eh?
Seems like sound logic to me.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-22, 10:53 PM
Seems like sound logic to me.With the [sonic] and [language-dependent] descriptors. Possibly [mind-affecting], which is why some people are immune.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 11:17 PM
I will ignore Lycanthromancer's pointless snark.


XPH pg 95. Yes, you can. It just takes time, XP, a power known, more PP, and DM Fiat. The Erudite skips the last two, and dramatically reduces the first two.

He was talking about using it for a Wilder to get discipline powers without EK.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-22, 11:33 PM
I will ignore Lycanthromancer's pointless snark.It was supposed to be funny, and had nothing to do with anyone in the thread, promise.

arguskos
2010-02-22, 11:34 PM
It was supposed to be funny, and had nothing to do with anyone in the thread, promise.
Srsly magic9mushroom, he just does that. It's pretty funny usually (I laughed anyways).

Edea
2010-02-22, 11:43 PM
Usual arguments are the following:

1) Unique Powers per Day interpretations; this is the big daddy of the reasons, and that includes metapsionics (RAW it's per power level per day, which immediately makes it more powerful than a psion, but I've yet to see a DM allow this). For example, if you manifest an Empowered Energy Ray, supposedly that would be the unique power, not Energy Ray alone, meaning you'd have to expend a focus each time you wanted to manifest it for the rest of the day, and you'd have to pay the new PP cost/consider the room left for augmenting it as if affected by the previously chosen metapsionics (I don't agree with this, but I've seen people interpret it this way).

2) Having to spend fairly significant amounts of time and XP to get at discipline powers without spending a feat (and with some disciplines, you want LOTS of their powers, not just one or two). Some get turned off by the fact that the XP cost increases as you gain erudite levels, even if you're learning a lower level power. Also basically someone needs to hand it to you, much like with archivist (barring multiclass with psionic artificer or something, which should never happen); some people dislike this, as well.

3) Inability to learn 9th level discipline powers (that one hurts a lot, and for some it's enough to turn them away from the class, even if they don't know whether their game'll ever get to 17th level or not!).

4) Interpretations of what 'psionic class' means (usually this is ruled as 'if the erudite PrCs and you don't take the levels in the right order, kiss your copying abilities goodbye'). If PrCs are ruled to not be psionic classes, this concern is moot (why the heck would you ever multiclass a full manifester; we've got the psychic warrior and psychic rogue classes for that).

Otherwise, Erudite is clearly better than the Psion, barring additional class skills from discipline choices. It gets a psicrystal automatically, it learns more powers, and is otherwise identical to a normal Psion. Erudite's better than Wilder even with strict rules interpretations, especially with Anarchic Initiate being available; not sure who'd claim Wilder is the better of the two.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 02:07 AM
Also basically someone needs to hand it to you, much like with archivist (barring multiclass with psionic artificer or something, which should never happen); some people dislike this, as well.

Actually, an Erudite can learn every psion power in the game without ever meeting another psionic character. Simply get a tattoo of psychic reformation, dump all your powers known into power stones, reform yourself to learn new ones, dump those into stones etc. When you're done, relearn every power you stored outside your mind.

Archivists can do the same thing - they just need a way to repeatedly Psyreform too.


3) Inability to learn 9th level discipline powers (that one hurts a lot, and for some it's enough to turn them away from the class, even if they don't know whether their game'll ever get to 17th level or not!).

Erudites can learn 9th-level discipline powers just fine - they just have to be epic. Otherwise, the Favored Discipline variant can learn 9th-level powers from their chosen discipline just as though they were general powers. They can even learn the top-level powers of other class lists, such as 9th-level Ardent powers and 6th-level Psywar powers.

Good disciplines for an FD Erudite to pick are Psychoportation, Psychometabolism, and Metacreativity. Clairsentience is a great choice for an investigative campaign - you'll be a walking storehouse of all those situational divinations that other casters don't get. How many psions spring for Hypercognition anyway?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 02:17 AM
Actually, an Erudite can learn every psion power in the game without ever meeting another psionic character. Simply get a tattoo of psychic reformation, dump all your powers known into power stones, reform yourself to learn new ones, dump those into stones etc. When you're done, relearn every power you stored outside your mind.

Archivists can do the same thing - they just need a way to repeatedly Psyreform too.

Or you could just go and buy power stones, or knock out and mindsuck every caster BBEG. :smallamused:

Kyeudo
2010-02-23, 02:42 AM
Or you could just go and buy power stones, or knock out and mindsuck every caster BBEG. :smallamused:

Doing so is so easy too. All you have to do is use Ego Whip to drain their Charisma down to nothing and they stay your play toy for days. I mean, who doesn't dump stat Charisma?

Tavar
2010-02-23, 02:44 AM
Wilders and Sorcerers?

Kyeudo
2010-02-23, 02:45 AM
And who are the worst BBEGs for supplying new powers known?

Sliver
2010-02-23, 02:58 AM
Monks and Truenamers? :smalltongue:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 03:54 AM
And who are the worst BBEGs for supplying new powers known?

Well, Bards don't dump Charisma, and they're particularly juicy to brainsuck, what with their healing, unique spells, etc.

lord_khaine
2010-02-23, 04:23 AM
Well, Bards don't dump Charisma, and they're particularly juicy to brainsuck, what with their healing, unique spells, etc.

But this is a problem a little int damage should be able to solve pretty fast.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 04:34 AM
But this is a problem a little int damage should be able to solve pretty fast.

Indeed. Or Shivering Touch + repeated whacking with a Sap.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Erudites can play Sylar pretty damn well.

2xMachina
2010-02-23, 05:42 AM
Sounds like a nice character concept. Take StP, and the Dragon Mag version for Divine too, and make yourself a walking library.

Hit epic and get ALL the powers, arcane and divine spells.

Your 11UpD /spell lvl will have a use now.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 05:47 AM
Sounds like a nice character concept. Take StP, and the Dragon Mag version for Divine too, and make yourself a walking library.

Hit epic and get ALL the powers, arcane and divine spells.

Your 11UpD /spell lvl will have a use now.

Dragon Mag version? You mean abuse of Alternative Source Spell like that with the Archivist?

2xMachina
2010-02-23, 05:58 AM
Not sure actually. I had seen it mentioned, but I do not own any Dragon Mags.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 06:07 AM
Not sure actually. I had seen it mentioned, but I do not own any Dragon Mags.

The Dragon Magazine version of Erudite, if that's what you're referring to, has no Spell to Power. However, when Spell to Power was first put up, it allowed all spells. It was subsequently edited.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-23, 06:38 AM
For the record, the only part hazy about UP/Lvl/Day is the table. The text is explicitly clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, to the important stuff :

UP/Lvl/Day or UP/Day, neither matter with the right psionic tattoos. And don't delude yourself for a second to believe you can't snag every power and spell in the game with the right wrangling of ACF's. Remember what the Ardent ACF does to mantles? ANY power can exist in a mantle theoretically, including spells converted to powers. Swap mantles until you have everything you want, using your PsyRef and PsiChir tats to imbed them in your mind outside the bounds of UP/Lvl/Day, and laugh maniacally as you become the omnicaster. And the one you end on is Magic Mantle for it's mantle power. FULL transparency. As in total, 100%. Anyone ever wondered what happens to an already top of Tier 1 Erudite that decides he'd like 10 levels of Psicantatrix? :D

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 06:51 AM
Or you could just go and buy power stones, or knock out and mindsuck every caster BBEG. :smallamused:

My method works even if your GM never provides stones, or doesn't allow you to use StP Erudite (if you're up against spellcasters, rather than manifesters.)


EDIT: Come to think of it, Erudites can play Sylar pretty damn well.

*shudder*


For the record, the only part hazy about UP/Lvl/Day is the table. The text is explicitly clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That's the problem - the text provides the broken interpretation (just as with Rainbow Servant) while the table does not. Good luck getting that past your DM.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-23, 06:54 AM
Broken is 100% subjective. Furthermore, if they're throwing out the notion that Text Trumps Table, they are destroying several PrC's that would otherwise be a waste of time, most notably the mentioned Rainbow Servant (that is in multiple places 10/10 casting, as the text indicates). Besides, once you've PsiChir'ed everything, UP/Lvl/Day is an empty stat.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 07:11 AM
For the record, the only part hazy about UP/Lvl/Day is the table. The text is explicitly clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, to the important stuff :

UP/Lvl/Day or UP/Day, neither matter with the right psionic tattoos. And don't delude yourself for a second to believe you can't snag every power and spell in the game with the right wrangling of ACF's. Remember what the Ardent ACF does to mantles? ANY power can exist in a mantle theoretically, including spells converted to powers. Swap mantles until you have everything you want, using your PsyRef and PsiChir tats to imbed them in your mind outside the bounds of UP/Lvl/Day, and laugh maniacally as you become the omnicaster. And the one you end on is Magic Mantle for it's mantle power. FULL transparency. As in total, 100%. Anyone ever wondered what happens to an already top of Tier 1 Erudite that decides he'd like 10 levels of Psicantatrix? :D

a) How are you being an Erudite and an Ardent simultaneously? Are you talking about Mantled Erudite?

b) How do PsyRef and PsyChir bypass UP/D?

c) Be careful of the Nerf Hammer that drops if you take psi classes other than Erudite too much.


My method works even if your GM never provides stones, or doesn't allow you to use StP Erudite (if you're up against spellcasters, rather than manifesters.)

If your DM never provides stones, they're officially Out to Get You (TM) and you're screwed anyway.

Assuming full market access, you can usually find stones.


*shudder*

*laughs evilly*

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 07:20 AM
Broken is 100% subjective. Furthermore, if they're throwing out the notion that Text Trumps Table, they are destroying several PrC's that would otherwise be a waste of time, most notably the mentioned Rainbow Servant (that is in multiple places 10/10 casting, as the text indicates). Besides, once you've PsiChir'ed everything, UP/Lvl/Day is an empty stat.

RS is broken, because it's either ridiculously good or terrible with no middle ground. If the table at least had it as 8/10 casting then I would never have referred to it as such.

And speaking of tables, you can't disregard Erudite's table - it's the only thing that actually tells you how much UPD you'd have under either interpretation.

They really don't need UP/level/day to be good. Even with just UP/day, they still have as many powers in one day as a Wilder does ever. Even without Psyreform, they still have a lot more freedom than Wilders do to learn powers. With Psyreform things just get crazy - a Wilder can swap its list, but an Erudite's can just plain grow. Unlike Wilders, Erudites can learn discipline powers without blowing feats on them... and they get bonus feats on top of that. And since they get a bonus feat and a psicrystal at level 1, it's really like they're getting 3 bonus feats by level 5 (who doesn't get a psicrystal?) That's as many as a fighter, from a much better list.

The Wilder's only advantage over them is Wild Surge. It's a strong advantage, but is still a rubber mallet - not as useful when what you really could benefit from is the Erudite's screwdriver.

Normal Wilders are Tier 3. Psions are Tier 2. Normal Erudites, I believe, fall between those two. How strong do you need them to be? They're already functional.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-23, 07:26 AM
RS is broken, because it's either ridiculously good or terrible with no middle ground. If the table at least had it as 8/10 casting then I would never have referred to it as such.

And speaking of tables, you can't disregard Erudite's table - it's the only thing that actually tells you how much UPD you'd have under either interpretation.

They really don't need UP/level/day to be good. Even with just UP/day, they still have as many powers in one day as a Wilder does ever. Even without Psyreform, they still have a lot more freedom than Wilders do to learn powers. With Psyreform things just get crazy - a Wilder can swap its list, but an Erudite's can just plain grow. Unlike Wilders, Erudites can learn discipline powers without blowing feats on them... and they get bonus feats on top of that. And since they get a bonus feat and a psicrystal at level 1, it's really like they're getting 3 bonus feats by level 5 (who doesn't get a psicrystal?) That's as many as a fighter, from a much better list.

The Wilder's only advantage over them is Wild Surge. It's a strong advantage, but is still a rubber mallet - not as useful when what you really could benefit from is the Erudite's screwdriver.

Normal Wilders are Tier 3. Psions are Tier 2. Normal Erudites, I believe, fall between those two. How strong do you need them to be? They're already functional.

RS is either good at what it's intended to do, or gimped too horridly to be worth the ink used on the pages it was printed on. And also, StP isn't even needed to get all spells ever. Nor does the UP/Lvl/Day table matter, as stated, with tats.

And magic9, Mantled Erudite using a power-swapped mantle. As in lots of them. The joys of being neuron-reformat capable (one of two things I adore about psionics over normal arcane magic...the other one being tankiness, even more so than a crusader).

EDIT : Oh, and PsiChir powers aren't fettered to a class. All they care about is ability to manifest (i.e. ML and pp reserve left).

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 07:45 AM
I'm all for power-swapping mantles, and even independent research. Just keep in mind that doing both carries the CharOp's Bane clause: "Subject to DM approval."

My point is though, that even normal Erudite with UP/day is a decent level of power for most groups. All of the variants simply make it even better at what it does. Both Mantled Erudite and Favored Discipline Erudite can learn discipline powers all the way up to 9th without any lag or penalty. Mantled Erudite can also pick up extra mantles, and unlike Ardent is not restricted to the powers within those mantles when gaining levels.

There's just no reason to go anywhere near StP Erudite except during a TO exercise. I love the variant - I think it's an awesome and flavorful way to grant unique and powerful effects to psionics - but it is just too powerful in too many ways to have any real place at a game table. Not breaking it is like walking on eggshells; you'll find yourself doing it even if you don't mean to. Who wouldn't want to spam 30-hour Forcecages at 15 PP each?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 07:51 AM
Spell to Power Erudite fits in perfectly if the other members of the party are an Archivist/Dweomerkeeper, a Druid/Planar Shepherd, and a Wizard/Incantatrix.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-23, 07:52 AM
I'm all for power-swapping mantles, and even independent research. Just keep in mind that doing both carries the CharOp's Bane clause: "Subject to DM approval."

My point is though, that even normal Erudite with UP/day is a decent level of power for most groups. All of the variants simply make it even better at what it does. Both Mantled Erudite and Favored Discipline Erudite can learn discipline powers all the way up to 9th without any lag or penalty. Mantled Erudite can also pick up extra mantles, and unlike Ardent is not restricted to the powers within those mantles when gaining levels.

There's just no reason to go anywhere near StP Erudite except during a TO exercise. I love the variant - I think it's an awesome and flavorful way to grant unique and powerful effects to psionics - but it is just too powerful in too many ways to have any real place at a game table. Not breaking it is like walking on eggshells; you'll find yourself doing it even if you don't mean to. Who wouldn't want to spam 30-hour Forcecages at 15 PP each?

Having played the build I mentioned above, including Dominant Ideal ACF on his mantle (with all our favorite spells and powers in that mantle), I found him to be no worse than any other heavily optimized Tier 1. What he had above them was versatility and longevity, as recharge was in play. Granted, Tier 1 casters can do this too, but it's just easier and cleaner with a psionic character, not to mention FAR more elegant. Also, kid gloves go a long way towards keeping the DM off your back (and also can serve as a reminder when he decides to get too full of himself and try to TPK the party because he's got a wittle tummy ache, wah!).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 07:55 AM
Having played the build I mentioned above, including Dominant Ideal ACF on his mantle (with all our favorite spells and powers in that mantle), I found him to be no worse than any other heavily optimized Tier 1. What he had above them was versatility and longevity, as recharge was in play. Granted, Tier 1 casters can do this too, but it's just easier and cleaner with a psionic character, not to mention FAR more elegant. Also, kid gloves go a long way towards keeping the DM off your back (and also can serve as a reminder when he decides to get too full of himself and try to TPK the party because he's got a wittle tummy ache, wah!).

Isn't Dominant Ideal on a Mantled Erudite illegal by RAW?

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 08:11 AM
Having played the build I mentioned above, including Dominant Ideal ACF on his mantle (with all our favorite spells and powers in that mantle), I found him to be no worse than any other heavily optimized Tier 1. What he had above them was versatility and longevity, as recharge was in play. Granted, Tier 1 casters can do this too, but it's just easier and cleaner with a psionic character, not to mention FAR more elegant. Also, kid gloves go a long way towards keeping the DM off your back (and also can serve as a reminder when he decides to get too full of himself and try to TPK the party because he's got a wittle tummy ache, wah!).

Of course an Dominant Ideal Mantled Erudite would be close to Tier 1. DI already pushes Ardents to Tier 2, so applying it to a class that has a general list of powers AND a Mantle would be even more powerful.

As m9m pointed out though, DI is an ACF, so you can't apply it to a non-Ardent class even if they do get Mantles.

I understand that you can wear kid gloves with an StP Erudite. You can pretend that being tied up, or silenced, or lacking an expensive material component, or having onlookers when you need to cast a spell, somehow matters to your effectiveness the way it would to a lowly wizard. But sooner or later, that temptation is going to overwhelm even the most gentlemanly player. "Power corrupts," the saying goes; "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 08:33 AM
I understand that you can wear kid gloves with an StP Erudite. You can pretend that being tied up, or silenced, or lacking an expensive material component, or having onlookers when you need to cast a spell, somehow matters to your effectiveness the way it would to a lowly wizard. But sooner or later, that temptation is going to overwhelm even the most gentlemanly player. "Power corrupts," the saying goes; "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Well, the "silenced" and "tied up" bits do very much matter to the StP part's effectiveness...

And what's this about "having onlookers"? :smallconfused:

KellKheraptis
2010-02-23, 08:36 AM
Part of that issue is the idea of variant stacking, with one camp being it is tied to a class feature, and the other claiming it's tied to a class. Quite frankly, it doesn't hurt anything, and encourages unique characters. That said :

A Dominant Ideal Mantled Erudite is far from close to Tier 1, it is well into Tier 1. As stated, mantles give access ultimately to every spell and power, which is the hallmark of Tier 1, with the access to the nukes of Tier 2 to boot. A vanilla StP erudite is Tier 1 without any of that, but if you combine the two, they enter into the unholy trinity of Tier 0, alongside a well-made Arcane Swordsage and a Psionic Artificer (with the arguable 4th a TO wizard).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 08:41 AM
Part of that issue is the idea of variant stacking, with one camp being it is tied to a class feature, and the other claiming it's tied to a class. Quite frankly, it doesn't hurt anything, and encourages unique characters. That said :


Dominant Ideal

An ardent develops her power by embracing philosophical concepts, with her two primary mantles serving as the core of her beliefs, and the secondary mantles providing peripheral views of the world. For some, one specific ideal outshines even its primary companion, and secondary considerations are little more than a distracting shadow of doubt. If you want to make a single mantle the focus of your ardent, selecting the dominant ideal alternative class feature allows you to use its powers more effectively. In exchange for this stronger focus, you must give up access to a new psionic mantle, reducing your overall power selection.

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not assume an additional secondary psionic mantle at 10th level.

Benefit: At 10th level, you choose one of your primary mantles to become the dominant ideal in your philosophy, deepening your connection to this fundamental principle. You do not need to expend your psionic focus when applying metapsionic feats to powers you manifest from your chosen primary mantle, and the power point cost of augmenting or applying metapsionic feats to these idealized powers is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0). The reduction in cost applies only to the additional power points spent on augmentation or metapsionic feats; the power's normal power point cost is not reduced.

If you later decide to make the primary mantle for which you have selected this alternative class feature into a secondary mantle, you must also swap this feature, allocating it to one of your primary mantles.

It is an ardent class feature, and a Mantled Erudite can't sacrifice a secondary mantle anyway. You lose.


A Dominant Ideal Mantled Erudite is far from close to Tier 1, it is well into Tier 1. As stated, mantles give access ultimately to every spell and power, which is the hallmark of Tier 1, with the access to the nukes of Tier 2 to boot. A vanilla StP erudite is Tier 1 without any of that, but if you combine the two, they enter into the unholy trinity of Tier 0, alongside a well-made Arcane Swordsage and a Psionic Artificer (with the arguable 4th a TO wizard).

You can't be Mantled and StP at the same time.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 09:07 AM
Well, the "silenced" and "tied up" bits do very much matter to the StP part's effectiveness...

And what's this about "having onlookers"? :smallconfused:

My mistake, I forgot they kept the Verbal and Somatic components of spells-as-powers.

Even so, dispensing with material components is advantage enough.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 09:19 AM
My mistake, I forgot they kept the Verbal and Somatic components of spells-as-powers.

Even so, dispensing with material components is advantage enough.

Oh god yes. Especially if they can cheese their way into getting divine spells as well (through Alternative Source Spell or some such).

What were you saying about "having spectators", though?

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 09:28 AM
What were you saying about "having spectators", though?

Well, if there are no V and S components, onlookers have no way of knowing a spell was cast.

Powers have displays, which require Psicraft, and even then it's ambiguous whether identifying the power identifies its source. (most emanate from the manifester, but if there are multiple people around... not quite the same as seeing someone wiggle their fingers and spout gibberish.)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 09:33 AM
Well, if there are no V and S components, onlookers have no way of knowing a spell was cast.

Powers have displays, which require Psicraft, and even then it's ambiguous whether identifying the power identifies its source. (most emanate from the manifester, but if there are multiple people around... not quite the same as seeing someone wiggle their fingers and spout gibberish.)

There's a feat somewhere that lets you conceal spellcasting, though, and there's that weird one in Cityscape that lets you make a spell appear to come from somewhere else. And I'd certainly rule that if you saw a power's display emanating from someone, you could finger them.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 09:35 AM
The Dragon Magazine version of Erudite, if that's what you're referring to, has no Spell to Power. However, when Spell to Power was first put up, it allowed all spells. It was subsequently edited.

One of the last Dragon Mags for 3.5 (either before WotC bought it or after) has an ACF for the Erudite that grants them Spell-to-Power, but for Divine Spells. Due to the requirements on that ACF, you can have both StP and this ability on the same Erudite. It sits squarely in the Game Breaker category.

Overshee
2010-02-23, 09:46 AM
A vanilla StP erudite is Tier 1 without any of that, but if you combine the two, they enter into the unholy trinity of Tier 0, alongside a well-made Arcane Swordsage and a Psionic Artificer (with the arguable 4th a TO wizard).

So I get why Arcane Swordsage is ridiculous, by why is Psionic Artificer any better than regular Artificer?

also, what is "TO"?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 09:54 AM
One of the last Dragon Mags for 3.5 (either before WotC bought it or after) has an ACF for the Erudite that grants them Spell-to-Power, but for Divine Spells. Due to the requirements on that ACF, you can have both StP and this ability on the same Erudite. It sits squarely in the Game Breaker category.

Any clues as to where? It's difficult to google thanks to the Erudite's origin in Dragon.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 09:56 AM
There's a feat somewhere that lets you conceal spellcasting, though, and there's that weird one in Cityscape that lets you make a spell appear to come from somewhere else. And I'd certainly rule that if you saw a power's display emanating from someone, you could finger them.

For visual displays, yes, and possibly auditory ones too if its not too noisy. But a mental chime? A smell that you can't quite place? An ectoplasmic sheen appearing not on the manifester, but on the target? Those have a bit more wiggle-room.

And even if an Erudite can't cast his spells without those components, he still has psionic powers, and can suppress the displays to boot.

(The feat is actually a skill trick, which are only usable a few times/day IIRC. I'm not familiar with the Cityscape one, but it may not apply to powers - which is what StP spells become, components or not.)


also, what is "TO"?

Theoretical Optimization - i.e. not for use at a table.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-23, 10:25 AM
You're doing it wrong if you can't get two mantles on an erudite ;)

And by using both, I mean using the mantle(s) to pick up everything an StP gets. Stop thinking CO for a moment and look at what it's actually capable of. TO. A CO Erudite is "only" Tier 1. A TO Erudite is the omnicaster.

And as for Psionic Artificer, they have the same access an Erudite does to every spell and power. With reformatting on the fly, they can metapower the crap out of any item they make, meaning any of their boomsticks will be just as powerful as a specialized blastoficer's, while they have all the utility of a general or buff artificer.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 10:26 AM
You're doing it wrong if you can't get two mantles on an erudite ;)

And by using both, I mean using the mantle(s) to pick up everything an StP gets. Stop thinking CO for a moment and look at what it's actually capable of. TO. A CO Erudite is "only" Tier 1. A TO Erudite is the omnicaster.

Please explain how you are doing this.

Overshee
2010-02-23, 10:28 AM
And as for Psionic Artificer, they have the same access an Erudite does to every spell and power. With reformatting on the fly, they can metapower the crap out of any item they make, meaning any of their boomsticks will be just as powerful as a specialized blastoficer's, while they have all the utility of a general or buff artificer.

So basically you're saying that since StP Erudites exist, every spell exists as a power but there is no PtS Wizard so a regular Artificer couldn't do the same thing? Heh...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 10:32 AM
Hey KK, you do know that the existence of StP doesn't allow learning spells as powers, right?

StP Erudites are specifically called out as manifesting spells. They are "effectively a psionic power" for the application of metapsionics, but they are NOT powers. Hence, they don't help anybody other than StP Erudites.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 11:29 AM
Any clues as to where? It's difficult to google thanks to the Erudite's origin in Dragon.

No clue. If it was released before WotC bought Dragon, it would have been 7 or so issues before WotC started featuring the articles online. If it was after, then it's all ready online.


You're doing it wrong if you can't get two mantles on an erudite ;)

And by using both, I mean using the mantle(s) to pick up everything an StP gets. Stop thinking CO for a moment and look at what it's actually capable of. TO. A CO Erudite is "only" Tier 1. A TO Erudite is the omnicaster.

And as for Psionic Artificer, they have the same access an Erudite does to every spell and power. With reformatting on the fly, they can metapower the crap out of any item they make, meaning any of their boomsticks will be just as powerful as a specialized blastoficer's, while they have all the utility of a general or buff artificer.

Right. Erudite and the PsiArti are considered TO territory by near-default due to their sheer power. Building one to actually be played requires a steady hand and a retraining bolt.

Edea
2010-02-23, 12:58 PM
Actually, an Erudite can learn every psion power in the game without ever meeting another psionic character. Simply get a tattoo of psychic reformation, dump all your powers known into power stones, reform yourself to learn new ones, dump those into stones etc. When you're done, relearn every power you stored outside your mind.

Archivists can do the same thing - they just need a way to repeatedly Psyreform too.


Then they need to hand you the tattoo (DM's well within their rights to say there are no psionic tattoo artists around to craft it for you, claiming that's a rather bizarre item).

If you invest in the feats to create the power stones yourself (and choose PsyRef as one of your free powers, little need for a tattoo at that point), that's more gold and XP to craft them, and even MORE XP when you actually manifest the reformation. Then it's EVEN MORE XP to relearn each power (and this gets worse as you gain erudite levels, can't go below 0 for a given level). Also, it's 8 hours per power relearned, and that's not including crafting times for all the power stones (pretty sure that's minimum 1 day/stone; might be more, I don't remember). It can be a large investment outside of a vacuum (I'll assume you auto-meet the Psicraft requirement for relearning, competence item or not, but that would really suck if you happened to roll a 1 and couldn't pick the power up again until you gained another level).

Also, though this is rule 0 territory and not really relevant to the discussion, most DMs will ban a power like PsyRef (and things like it, such as Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos) without a second thought.



Erudites can learn 9th-level discipline powers just fine - they just have to be epic. Otherwise, the Favored Discipline variant can learn 9th-level powers from their chosen discipline just as though they were general powers. They can even learn the top-level powers of other class lists, such as 9th-level Ardent powers and 6th-level Psywar powers.


At 21st+ level, -all- full manifesting psionic characters should know -every single power in existence-. Epic Manifesting breaks the game into tiny pieces; simply create a psionic ritual involving a planet's worth of dominated slave manifesters to acquire every single power in the multiverse and learn them all instantly, with no deleterious effects. Post-20th IMO just isn't in the realm of discussion.

I've never heard of Favored Discipline, but what you're saying about it makes me happy :) can you post a link to it in here? Might use this for my maybe-erudite in an upcoming game.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 01:13 PM
Then they need to hand you the tattoo (DM's well within their rights to say there are no psionic tattoo artists around to craft it for you, claiming that's a rather bizarre item).

You don't need the tattoo either, it's just a way of saving yourself some XP from manifesting Psychic Reformation repeatedly. Without it, you can still learn a large number of powers with this trick, just not every power in existence unless you have an XP dispenser of some kind.

Yes, this is prohibitively expensive, but you can live with just the powers you learn from leveling up anyway if you really need to.


Also, though this is rule 0 territory and not really relevant to the discussion, most DMs will ban a power like PsyRef (and things like it, such as Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos) without a second thought.

Psychic Reformation by itself is not nearly as broken as Chaos Shuffle. Again, you can use it to learn a larger number of powers known than otherwise possible, without abusing it.


At 21st+ level, -all- full manifesting psionic characters should know -every single power in existence-. Epic Manifesting breaks the game into tiny pieces; simply create a psionic ritual involving a planet's worth of dominated slave manifesters to acquire every single power in the multiverse and learn them all instantly, with no deleterious effects. Post-20th IMO just isn't in the realm of discussion.

I agree - Epic Manifesting is just as broken as Epic Spellcasting, if not moreso - but that's besides the point. Even if EM is banned, an epic level Erudite can still learn 9th-level discipline powers, without needing to develop them from scratch and them mitigate them through the ground with cheese.


I've never heard of Favored Discipline, but what you're saying about it makes me happy :) can you post a link to it in here? Might use this for my maybe-erudite in an upcoming game.

It is one of the three variant Erudites in Mind's Eye. It is more powerful than Mantled Erudite, but less so than StP Erudite. They are all available here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

Morrolan
2010-02-23, 02:48 PM
How do you knock people unconscious :P My erudite needs more powers ^^

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 03:03 PM
How do you knock people unconscious :P My erudite needs more powers ^^

You just need a full minute of physical contact. Use your imagination (Tzeentch only knows what you can do with the damn thing).

Morrolan
2010-02-23, 03:16 PM
You just need a full minute of physical contact. Use your imagination (Tzeentch only knows what you can do with the damn thing).

In my version of complete psionics it states that a full round action is adequate :P
Yeah you're right I guess I'll manage. (I was thinking of paying the party a small bonus if they took the -4 for doing nonlethal damage ^^)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 04:25 PM
In my version of complete psionics it states that a full round action is adequate :P
Yeah you're right I guess I'll manage. (I was thinking of paying the party a small bonus if they took the -4 for doing nonlethal damage ^^)

Ah, right, it takes more time to commit it to memory. But keep in mind (pardon) that you can't manifest any powers without risking losing the spells/powers you snag. The good news is you can commit massive numbers of powers all in the same day.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-24, 01:43 AM
How do you knock people unconscious :P My erudite needs more powers ^^

Oh, come on. Dazelock or stunlock them and get your fighter buddy to full power attack them with a sap until they drop. Or go Temporal Acceleration/Temporal Reiteration and tie them up. You're Batman+. Use save-or-loses.

masterjoda99
2010-02-24, 12:28 PM
Also, Ego Whip into oblivion, perhaps?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 12:39 PM
Also, Ego Whip into oblivion, perhaps?

That gets you the first victim, but you can't manifest powers safely while stealing with the Erudite.

Morrolan
2010-02-24, 12:42 PM
That gets you the first victim, but you can't manifest powers safely while stealing with the Erudite.

How exactely? you cant drop your targets cha lower than 1, so he wont go unconscious right?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 01:26 PM
How exactely? you cant drop your targets cha lower than 1, so he wont go unconscious right?

I think you're incorrect, and here's why:


Your rapid mental lashings assault the ego of your enemy, debilitating its confidence. The target takes 1d4 points of Charisma damage, or half that amount (minimum 1 point) on a successful save. A target that fails its save is also dazed for 1 round.


It's a minimum damage.

Morrolan
2010-02-24, 01:57 PM
Hey, you're right! Thx gonna use that!

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 03:11 AM
Sylar:

Illithid Savant + Erudite. Eat brains and learn everything they knew.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 03:16 AM
Sylar:

Illithid Savant + Erudite. Eat brains and learn everything they knew.

Oh god, not Illithid Savant.

Yes, Illithid Savant does it better, but I was trying to stay away from that ungodly abomination.

Besides, Sylar only gained people's *powers*, didn't he?

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 03:18 AM
Your Erudite don't eat brains though.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 03:39 AM
Your Erudite don't eat brains though.

I haven't seen Heroes, but didn't Sylar only examine the brains?

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 05:20 AM
Originally, they planned that Sylar eat it. Then they thought it stupid, and left it vague, and finally lampshaded it by having Sylar say eating brains is disgusting.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 05:27 AM
Originally, they planned that Sylar eat it. Then they thought it stupid, and left it vague, and finally lampshaded it by having Sylar say eating brains is disgusting.

The Erudite is still cooler, because he's not Zombie Cthulhu.

Incidentally, Erudites should just about always take levels of PrCs (as long as it's less than the amount that triggers the nerf hammer) because it lowers the XP cost of adding powers.

Obvious ones are Thrallherd and Anarchic Initiate.

EDIT: This only if you're working under Unique Powers/Level/Day, otherwise the UP/D is too powerful to lose.

Coy
2010-02-26, 12:56 PM
Incidently, would taking levels of a PrC progress (as gaining a level of a manifester with regards to casting) P/D, or P/L/D?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-26, 01:09 PM
Incidently, would taking levels of a PrC progress (as gaining a level of a manifester with regards to casting) P/D, or P/L/D?

Not as written. It's a separate class feature.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 01:21 PM
Incidently, would taking levels of a PrC progress (as gaining a level of a manifester with regards to casting) P/D, or P/L/D?

No. It also wouldn't progress the XP cost for learning a new power.

Coy
2010-02-26, 01:36 PM
I suppose to take the best of all worlds, all you have to do is take enough levels of Erudite to get satisfactory P/L/D (or stick with it further for P/D), and then PrC as fast as possible to reduce XP loss.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 01:43 PM
I suppose to take the best of all worlds, all you have to do is take enough levels of Erudite to get satisfactory P/L/D (or stick with it further for P/D), and then PrC as fast as possible to reduce XP loss.

Exactly.aa