[4e] two new at-wills for dual-wielders

[Faleldir]

With the release of Martial Power 2, Rangers get another at-will that requires two weapons. But what about Tempest Fighters and Whirling Barbarians?

Tempest Trap
Fighter Attack 1
Useless flavor text.
At-Will, Martial, Weapon
Standard action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W](main) + STR damage. If the target provokes an opportunity attack or Combat Challenge attack before your next turn, that attack deals 1[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 21: 2[W](main) + STR damage, 2[W](off-hand) damage.

Whirling Pounce
Barbarian Attack 1
Useless flavor text.
At-Will, Primal, Weapon
Standard action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Effect: Before attacking, you may shift 1 square.
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W](main) + STR damage.
Level 21: 2[W](main) + STR damage.
Special: If your attack roll is at least 5 higher than the target's AC, you deal 1[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 11: 2[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 21: 3[W](off-hand) extra damage.

[Camelot]

The fighter power sounds like a cool idea, though maybe use Dex mod to AC instead of Str.

However, the barbarian power is way overpowered. That's encounter power damage as an at-will with no penalty. If you want to keep the damage, I'd say giving a penalty to attack rolls, requiring two attack rolls (like ranger), or granting combat advantage or something like that. I'd also say that if you keep them as one attack roll to only allow using the enhancements and effects of one magic weapon; using two for one attack is just broken, even if the enhancement bonuses don't stack, which they shouldn't.

Hope this helps!

[Faleldir]

It did help, thank you!

I decided to reduce the damage directly. Assuming your off-hand weapon is 1d10, it's roughly equivalent to Howling Strike.

Wait, you apologize? Does this mean it's underpowered now?

[Camelot]

Ah, yes, I apologize. I wasn't comparing it to other barbarian at-wills, just to my general first impression of an at-will. I forgot that's where they hide their striker damage. Very nice!

Edit: No, I was apologizing for not remembering that barbarian's have that extra damage die in some of their at-wills. With that in mind, an extra 1[W], especially an off-hand weapon, should be balanced well.

[Yakk]

With the release of Martial Power 2, Rangers get another at-will that requires two weapons. But what about Tempest Fighters and Whirling Barbarians?

Tempest Defense
Fighter Attack 1
At-Will, Martial, Weapon
Standard action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + STR damage.
Effect: You add STR to AC against one adjacent enemy until the start of your next turn.
Level 21: 2[W] + STR damage.
At will effect granting +Str to AC? (even to one target)

That is far too good. +8 to 10 to AC in epic? At-will? Effect?!

And that is on a target that you get a free attack on if it attacks someone else?

This looks closer to an encounter power power level -- it might even be too good for that!

Whirling Pounce
Barbarian Attack 1
At-Will, Primal, Weapon
Standard action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W](main) + 1[W](off-hand) + STR -2 damage.
Special: If you are Raging, you may move DEX squares before attacking.
Level 11: 1[W](main) + 2[W](off-hand) + STR -3 damage.
Level 21: 1[W](main) + 3[W](off-hand) + STR -4 damage.
Meh. The penalty feels a bit fiddly. And it is honestly a bit too similar to existing barbarian powers, replacing the extra +1dY with the extra [W]-2 damage.

How about:
Attack: Str vs AC. Make two attack rolls, and take the best for both weapons.
Hit Both: [W] (main) + [W] (off-hand). Increase to [W] (main) + 2[W] (off-hand) at level 11, and 2[W] (main) + 2[W] (off-hand) at level 21.
Hit Main Only: [W] (main). Increase to 2[W] (main) at level 21.
Hit Offhand Only: [W] (off-hand). Increase to 2[W] (off-hand) at level 21.
Special: If you are raging, you may use this in place of a basic attack on a charge. If you do so, you deal an extra Dex bonus damage a hit.

You are attacking with two weapons -- rolling two attack dice seems like a good idea.

Then, we strip off your str bonus to damage from the attack, to make up for the accuracy.

I stole your "increase off-hand damage at level 11" trick, but at level 21 it should be 2W of each (otherwise, you get the perverse incentive to use a high-accuracy primary weapon, and a low-accuracy high-damage offhand weapon, which seems a bit cheesy).

Problem: This might be too good a power. I'd want to crunch the numbers on this first...

[Faleldir]

At will effect granting +Str to AC? (even to one target)

That is far too good. +8 to 10 to AC in epic? At-will? Effect?!
Can it really be that high in Epic? Wow, I thought 4e had no ability buffs! I'm so ashamed!
I have another idea, inspired by Riposte Strike:

Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W] + STR damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you may make a secondary attack as an immediate interrupt.
Secondary attack: Strength vs. Reflex (off-hand)
Hit: The triggering attack misses.
Level 21: 2[W] + STR damage.


You are attacking with two weapons -- rolling two attack dice seems like a good idea.
The unique thing about Whirling Barbarians is that they don't make off-hand attack rolls. They don't even have to be proficient with their off-hand weapon, so that's not an option.

[Yakk]

Can it really be that high in Epic? Wow, I thought 4e had no ability buffs! I'm so ashamed!
At level 4,8,11,14,18,21,24,28 you get a +1 to at least 2 stats. This sums to +8 from level 1 to level 30.

Many epic destinies add another +2 to one or two stats, bringing the buff up to +10 by end of epic. You start with 16 to 20, making the epic end-point stat 24 to 30, for a bonus of +7 to +10 to your primary attack stats expected.


I have another idea, inspired by Riposte Strike:

Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W] + STR damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you may make a secondary attack as an immediate interrupt.
Secondary attack: Strength vs. Reflex (off-hand)
Hit: The triggering attack misses.
Level 21: 2[W] + STR damage.
Probably still too good, but not as good as the first one.

It also discourages attacking the fighter. That is more of a striker toy than a defender toy (melee strikers have powers that punish you for attacking the striker -- defenders have toys that punish you for attacking anyone except the defender).



The unique thing about Whirling Barbarians is that they don't make off-hand attack rolls. They don't even have to be proficient with their off-hand weapon, so that's not an option.
Heh. Is that just an artefact of the pattern of power design, or a specific design decision?

In any case, you can change it to:
Two Rolls Hit: [W] (main-hand) + [W] (off-hand)
(upgrades to 2[W] off-hand at 11, and 2[W] main-hand at 21).
Only One Roll Hits: [W] (main-hand)
(upgrades to 2[W] main-hand at 21).
Raging: Add dex to damage. Can use on a charge.

25%: 2[W]+Misc
50%: [W]+Misc

vs
50% [W]+str+1d6+Misc

1W+.75M vs .5W+.5S+1.75+.5M
.5W+.25M vs .5S+1.75
W tends to be about 6 or so. Str tends to be 4+L/6 or so.
3+.25M vs 3.75+L/12
.25M vs .75+L/12
M vs 3+L/3

So, outside of rage, ignoring the damage upgrades, this ends up being in about the same ballpark as Howling strike damage-wise. It is more accurate, which is a perk over howling strike (even with identical average damage), and it creates more crits which is another perk.

[Faleldir]

For the Fighter power, if I used my original idea and made the AC bonus a fixed number, would that still be too much?

[AgentPaper]

Sleeping Blade-------------------------Fighter Attack 1
You strike your foe with a flashy attack, causing him to lose
sight of your second hand; a fatal mistake.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard action---------Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage, and the next attack you make against
-the target with your off-hand weapon before the start of
-your next turn deals an additional 1[W] + Dexterity
-modifier damage if it hits.
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.

[Faleldir]

That's great, but too far from my idea. I would really prefer if it had a defensive benefit.

[Camelot]

Maybe it could grant the defensive benefit to an adjacent ally, thus encouraging the monster to attack the fighter. Defensive benefit + fighter's function = what you want?

[Faleldir]

Isn't that what marking does? Personally, I don't like the "hurt me more" mentality of 4e Fighters. If you want to encourage enemies to attack you, why bother increasing your defenses at all?

A Fighter at-will that helps you avoid damage without self-healing exists in official game material. It's called Resolute Shield.

[Yakk]

You want to encourage enemies to attack you and not your allies.

The balance against this is that you have a boatload of HP, a darn good AC, and lots of healing surges.

The Resolute shield option is (A) on the more defensive of the fighter options (shield user), (B) requires a hit, (C) adds a secondary stat to damage resistance (which is something that gets less effective, per point, as you gain levels).

Your power (A) is on the more offensive of the fighter options (tempest), (B) is an effect, (C) adds to defence against a d20 roll, which does not get less effective per point as you gain levels.

...

For an amusing one:
One-Two Slice
"Set them up, and ..."
Requires: One melee weapon in each hand.
Range: Melee
Primary Attack: Str vs AC (main hand)
Primary Hit: [W] (main hand) (increases to 2[W] at level 21), and the first time the target makes an attack before the end of your next turn, you can make the secondary attack as a free interrupt:
Secondary Effect: Shift your Dex modifier squares to a location no further from the target before the secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Str vs Reflex (off hand)
Secondary Hit: [W] (off hand) (increases to 2[W] at level 21).

A few notes:
1> This is strictly weaker than Twin Strike, as the secondary attack doesn't go off unless the primary attack hits.
2> I made the secondary attack reflex, to help compensate for this, and added the shift.
3> It goes off regardless of who the target attacks. The target can avoid the rider by moving far away from the fighter (more than dex bonus), but that gets tricky (and probably involves other punishment).

The resulting power is a bit too complex. It might still be too strong -- it deals two different taps on the same target, which is easy to exploit, but they are at least chained. The "shift your dex modifier" is also darn good as an at-will.

Imagine using it on an opponent who is attacking you -- you get to shift around to the critters other side if it attacks you back!

I'd want to see it in play.

But it does match your idea -- I actually removed restrictions on it even. :) I brought the damage down a tad (getting rid of the +str) as well.

[Faleldir]

You make a convincing argument. I'll use a variant of AgentPaper's idea.

[AgentPaper]

For an amusing one:
One-Two Slice
"Set them up, and ..."
Requires: One melee weapon in each hand.
Range: Melee
Primary Attack: Str vs AC (main hand)
Primary Hit: [W] (main hand) (increases to 2[W] at level 21), and the first time the target makes an attack before the end of your next turn, you can make the secondary attack as a free interrupt:
Secondary Effect: Shift your Dex modifier squares to a location no further from the target before the secondary attack.
Secondary Attack: Str vs Reflex (off hand)
Secondary Hit: [W] (off hand) (increases to 2[W] at level 21).

That looks very similar to mine, except that it lets you shift and the secondary damage is it's own attack, so -dex mod and + static mods, as well as needing another attack roll. However, as an immediate interrupt, it's also negatively synergistic with the combat challenge attack, which is also an immediate interrupt. It'll only be worthwhile to use the secondary attack if he attacks you, which doesn't provoke the combat challenge attack, since a MBA is strictly better than this attack's interrupt attack.

Which means that this actually discourages your enemies from attacking you. That's why I made the damage on mine a rider on OA damage, so that it would make OAs, which are already functioning to convince the monster to not attack the fighter's allies, more powerful.

[Camelot]

He actually had it as a free interrupt, probably with the fighter's combat challenge in mind.

If it were an opportunity action, that would cause a lot of confusion. If the monster was next to you and made an attack against an ally, could you finish off this at-will and attack it from Combat Challenge? Could you shift, attack for 1[W], and then also make a melee basic attack? Would you have to choose?

I think a power that covers an ally would be useful, thematic, and easily implemented.

[Yakk]

*nod* -- I intended for the follow-up attack to happen, barring the target doing absolutely nothing, with no cost.

Immediate actions consume your immediate action, while free actions do not.

I had the follow-up attack be delayed, and have the shift in it, in order to give it a bit more bang for the buck. You get to shift (dex mod) squares to any spot adjacent to the critter you are attacking.

In Paper's version, the follow-up attack will generally not occur, unless you have a ranged opponent pinned against a wall.

Most creatures marked by fighters don't try to move away (as that provokes a boosted OA, which if it hits makes the move wasted), and most ranged opponents will burn a shift and move if the threatened OA is a 2[W]+Str+Dex one on a ranged attack, vs a 1[W]+Str one on a shift.

In effect, my ability ends up looking mostly like:
Str vs AC
Hit: [W] main-hand, shift your dex mod, and make a secondary attack
Str vs Reflex
Hit: [W] off-hand

with extra fluff to delay the shift/secondary attack until the opponent makes an attack (which gives the opponent a faint hope of avoiding the secondary attack).

[AgentPaper]

the shift in particular seems much too powerful for an at-will. I'd make that shift 1 square, instead.

And you're right, it might be a good idea to change the secondary damage on my power to ride on the "next attack you make before the start of your next turn" instead of just opportunity attacks, which makes it both more versatile and more likely to come into play. That way, it could ride on an opportunity attack, a combat challenge attack, or even a second attack you make, if you spend an action point or have a minor action attack, which fits in nicely with the tempest fighter being a striker as well as a defender.

Edit: Changed it above to match this.

[Faleldir]

I have a question for the above posers who are better at math than me.
How often can you expect to beat an enemy's AC by at least 4?

[AgentPaper]

I have a question for the above posers who are better at math than me.
How often can you expect to beat an enemy's AC by at least 4?

Average AC for a level 4 monster is 18. By then you should have: at least an 18 in your attack stat, a +1 weapon, at least a +2 proficiency bonus, and +2 from half level. Which ends up with a +9 to-hit, which means a little more often than not. If you have a 20 in your attack stat, a +2 weapon, +3 proficiency, a +1 bonus from your class or feats somehow, and flanking that goes up to +14, which means you'll hit 80% of the time. Most characters fall somewhere in-between, so about 60-70% of the time.

Against higher level monsters, you have about a 5% higher chance per level above you to miss, so if they're 4 levels above you, you should have a 40-50% chance to hit.

[Faleldir]

I see. I'm asking this because I found a way to make Yakk's idea simpler.

Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W](main) + STR damage.
Level 21: 2[W](main) + STR damage.
Special: If you beat the target's AC by at least 4, you deal 1[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 11: 2[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 21: 3[W](off-hand) extra damage.

So if a 60% chance to hit is typical, I have a 40% chance to add extra dice. Maybe I should bring it down to 35%.
With a 1d10 weapon, I think the average damage is very close to Howling Strike.

[AgentPaper]

I see. I'm asking this because I found a way to make Yakk's idea simpler.

Attack: Strength vs. AC (main)
Hit: 1[W](main) + STR damage.
Level 21: 2[W](main) + STR damage.
Special: If you beat the target's AC by at least 4, you deal 1[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 11: 2[W](off-hand) extra damage.
Level 12: 3[W](off-hand) extra damage.

So if a 60% chance to hit is typical, I have a 40% chance to add extra dice. Maybe I should bring it down to 35%.
With a 1d10 weapon, I think the average damage is very close to Howling Strike.

I think you meant level 21 in the part I bolded, not 12.

However, increasing the extra damage at all seems kind of overpowered. I mean, this essentially becomes a 5[W] at-will ability, even if you do need to beat their AC by a bit more than normal. That's more damage than most encounter powers do at that level. 3[W] is already pretty good.

If you really want to see barbarians dual-wielding instead of going for a big weapon, you should make a whole other build for it, instead of just adding in an at-will.

[Faleldir]

What's the difference? Howling Strike has 5 dice.
I want the chance of massive damage to be slightly less than 2/3 the chance of hitting at all.
(5.5) * 3 * 2/3 = 11
(3.5) * 3 = 10.5

[AgentPaper]

What's the difference? Howling Strike has 5 dice.

Oh, right, barbarians have crazy-powerful at-wills, don't they? Forgot about that.

Edit: There IS a two-weapon barbarian path. Man, I need to learn more about barbarians... consider any advice I give on them null and void here. :smalltongue:

[Faleldir]

Before I use this in a game, does anyone have a problem with the "shift DEX squares" part?

[Reynard]

The barbarian power makes whirling rend redundant.

@ Faleldir:

the shift in particular seems much too powerful for an at-will. I'd make that shift 1 square, instead.

[Faleldir]

The barbarian power makes whirling rend redundant.
Hardly. It's still overpowered, but sometimes you want to hit two enemies at once.


the shift in particular seems much too powerful for an at-will. I'd make that shift 1 square, instead.
The shift is already 1 square. If you say it doesn't need an extra effect from raging, I will trust you.