OOTS 704 - The Discussion Thread. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zevox

2010-02-21, 06:24 PM

Well now, that was an interesting comic. Certainly puts the last couple in perspective. Very interesting to see what the afterlife for the Dark One's faithful is like, too.

Nice ending jokes as well.

And yeah, where Xykon is will definitely be the new big thing to speculate about. My first guess, just as a shot in the dark: he went to see the Oracle.

And yeah, there's something off about the images, particularly with Redcloak's face. I think it seems like some of whatever filter or format or whatever it is the Giant uses for the Crayons panels got applied to the regular ones, too.

Zevox

veti

2010-02-21, 06:24 PM

Roy remembers "bits" of the afterlife. Specifically, I seem to recall, the bits that take place outside the Big Golden Gates. I guess Jirix never got as far as the BGG-equivalent for whatever plane that was.

zyphyr

2010-02-21, 06:24 PM

Interesting afterlife for the gobbos

PirateMonk

2010-02-21, 06:25 PM

I think this is the first time we've seen the Dark One outside of Start of Darkness.

Funny how Jirix remembers the afterlife, but Roy doesn't...

What makes you think Roy doesn't remember?

Edit: Okay, reread around the resurrection. Never mind.

Half-blood

2010-02-21, 06:26 PM

hm. that should solve at least one Controversy surrounding the multiverse system in ootsland.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-21, 06:26 PM

Perhaps they're age lines.. our little redcloak is finally growing up?

Water-Smurf

2010-02-21, 06:27 PM

So the Dark One is having doubts about Redcloak? Hmm.

And what is with the speckles on his face?

Temotei

2010-02-21, 06:28 PM

So the Dark One is having doubts about Redcloak? Hmm.

And what is with the speckles on his face?

Sweat? :smalleek:

Salty

2010-02-21, 06:30 PM

Hm...That errand seems ominous...

The Giant

2010-02-21, 06:30 PM

Elfin

2010-02-21, 06:30 PM

I kind of doubt that would happen in a few minutes, though.
Thanks for fixing that.

Anyway, very interesting.

Elfey

2010-02-21, 06:33 PM

pflare

2010-02-21, 06:33 PM

Awesome comic

Ezlo

2010-02-21, 06:34 PM

The dots are a side-effect of reducing the comic's colors to fit the GIF format. I doesn't usually happen because there are usually less than 256 colors in an OOTS comic, but the crayons changes that. (Please, no new arguments about how I shouldn't be using GIFs anymore.)

I didn't notice them until they were pointed out here, I'll see if I can fix it so that they're not noticeable and repost the comic.

Take your time, I kinda like the look. It's like Redcloak has a bit of stubble going on. It's kinda all over his face but still.

Also, thanks for more crayon art! For some reason that always makes me happy.

CrimsonAngel

2010-02-21, 06:36 PM

Wow, I loved the last panel. :smallbiggrin:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-02-21, 06:37 PM

Well, we now know what happens to the adult goblinoids when they die, but what about those who can't fight and died?

Aurorax

2010-02-21, 06:37 PM

Got to love the direct approach. Nothing like the oracle...

Mant

2010-02-21, 06:38 PM

Cute one.

.

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 06:40 PM

Also, thanks for more crayon art! For some reason that always makes me happy.

I'll have to second this, the crayon art is awesome. Now, as to where Xykon is... I like the Oracle theory, but come to think of it, didn't he dissapear somewhere in SoD? Where did he go that time? I'll have to get the book back out.

CrimsonAngel

2010-02-21, 06:40 PM

Wait, so is Team Peregrine dead? :smallfrown:

Excalibur

2010-02-21, 06:40 PM

VERY nice! I like where this is going.
And I'm curious to see what Xykon's secret trip is all about.

itaibn

2010-02-21, 06:43 PM

A bit obvious in retrospect, but it seems Redcloak isn't naive enough to think Xykon won't mess this up somehow.

npc revolution

2010-02-21, 06:43 PM

great comic, nice to directly(ish) meet the goblin deity in the online comics.

It's also nice to be on the front page of the thread. = D

[edit] oh gosh darn it all. =(

denthor

2010-02-21, 06:45 PM

Part of the plan was to get equal footing and build a society. So it seems like if they stay and rebuild Azure City as their own they will get an idea of what it takes to do that.

The Giant

2010-02-21, 06:46 PM

OK, speckle problem should be fixed.

Turns out I can't use the gradient that appears when the MITD is not under his umbrella in the same comic as crayon drawings without major color screw-ups. Easily enough fixed, I just told the MITD to pick up his umbrella.

Zxo

2010-02-21, 06:47 PM

Good one. Cuts the speculation on The Dark One not supporting the specific path chosen by Redcloak (I was wondering about that myself), and I think we can assume Jirix doesn't lie. As for remembering the afterlife, a god can probably make someone remember it if he wants to use him as a messenger.

What can Xykon be doing?

CoffeeIncluded

2010-02-21, 06:47 PM

Thanks. :smallsmile:

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 06:47 PM

Brendan

2010-02-21, 06:48 PM

VERY nice! I like where this is going.
And I'm curious to see what Xykon's secret trip is all about.

my guess is that it has to do with tsutsikos job earlier.

Great comic. Its good to see that evil characters can have good afterlifes, too in this world...

shadowxknight

2010-02-21, 06:48 PM

"Don't screw this up"

Hahahaha.

dps

2010-02-21, 06:48 PM

Wait, so is Team Peregrine dead? :smallfrown:

No, obviously the reference to an elven attack was when V tried to take out Xykon--that's when O-Chul killed Jirix and escaped.

Team Perigrine is probably just quietly contacting the resistance and scouting out the situation. Remember, the cloister is still in effect, so they had no real idea about exactly what was happening within the city.

Gift Jeraff

2010-02-21, 06:49 PM

Kish

2010-02-21, 06:49 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 06:50 PM

Wait, so is Team Peregrine dead? :smallfrown:

I don't think team evil noticed Team Peregrine yet. I doubt The Giant would skip over something like that, it seemed important.

SPoD

2010-02-21, 06:51 PM

The Dark One may be playing Redcloak in a sense. Redcloak is intended to do the plan, but only to either give a distraction from Jirix or to act as ultimately back up to Jirix's actions in establishing a Goblin Nation.

Funny, I read it in the exact opposite way, since its obvious the "one true prophet" is Redcloak.

I took the Dark One's message to mean, "Yeah, it's great that you founded this cool goblin nation and all, but that doesn't mean you can quit The Plan. Better hop to it. Leave this stuff to the second-stringers like Jirix."

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 06:53 PM

Good comic, although the way Jirix talks about the afterlife makes it sound like it's his first time dead--contradicting the commentary that said he's the same guy Miko killed outside the throne room. Well, I suppose there would be no point in saying "so, this happened again."

Also, I kinda get the feeling that this is the end of the Team Evil sequence, leaving us with suspense regarding Xykon's trip, Redcloak's relationship with the Dark One, and the ritual Xykon gave Tsukiko.

Although I like Redcloaks character development, I must say that I'm dying to see what happens with the Order of the Stick. In particular, what's with the eye that was looking at the kitty? So even if this is the last Team Evil strip in a while I won't mind.

dps

2010-02-21, 06:54 PM

What if Xykon actually abandoned them and plans to complete the ritual with the new chick (forgot her name, she runs around with a Xykon doll)? Or what if the new chick found about the fact that the ritual (SoD spoiler, at least I think it is)
Won't do what Xykon thinks it will?

Cause he needs his phylactery first, among other things.

Which just adds to the mistery of his errand. What would be so important that he'd put it ahead of finding the phylactery?

ScottishDragon

2010-02-21, 06:56 PM

What happened to all the goblins in the crowd?i know there werent that may but the pas couple of comics they've mysteriously dissapeared as well.

otherwise i luv comix with crayon drawings in them because they are awesome like that.

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 06:57 PM

What happened to all the goblins in the crowd?i know there werent that may but the pas couple of comics they've mysteriously dissapeared as well.

I think it's the angle. They're still there but we don't see all of them.

Zxo

2010-02-21, 07:02 PM

Is the title a quote from somewhere else? I feel like I heard it somewhere, but I couldn't identify it and Google search is showing just the links to this OoTS episode.

SPoD

2010-02-21, 07:05 PM

Is the title a quote from somewhere else? I feel like I heard it somewhere, but I couldn't identify it and Google search is showing just the links to this OoTS episode.

It's a play on the phrase "Dead men tell no tales."

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 07:05 PM

Is the title a quote from somewhere else? I feel like I heard it somewhere, but I couldn't identify it and Google search is showing just the links to this OoTS episode.

Sounds familiar to me too, but the only similar quote google turns up is "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid", which is apparently some movie from the 1980s. Can someone else help us here?

It's a play on the phrase "Dead men tell no tales."
I got ninja'd.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-02-21, 07:05 PM

Is the title a quote from somewhere else? I feel like I heard it somewhere, but I couldn't identify it and Google search is showing just the links to this OoTS episode.

Dead men tell no tales.

Silverraptor

2010-02-21, 07:15 PM

Wow, the comic updated just after I got back from a trip! Nice!:smallcool:

Acero

2010-02-21, 07:16 PM

now i know what the Dark one looks like. cool

Snake-Aes

2010-02-21, 07:22 PM

Don't screw this up.

drengnikrafe

2010-02-21, 07:33 PM

Absolutely amazing, as per usual. Good work, sir.

Nevitan

2010-02-21, 07:35 PM

No pressure though
XD

Hrairoo

2010-02-21, 07:35 PM

hmm, xykon being gone explains a lot about this situation. i too am eager to find how Gobbotopia will fare w/out redcloak's guidance...

Mastikator

2010-02-21, 07:37 PM

The Dark One has a BEARD? I always thought goblins couldn't grow facial hair.
Well, ok, he's a god, but still!

Awesome comic, as usual.

Blaznak

2010-02-21, 07:45 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 07:45 PM

The Dark One has a BEARD? I always thought goblins couldn't grow facial hair.
Well, ok, he's a god, but still!

Awesome comic, as usual.

What gave you this idea that Goblin's couldn't grow facial hair?

Blaznak

2010-02-21, 07:46 PM

Well, I thought this one had it all. Goblin Backstory, Crayons, Witty Punchline, Foreshadowing. Sheesh! Shoe horn it all in, why don't you! :)

SteveDJ

2010-02-21, 07:46 PM

So, is it usual for the blue boxes to be semi-transparent? I don't recall seeing that effect before, and it is kinda distracting when trying to read that text.

Kumo

2010-02-21, 07:49 PM

The comic's copyright is 2009.

Just sayin'. Ya know. In case somebody else didn't notice.

samwich 1

2010-02-21, 07:51 PM

So does the dark one have... horns?

Lamech

2010-02-21, 07:53 PM

Errr.... worst case prediction for what Xykon comes back with:
A demilich, a freaking demilich! How crappy would that be. If I was him I would animate my whole body anyway just so no one knows.

Blas_de_Lezo

2010-02-21, 07:54 PM

Thank you Giant. :smallsmile:

Drolyt

2010-02-21, 07:55 PM

Errr.... worst case prediction for what Xykon comes back with:
A demilich, a freaking demilich! How crappy would that be. If I was him I would animate my whole body anyway just so no one knows.

That's an interesting theory, however: (SoD)
Before meeting Redcloak Xykon didn't even know what a Lich was. He's really not all that smart, and I doubt he knows what a demilich is.

Shale

2010-02-21, 07:55 PM

The Goblin afterlife is to join an immense army of the dead and fight "otherworldly battles that mortals (can) scarcely comprehend?"

Huh, I didn't think I'd see the Blood War crop up here.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-02-21, 07:59 PM

Ubergeek

2010-02-21, 08:02 PM

Did anybody happen to save the original version of the comic?

*wants to see the speckles*

redcodekevin

2010-02-21, 08:02 PM

Blood war? What's a blood war?

Not "a" blood war. THE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_War) Blood War.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-02-21, 08:04 PM

Not "a" blood war. THE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_War) Blood War.

Huh. Okay.

I'm still a bit confused. :smalltongue:

redcodekevin

2010-02-21, 08:06 PM

Huh. Okay.

I'm still a bit confused. :smalltongue:

What Shale means (I think) is that suddenly, we have one massive, ever-growing army that looks ready to take on storm the planes in a uber-chaotic war.

Shale

2010-02-21, 08:08 PM

Short version: the denizens of the planes of lawful and chaotic evil are engaged in war without end, with the souls of the damned as their soldiers.

For more information, play Planescape: Torment.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-02-21, 08:09 PM

What Shale means (I think) is that suddenly, we have one massive, ever-growing army that looks ready to take on storm the planes in a uber-chaotic war.

And I think I just figured out what the final battle's going to be like.

ref

2010-02-21, 08:14 PM

Awesome. Lots of questions. Let's see what happens next.

herrhauptmann

2010-02-21, 08:19 PM

Hallelujah.
Probably about 10 minutes before the comic was released, I think I was checking the date on the last update. :D More use of foreshadowing. The Giant's storytelling ability continues to improve.

Dr.Epic

2010-02-21, 08:21 PM

"Don't screw this up."

"Screw you, suckers, it's OUR turn now!"

Those goblins have a way with words.

One Skunk Todd

2010-02-21, 08:21 PM

Turns out I can't use the gradient that appears when the MITD is not under his umbrella in the same comic as crayon drawings without major color screw-ups. Easily enough fixed, I just told the MITD to pick up his umbrella.

Bad Giant! :)

I wonder if the Dark One is directing the IFCC.

Gift Jeraff

2010-02-21, 08:27 PM

I wonder if the Dark One is directing the IFCC.
Cedrik's "Technically true, I suppose." in #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) makes me think that the IFCC plans to bring down all of the gods.

delguidance

2010-02-21, 08:28 PM

Arguably the existence of the Interfiend Cooperation Commission is a references to the blood war.

I think the lich is...making shady deals with the tree army.

jmucchiello

2010-02-21, 08:33 PM

Vreejack

2010-02-21, 08:35 PM

The dots are a side-effect of reducing the comic's colors to fit the GIF format.

You're using GIF!? I thought that was as dead as the old Amiga IFF, but looking around I see a few others here and there. I understand that browsers have to support it for legacy reasons but I did not know that new works used it. Seems painful.

Shale

2010-02-21, 08:40 PM

(Please, no new arguments about how I shouldn't be using GIFs anymore.)

Just throwing that out there.

Demented

2010-02-21, 08:45 PM

It's 2010. I'm pretty sure you could savely switch to PNG format which wouldn't have dithering and isn't lossy like JPEG.
Edit: Aw, I should take this to PMs, shouldn't I?

Tobimaro

2010-02-21, 08:48 PM

Glad to see that the Dark One is not one of those gods who use flowery and vague language as messages to his followers. That makes it easier to follow plans and keep his followers in line. :smallsmile:

Drakevarg

2010-02-21, 08:58 PM

It only took seven words to convince me the Dark One was awesome. :smalltongue:

Elfey

2010-02-21, 09:06 PM

Funny, I read it in the exact opposite way, since its obvious the "one true prophet" is Redcloak.

I took the Dark One's message to mean, "Yeah, it's great that you founded this cool goblin nation and all, but that doesn't mean you can quit The Plan. Better hop to it. Leave this stuff to the second-stringers like Jirix."

Yeah, I misread it the first time. Still, its nice the Dark One will at least let them try at diplomacy even though he thinks it will fail. And in retrospect, since Redcloak is doing everything because of The Red Cloak communing him directly with the Dark One, they have to be on the same page.

Knellroy

2010-02-21, 09:15 PM

Redcloak looking like a kid in a candy store;
or rather a Hobgobblin in a blood-bath..

Assume!

Drakevarg

2010-02-21, 09:43 PM

*ninja-leted*

*tilts head*

Um... I don't think this is the most appropriate place for an advertisement...

anonymouse

2010-02-21, 09:57 PM

Perhaps Xykon has gone to see the oracle (as some have suggested) to ask him about the whereabouts of the phylactery?

ClockShock

2010-02-21, 10:05 PM

Sounds familiar to me too, but the only similar quote google turns up is "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid", which is apparently some movie from the 1980s. Can someone else help us here?

I got ninja'd.

I just want to point out that "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" is an awesome movie. It has nazis and island eating cheese - i kid you not.

Anyway, is the hint at a(the?) blood war, or something more sinister. I mean, if goblinoids are kicking about in the afterlife preparing for war, whereas all the (lawful) good aligned folks are climbing some mountain, perhaps the Dark One has more than one means of persausion against the other gods.

ThePhantasm

2010-02-21, 10:24 PM

Good story comic, but as far as punchlines go, this one was kinda "meh."

Aerysil

2010-02-21, 10:50 PM

The comic leaves me wondering who the Dark One's true prophet is. Assuming it might not be Redcloak, that is.

Draconi Redfir

2010-02-21, 11:24 PM

maby the dark ones true prophet is right-eyes daughter?

or Tiassal, love child of V and Reddy :P

im wondering. did we see any bugbears in that crowd of goblins in the army? or just hobos/gobos?

2ndly. it could be just that goblinoids love battle so much they see it as entertainment, the orcs get an "eternal battle" to go to when they die dont they?

Pyron

2010-02-21, 11:31 PM

KeiranHalcyon

2010-02-21, 11:37 PM

Arguably the existence of the Interfiend Cooperation Commission is a references to the blood war.

The Blood War was explicitly referenced by the orange fiend (Nero?) in 632 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html), the same strip that the IFCC was introduced. So, yes.

NiteCyper

2010-02-21, 11:48 PM

Ze roaches, zey said nussing.

LostOne

2010-02-22, 12:11 AM

jamroar

2010-02-22, 12:12 AM

I just want to point out that "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" is an awesome movie. It has nazis and island eating cheese - i kid you not.

Anyway, is the hint at a(the?) blood war, or something more sinister. I mean, if goblinoids are kicking about in the afterlife preparing for war, whereas all the (lawful) good aligned folks are climbing some mountain, perhaps the Dark One has more than one means of persausion against the other gods.

The Dark One's home plane would appear to be on Acheron, judging from the "iron plateau battlefield" (iron cube) description.
ed: ninja'ed!

thepsyker

2010-02-22, 12:13 AM

The comic leaves me wondering who the Dark One's true prophet is. Assuming it might not be Redcloak, that is.Why would we assume that it is not Redcloak?

Conuly

2010-02-22, 12:16 AM

Because we're bored and it'd be fun to assume it's not the most obvious choice?

Shale

2010-02-22, 12:16 AM

Why would we assume that it is not Redcloak?

Because that would involve taking the script at face value, which is not especially popular 'round these parts.

Optimystik

2010-02-22, 12:18 AM

Because we're bored and it'd be fun to assume it's not the most obvious choice?

Well if ignoring evidence to plant fantastic epileptic trees is fun, count me in!

"Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!"

Zevox

2010-02-22, 12:31 AM

SoD Curiosity...

I have to wonder with this afterlife would Right Eye actually be part of this Eternal Reward or is he receiving some sort damnation for bad mouthing the Dark One and interfering with the 'Plan'?

Jirix says that the Goblinoids in that army "died in loyal service to our people" - presumably, this means that these are the Dark One's faithful, not just any old Goblinoids. Which probably precludes Right-Eye from being there.

Whether he's suffering "some sort of damnation" is debatable, though. Depends on what his alignment was. I personally suspect he was Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral by the end of his life, having left his evil ways behind when he abandoned Xykon and The Plan, which would mean no damnation. But again, that's open to debate.
Zevox

Optimystik

2010-02-22, 12:39 AM

Jirix says that the Goblinoids in that army "died in loyal service to our people" - presumably, this means that these are the Dark One's faithful, not just any old Goblinoids. Which probably precludes Right-Eye from being there.

Whether he's suffering "some sort of damnation" is debatable, though. Depends on what his alignment was. I personally suspect he was Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral by the end of his life, having left his evil ways behind when he abandoned Xykon and The Plan, which would mean no damnation. But again, that's open to debate.
Zevox

And that's even assuming he was Evil before leaving. Throughout SoD I only saw him kill enemies that were attacking him or Redcloak.

Kokopelli Jones

2010-02-22, 12:55 AM

Mastikator

2010-02-22, 01:36 AM

Perhaps Xykon has gone to see the oracle (as some have suggested) to ask him about the whereabouts of the phylactery?

That WOULD be a really smart idea. Ergo, Xykon wouldn't do it.
Redcloak might though.

Pyron

2010-02-22, 01:39 AM

And that's even assuming he was Evil before leaving. Throughout SoD I only saw him kill enemies that were attacking him or Redcloak.

Right Eye killed those enemies because they were trying to prevent the goblins from unraveling the world (at least that was case with Lirian's gate). The fact that he willingly took part in such a plot means it reasonable to assume he was evil.

Although, Zevox made a good point; he might be considered neutral after leaving Xykon. However, that could mean he's separated from his family - they arguable died in the loyal service of the Dark One. Just the thought of being separated and knowing they continue to fight for their 'petty god' eternally might be torment no matter what afterlife he's in.

Then again... Right Eye could be in that army, now that I think about. While he opposed and interfered with the plan, he did die in loyal service to the goblin people depending on how you look at his actions. I wonder how he would be judged.

DrakebloodIV

2010-02-22, 01:50 AM

And that's even assuming he was Evil before leaving. Throughout SoD I only saw him kill enemies that were attacking him or Redcloak.

And we're all assuming that the Dark Ones worshippers even use alignment as a system of dictation for the afterlife. We've only seen Roy's afterlife, which apparently was specific to the Western Gods, and probably to LG worshippers of no specific deity. Meanwhile a certain goblinoid from a certain prequel book worships (and was usually on good standing with the chief priest of) a deity in his own pantheon. A deity who, I remind you, was essentially the patron saint of not-being-shoehorned-into-unfair-clichés in his mortal life. I really don't see the Dark One as setting up nine little cliques of goblins in his divine reward for their service. As for proof of this being possible, we already have proof that the Dark Ones afterlife lacked the memory blocking effect that the Western Gods' (not sure on that apostrophe, sorry grammar nazi's) afterlife.

Given all that, and the fact that there is no reference to being judged a 'good goblin' or a 'naughty goblin' I think that the Dark One gives all his people the same afterlife, with the possible exception of groups of different alignment being given different field positions in the army (CE as front lines soldiers, NG as healers, something like that).

Conuly

2010-02-22, 01:53 AM

Well if ignoring evidence to plant fantastic epileptic trees is fun, count me in!

Look, it's not *my* fault the people on this forum are all crazy, but on the scale of crazies I'll take "insane leaps of logic" over "let's prove V is a camel" and "I bet Belkar isn't really evil" any day. And since they're gonna have their fun regardless of what you say, you might as well join in and laugh a little.

Besides, arguing absurd ideas is good exercise for the brain.

Shatteredtower

2010-02-22, 01:56 AM

I'd been privately wondering about the delay. Now I see the reason for it. Well done.

Teleporker

2010-02-22, 02:05 AM

This is it. Jirix is officially a major player in the story.

I am not too hopeful for the "gobbos gone good" scenario, and yet Jirix seems to want a legitimate diplomatic approach (then again, I hope he does not change my opinion by applying the "we have a bigger stick" diplomacy any time soon).

As much as I'd like to believe there are gobbos who may have a legitimate desire to make things work, Gobbotopia has been founded with pretty much an anti-human base in its principles, so I have to doubt that for the time being.

If Jirix ends up having any success in the diplomatic front though, I expect him and Hinjo to spend a few strips having a heated discussion of who's-got-a-right-to-what nature before they inevitably go to battle (or will they? What if both Jirix and Hinjo decide they don't want further bloodshed?)

Deliverance

2010-02-22, 02:18 AM

"They will be battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue, but they will be battles nonetheless." Nice comment from the Dark One, who appears to be behind the idea of the Goblins existing as a nation, not just in perpetual battle.
Errr, that would be assuming that Jirix was actually telling the truth.

Considering how much fun we had with the "is Girard lying? What made him say those things" sequence, it is amazing to me that everybody in this thread until now (unless I have missed somebody) seems to be assuming that Jirix is telling the truth about what he learned though his death, up to and including delivering convenient political messages to the people he has been appointed to lead cementing his position as leader and supporting his policies while giving a friendly nod and a firm handshake to the departing leader while, at the same time, subtly undermining the awe for the immense power of the departing leader - not by claiming that it is less than it is, but by reducing the mystique and making it a matter about which it is permissable to joke.

Now Jirix isn't just leader because the supreme leader (who is going away and won't be able to support him in any upcoming unpopular decisions) said so - now he's appointed by God and nobody better doubt it.

Seen from this point of view, Jirix' message for Redcloak (who has not been receiving instructions from his God after the original imperative upon assuming the crimson mantle as far as we know) from the Dark One is also useful for adjusting ever so slightly the relationship between the two in Jirix' favour - a delicate task given the respective power levels of the two.

Now, that's all conjecture and it is certainly possible that the Giant will play this straight, but Jirix' story is so politically convenient on several different points that I'll hold out for the more interesting option: Jirix has carefully concealed his ambitions while sucking up to Redcloak as Redcloak's number one hobgoblin but he is a at heart a charismatic manipulator who is perfectly willing to lie in a good cause - his own. It is entirely possible that his goals will remain aligned with those of Redcloak for some time while he consolidates his own position but the longer time Redcloak is gone, the longer time to subtly undermine the Supreme Leader - possibly even by doing things in his name. :)

Raunie

2010-02-22, 02:26 AM

Absolutely hilarious! Made me laugh so hard .. best one in long time!! "No pressure, though" :smallwink:

factotum

2010-02-22, 02:35 AM

up to and including delivering convenient political messages to the people he has been appointed to lead cementing his position as leader and supporting his policies while giving a friendly nod and a firm handshake to the departing leader while, at the same time, subtly undermining the awe for the immense power of the departing leader

And him confirming that the departing leader is "the True Prophet of the Dark One" is helping that how, exactly?

Moran

2010-02-22, 02:48 AM

Crayons! :smallsmile:

Zevox

2010-02-22, 02:49 AM

Right Eye killed those enemies because they were trying to prevent the goblins from unraveling the world (at least that was case with Lirian's gate). The fact that he willingly took part in such a plot means it reasonable to assume he was evil.

Although, Zevox made a good point; he might be considered neutral after leaving Xykon. However, that could mean he's separated from his family - they arguable died in the loyal service of the Dark One. Just the thought of being separated and knowing they continue to fight for their 'petty god' eternally might be torment no matter what afterlife he's in.

Then again... Right Eye could be in that army, now that I think about. While he opposed and interfered with the plan, he did die in loyal service to the goblin people depending on how you look at his actions. I wonder how he would be judged.
The Goblins weren't trying to unravel the world. The Plan is to take control of a gate so it can be used to threaten the gods into giving Goblins equal treatment. Not to destroy the world. Even if the gods refuse, they would be the only ones destroyed by the Snarl, not the world.

I don't think you can really argue that Right-Eye's family qualify as the Dark One's faithful, incidentally. They were forced to work for Xykon, but we're given no indication whatsoever that such is what they wanted. It was simply either that or face the consequences of displeasing the epic Lich Sorcerer whose sole pleasure in existence is causing pain, suffering, and death.

And I also wouldn't take Jirix's "Goblin people" thing too literally. I sincerely doubt he means that anyone who acts to help Goblins automatically goes there, even if they hate the Dark One. That would make no sense whatsoever, and fly in the face of all D&D cosmology. It's much more sensible to guess that those who faithfully serve the Dark One himself are those end up there, and Jirix simply sees this as service to the Goblin people, being as he is himself a Cleric of the Dark One.
Zevox

Deliverance

2010-02-22, 02:55 AM

And him confirming that the departing leader is "the True Prophet of the Dark One" is helping that how, exactly?
It'll certainly help Redcloak believing what Jirix said by playing to his sense of importance - as well as establishing Jirix, the humble lesser being who has assumed temporal power to fulfill the wishes of the prophet, as the practical conduit for divine revelations in the here and now.

I just cannot help thinking of some of the human political constructions from our history where the holder of the grand title and receiver of widespread devotion from the populace at large was clearly distinct from the man who held actual political power.

Drakevarg

2010-02-22, 02:59 AM

I just cannot help thinking of some of the human political constructions from our history where the holder of the grand title and receiver of widespread devotion from the populace at large was clearly distinct from the man who held actual political power.

I don't think it'd work in real life nearly as well if the guy who held widespread devotion could kill the guy with actual polical power (and any bodyguards) with his brain.

Deliverance

2010-02-22, 03:09 AM

I don't think it'd work in real life nearly as well if the guy who held widespread devotion could kill the guy with actual polical power (and any bodyguards) with his brain.
Perhaps not at close range. :D

But if the person with the widespread devotion was going on a long trip, anticipating never returning, only received information from home censored by the the person with the actual political power, and was unable to communicate with other people at home save through the agency of the one with the political power, a person with (in the brain-frying case) every reason to maintain tranquil communications - then the degree of separation in distance might rival the degree of separation of societies in the Japanese Shogunate in the 17th century.

EDIT: Redcloak, at least, has the sense to question whether Jirix is telling the truth or performing politics - until he is diverted by the direct message from the Dark One that Jirix says he was saving for an opportune time and which contents are guaranteed to derail Redcloak's thought process. Perhaps the opportune time was... when he was being questioned about the truth of his story, and Redcloak swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. :)

Laurellien

2010-02-22, 03:35 AM

Yay, a new comic, I'd almost given up... Good to see that the gods can speak on the same level as mortals.

Ancalagon

2010-02-22, 04:24 AM

Nice comic. This one is a pretty good one. :)

I like how Jirix adds a new tone.

RMS Oceanic

2010-02-22, 04:32 AM

I'm interested at how some people suspect Jirix to have political aspirations which don't include Redcloak. To me, it feels like the people who believed the IFCC would at some point fall to internal bickering, and I'm just not seeing it. I still believe Redcloak and Jirix have the same goal of a better deal for Goblinoids. Jirix has spoken to the Dark One, and Redcloak has been imbued with his wishes directly as well, so I don't think backstabbing is in order. If internal strife brings down Team Evil, it will more likely be Redcloak/Xykon strife than Jirix/Redcloak strife.

LuisDantas

2010-02-22, 04:41 AM

Redcloak must be feeling fairly miserable with all this sudden Jirix popularity while he is scolded in short order by both Xykon AND the Dark One (by means of Jirix, no less).

Xykon feels both (relatively) vulnerable and hurried, so whatever he is doing now must be something he can't avoid and that he can't or won't bring help along. Maybe he is trading notes with some sort of allies, or checking with the Oracle.

Jirix seems a bit TOO nice all around. I can't help but wonder if he won't plot to take over from Redcloak, or at least feel tempted to.

Turkish Delight

2010-02-22, 04:51 AM

Jirix seems a bit TOO nice all around. I can't help but wonder if he won't plot to take over from Redcloak, or at least feel tempted to.

I doubt he will. Even if he had aspirations for such, he's been told directly by his God that Redcloak is his 'true prophet.' Redcloak has connections, and now Jirix knows it right from the source. He won't make a move unless Redcloak seriously screws up and loses the Dark One's favor, if even then.

Ancalagon

2010-02-22, 05:06 AM

Jirix seems a bit TOO nice all around. I can't help but wonder if he won't plot to take over from Redcloak, or at least feel tempted to.

Why should he? He's the guy who's completely in charge now. What more could he gain?

Turkish Delight

2010-02-22, 05:10 AM

Why should he? He's the guy who's completely in charge now. What more could he gain?

You're not completely in charge if another guy can at any time make you not in charge. Redcloak is still the Big Boss in Gobbotopia.

Paŭlo

2010-02-22, 05:22 AM

The Dark One has a BEARD? I always thought goblins couldn't grow facial hair.
Well, ok, he's a god, but still!
Beards for goblinoids are not often, but we have seen before. The Hobgoblin general in the attack on the city hat one. (For example #451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).)

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 05:25 AM

I highly doubt Jirix has any other intentions than to faithfully serve Redcloak and The Dark One. I'm not sure how you guys are reading into it like that.
On Right Eye, SoD:
I highly doubt he would be let into Goblin Heaven as one of the Dark One's supporters. He actively fought against the plan when he tried to assassinate Xykon. Also this last chapter seems to support that The Dark One is on Redcloaks side. However, I think we are discounting another possibility. There is some talk about how Right Eye could be considered neutral at the end of SoD, but I'd go so far as to say he could be considered good. Why? Well for most of he was flat out Neutral. He never really did anything wrong, it was the Sapphire Guard that tried to kill him when he was just a little kid. When Right Eye saw that what Xykon and Redcloak were doing wasn't in the Goblin's best interest he quit and started up a completely peaceful Goblin settlement which didn't attempt to fight the other races at all. That's arguably leaning on Good right there, but what really makes me think Right Eye deserved a Good Aligned afterlife is that he fought Xykon to his death. He submitted to Xykon at first to protect his family, but he risked his life to put an end to Xykon and Redcloak's mad plan. Sure he wasn't as outright good as, say, Roy, but he was as good as anyone could expect of him given the circumstances. Also, before O-Chul Right Eye's family were the only ones to be nice to the MitD.

warmachine

2010-02-22, 05:52 AM

Redcloak is taking a major risk. He doesn't know where Xykon is or, more importantly, what he's doing. He just assumes he's resource or weapon gathering. Xykon could be just sightseeing and intends to return very soon. If he comes back and finds the minions not finding his phylactory, he could get angry and that's generally painful for everyone else.

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 05:58 AM

It is a bit of a risk.

As to the general goals of Gobbotopia, going by Jirix's narration, the goals will be "win battles of trade, diplomacy, and intrigue" rather than: "make war of the neighbours for territory"

So it looks like there definitely will be diplomacy, and trade, with the neighbours.

Given that Cliffport wants to "influence their position on human slavery via economic engagement"- I suspect that the position of the enslaved Azurites is likely to improve- they are Gobbotopia's bargaining chip.

Question is- will the "coordinated insertions" of the elven nations, to supplement Team Peregrine, threaten Gobbotopia? How about Thanh's Resistance? And will the slaves inspired by O-chul's resistance to interrogation, play a part?

Turkish Delight

2010-02-22, 06:09 AM

Given that Cliffport wants to "influence their position on human slavery via economic engagement"- I suspect that the position of the enslaved Azurites is likely to improve- they are Gobbotopia's bargaining chip.

I wouldn't bet on it, if that line is as much of a snarky take on Real World politics as it seems. That line of thinking is usually used as a benevolent cover for, "We want to do business with evil, nasty people without looking bad, so let's put some mild public pressure on them to do something about the slavery thing while in practice completely ignoring it."

iTookUrNick

2010-02-22, 06:15 AM

, that would be assuming that Jirix was actually telling the truth.

Considering how much fun we had with the "is Girard lying? What made him say those things" sequence, it is amazing to me that everybody in this thread until now (unless I have missed somebody) seems to be assuming that Jirix is telling the truth about what he learned though his death, up to and including delivering convenient political messages to the people he has been appointed to lead cementing his position as leader and supporting his policies while giving a friendly nod and a firm handshake to the departing leader while, at the same time, subtly undermining the awe for the immense power of the departing leader - not by claiming that it is less than it is, by reducing the mystique and making it a matter about which it is permissable to joke.

Now Jirix isn't just leader because the supreme leader (who is going away and won't be able to support him in any upcoming unpopular decisions) said so - now he's appointed by God and nobody better doubt it.

Seen from this point of view, Jirix' message for Redcloak (who has not been receiving instructions from his God after the original imperative upon assuming the crimson mantle as far as we know) from the Dark One is also useful for adjusting ever so slightly the relationship between the two in Jirix' favour - a delicate task given the respective power levels of the two.

Now, that's all conjecture and it is certainly possible that the Giant will play this straight, but Jirix' story is so politically convenient on several different points that I'll hold out for the more interesting option: Jirix has carefully concealed his ambitions while sucking up to Redcloak as Redcloak's number one hobgoblin but he is a at heart a charismatic manipulator who is perfectly willing to lie in a good cause - his own. It is entirely possible that his goals will remain aligned with those of Redcloak for some time while he consolidates his own position but the longer time Redcloak is gone, the longer time to subtly undermine the Supreme Leader - possibly even by doing things in his name. :)

That's great thinking. Unlikely, as you said, but great thinking nevertheless. Congrats.

Also, great to see we are done with the goblins' sequence (unless we are to witness some Peregrine action, which is less than likely). I enjoyed it, but (due to a subdued update pace?) I think it's time to know what happened to the OotS search. (Or the linear guild!)

Agi Hammerthief

2010-02-22, 06:20 AM

they are Gobbotopia's bargaining chip.
yeah, they can threaten to give them a free boat ride to Cliffport (as a means of ending their slavery)

just which nation wants a shipload of refugees on their shores?

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 06:21 AM

yeah, they can threaten to give them a free boat ride to Cliffport (as a means of ending their slavery)

just which nation wants a shipload of refugees on their shores?

None in OotS. Sadly none of Azure City's supposed "allies" wanted to help them, so I really doubt any would take a bunch of refugees for no pay.

Agi Hammerthief

2010-02-22, 06:25 AM

None in OotS. Sadly none of Azure City's supposed "allies" wanted to help them, so I really doubt any would take a bunch of refugees for no pay.
and you are not talking about Cliffport (or others) buying them free I guess

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 07:09 AM

and you are not talking about Cliffport (or others) buying them free I guess

I wasn't thinking of it like that... possible, I suppose.

Wolf_Plague

2010-02-22, 07:11 AM

I.. I had a really bad luck of listening to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" while reading Jirix's speech...

Oh, gods.

and you are not talking about Cliffport (or others) buying them free I guess
Buying slaves? But that won't give them any XP!:smallmad:

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 07:42 AM

None in OotS. Sadly none of Azure City's supposed "allies" wanted to help them, so I really doubt any would take a bunch of refugees for no pay.

Actually- they were happy to help, just not militarily.

Help they were willing to provide, included taking in refugees:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 07:51 AM

Actually- they were happy to help, just not militarily.

Help they were willing to provide, included taking in refugees:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html

Fair enough, but it seems to me they only offered their assistance because the Azurites showed up on their doorsteps. If they were any friends at all they would have done far more.

Thrax

2010-02-22, 07:53 AM

Wait, dead men give no speeches. And this one does. Does this mean the one who gives a speech isn't dead? He also doesn't seem to behave much like Jirix did before. Have the Dark One possessed Jirix's body?

silversaraph

2010-02-22, 08:31 AM

A punchline! amazing!

red wombat

2010-02-22, 08:41 AM

"No pressure, though." Strange sentiment from an evil goblin deity. Nice to see the crayons back, though.

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 08:57 AM

Shale

2010-02-22, 09:06 AM

The_Ferg

2010-02-22, 09:17 AM

Shouldn't it be "the likes of which" instead of "the like of which" in panel 4, section 1?

SaintRidley

2010-02-22, 09:22 AM

Generally being brought back from the dead means you aren't dead anymore.

But... But... People die when they are killed!

HandofShadows

2010-02-22, 09:32 AM

Dead men.. er Goblins do tell tales. But only after a Resurection spell. :smallbiggrin:

Shale

2010-02-22, 09:49 AM

Shouldn't it be "the likes of which" instead of "the like of which" in panel 4, section 1?

"The like of which" is more archaic, but acceptable.

ThePhantasm

2010-02-22, 09:51 AM

Because that would involve taking the script at face value, which is not especially popular 'round these parts.

I blame LOST. Everyone is looking for twists these days, even in the most unlikely places.

Thrax

2010-02-22, 10:02 AM

Generally being brought back from the dead means you aren't dead anymore.

So why is it pointed out in the strip name? There must be some reason for it, even if it's not what I deduced. And that's the first thing that comes to my mind, that this is not the same person who died there.

Drakevarg

2010-02-22, 10:04 AM

But... But... People die when they are killed!

Well of course they do. Just not all of them stay that way. See also, the zombie horde scratching at your front door.

Dead men.. er Goblins do tell tales. But only after a Resurection spell. :smallbiggrin:

Or Speak With Dead. Or Plane Shift to their afterlife. There's probably more ways than that to get a corpse to spill the beans.

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 10:19 AM

In SoD, when speaking of The Dark One, Redcloak says "Well, he's technically an evil god"

And when speaking of himself as evil in the main strip, to Jirix, he clarifies it with "as defined by our opposition to those that call themselves good":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html

This tack isn't taken all the time, but it does seem that there is more to The Dark One, and Redcloak, than simply "being evil"

Alignment in OotS works like the theme park version of standard D&D alignment. Paladins, for example, can kill goblin children and still be lawful good. Not to spoil to much from SoD, but from my point of view (not sure if it's what the Giant intended, but whatever), The Dark One isn't really evil at all. He wanted peace and good will between goblins and non-goblins. So he's technically evil only insofar as he opposes the "good guys". He is treading the line however with this whole plan, which endangers all of creation. Redcloak thinks he's the real good guy, and that the people with good alignments are simply pulling the proverbial wool over everyone's eyes, and that might have been true before he crossed the moral event horizon in SoD. As a side note, if you want an example of what The Giant seems to think a good character should be (and I agree wholeheartedly), look no further than O-Chul. He is a true paragon of what the Lawful Good alignments was supposed to be.

Shale

2010-02-22, 10:39 AM

So why is it pointed out in the strip name? There must be some reason for it, even if it's not what I deduced. And that's the first thing that comes to my mind, that this is not the same person who died there.

I just figured that it was an excuse for a pun made with harmful intent and malice aforethought, as so many OotS strip titles are. Plus if he'd been left dead, he wouldn't have been able to give the speech.

Sijo

2010-02-22, 10:48 AM

My first reaction to this strip was to (almost) facepalm: "Not MORE goblin politics!!" :smallsigh:

Fortunately, it was better than I expected, if only because it established a few important facts:

-It confirms that Xykon is NOT currently around. I was wondering why his Evilness had not been shown pompously chewing the scenery like he usually does. And no one knows what he's doing. You'd think he would stick around until his phylactery was found, what with his very existence depending on it. Which means whatever he's doing must be even MORE important.

-Related to the above, Xykon only let the Gobs make their own nation because he doesn't care about it, not because it's a part of his plan. (Considering his greater goals, it would be insignificant to him.)

-But more importantly -and it strikes me as odd that no one has pointed this out yet- Redcloak is doomed. How so? Because Jirix has become his replacement as leader of the Goblin nation. It sounds to me like The Giant wants Gobbotopia to endure, in some form, after the series ends, since the whole "equal humanoid rights" things is such a big issue here. And I expected RC to survive in order to lead it. But now, he's no longer needed for this function, which probably means he'll fall along his boss when the Order inevitably takes him down. The fact even The Dark One is having doubts about him doesn't help. Let's hope he at least gets a cool dying speech.

And I hope that's the LAST we see of the gobs for a while. Because just like last time, I didn't even giggle. At least it was informative...

ThePhantasm

2010-02-22, 11:12 AM

Yes, I think Redcloaks unending lust for revenge will be his eventual downfall. He's a baddie, and he'll get his "just desserts" so to speak, per storytelling convention.

Drakevarg

2010-02-22, 11:16 AM

Yes, I think Redcloaks unending lust for revenge will be his eventual downfall. He's a baddie, and he'll get his "just desserts" so to speak, per storytelling convention.

'cept, y'know... half of the point of OotS's story is that the alignment system is not a straightjacket. If Redcloak got his "just desserts" it'd make the story seem too black and white. Black-and-whiteness being almost exactly NOT the point trying to be made.

I'm reasonably sure that Redcloak is doomed to Phyrric Victory, not death.

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 11:21 AM

Since reading SoD I've assumed that Redcloak will eventually realize the error of his ways and die in a Heroic Sacrifice (cause Redemption Equals Death) in order to bring about peace and equality between the humanoids.

Big Hungry Joe

2010-02-22, 11:26 AM

Jirix is growing on me. He obviously knows how to play a crowd, and is a good populist offset to Redcloak's pointy-headed aloofness.

And I think Team Peregrine is still kicking around somewhere. The references to elves attacking the tower pretty clearly refer only to V, so my guess is Team Peregrine synced up with the Resistance somehow and is causing mischief out of sight. That phylactery search could be interesting indeed.

SoC175

2010-02-22, 11:50 AM

The Goblin afterlife is to join an immense army of the dead and fight "otherworldly battles that mortals (can) scarcely comprehend?"

Huh, I didn't think I'd see the Blood War crop up here. Unlikely, as deities don't participate that much in the blood war. They send armies of their own from time to time (especially deities of war), but have better things to do than to focus the majority of their petitioners on the blood war.

Deities that let their petitioners endlessly fight are not uncommon. Several human deities of war do that as well. Wouldn't surprise me if Thor's afterlife would look similar (IIRC that's actually indeed the case for Thor in D&D)

Whether he's suffering "some sort of damnation" is debatable, though. Depends on what his alignment was. I personally suspect he was Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral by the end of his life, having left his evil ways behind when he abandoned Xykon and The Plan, which would mean no damnation. But again, that's open to debate.
Zevox Unless the Dark One still had a claim to his soul and snatched it away before it could get to a CN/TN plane.

Now Jirix isn't just leader because the supreme leader (who is going away and won't be able to support him in any upcoming unpopular decisions) said so - now he's appointed by God and nobody better doubt it. In a world where the actual deities have to approve of your class features each morning it's unwise to lie about something they're supposed to have told you

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 12:02 PM

Unlikely, as deities don't participate that much in the blood war. They send armies of their own from time to time (especially deities of war), but have better things to do than to focus the majority of their petitioners on the blood war.

Deities that let their petitioners endlessly fight are not uncommon. Several human deities of war do that as well. Wouldn't surprise me if Thor's afterlife would look similar (IIRC that's actually indeed the case for Thor in D&D)
Unless the Dark One still had a claim to his soul and snatched it away before it could get to a CN/TN plane.
In a world where the actual deities have to approve of your class features each morning it's unwise to lie about something they're supposed to have told you

I don't think the Dark One could lay a claim to Right Eye's soul if Right Eye repented of the Dark One's teachings. At least, most setting don't work that way. Also I believe you are correct, Jirix is a Cleric so the only way he could be lying is if the Dark One told him to.

Conuly

2010-02-22, 12:03 PM

In a world where the actual deities have to approve of your class features each morning it's unwise to lie about something they're supposed to have told you

Unless they said something like "If your city goes well, stab him in the back so he doesn't mess things up, but don't tell him that's my plan, just tell him not to mess up."

Then they're TELLING you to lie, so it's different.

Fitzclowningham

2010-02-22, 12:06 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 12:20 PM

There is something about Jirix' attitude and Redcloak's reaction to it that suggests The Giant is prepping us for some conflict between them. The idea that Jirix lied to him about what The Dark One said, or that Jirix is planning to betray him, isn't really plausible.

Redcloak is the High Priest of The Dark One, his representative in the mortal world. Any time he wants to, RC could commune with him and learn the truth. Not a chance any sane underling would take, imho.

Besides that, Jirix is a Cleric of the Dark One. He can't lie about the Dark One's plans unless the Dark One told him to for some reason or he would lose his spells. There might be some conflict, Jirix might be a replacement for Right Eye if he learns the truth about the plan, but other than that I think Jirix is loyal to Redcloak. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the Hobgoblins are at the moment more loyal to Redcloak than the Dark One. He essentially built them a civilization after all, even if it was more or less an accident.

Snowyowl

2010-02-22, 12:30 PM

First: The world that this series is set in just keeps getting deeper. Compare and contrast this strip to, say, strip 1. Politics and strategy, not to mention the occasional epic battle, are all over the place.

Second: On a vaguely related note, this is the best punchline in a while.

silvadel

2010-02-22, 12:44 PM

My theory on this: (speculation spoiler alert -- you should read it tho if you arent the giant)

Jirix didnt go to see the dark one, but was intercepted by the IFCC. The IFCC showed Jirix what they wanted to show Jirix and gave that message to Redcloak.

Exit68

2010-02-22, 12:54 PM

:smalleek: While the Blood War would be neat... it would derail the the story some.

Besides Rich seems more interested in telling his own story, not rehashing someone else's ...

Strawberries

2010-02-22, 01:14 PM

Yay! I finally got to see the Dark One! And he is awesome :smallbiggrin:.

Funny, I read it in the exact opposite way, since its obvious the "one true prophet" is Redcloak.

I took the Dark One's message to mean, "Yeah, it's great that you founded this cool goblin nation and all, but that doesn't mean you can quit The Plan. Better hop to it. Leave this stuff to the second-stringers like Jirix."

I agree with SPoD on this. Sort of a "keep your eyes on the prize".

The Dark One has a BEARD? I always thought goblins couldn't grow facial hair.
Well, ok, he's a god, but still!

We have seen facial hair on goblins. For instance the general here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

Zanaril

2010-02-22, 01:14 PM

There's probably more ways than that to get a corpse to spill the beans.
Like a Piñata?

SimonN

2010-02-22, 02:06 PM

Deities that let their petitioners endlessly fight are not uncommon. Several human deities of war do that as well. Wouldn't surprise me if Thor's afterlife would look similar (IIRC that's actually indeed the case for Thor in D&D)
Real life norse mythology:
If you die in a fight (or eg. of old age, but with your sword in your bed), the the valkyries will come and take you to Valhalla (Odin's hall).
There, every morning the warriors march outside and have a huge battle. After the battle is over, the valkyries patch everybody together, and they all march inside the hall again and have a great big party.

This was the Viking heaven: A never ending cycle of get up, fight, eat and drink your brains out, sleep, repeat. :smallsmile:
Well that is, until ragnarok when all the warriors have to fight as the gods army...

On the other hand: If you did not die in honorable combat you went to Hel (one l, and btw also the name of the ruler) - which was not a nice place. For example, (translating from danish, so may be slightly off) the plate you eat from is called Hunger, the knife is called Famine, the bed is called Sickbed, and the curtain around the bed is Nightmare.

You know, just so nobody would get the silly idea that being locked in eternal battle wasn't a nice idea. :smalltongue:

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 02:19 PM

Ysgard in 3.0-3.5 is like this.

:smalleek: While the Blood War would be neat... it would derail the the story some.

Besides Rich seems more interested in telling his own story, not rehashing someone else's ...

While it may not appear in the spotlight, the Blood War is mentioned here;

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 02:44 PM

Ysgard in 3.0-3.5 is like this.

While it may not appear in the spotlight, the Blood War is mentioned here;

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html

I doubt there will be much connection to the blood war other than the fact that the IFCC is vaguely connected to it. Although there are supposed to be 9 total factions in this conflict, what have we seen, 1. The Order of the Stick 2. Team Evil 3. The Linear Guild 4. The IFCC... anyone else we could really number among the nine? You could split team evil between Xykon and Redcloak/The Dark One, count Azure City or Girard as separate factions, or maybe count the guild that sealed the gates as a faction. No matter how you look at it we are missing at least 3-4 factions from our count, who says that demons/devils can't be among their number? Well, I don't think they are, and I doubt we will see more of the blood war, but I can neither see the future nor read The Giant's mind (he would have to be present for that) so obviously I might be wrong.

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 02:53 PM

DabblerWizard

2010-02-22, 03:05 PM

Awesome comic. I wonder when / if we'll find out what Xykon is up to.

Drolyt

2010-02-22, 03:14 PM

Maybe the Blood War will only make its appearance when the IFCC spring their Cunning Plan, whatever it is.

I suspect it will involve controlling V for a limited time- since it was never specified that they'd get V's soul after death.

Hmm- if the IFCC succeed, uniting the fiends, maybe The Snarl will end up fighting on the side of the heroes, against the united Fiendish Hordes?

I assumed the time they got to control V was to be used while V was still alive. Given the way the deal was concocted I'm not sure they would be able to remove him from his final (presumably) reward.

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 03:17 PM

While V was asking if it would be after death:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

it's possible that it would be before.

In theory, it could be after- pacts may override normal afterlife destinations.

The main reason to believe it will be before death, is the importance they seem to place on the gates- and the fact that they gave such good terms.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

calar

2010-02-22, 03:35 PM

"Don't screw this up." Lol :smallbiggrin:

Aaron

2010-02-22, 03:38 PM

And I think I just figured out what the final battle's going to be like.

I'm not the only on? That's a relief. :smallsmile:

It's funny. Dying and reviving, the best way to communicate with the gods. :smallbiggrin:

Deliverance

2010-02-22, 03:52 PM

In a world where the actual deities have to approve of your class features each morning it's unwise to lie about something they're supposed to have told you
Well, Redcloak, priest of the Dark One and bearer of the crimson mantle, isn't as sure of that and that priests of his diety won't lie about what his diety has said and done as you are; See panel #13-15 of strip 704: He explicitly asks whether what Jirix described to the others really happened.

For him to ask in the first place, he cannot consider it to be outside the realm of the possible that Jirix was lying and it isn't even certain that he considers it to be unlikely.

In general, the rigid adherance to D&D's atrocious rules where gods and their clerics are concerned is not featured prominently in the OOTS. (Durkon and Thor being the prime example and often played for laughs, but there are others).

Even if you do go by D&D's strict rules, the Dark One is an evil god. He might not mind his clerics lying or scheming against both enemies and allies to strengthen their own position so long as it didn't jeopardize his own divine plans. :D After all, they are merely mortal and concerned with plans their limited minds can comprehend, and he is ever so much more. :)

SoC175

2010-02-22, 04:20 PM

It's funny. Dying and reviving, the best way to communicate with the gods. :smallbiggrin:
Actually it's one of the worst ways. Commune is of the same level and much cheaper. I really wonder why Redcloak doesn't talk to the Dark One more often, we even know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) that he would be able to physically visit the DO's divine realm if he wanted to.

Akabana_Shin

2010-02-22, 04:58 PM

Urg. Nice comic and all, but this is moving so painfully slowly it's not even funny anymore.

There's no better way to screw up a great story than by delaying it.

Really, even slow moving things like Naruto and Bleach manga seem to go at great speed compared to OotS.

:smallfrown:

Snake-Aes

2010-02-22, 04:58 PM

Actually it's one of the worst ways. Commune is of the same level and much cheaper. I really wonder why Redcloak doesn't talk to the Dark One more often, we even know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) that he would be able to physically visit the DO's divine realm if he wanted to.

How so? He doesn't specifically mention anything on those lines, unless you are talking about planeshift.

Gift Jeraff

2010-02-22, 05:20 PM

Hmmm, I can't believe I just now thought that we may be able to further split Redcloak & the Dark One into two separate "sides". Maybe not yet, but it's certainly possible that further down the line, Redcloak will go against his deity.

My guess is that he will temporarily abandon the Plan to save Gobbotopia from the inevitable Elven/Azurite attack. He won't necessarily lose his clerical powers, but it would probably become clear at that point that the two aren't out to get the gates for the same reason.
Also, this strip confirms that Redcloak is not being hypnotized/controlled by the Dark One, like some have conjectured.

hamishspence

2010-02-22, 05:34 PM

I don't know what form it will take, but I suspect that Gobbotopia might be a breaking point for Redcloak.

If The Dark One demands he sacrifice Gobbotopia for The Plan, he might reject The Dark One entirely.

Conversely, if he receives a Sending telling him Gobbotopia has fallen, he might lose any reason to worry about The Snarl being let loose- because without Gobbotopia, he has less to be emotionally invested in.

LuisDantas

2010-02-22, 05:59 PM

One question keeps bugging me. Why was Jirix ressurrected? Wouldn't Raise Dead be more practical than Ressurrection?

t3h l3g1t m4g3

2010-02-22, 06:41 PM

Yay! A new comic! Thanks!

Gift Jeraff

2010-02-22, 06:59 PM

One question keeps bugging me. Why was Jirix ressurrected? Wouldn't Raise Dead be more practical than Ressurrection?
My personal guess is that "Resurrection spell" is just a colloquial term for Raise Dead/Resurrection/Reincarnate/True Resurrection.

ThePhantasm

2010-02-22, 07:00 PM

My personal guess is that "Resurrection spell" is just a colloquial term for Raise Dead/Resurrection/Reincarnate/True Resurrection.

I think this is the case. How would it even work grammatically for Jirix to say "he raise dead'd me?"

Kish

2010-02-22, 07:05 PM

Considering that wasn't the format Jirix used anyway...
"I didn't mind the Raise, either." Or "...the Raise Dead, either," if Jirix, uncharacteristically so far as we've just seen, decided he didn't want the terminology to be humorously ambiguous.

Nilan8888

2010-02-22, 07:14 PM

If that one true prophet stuff is correct....

The Dark One may be playing Redcloak in a sense. Redcloak is intended to do the plan, but only to either give a distraction from Jirix or to act as ultimately back up to Jirix's actions in establishing a Goblin Nation.

That is actually a pretty cool supposition that could play out instead of the Goblin Nation falling at all. Or perhaps a twist in addition to it falling.

What if this "one true prophet" status of RedCloak is really not what RedCloak thinks it is? What if he IS being played by his own God. MAybe not in precisely this way, but there's tons of room to play those notes, I'd figure.

silvadel

2010-02-22, 07:16 PM

What acheron reminds me of actually is everquest played for real for eternity.

red wombat

2010-02-22, 08:09 PM

Here's how Belkar dies: Xykon is visiting the Oracle to find out where his phylactery is. The Oracle demands as payment that Xykon kill Belkar as revenge for Belkar's murder of the Oracle. He even tells Xykon where to find the little sociopath. Xykon teleports to the Order's location and hilarity ensues.

No, it's not likely, but it's a thought.

The icon is in deference to my daughter.

DaveMcW

2010-02-22, 11:00 PM

Actually it's one of the worst ways. Commune is of the same level and much cheaper. I really wonder why Redcloak doesn't talk to the Dark One more often, we even know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) that he would be able to physically visit the DO's divine realm if he wanted to.

From SoD:
Redcloak has an artifact that gives him all the divine answers he needs to know.

Lerky

2010-02-23, 01:05 AM

I still enjoy being on team goblin :redcloak:
but I have a question:
are all flashbacks in scribble format?:smallconfused:

SoC175

2010-02-23, 01:41 AM

How so? He doesn't specifically mention anything on those lines, unless you are talking about planeshift. Planeshift is all it takes. He could walk up right to the gates of the Dark One's personal domain and ask for audience. Even if the DO himself might be too busy for his own one true prophet, he should at least get to talk to some high-ranking archangel of the DO.

One question keeps bugging me. Why was Jirix ressurrected? Wouldn't Raise Dead be more practical than Ressurrection?
Well, he already died twice. If he was decent- but not that high-leveld to begin with, he might be near to useless after a second raise dead (the first one would have already been harsh).

Personally I would find it highly unlikely that Redcloak would have wasted an resurrection on Jirix after his dead by Miko, but if the Giant says that this slain cleric was Jirix, than it almost has to be resurrection, because losing that first level would already greatly devalue Jirix.

From SoD:
Redcloak has an artifact that gives him all the divine answers he needs to know.
It imprinted him with knowledge of the original plan, but after that there doesn't seem to have been any direct conversation.

BlueWizard

2010-02-23, 02:11 AM

This is getting even better.

Even if Rich sticks to his rumored deadline, he could still expand on the world he has built, and continue a new series.

factotum

2010-02-23, 02:15 AM

He explicitly asks whether what Jirix described to the others really happened.

For him to ask in the first place, he cannot consider it to be outside the realm of the possible that Jirix was lying and it isn't even certain that he considers it to be unlikely.

It's the motive behind any potential lie we'd have to ask about. I assume Redcloak thought that Jirix might have made up his post-mortem visit to "encourage the troops" rather than for any malicious reason.

As for how Jirix would have said it if Redcloak had used Raise Dead--"thanks for the Raise Dead" or "thanks for raising me from the dead" would both have worked just fine.

Katana_Geldar

2010-02-23, 06:51 AM

I still enjoy being on team goblin :redcloak:
but I have a question:
are all flashbacks in scribble format?:smallconfused:

No, these are not flashbacks but I am not sure how to describe them.

These (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html) are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) flashbacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html).

Petrocorus

2010-02-23, 07:12 AM

No, these are not flashbacks but I am not sure how to describe them.

These (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html) are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) flashbacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html).

These are flashbacks from the characters' memory.

The crayons are when a character relate a past event to another one. I would say it's narration but there may be a better English word.

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 07:22 AM

Petrocorus

2010-02-23, 07:54 AM

I agree with "Exposition".

BTW, is the word "Crayons" usual in English?

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 08:07 AM

I agree with "Exposition".

BTW, is the word "Crayons" usual in English?

Crayons would be the plural of Crayon, ie multiple Crayons vs a single Crayon.

Edit: For some reason the word Crayon looks funny to me right now, that is the correct spelling isn't it? Nevermind, I'm sure it is.

Nimrod's Son

2010-02-23, 08:34 AM

BTW, is the word "Crayons" usual in English?
Yes, but it doesn't mean "pencil" as it does in French. It's the standard English word for these things:
http://beautifulwork.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/crayons.jpg
(ie. The medium Rich used to draw those parts of the comic.)

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 09:03 AM

Yes, but it doesn't mean "pencil" as it does in French. It's the standard English word for these things:
http://beautifulwork.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/crayons.jpg
(ie. The medium Rich used to draw those parts of the comic.)

Crayon means pencil in French? Then what is Crayon in French?

Petrocorus

2010-02-23, 09:20 AM

Crayon means pencil in French? Then what is Crayon in French?

I think you could use "crayon" in french as a short word, but the proper words are "craie de cire", which literally mean "wax chalk".

The fact is that pencils are really more used than crayons here.

Thank to Nimrod for the info.

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 12:07 PM

I think you could use "crayon" in french as a short word, but the proper words are "craie de cire", which literally mean "wax chalk".

The fact is that pencils are really more used than crayons here.

Thank to Nimrod for the info.

? Alright, all of that made sense except for the part about pencils being used more than crayons. What exactly did you mean there? I'm fairly certain pencils are used more than crayons everywhere. Crayons (at least over in America) are mostly used by kids for drawing, the vast majority of professional artists don't draw in crayon. The Giant however is simply so awesome that he can make Crayon drawings in his comics that look simply fantastic. I can't really describe it, but they give an awesome feel to the comic, as do the stick figures, which rather than being crappy art give a real brilliance to OotS, the comic just wouldn't the same otherwise. Not sure how those art styles turn out as awesome as they do, the Giant is just that good I guess.

Petrocorus

2010-02-23, 01:45 PM

Sorry Drolit.
From the last posts i got the feeling that crayons were more used than pencil in US. Got wrong apparently.

I myself always dislike using crayons. But, as you said, the Giant is good.

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 01:58 PM

Sorry Drolit.
From the last posts i got the feeling that crayons were more used than pencil in US. Got wrong apparently.

I myself always dislike using crayons. But, as you said, the Giant is good.

No need to apologize, I was just confused. Crayons aren't common in the US except for kids. All kids grow up drawing with crayons, I don't know if that's true across the pond. The Giant uses them to great effect, but that's pretty rare I think. At least I don't see it very often, I don't know everything.

Petrocorus

2010-02-23, 02:28 PM

Crayons aren't common in the US except for kids. All kids grow up drawing with crayons, I don't know if that's true across the pond.

The pond? You mean the ocean?

I remember myself that even as a young kid, i almost never used crayons. But i don't remember what other kids did, and i don't know what they use know.

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 02:36 PM

The pond? You mean the ocean?

I remember myself that even as a young kid, i almost never used crayons. But i don't remember what other kids did, and i don't know what they use know.

Across the pond is usually used by the British to mean either the US or Canada. Less commonly someone from the US (like me) or Canada uses across the pond to mean Britain and Europe. The pond does indeed refer to the the Atlantic Ocean.

Conuly

2010-02-23, 03:46 PM

Across the pond is usually used by the British to mean either the US or Canada. Less commonly someone from the US (like me) or Canada uses across the pond to mean Britain and Europe. The pond does indeed refer to the the Atlantic Ocean.

This is an example of liotes, where we take a big thing (the ocean) and humorously call it by a name for something very small (a pond).

No, you didn't need to know that, but isn't it nice?

Lerky

2010-02-23, 05:42 PM

These are flashbacks from the characters' memory.

The crayons are when a character relate a past event to another one. I would say it's narration but there may be a better English word.

ah, so when it's in crayon format it's when one character is talking about the past but otherwise their in normal format when it's just a memory. Gotcha.

(ie. The medium Rich used to draw those parts of the comic.)
wait, does Rich really use crayons to draw this part of the comic, or is it just something fancy he's doin' on the computer?

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 05:56 PM

ah, so when it's in crayon format it's when one character is talking about the past but otherwise their in normal format when it's just a memory. Gotcha.

wait, does Rich really use crayons to draw this part of the comic, or is it just something fancy he's doin' on the computer?

I thought he used actual crayons. I have no idea, I assumed he drew everything out then scanned it and edited with photoshop. I seem to recall somewhere he admitted he reused things like character poses, but that might be some other comic artist I'm thinking of.

Lerky

2010-02-23, 05:59 PM

I thought he used actual crayons. I have no idea, I assumed he drew everything out then scanned it and edited with photoshop. I seem to recall somewhere he admitted he reused things like character poses, but that might be some other comic artist I'm thinking of.

yeah literally just today in my graphic arts we learned how to make our drawings look like scribbles and I was wondering if that's how Rich did his crayon type things, he might've even created a unique stroke, and faded it out a little...

Drolyt

2010-02-23, 06:06 PM

yeah literally just today in my graphic arts we learned how to make our drawings look like scribbles and I was wondering if that's how Rich did his crayon type things, he might've even created a unique stroke, and faded it out a little...

Well looking at the strip again I've gotta say that it is quite possibly computer generated. Looking at the comic critically I'm gonna say it's pretty likely that he draws the lines and detail and all that but colors it digitally (which is the standard in the modern age), so the crayon is quite possibly a digital effect. Alternatively I think you could pull off the crayon look pretty easy with an Intuos or some other pen tablet. The only reason I'm not sure is that I coulda swore I read somewhere that it was hand drawn.

Petrocorus

2010-02-23, 06:37 PM

Looking at the comic critically I'm gonna say it's pretty likely that he draws the lines and detail and all that but colors it digitally (which is the standard in the modern age), so the crayon is quite possibly a digital effect.Alternatively I think you could pull off the crayon look pretty easy with an Intuos or some other pen tablet. The only reason I'm not sure is that I coulda swore I read somewhere that it was hand drawn.

I'm looking on the strip right now and i would say it is very well hand draw.
Look at Jirix's left eye in panel 5. In panel 6, the DO's boots, the lines doesn't connect perfectly. The purple of his head lightly spread out of the top and the ear. Their are some other little thing if you look well.
So, unless The Giant has on purpose made some imperfections to deceive us, i think it is hand made.

Syrus Dark

2010-02-23, 06:59 PM

Lerky

2010-02-23, 09:55 PM

I'm looking on the strip right now and i would say it is very well hand draw.
Look at Jirix's left eye in panel 5. In panel 6, the DO's boots, the lines doesn't connect perfectly. The purple of his head lightly spread out of the top and the ear. Their are some other little thing if you look well.
So, unless The Giant has on purpose made some imperfections to deceive us, i think it is hand made.

I dunno, if it was computer generated it seems very likely that a few imperfections would be made to make it more convincing
I kinda wanna ask Rich himself, because as a budding OOTS artist I'd love to learn how he does that style and maybe attempt to recreate it in one of my fancomic ideas

Zanaril

2010-02-24, 01:59 AM

Yes, but it doesn't mean "pencil" as it does in French.

I've often heard coloured pencils refered to as 'pencil crayons'. :smallconfused:

The only reason I'm not sure is that I coulda swore I read somewhere that it was hand drawn.

IIRC, the giant once mentioned having to 'find the crayons again' when he posted a comic with crayon drawings. Unless it was a joke, that implies he's using actual crayons.

factotum

2010-02-24, 02:19 AM

multilis

2010-02-24, 02:24 AM

Seems to me the easiest way to create art in that style would be to hand-draw it using crayons and then scan it in...any purely computer-based method of creating it would likely take MORE effort, not less.
I believe a crayon is easier than a mouse, but compared to a good tablet with pressure sensitive pen and good software... I think it comes down to what you have most practice with.

Most people have used paper and pencil for many years and software relatively little. 20 years from now tablet computers may be everywhere and people may instead rely on computer assisted drawing like most young people now rely on calculators for even simple math.

Nimrod's Son

2010-02-24, 03:09 AM

In a lot of the crayon strips, you can see his guide pencil-strokes showing underneath. Either he's drawing them with real crayons (as I've always assumed) or he's going to EXTRAORDINARY lengths to make it look like he is.

Drolyt

2010-02-24, 06:09 AM

Seems to me the easiest way to create art in that style would be to hand-draw it using crayons and then scan it in...any purely computer-based method of creating it would likely take MORE effort, not less. The normal OotS artwork is a different matter--the fact everyone's head is always a perfect circle suggests some computer assistance (yes, I know that a good artist can theoretically draw a perfect circle freehand, but to do that again and again, often multiple times per panel? Again, easier to use the computer).

Now this I'm fairly certain of, I swear I read somewhere that he reuses images. It's a simple matter with any decent image editor, you can make layers that are analogous to the cels of pre computer art. Basically if he were to create a number of "poses" for his characters he could copy and paste said poses rather than draw the character every time. So I think he draws the characters but I doubt he redraws them every time. Now as for what would be easier, crayon or computer, I'm not a very good artist but for me a pen tablet with good pressure is a hundred times easier. Actually without computer assistance I couldn't draw anything worth a damn. For The Giant who is an infinitely better artist than I am I'm sure those crayons would be fairly easy to hand draw, but I really can't say for sure. A pencil outline wouldn't prove anything if it were some sort of computer effect that traced the outline. I'm leaning towards hand drawn though.

Most people have used paper and pencil for many years and software relatively little. 20 years from now tablet computers may be everywhere and people may instead rely on computer assisted drawing like most young people now rely on calculators for even simple math.
Two points. First off most tablet PCs suck for drawing. You have to buy a dedicated drawing thing like a Cintiq or an Intuos. They aren't that terribly expensive, but they aren't exactly cheap. Secondly I doubt they will replace hand drawing anytime soon. Most people prefer the feel of pen on paper. For someone like me who sucks at drawing and is learning on an Intuos I find the thing to be a blessing from heaven, but to people who are used to drawing on paper it's not always an easy transition. The difference between a pen tablet and a calculator is that drawing is a very difficult skill that you learn over many years. I imagine that eventually computers may replace paper entirely, but 20 years? Even then some artists will prefer non computer methods.

kusje

2010-02-24, 11:09 AM

This is an example of liotes, where we take a big thing (the ocean) and humorously call it by a name for something very small (a pond).

No, you didn't need to know that, but isn't it nice?

I've never heard of a liotes and google doesn't seem to have any references to the term.

Drolyt

2010-02-24, 11:17 AM

I've never heard of a liotes and google doesn't seem to have any references to the term.

Wikipedia to the rescue! Litotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes). However I'm not sure that's the right word. Meiosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis_%28figure_of_speech%29) seems more appropriate.

Kalaska'Agathas

2010-02-24, 12:00 PM

Wikipedia to the rescue! Litotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes). However I'm not sure that's the right word. Meiosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis_%28figure_of_speech%29) seems more appropriate.

Fixed. And although Litotes and Meiosis (the figure of speech) are often considered synonymous, I would agree that Meiosis fits better for calling the Atlantic Ocean "the Pond".

Drolyt

2010-02-24, 12:13 PM

Fixed. And although Litotes and Meiosis (the figure of speech) are often considered synonymous, I would agree that Meiosis fits better for calling the Atlantic Ocean "the Pond".

Did I leave out the t or... not sure how that happened, the link was to the right place.
Edit: I fixed it. Litotes could technically be used that way, but I think Meiosis is a better word. I'm pretty sure there is another word that could describe it, it's on the tip of my tongue...

Petrocorus

2010-02-24, 12:21 PM

Edit: I fixed it. Litotes could technically be used that way, but I think Meiosis is a better word. I'm pretty sure there is another word that could describe it, it's on the tip of my tongue...

Euphemism would fit, i think, since it's a more general term which includes litotes.

Drolyt

2010-02-24, 12:24 PM

Euphemism would fit, i think, since it's a more general term which includes litotes.

Euphemism technically applies, yes, but that usually implies that you are using the euphemism because there is some taboo on using the original phrase, which is not the case here. I know there is another literary term for using a word that is essentially the opposite of exaggeration. Actually, what is the opposite of exaggeration? That might spark my memory.

Drolyt

2010-02-24, 08:40 PM

If Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_stick) is to be trusted, The Giant draws all his comics with Adobe Illustrator, a vector graphics program (which would explain the perfect shapes). So I guess maybe it isn't hand drawn.

Gift Jeraff

2010-02-24, 08:45 PM

Going by book 2's commentary, the crayon segments are hand-drawn.

Drolyt

2010-02-24, 09:11 PM

Going by book 2's commentary, the crayon segments are hand-drawn.

I thought that too, but it is just vague enough to be uncertain. Certainly The Giant must have stated somewhere how he draws his comics? Where else would Wikipedia have gotten its info, correct or not?

factotum

2010-02-25, 02:22 AM

Where else would Wikipedia have gotten its info, correct or not?

Er, it's WIKIPEDIA. Making stuff up with little or no evidence is pretty much what they do there!

Drolyt

2010-02-25, 06:48 AM

Er, it's WIKIPEDIA. Making stuff up with little or no evidence is pretty much what they do there!

Fair enough, but it still seems likely that there must be some data somewhere.

Nimrod's Son

2010-02-25, 09:01 AM

Certainly The Giant must have stated somewhere how he draws his comics? Where else would Wikipedia have gotten its info, correct or not?
From the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq3); the citation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_stick#cite_note-FAQ3-5) is on the page.

There's no contradiction there though. He uses Illustrator for the bulk of the strip, and draws the crayon sections by hand. The reason the crayon strips aren't mentioned there is because when the FAQ was last updated in early 2005, Rich hadn't drawn any yet.

As Gift Jeraff said, the NCftPB commentary confirms they are hand-drawn:

I've been drawing crayon sketches at conventions for fans from time to time, so I hit on the idea of drawing the whole flashback in crayon. It gave it a feeling of being a more primordial time to me, as if the smooth lines of the computer graphics evolved out of the messy crayon lines.

Math_Mage

2010-02-25, 09:58 AM

Er, it's WIKIPEDIA. Making stuff up with little or no evidence is pretty much what they do there!

Not to stick, though. And I think the commentary posted by Nimrod's Sun clears things up on both fronts.

Drolyt

2010-02-25, 11:59 AM

From the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq3); the citation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_stick#cite_note-FAQ3-5) is on the page.

There's no contradiction there though. He uses Illustrator for the bulk of the strip, and draws the crayon sections by hand. The reason the crayon strips aren't mentioned there is because when the FAQ was last updated in early 2005, Rich hadn't drawn any yet.

As Gift Jeraff said, the NCftPB commentary confirms they are hand-drawn:

Well, that's a fairly definitive answer on that. What was this thread originally about?

Snails

2010-02-25, 07:59 PM

I just wanted to say that Jirix didn't "lie" about the elves invasion per see, he actually thinks a bunch of elves invaded Gobbotopia, and V was only a part of the attack (Xykon comes to this conclusion in the six panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)comic)... The fact Team Peregrine appeared shortly after will probably only confirm Xykon's mistaken conclusion...

In fact, it is entirely likely that V is not the first powerful elven wizard to come after Xykon, so his guess is reasonable. Even if Lirian was a Druid, lingering in the vicinity of that gate would eventually draw the attentions of elven spellcasters of various stripes.

Kalaska'Agathas

2010-02-25, 09:31 PM

Euphemism technically applies, yes, but that usually implies that you are using the euphemism because there is some taboo on using the original phrase, which is not the case here. I know there is another literary term for using a word that is essentially the opposite of exaggeration. Actually, what is the opposite of exaggeration? That might spark my memory.

Well, according to The Simple English Wikipedia (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggeration) the opposite of hyperbole (a literary device which is essentially synonymous with exaggeration) is meiosis. Another antonym for hyperbole could be (specifically, verbal) irony, in which what is said opposes what is meant (intentionally), a form of which (when ridicule is also intended) is sarcasm (which ought not be attempted on the internet). Understatement, and litotes, may also be taken as antonyms of 'exaggeration', the latter especially in literature and poetry. I don't think euphemism applies, as it is something said in place of something else so as to avoid speaking of that something else, where as calling the Atlantic Ocean "the Pond" actually serves to (presumably humorously) highlight its size (by referring to it as a small body of water).

Garwain

2010-02-26, 06:33 AM

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 06:45 AM

Nice one.

It proofs who Jirix was all along, and who raised him the first time. The second time though, Redcloak ressurecting him, but ordered by Xykon.

But, if the Dark One needs Jirix alive, then why is the second ressurection ordered by Xykon? I'm really wondering if the Dark One is supporting Xykon. Maybe he needs the Snarl for his Blood War?

This post confused me for a minute and then it occurred to me, have you read Start of Darkness? That explains the Dark One's motives. And Xykon's and Redcloak's for that matter.

BillyJimBoBob

2010-02-26, 03:06 PM

Er, it's WIKIPEDIA. Making stuff up with little or no evidence is pretty much what they do there!

[Citation needed]

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 03:26 PM

[Citation needed]

Did you know that there was a proposed policy (thankfully shot down, but still enforced by some zealous editors) to ban any references on Wikipedia to sites that criticize Wikipedia? One fun way to do so is to ask for a citation. Sadly most internet sources do not show up in peer reviewed documents, so it's impossible to fight such a claim, regardless of truth value.

hamishspence

2010-02-26, 04:22 PM

I've noticed quite a bit of the animal-related stuff, especially prehistoric animals, have links to PDFs of the scientific papers being quoted.

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 04:25 PM

I've noticed quite a bit of the animal-related stuff, especially prehistoric animals, have links to PDFs of the scientific papers being quoted.

That's normal. They usually do a good job of citing things, although some articles cite a punch of academic papers that you can't access unless you are an academic (students can usually access it though).

hamishspence

2010-02-26, 04:30 PM

I noticed that.

People sometimes make edits that reduce the accuracy of the info. The Giganotosaurus page in particular seems to have undergone a lot of editing- the original page actually listed its high-end weight as around 6.2 tons, based on the scientific paper (for the largest specimen discovered), but people have been editing it to read more like 9-13 tons. Which is not consistant with the original research.

Compare this one

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Giganotosaurus

to the edited Wikipedia version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giganotosaurus

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 04:40 PM

I noticed that.

People sometimes make edits that reduce the accuracy of the info. The Giganotosaurus page in particluar seems to have undergone a lot of editing- the original page actually listed its weight as around 5.1 tons, based on the scientific paper, but people have been editing it to read more like 9-12 tons. Which is not consistant with the original research.

They shouldn't do that. They might have better info (hell if I know what a Giganotosaurus weighs, though 5.1 tons sounds more reasonable to be honest), but in that case they really need to cite it. It's hard to tell whether people doing that are vandals or just ignorant, but that's one of the reasons I don't trust Wikipedia (or any wiki) too far. I love it as a reference, but inaccurate info is more common than people think (the common claim that it has been proven more accurate than Brittanica isn't so much an argument for Wikipedia as against Brittanica).