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Yakk
2010-02-21, 10:01 PM
MP2 inspired build idea...

Ranger/Fighter/Swordmage/Rogue

Uses the Ranger at-will that is a throw, followed by a charge, together with the Fighter "fey step when you charge, and keep the fey step if you hit", together with the swordmage "make a basic attack when you fey step".

Weapon of choice is the greatspear (+3 to hit, reach, eladren weapon training) with an enchantment that lets you throw it.

Cheese used: Windrose ports for 4 classes (with hybrid and double MC), interpreting "both a thrown and melee weapon" to allow the same weapon to qualify, feycharge.

A typical turn would involve throwing the greatspear at a target, teleport-charging, making a basic attack when you land the teleport, making another basic attack at the end of the charge.

Rogue is included so it can roundabout charge, allowing you to charge the far side of a creature you are currently fighting (via teleport).

Thoughts?

AtopTheMountain
2010-02-21, 10:04 PM
MP2 inspired build idea...

Ranger/Fighter/Swordmage/Rogue

Uses the Ranger at-will that is a throw, followed by a charge, together with the Fighter "fey step when you charge, and keep the fey step if you hit", together with the swordmage "make a basic attack when you fey step".

Weapon of choice is the greatspear (+3 to hit, reach, eladren weapon training) with an enchantment that lets you throw it.

Cheese used: Windrose ports for 4 classes (with hybrid and double MC), interpreting "both a thrown and melee weapon" to allow the same weapon to qualify, feycharge.

A typical turn would involve throwing the greatspear at a target, teleport-charging, making a basic attack when you land the teleport, making another basic attack at the end of the charge.

Rogue is included so it can roundabout charge, allowing you to charge the far side of a creature you are currently fighting (via teleport).

Thoughts?

How are you multiclassing so much? You're limited to one other class to multiclass into, unless you start as a Bard, and even though I never picked up the Hybrid rules, I'm fairly certain you can't hybrid 4 classes. If you're a half-elf you might be able to pick up that Ranger At-Will as an Encounter power, but that still leaves you requiring having two different classes to multiclass into, which is against RAW. If you got rid of Rogue, then you MIGHT be able to pull it off, but even then it's iffy. EDIT: Oh, silly me. I just saw that thing about the windrose ports.
Also, if you threw the greatspear at the target, I'm pretty sure you can't then make a melee attack with it. Even if RAW is unclear, your DM will have to be blind or very allowing of total cheese to let that through.

Balricaso
2010-02-21, 10:52 PM
How are you multiclassing so much? You're limited to one other class to multiclass into, unless you start as a Bard, and even though I never picked up the Hybrid rules, I'm fairly certain you can't hybrid 4 classes. If you're a half-elf you might be able to pick up that Ranger At-Will as an Encounter power, but that still leaves you requiring having two different classes to multiclass into, which is against RAW. If you got rid of Rogue, then you MIGHT be able to pull it off, but even then it's iffy. EDIT: Oh, silly me. I just saw that thing about the windrose ports.
Also, if you threw the greatspear at the target, I'm pretty sure you can't then make a melee attack with it. Even if RAW is unclear, your DM will have to be blind or very allowing of total cheese to let that through.

PHB states a magic thrown weapon automatically returns to your hand after the ranged attack with it is resolved. Catching it is a free action. By RAW this works

Gralamin
2010-02-21, 10:57 PM
MP2 inspired build idea...

Ranger/Fighter/Swordmage/Rogue

Uses the Ranger at-will that is a throw, followed by a charge, together with the Fighter "fey step when you charge, and keep the fey step if you hit", together with the swordmage "make a basic attack when you fey step".

Weapon of choice is the greatspear (+3 to hit, reach, eladren weapon training) with an enchantment that lets you throw it.

Cheese used: Windrose ports for 4 classes (with hybrid and double MC), interpreting "both a thrown and melee weapon" to allow the same weapon to qualify, feycharge.

A typical turn would involve throwing the greatspear at a target, teleport-charging, making a basic attack when you land the teleport, making another basic attack at the end of the charge.

Rogue is included so it can roundabout charge, allowing you to charge the far side of a creature you are currently fighting (via teleport).

Thoughts?

Greatspears cannot usually be thrown: I assume you are locking yourself into using a Hungry Greatspear?

Edit: Silly me, read everything but the line about enchantment.
Hungry would likely be one of the best choices. I'll edit in any others I can find.
Edit2: Hungry only one Available. Can be found in AV2, as part of the "Golden Lion's Battle Regalia" Set. (AV2 98)

If you were to use a Sword instead, you could use Farbond Spellblade (AV2 18)

DragonBaneDM
2010-02-21, 11:18 PM
"Silly" me is the riding theme of this thread.

Colmarr
2010-02-21, 11:22 PM
Is this based on the troublesome interpretation of "must be wielding a thrown weapon and a melee weapon"?

Cause, if so, I suspect it won't be a viable build for long.

Edit: Nevermind. I'm not the first person you've tricked by cunningly hiding info in the text of your post! :smallredface:

Gralamin
2010-02-21, 11:37 PM
Is this based on the troublesome interpretation of "must be wielding a thrown weapon and a melee weapon"?

Cause, if so, I suspect it won't be a viable build for long.

Edit: Nevermind. I'm not the first person you've tricked by cunningly hiding info in the text of your post! :smallredface:

I swear, its like some sort of subtle trap.

Colmarr
2010-02-22, 12:58 AM
I swear, its like some sort of subtle trap.

We should form some sort of support group. S.O.Y.S (Survivors of Yakk's Subtlety).

Yakk
2010-02-22, 11:50 AM
It seems everyone understood the idea without a problem.

I'll admit that the use of a greatspear is more of an affectation -- but it does give you an extra [W] damage on that charge (there is a feat that gives you +[W] with light blades and spears on a charge ... with combat advantage, which you'll have via one of a myriad of mechanisms).

The build is going to be a ridiculous featovore -- probably too much of one.

I just find the idea of making 3 str vs AC attacks per round, and delivering static bonus damage 3 times, to be tempting as a near at-will. Plus, imagine what it would look like on the battlefield, with this Eladrin pole-vaulting through the feywild with a greatspear...

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-22, 11:53 AM
Shouldn't a FeyThrower be a Dwarf dual-wielding Eladrin? :smallconfused:

Kurald Galain
2010-02-22, 11:56 AM
Shouldn't a FeyThrower be a Dwarf dual-wielding Eladrin? :smallconfused:

Nobody Tosses A Dwarf!!!!

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-22, 11:57 AM
Nobody Tosses A Dwarf!!!!
Of course not - but those Eladrin are damn aerodynamic :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: "In the Feywild, Dwarf tosses YOU!" :smallcool:

lord_khaine
2010-02-22, 11:57 AM
Nobody Tosses A Dwarf!!!!

I think he means to throw the Eladrin


Shouldn't a FeyThrower be a Dwarf dual-wielding Eladrin?

You wont have any accuracy at all due to all the random teleporting though.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-22, 11:59 AM
You wont have any accuracy at all due to all the random teleporting though.
Blindfolds :smallamused:

Also: do Eladrin count as Magical Weapons because they're all... Fey and such? :smallconfused:

AgentPaper
2010-02-22, 12:02 PM
If you weren't worried about reach or large damage dice, the Tratnyr might be a better choice. Mostly, the issue is whether you value +1 to hit and +1 to damage (from bigger dice) and reach as more valuable than the various other magic items you could be using,(for example, you could use a lightning tratnyr and the mark of storm, which would let you slide the enemy around a bunch while you're doing all of this) and being able to hold another weapon (if you want to take twin-strike too) or using a shield.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-22, 12:09 PM
Blindfolds :smallamused:

Also: do Eladrin count as Magical Weapons because they're all... Fey and such? :smallconfused:

Hm, actually this reminds me of a 4E build that actually worked by throwing wolves at people...

(Anything you can pick up is an "improvised weapon". That includes wolves. A handful of feats exist that let you use them as heavy thrown, and increase their damage, and so forth; and since they're sentient creatures, they can walk back to you)

Yakk
2010-02-22, 12:09 PM
Accuracy is key to a Feycharger based build, as the combo stops once the charge attack misses.

I guess a longsword/trantyr combo would also work, and skip a layer of cheese.

Mordokai
2010-02-22, 12:28 PM
Hm, actually this reminds me of a 4E build that actually worked by throwing wolves at people...

(Anything you can pick up is an "improvised weapon". That includes wolves. A handful of feats exist that let you use them as heavy thrown, and increase their damage, and so forth; and since they're sentient creatures, they can walk back to you)

I would love to see that build! :smallbiggrin: If you can by any chance dig the link up, I'd be eternally grateful.

Not that it would be of much benefit to you :smalltongue:

AgentPaper
2010-02-22, 12:45 PM
Accuracy is key to a Feycharger based build, as the combo stops once the charge attack misses.

I guess a longsword/trantyr combo would also work, and skip a layer of cheese.

Sounds like a good idea. I think the multiclass rogue is also not really needed, so you can skip that. I'd also recommend taking the Blade of Cendarine PP, which gives you another +1 to hit after you make your teleport, as well as having some similar-themed teleportation powers and a +1 bonus to damage with your longsword attacks. It also lets you teleport 5 squares when you take an action point (before or after the action) so you could spend you could do the combo, spend an action point and teleport away, and then charge and do the combo again. :smalltongue:

Edit: forgot your turn normally ends after you charge, so you'd need to wait for epic levels and Unstoppable Charge to work this trick, actually. :smallredface:


Edit: Better idea! Use a Farbond Spellblade Glaive. Take Polearm Gambit, Heavy Blade Opportunity, and Mark of the Sentinel. Now, when you finish this combo, you end up 2 squares away from your enemy because you have reach. He then moves in to attack you, which gives you an opportunity attack. You shift backwards 1 square with Mark of the Sentinel, putting you at 2 squares away. This means you're in charging range, and you can use an at-will power for your attack, so you can pull off the combo again, and end up 2 squares away from him.

Since you're a hybrid fighter, take the Combat Superiority Hybrid talent, which means your target stops moving once he provokes the attack, which means he's wasted his move action It also makes your opportunity attacks absurdly accurate, so there's almost no chance of missing with your power!

ShaggyMarco
2010-02-22, 01:23 PM
But spending an action point after a charge lets you take the standard action before your turn ends...so it actually works.

AgentPaper
2010-02-22, 01:32 PM
But spending an action point after a charge lets you take the standard action before your turn ends...so it actually works.

Does it specifically say that somewhere? If not, I don't think it works. Your turn ends once you resolve the charge. If you spend an action point before or after the charge, you'd just have an extra standard action you can't do anything with.

Edit: Throw Fey Gambit in there to get free combat advantage after the teleport. Also, I noticed that ESA requires that you teleport adjacent to the enemy, so you wouldn't be able to use your reach, unless you somehow got a way to shift away after the attack. Hmm.

Edit: Edit: Best I can find is 2 pieces of the Eldritch Panonply, which lets you teleport 2 squares as a minor action after you've used a teleport power...which means this would only work during epic.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-22, 01:46 PM
Does it specifically say that somewhere? If not, I don't think it works. Your turn ends once you resolve the charge. If you spend an action point before or after the charge, you'd just have an extra standard action you can't do anything with.
It's actually within the text for Charge

No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action.

AgentPaper
2010-02-22, 01:50 PM
It's actually within the text for Charge

Ah, nice. I knew I should have just checked. :smalltongue:

Yakk
2010-02-22, 01:58 PM
Note to self: the ranger throw+charge power may never be permitted to be used at the end of a charge in place of a basic melee attack.

End note.

AgentPaper
2010-02-22, 02:49 PM
Aha! As your fighter at-will, take knockdown assault. Add in quick draw and Dragging flail. Quick-draw and use the flail for knockdown assault at the end of the charge, to slide the enemy 1 square away from you, then quick-draw your glaive for the attack granted by ESA.

This relies on the DM letting you also sheath a weapon with quick-draw, though it might also work if you instead held the glaive in your off-hand, drew and attacked with the flail, and then dropped the flail to make the other attack with your glaive again. Then you'd just have to carry a lot of flails around with you.

Yakk
2010-02-22, 02:54 PM
Why not just use the ESA before you finish the charge -- the ESA attack happens when you teleport, which happens before you attack on the charge, anyhow.

AgentPaper
2010-02-22, 03:08 PM
Why not just use the ESA before you finish the charge -- the ESA attack happens when you teleport, which happens before you attack on the charge, anyhow.

Hm, I guess it does happen before the charge attack, though it doesn't really matter too much. Just throw, hit with ESA, and then 1-hand the glaive and quick-draw your flail for knockdown assault. Then drop the flail to make the opportunity attack with the glaive, or if they don't provoke it, then just stash the flail as a minor action on your next round.