[3.5] Best energy type?

[Myou]

As I understand it, people generally rank the energy types like this;

1. Sonic
2. Acid
3. Cold
4. Electricity
5. Fire

But if you could take a version of Searing Spell/Piercing Cold for any energy type you wanted, which type would you pick and why?

[magic9mushroom]

As I understand it, people generally rank the energy types like this;

1. Sonic
2. Acid
3. Cold
4. Electricity
5. Fire

But if you could take a version of Searing Spell/Piercing Cold for any energy type you wanted, which type would you pick and why?

Fire, specifically because it is the one most usually resisted or immune to. That's why it's considered bad, after all.

[bosssmiley]

Fire, because fire is cool. :smallcool:

(electricity is a close second though)

[Myou]

Fire, specifically because it is the one most usually resisted or immune to. That's why it's considered bad, after all.

Do you consider fire spells better than spells of other elements if you assume they won't be resisted? I'm just curious.

[Kobold-Bard]

Do you consider fire spells better than spells of other elements if you assume they won't be resisted? I'm just curious.

In my head there are more fire spells than the other types. So this, along with it being the most often resisted type makes this one seem to be the ideal choice.

Of course a level of Archmage solves this problem entirely.

[KillianHawkeye]

Why deal energy damage when you can deal Force damage?


Searing Spell is awesome, though, just for the ability to set fire creatures on fire. I never get tired of seeing those fire-immune creatures with shocked looks on their faces. :smallamused::smallwink:

[magic9mushroom]

Do you consider fire spells better than spells of other elements if you assume they won't be resisted? I'm just curious.

No. It's just that you'll get the most mileage out of making fire unresistable since it's the most resisted to start with.

[Myou]

Well then I guess Searing is the best choice even theoretically! :smallsmile:

Actually, Piercing has an odd caveat I just noticed - it doen't effect creatures with the Cold subtype, so Searing is definitely much better.

[magic9mushroom]

Well then I guess Searing is the best choice even theoretically! :smallsmile:

Actually, Piercing has an odd caveat I just noticed - it doen't effect creatures with the Cold subtype, so Searing is definitely much better.

Another reason White Dragonspawn is awesome. Not only are you immune to cold, you're immune to immunity-bypassing cold.

[Starbuck_II]

How come there is no Searing type metamagic for Electric/Lightning in D&D?

[Kobold-Bard]

How come there is no Searing type metamagic for Electric/Lightning in D&D?

Probably for the reasons already mentioned. There's not as many enemies that are immune to Electricity as there are immune to Fire, so they never felt one was necessary.

[Zeta Kai]

How come there is no Searing type metamagic for Electric/Lightning in D&D?

Because there was never a book concerned with electricity-based campaigns/settings (ZapSizzle? ShockBolt?).

[RagnaroksChosen]

I thought electricity and cold where reveresed?

[magic9mushroom]

How come there is no Searing type metamagic for Electric/Lightning in D&D?

You don't really need one, thanks to Consecrate Spell and Corrupt Spell. They do most of what Searing Spell does.

[Kulture]

I was under the impression that the hierarchy was:
1: Force
2: Sonic (nullified by silence, but causes heavy object damage)
3: Acid
4: electricity (Flesh golems, etc knock this down)
5: fire
6: cold (skeletons, liches, etc are very common)

and 3+4 are interchangable.

[Myou]

I was under the impression that the hierarchy was:
1: Force
2: Sonic (nullified by silence, but causes heavy object damage)
3: Acid
4: electricity (Flesh golems, etc knock this down)
5: fire
6: cold (skeletons, liches, etc are very common)

and 3+4 are interchangable.

Force isn't an elemental energy type.
If you want to list every damage type then there's stuff like holy and nonlethal damage, etc.

[DragoonWraith]

And fire is very definitely the worst of them, by far the most common thing to be resistant to.

I suppose in a very Undead-heavy campaign cold might be worse, but whatever.

[ScionoftheVoid]

1: Sonic
2: Acid
3: Electricity
4: Cold
5: Fire

That's about right, I think. Move fire up to 2 or 3 if Searing Spell is available. If Piercing Cold is available it goes up to 3. Most of the high-end ones ignore Spell Resistance more often and are not resisted easily, which is why fire with Searing Spell only goes up to about 2 (SR:Yes is still common on fire spells). As noted above Piercing Cold does not pierce cold immunity of the target if it has the Cold subtype, which hurts its rating a bit. Acid tends to bypass regeneration more often than other types, which is something to keep in mind (fire does so slightly less often, AFAIK).

[ericgrau]

As I understand it, people generally rank the energy types like this;

1. Sonic
2. Acid
3. Cold
4. Electricity
5. Fire

But if you could take a version of Searing Spell/Piercing Cold for any energy type you wanted, which type would you pick and why?

Incidentally this is also the reverse of the order on damage spell effectiveness in core. I think this is quite intentional: fire's advantage is that it's the most powerful. The advantage of the other types is that everybody knows to defend against fire. Then splatbooks mucked it all up with spells that are like these damage spells, but actually not... in ways that make your head hurt if you think about them too long. As for searing spell energy type, that means fire is the clear choice hands down: most damage (in core anyway), and you'll use that ability most often.

[BenTheJester]

The thing is, cold spells are usually better than electricity spells because they often come with nice side effects

However, cold energy damage is second worst

[Starbuck_II]

The thing is, cold spells are usually better than electricity spells because they often come with nice side effects

However, cold energy damage is second worst

There are more electric spells that cold in Core though.

[Eldariel]

Searing Spell is a +1 Metamagic tho. That's something to remember. Outside Arcane Thesis, it isn't nearly that impressive, though definitely useful.

[Xenogears]

Searing so that I can play Dark Schneider and burn a fire elemental.

[Myou]

Searing Spell is a +1 Metamagic tho. That's something to remember. Outside Arcane Thesis, it isn't nearly that impressive, though definitely useful.

Wow, you'd think that in three re-readings of the feat I'd have noticed a little thing like that. But nooooo. :smallannoyed:

It should be +0 in my opinion - other than single-spell builds it's not actually worth much and the price of a feat more than covers it.

[ericgrau]

Well, not compared to feats like energy substitution or to splatbook spells which are like fire spells even in shape, except a completely different energy type. >_<

So, if you allow those things it should be +0 metamagic. If not, then it really is worth something significant.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Minor offtopic: What book is Searing Spell in? :smallredface:

[Starbuck_II]

Minor offtopic: What book is Searing Spell in? :smallredface:

Sandstorm: also known as "It's Hot Out There" splatbook.
In constrast, Frostburn, "It's Cold Out There" splatbook.

[Terazul]

Sandstorm: also known as "It's Hot Out There" splatbook.
In constrast, Frostburn, "It's Cold Out There" splatbook.

Don't forget Stormwrack, "It's Wet Out There" splatbook.

[Kobold-Bard]

Don't forget Stormwrack, "It's Wet Out There" splatbook.

Also Dungeonscape: It's not out there.

[tyckspoon]

Don't forget Stormwrack, "It's Wet Out There" splatbook.

Also Cityscape "We're Not Out There" and Dungeonscape "It's Dark Down There", although those last few aren't quite as definite; It's Dark in particular also applies to any Underdark splats. And as ^ mentioned Dungeon has some overlap with City for naming.

[The Glyphstone]

So if Sandstorm is the fire/desert book, and called "It's Hot Outside", Frostburn is the ice/cold book and called 'It's Cold Outside'...

Acid could probably be Swamp/marsh terrain book...."It's Muddy Outside"?
Sonic...a book all about aerial travel and high-altitude encounters? "It's Hard to Breath Outside"?

[herrhauptmann]

Acid could probably be Swamp/marsh terrain book...."It's Muddy Outside"?
Sonic...a book all about aerial travel and high-altitude encounters? "It's Hard to Breath Outside"?

Acid: IT'S EATING THROUGH THE WALLS!
Sonic: I can't hear anything out there. or My ears hurt out there.
:smallamused:

[erikun]

It's Loud Outside?

Anyways, I'm a fan of cold (personal choice) and acid (typically deals more damage than sonic, full damage to objects, not as easily nullified). Acid is also fun with the Profession: Cooking skill. :smallamused:

[SaintRidley]

I'm going to be silly right now.

Fire. Why? Because between getting a domain (Fire) and Archmage for Mastery of Elements, I can cast Fire Storm.

And I can make it sonic.

http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/d/dragonforce/album-sonic-firestorm.jpg

:biggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/d/dragonforce/album-sonic-firestorm.jpg

:biggrin:

Energy sub Sonic (Firestorm) LOVE the idea!!! more since I got the disc in my Ipod :evilLaugh: (we need an evil laug smiley)

[ScionoftheVoid]

Energy sub Sonic (Firestorm) LOVE the idea!!! more since I got the disc in my Ipod :evilLaugh: (we need an evil laugh smiley)

Never listened to DragonForce so I can't comment on that, but where I've added emphasis I agree. Wholeheartedly. :evillaugh:

[Eldariel]

Well, not compared to feats like energy substitution or to splatbook spells which are like fire spells even in shape, except a completely different energy type. >_<

So, if you allow those things it should be +0 metamagic. If not, then it really is worth something significant.

There's a rather significant point in Searing Spell dealing damage to anything. High-level Outsiders tend to have immunities and resistances up the wazoo and same goes for high-level casters; Substituting or using alternate energy type might simply do nothing.

Searing Spell, you're guaranteed the damage. That and it doubles the damage to Fire-vulnerables. So it's stronger than Energy Substitution; I think +1 is about right for it. Energy Substitution only also works for one energy type chosen when you pick the feat. If you run into something immune to both, Fire and that you're out of luck.

And it's worth noting that out-of-core, Sonic-spells are still notably weaker than Fire/Lightning/Cold. Those 3 become rather equivalent (as it should be IHMO), but Acid is slightly weaker (though there are few comparable Acid-spells; still, Orb of Fire > other Orbs, for example, since the auxillary effect is the best). So the energy type pie doesn't really break down that much; Fire and Electricity become closer, but they're pretty close in Core anyways. Elec just lacks the huge single target damage spell Fire has in Scorching Ray.

[SaintRidley]

Sadly, Energy Sub doesn't let you get sonic, I don't think.

[Boci]

Sadly, Energy Sub doesn't let you get sonic, I don't think.

The 3.0 version does, but it was +1 MM.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Sadly, Energy Sub doesn't let you get sonic, I don't think.

Not the Complete Arcane one anyway. Archmage gets it though (Mastery of Elements).

Ninja'd. By what may be a Drizz't clone. (I haven't read much of Drizz't first-hand. From what I have read I can ask: Please don't change this)

[Boci]

Not the Complete Arcane one anyway. Archmage gets it though (Mastery of Elements).

Just checked my books. The one that allows sonic is Magic of Faerun, and it too is MM 0. Interesting how they made that weaker and the incantrix stronger...:smallannoyed:


Ninja'd. By what may be a Drizz't clone. (I haven't read much of Drizz't first-hand. From what I have read I can ask: Please don't change this)

My avatar is one provided by the sight undser the name drow, male. As for Drizz't, I read the crystal shard and it was an okay book, but I was suprised it was him and not the young barbarian king who got so much love.

[Starbuck_II]

Wulfgar? He went insane later, but he had a cool hammer.

[herrhauptmann]

Wulfgar? He went insane later
But he got better.
And he died before going insane. But he got better from that too.
And his hammer got better as the books went on. From returning, to a summoning.
And apparently it's possible to swing a 10 pound hammer really really fast, but without much force, so it's real easy to change direction midswing...
(sorry, Salvatore as an author began to bother me after the Crystal Shard)

[Boci]

Wulfgar? He had a cool hammer.

Yeah thats him. If I had just read the book, I think it would be him I would try cloning along with Weapons of Legacy. Skilgannon the Damned was the one who really made me think 2 weapon fighting is cool.

By the way, @ Starbuck_II and herrhauptmann, incase someone wants to read the books, you might want to put those small spoilers in a spoiler.

[deuxhero]

g:other: Force.

[ScionoftheVoid]

My avatar is one provided by the sight undser the name drow, male. As for Drizz't, I read the crystal shard and it was an okay book, but I was suprised it was him and not the young barbarian king who got so much love.

I should clarify. I have not read any material containing the character. I have however heard enough about him that the concept irks me. CG drow wielding scimitars, when my preferred alignment is LE and my preferred character type is a caster. He ruined Drow for me. I need to dream about Overlording now, go to a happy place where Drow are actually cool (and have killed any CG rebel types who have given up some of a Drow's inherent advantages and use a sub-optimal fighting style, you know, 'cause the Evil ones are competent).

[absolmorph]

I'm going to be silly right now.

Fire. Why? Because between getting a domain (Fire) and Archmage for Mastery of Elements, I can cast Fire Storm.

And I can make it sonic.

http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/d/dragonforce/album-sonic-firestorm.jpg

:biggrin:
Wouldn't Meteor Swarm be more appropriate for that?

[SaintRidley]

Wouldn't Meteor Swarm be more appropriate for that?

See album title.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Drizzt is wonderful. He and his comrades have so many personality flaws; it's great. Like a typical dysfunctional adventuring group, except in Whitewashed Memoir form (i.e. looking heroic and successful in the moment).

[Greenish]

a happy place where Drow are actually coolYou can recolour them all you want, but they'll still be elves. Sorry.

Anyhow, Wulfgar got plenty of love. In abyss. From Demons. Ouch.

[absolmorph]

See album title.
I noticed it.
But look at the actual picture. That's a big ball of fire.

[Lycanthromancer]

I noticed it.
But look at the actual picture. That's a big ball of fire.Wouldn't that be a...fire...ball...?

[Wings of Peace]

Fire. Because at the cost of one caster level for the dip into Sacred One of Kord I can turn all of the damage from my fire spells into Divine Damage.

[ericgrau]

Sadly, Energy Sub doesn't let you get sonic, I don't think.

This one does, at no adjustment to level:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#energySubstitution

You don't need to be a deity to use it, that's just the book it's in.



And it's worth noting that out-of-core, Sonic-spells are still notably weaker than Fire/Lightning/Cold. Those 3 become rather equivalent (as it should be IHMO), but Acid is slightly weaker (though there are few comparable Acid-spells; still, Orb of Fire > other Orbs, for example, since the auxillary effect is the best). So the energy type pie doesn't really break down that much; Fire and Electricity become closer, but they're pretty close in Core anyways. Elec just lacks the huge single target damage spell Fire has in Scorching Ray.
Everyone knows lightning bolt sucks compared to fireball, on the simple basis of shape. There was a thread with people wondering why you'd ever take it; and really the only reason is energy type. Cold gets hit much harder with a higher level and a lousy shape. While acid and sonic are still behind in splatbooks, they got a serious bump in the orb of cheese spells. Force too, really. So now there are 3 major energy type to worry about with only 2 protection spells available. And 3 more that while significantly weaker are still serious contenders. Lightning bolt already made it difficult enough to protect yourself, just enough to keep things interesting. But splatbooks throw protecting yourself out the window.

Coincidentally enough I recently had a "cohort" die to this problem, even with advanced warning of the encounter. He had more HP than me and fire protection, but to no avail. It's pure luck that I was protected from the right 2 types, as one immunity was racial.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Wouldn't that be a...fire...ball...?

Fireball doesn't fall, nor does it have what seems like a rock in the middle, nor does it emit anything other than a sphere.

Why are we so caught up on the details of this joke?

[absolmorph]

Fireball doesn't fall, nor does it have what seems like a rock in the middle, nor does it emit anything other than a sphere.

Why are we so caught up on the details of this joke?
We're geeks/nerds.
What did you expect?

[Eldariel]

Everyone knows lightning bolt sucks compared to fireball, on the simple basis of shape. There was a thread with people wondering why you'd ever take it; and really the only reason is energy type. Cold gets hit much harder with a higher level and a lousy shape. While acid and sonic are still behind in splatbooks, they got a serious bump in the orb of cheese spells. Force too, really. So now there are 3 major energy type to worry about with only 2 protection spells available. And 3 more that while significantly weaker are still serious contenders. Lightning bolt already made it difficult enough to protect yourself, just enough to keep things interesting. But splatbooks throw protecting yourself out the window.

Coincidentally enough I recently had a "cohort" die to this problem, even with advanced warning of the encounter. He had more HP than me and fire protection, but to no avail. It's pure luck that I was protected from the right 2 types, as one immunity was racial.

Often, when dealing with groups of mooks expecting arcane damage spells, Lightning Bolt can actually be more efficient than Fireball. Fireball is just an area spread, Lightning Bolt is a line; generally a spread-out formation of large number of creatures falls, out of necessity, into some manner of a line-pattern enabling a Bolt to hit all of them while Ball is just gonna get a half or so.

Yeah, Fireball's shape and range are usually superior, but there are definitely cases where you'd rather have Lightning Bolt than Fireball.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How come there is no Searing type metamagic for Electric/Lightning in D&D?

There is. It's called Born of Three Thunders :smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

Yeah, Fireball's shape and range are usually superior, but there are definitely cases where you'd rather have Lightning Bolt than Fireball.

Formations of spell-expecting units aside ...

Lightning Bolt, if it's cast in an open space, does hit a whole lot more squares than Fireball. This doesn't matter too much to typical adventurers (who fight groups of 20 or fewer critters at a time, and sometimes in the cramped quarters of a dungeon), but I can see why non-adventuring War Wizards in an army would prefer Lightning Bolt over Fireball for their goals of mowing down hundreds of enemy soldiers.

[Lycanthromancer]

Formations of spell-expecting units aside ...

Lightning Bolt, if it's cast in an open space, does hit a whole lot more squares than Fireball.But fireball hits far, far, far, far more cubes.

Also, Widen means you can double the width of the lightning bolt, OR you can have a double-length bolt, with each half on either side of you (such as ----o---- ). Unfortunately, you have to both Widen and Enlarge a lightning bolt to reach 240' out from you, as the area and the range both limit how far it can reach. Something similar goes with cone of cold.

[Draz74]

But fireball hits far, far, far, far more cubes.

Does it? I haven't worked out the math, but that surprises me. Got any math to back you up?

If you're right, well, then that puts Fireball back in the superior position for non-adventuring War Wizards ... if the hordes of enemies they're expecting to fight also fly.

EDIT: Actually, that's probably true anyway, just because formations of flying things are much more likely to be spherically-bunched rather than linearly-bunched.

[Lycanthromancer]

Does it? I haven't worked out the math, but that surprises me. Got any math to back you up?

If you're right, well, then that puts Fireball back in the superior position for non-adventuring War Wizards ... if the hordes of enemies they're expecting to fight also fly.

EDIT: Actually, that's probably true anyway, just because formations of flying things are much more likely to be spherically-bunched rather than linearly-bunched.On a 2d plane, a fireball hits 44 squares (20 ft radius circle), but it's a 3d sphere, so it gets a lot more than that. A 120' x 5' lightning bolt only hits 24 squares (which is 24 cubes, since those are the only spaces it hits).

You see, si?

[Draz74]

On a 2d plane, a fireball hits 44 squares (20 ft radius circle), but it's a 3d sphere, so it gets a lot more than that. A 120' x 5' lightning bolt only hits 24 squares (which is 24 cubes, since those are the only spaces it hits).

You see, si?

Ah, I found the disconnect in my brain. Yeah, I got the 3d-shape vs. 2d-shape thing all along. I was just thinking for some reason that Lightning Bolt, like Fireball, had a Long range, and was therefore hitting at least 120 squares/cubes if it didn't get prematurely curbed by a wall.

Also, can you point me at where the rules say whether a line affects a square if it just goes through that square's edge? Because most people I've played with say "it does," which effectively means that a lightning bolt is more like 10 feet wide rather than 5 feet wide. (Still loses pitifully in the 3d-arena, though, with the 120-foot limit on its range.)

I'm curious to know exactly how many cubes a Fireball affects. But I'm pretty sure it's a lot less than the 480 cubes my imaginary Long-range Lightning Bolt can affect. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Also, can you point me at where the rules say whether a line affects a square if it just goes through that square's edge? Because most people I've played with say "it does," which effectively means that a lightning bolt is more like 10 feet wide rather than 5 feet wide. (Still loses pitifully in the 3d-arena, though, with the 120-foot limit on its range.)


I don't think it says that, exactly, but what it does say is that you actually target grid intersections and then draw out the line from intersection to intersection. Which means along a straight-line path you're actually tracing the path of the bolt along square edges, and the 5-foot width covers the two squares to either side of those edges. Gets a little weirder figuring out diagonal paths.

[Lycanthromancer]

I don't think it says that, exactly, but what it does say is that you actually target grid intersections and then draw out the line from intersection to intersection. Which means along a straight-line path you're actually tracing the path of the bolt along square edges, and the 5-foot width covers the two squares to either side of those edges. Gets a little weirder figuring out diagonal paths.It's a 120' x 5' line, meaning it's 5' wide. Not really sure what's difficult about it.

[Fendalus]

It's a 120' x 5' line, meaning it's 5' wide. Not really sure what's difficult about it.

It never directly specifies the width of the line, you just draw a line connecting two intersections. any square that the line touches a corner or side of is hit. This leads to a width of 10' when firing along one of the lines on the grid.

Thus, it's line coverage is 48 squares, and a straight up vertical blast would hit 96 cubes.

No clue on the number of cubes fireball would hit though.

[Noedig]

If one took the Metamagic feat sculpt spell (+1) you could turn the line of lightning into a 20' ball of lighting. Or 4, 10' cubes of lightning, or a 40' cone of lightning, or a 120' line (lol?).
Why be constrained to the shapes the spell description tells you?

[ericgrau]

Line spells hit creatures standing on both sides of the line, and in fact lightning bolt is the example they use when explaining it. So that's 48 squares. A fireball hits 44 squares according to the diagram in my DMG. So even in a war situation a fireball hits about the same number of enemies. And even then a fireball may be more likely to hit more creatures in practice, as 120 feet front to back is an awfully large company of troops. As for flyers, I don't expect them to be very well clustered.

Though really in war I'd be casting spells with even larger areas like pyrotechnics or widened fireballs. Or maybe long lasting buffs if I was somehow certain the targets wouldn't die before the buffs could be long lasting.

[Fendalus]

If one took the Metamagic feat sculpt spell (+1) you could turn the line of lightning into a 20' ball of lighting. Or 4, 10' cubes of lightning, or a 40' cone of lightning, or a 120' line (lol?).
Why be constrained to the shapes the spell description tells you?

Because occasionally you don't have a spell slot for that that +1 metamagiced blasting spell.

[Draz74]

True, both spells pretty much suck in practice against flying armies. Actually, in general in a wartype situation, you're probably better off ditching both spells in favor of spells with bigger areas of effect or moving areas of effect whenever possible (Cloudkill!, Fire Storm come to mind, with Earthquake, Maw of Chaos and Meteor Swarm at high levels).

[ericgrau]

Eh, once they see the cloudkill they'll be scattering. So it's really just a 20 foot radius spell that's as likely or less likely to kill, plus a source of disorganization. Earthquake's effect on open terrain is pretty meh, and needs to be awfully well timed with an assault to gain any benefit. Meteor swarm is great though.

I still love larger spells like pyrotechnics and sleet storm for war (well, and indoors too if I can manage it). In wide open situations like that they are made of win.

[Draz74]

I still love larger spells like pyrotechnics and sleet storm for war (well, and indoors too if I can manage it). In wide open situations like that they are made of win.

I should have remembered that Sleet Storm is a great example of one of these huge effects, after my party's druid used it in that one battle with a giant ...

[Infernum]

To my knowledge, a fireball fills thirty three 10-10-10 foot cubes.

[magic9mushroom]

This one does, at no adjustment to level:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#energySubstitution

You don't need to be a deity to use it, that's just the book it's in.

Is 3.0. Is no longer legal.

[sonofzeal]

Is 3.0. Is no longer legal.
Is 3.0. Is legal unless updated.

[magic9mushroom]

Is 3.0. Is legal unless updated.

Is Complete Arcane feat with same name. Is updated. Is no longer legal.

[Lycanthromancer]

It never directly specifies the width of the line, you just draw a line connecting two intersections. any square that the line touches a corner or side of is hit. This leads to a width of 10' when firing along one of the lines on the grid.

Thus, it's line coverage is 48 squares, and a straight up vertical blast would hit 96 cubes.

No clue on the number of cubes fireball would hit though.That's a 10' wide line, not a 5' wide line. Check lightning bolt's area. It's not 10' wide.

[Xenogears]

Eh, once they see the cloudkill they'll be scattering. So it's really just a 20 foot radius spell that's as likely or less likely to kill, plus a source of disorganization.

Also unless your army consists of nothing but Warforged and the other army does not then its as likely to kill your troops...

[Greenish]

True, both spells pretty much suck in practice against flying armies. Actually, in general in a wartype situation, you're probably better off ditching both spells in favor of spells with bigger areas of effect or moving areas of effect whenever possible (Cloudkill!, Fire Storm come to mind, with Earthquake, Maw of Chaos and Meteor Swarm at high levels).Flying armies? Control Weather -> Tornado, thunderstorm, sleet storm, hailstorm, fog, sleet, frigid cold, blizzard or hurricane-force winds.
:smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

That's a 10' wide line, not a 5' wide line. Check lightning bolt's area. It's not 10' wide.

It's not 5' wide either. It's just a "120-ft. line."

I've never before now seen the words "10' wide line." And I think Fendalus was right, though I'd be happy to be shown conclusive evidence either way. (Rules Compendium, anyone?)

EDIT: Huh, now that people are talking about it, maybe I do remember "10-ft wide line" existing back in 3.0 days. But I'd completely forgotten about it.

[ericgrau]

That's a 10' wide line, not a 5' wide line. Check lightning bolt's area. It's not 10' wide.

It still hits creatures in a 10 foot wide area as it is normally targeted along the line between those squares. It is the very spell used as an example when line spells are explained. Confusing, I know. IMO they shouldn't have even given lightning bolt a width as it only misleads people. EDIT: The SRD version doesn't seem to have a width, but I could have sworn the Player's Handbook said lightning bolts are 5 feet wide. Meh, I don't want to walk to my book.

[2xMachina]

Why not stick it on the border of 4 cubes and fry 4 5" cubes at once, giving it 20" width? (10's on height though)

[The Glyphstone]

Is Complete Arcane feat with same name. Is updated. Is no longer legal.


Is Complete Arcane feat with the same name and exactly the same effect. Is updated. Is no longer legal...but since it's the exact same feat - effects, lack of level increase, limitation to 1 energy type per feat iteration...does it matter? The only thing they added is that a Substituted spell gains the appropriate energy subtype.

[Eldariel]

It still hits creatures in a 10 foot wide area as it is normally targeted along the line between those squares. It is the very spell used as an example when line spells are explained. Confusing, I know. IMO they shouldn't have even given lightning bolt a width as it only misleads people. EDIT: The SRD version doesn't seem to have a width, but I could have sworn the Player's Handbook said lightning bolts are 5 feet wide. Meh, I don't want to walk to my book.

You're probably thinking of 3.0 Bolt where you could decide whether it was 5' wide at 100'+10'/level or 10' wide at 50'+5'/level. Frankly, I was living in the past too. I never read the updated one until just now; I've always cast it as in 3.0.

3.5's PHB description is pretty identical to the SRD-version.

[Fendalus]

You're probably thinking of 3.0 Bolt where you could decide whether it was 5' wide at 100'+10'/level or 10' wide at 50'+5'/level. Frankly, I was living in the past too. I never read the updated one until just now; I've always cast it as in 3.0.

3.5's PHB description is pretty identical to the SRD-version.

Yeah, I was using my PHB to answer that. Page references are 176 for line spell rules, and 248 for Bolt. SRD pages are Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) and Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm). Oddly enough, the PHB mentions "any square the line touches or passes through", while the SRD only mentions "any square it passes through". The illustration in the PHB supports the wording in it, while the SRD (as always) lacks an illustration.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, basically it is 3.5 and it does hit a path 2 squares wide at the full range of the spell. The 5' width may have been 3.0; I'm still to lazy to get my PH.