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View Full Version : Nietzchean "Last Man" BBEG: Suggestions?



Leliel
2010-02-21, 11:40 PM
Well, for a WoD campaign I'm planning on (New, not Old-just throwing that out there, so you don't suggest an allegiance to the Wyrm), I've decided on a theme of Hope vs. Nihilism-the struggle of ideals and social reform to avoid corruption by cynicism and fear of change.

Of course, I need someone who embodies that theme to serve as an arch-antagonist, and what instantly came to mind was the Last Man-the anti-Ubermensch.

For those of you not versed in philosophy, the Last Man is essentially a person who has become the embodiment of societal stagnation and hopelessness-one who has essentially, given up on trying to make a contribution to the world, positive or negative. His only goal is his own comfort and power, for the sake of comfort and power, feeding off decadence and social decay. The only morality or ethics he could be said to have, if any, is complete selfishness, ie, "the cosmos doesn't mean anything, so why not dedicate what a small life we live to ourselves?".

Now, this doesn't mean he isn't dangerous-far from it. After all, purposeless is terrifying if you're the target of it's schemes-it doesn't give one iota if you or your loved ones live or die, so it doesn't bother caring that it just destroyed your life just because.

However, RPing a completely nihilistic villain is a bit of a challenge so...

How would you play a villain whose only higher goal in life is making that life more comfy?

arguskos
2010-02-21, 11:44 PM
Utter disregard for anything that doesn't directly further his desires of being comfy. Players get in the way? Meh, kill them dispassionately, since they are between him and his recliner. Someone tries to prevent him from having a ham sandwich at this moment? Kill them too, for being annoying.

Basically, I'd play him like he just didn't care about anything but the impulsive concerns of the right now. Only comfort matters, and it only matters right now.

Gralamin
2010-02-21, 11:48 PM
Utter disregard for anything that doesn't directly further his desires of being comfy. Players get in the way? Meh, kill them dispassionately, since they are between him and his recliner. Someone tries to prevent him from having a ham sandwich at this moment? Kill them too, for being annoying.

Basically, I'd play him like he just didn't care about anything but the impulsive concerns of the right now. Only comfort matters, and it only matters right now.

For that matter, don't make him kill anything he doesn't have to. If it bleeds to death, that means he can step over them to get what they want. As long as they are out of the way, he couldn't care less.

arguskos
2010-02-21, 11:50 PM
For that matter, don't make him kill anything he doesn't have to. If it bleeds to death, that means he can step over them to get what they want. As long as they are out of the way, he couldn't care less.
Well, yeah, that's a good idea as well, though if he's more of a long-term comfort dude, he might just kill everything around him, so it can't bother him later, but I think that might be beyond his scope.

Flickerdart
2010-02-21, 11:51 PM
Certainly a nice alternative to the Nietzche Wannabe. I would make him a Psion that novas at the slightest provocation. There is a chair between me and my ham sandwich? Max-augment Energy Ray that sucker.

Gralamin
2010-02-21, 11:54 PM
Certainly a nice alternative to the Nietzche Wannabe. I would make him a Psion that novas at the slightest provocation. There is a chair between me and my ham sandwich? Max-augment Energy Ray that sucker.

Notice that this is WoD, not D&D, so Psion doesn't really fit. (Mage would though :smallamused: )

Riffington
2010-02-22, 05:22 AM
Well, the thing about the Last Man is that he isn't alone. He's a bureaucracy. You can convince any of the members of that group that you are right and they are wrong, and that their group's goals are detestable... but deep down, they'd rather be wrong and have a cushy job than right and do something about it. You threaten them, they flee. They won't give a proper fight alone - but they just keep coming back.

But if you want a single guy: model him on Ellsworth Toohey. He himself isn't the Last Man. Those are the people he wants to create. He isn't interested in buying and selling individual souls. "I play the stock market of the spirit and I sell short "

bosssmiley
2010-02-22, 05:41 AM
For those of you not versed in philosophy, the Last Man is essentially a person who has become the embodiment of societal stagnation and hopelessness-one who has essentially, given up on trying to make a contribution to the world, positive or negative. His only goal is his own comfort and power, for the sake of comfort and power, feeding off decadence and social decay. The only morality or ethics he could be said to have, if any, is complete selfishness, ie, "the cosmos doesn't mean anything, so why not dedicate what a small life we live to ourselves?".

<trim>

How would you play a villain whose only higher goal in life is making that life more comfy?

Paizo did quite well with this in the Rise of the Runelords series wherein each of the seven deadly sins corresponding to a school of magic. IIRC sloth was enchantment/charm: why do something yourself when you can have others do it for you? The sloth section of the 7-part planar dungeon was creepy, deserted and full of degenerated, apathetic remnants living off the achievements of their predecessors; imagine a classic dungeon decorated in sybaritic style but gradually rotting away simply because no-one can be bothered.

The old Wildspace module/setting for Spelljammer did similar with a reified manifestation of the Beholder's slow effect eye beam. It was this odd slug/filter feeder hybrid living in a giant nautilus shell and ruling over an aquatic lotus eater paradise. Part of the threat of the villain was that he removed agency from characters; his apathy and laziness were so all-encompassing that they became contagious.

If you want something more active, capricious is always a good motivation. The BBEG overcome with ennui, and is toying with the PCs because they're the first thing in years he isn't bored by.

@v: wasn't that a Heinlein character?

Kris Strife
2010-02-22, 06:54 AM
You could always go with what Terry Pratchet did, and have a very lazy person who keeps himself fit because its easier to move a strong, healthy body than one thats out of shape.

kemmotar
2010-02-22, 07:19 AM
I think you might also want to include the corruption and decadence part and the inability to understand why anyone wouldn't want what he wants and offers, thus when the PCs get in his way he gets it in his mind that they're trying to stop him only because they want to fulfill their unfulfilled desires.

Thus, when the PCs confront them instead of immediately fighting with them (a true sloth tries to avoid any conflict because it means that he is not giving in to some temptation) offers them the same life he has (after all company isn't all that bad, think roman *ahem*banquets*ahem*), he offers them temptation after temptation and exults the virtue of a life where you can have what you want. He invites them to give up and give in to a life most people could only dream about, after all it doesn't matter since you will die and you might as well make the most of it, not caring for anything else but yourself. Though I agree, that when he kills it should be dispassionate, kind of like a bother but with no moral implications.

Also, I don't think that the anti-ubermensch fits the bill of a psion/mage going nova because a chair was in his way. (Though I have yet to finish Zarathustra) The anti-ubermensch seems to me to be the "will of the masses" the societal moral restrictions. Also remember the part about other-worldliness, so perhaps add for him a hypocritical belief in a good god and the unshakable conviction that he will join that god in the after life and so doesn't care what he does in his current life. He just wants to have fun while it lasts and this life business is over so he can move on to the after life.

Physically, he doesn't need to be a walking blubber of fat or physically fit, if anything he should be average in most respects, not overly excited even about the indulgences he receives perhaps? Just utterly bored and complacent?

Project_Mayhem
2010-02-22, 07:34 AM
Sounds rather like the Camarilla ... I mean the Invictus

endoperez
2010-02-22, 09:32 AM
I think it could work well if his wants were various, and his answers unbelievably disproportionate. He has a dramatic flare. He likes big things, like cheering crowds, colosseums filled with water so real ships can do battle for his enjoyment, city-wide festivals and masquarades, plagues, wars, volcanic eruptions... He travels between these huge events, preferably via teleports. If things start going wrong (people start booing, the party is poor, someone tries to kill him), he just goes away.

If he wants something, he takes it. If someone shouts at him, he shoots. If someone is coming for him and he doesn't feel like fighting, he leaves. If he wants to fight, he goes into town and kills people until someone puts up a fight. If he wants Spartacus, he kills everyone. He doesn't try to destroy his opponents if he'd have to find them first, he just bombs the GENERAL AREA. Human lives mean nothing. Buildings mean nothing. Governments and leaders and rulers and hierarchies of power mean nothing. Families are nothing. If he doesn't like something, he throws something big at it and forgets about it.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-22, 10:11 AM
Lich version of Xylon (human one had hopes) fits in Order of the Stick.

Riffington
2010-02-22, 02:38 PM
So, I think many of you misunderstand what the Last Man is (kemmotar clearly an exception). He is not *supremely* lazy. Nor is he supremely callous. He is not wrathful. He's a "nice" guy who wants to be liked and believes that comfort is much more important than greatness. He just doesn't overthink that, and he doesn't value his principles over his self-interest.

It's rare that the Last Man would be a super-anything. It's just too much work and training. I mean, say he found himself with the ability to shoot webs out of his hands. Would he really want to make waves by showing that off? Hardly. He's already got a great 9-5, and webslinging doesn't factor in. For him to be a supervillain, he needs to be either an organization or some very special circumstances.

For an example of a supervillain of this type that a lot of you have seen: the Mayor from Buffy. He's a nice guy who does nice things and wants to be liked. Sure, his later plans may involve eating you, and there's absolutely no way you can harm him, but those are hardly reasons to be mean or rude.

Caxton
2010-02-22, 04:44 PM
Perhaps the villain, despite being powerful, has not attained comfort. Maybe he is wracked by some painful affliction, or maybe there is just one tiny little thing that constantly bothers him and is so annoying that it ruins everything. The villains goal would then be to remove this at any cost. It may be disconcerting for a party to find out that a whole nation was exterminated so that this guy can get a good nights sleep.

Overshee
2010-02-22, 05:07 PM
I'd have a Mage or Vamp at the top of a huge international company. Used his/her powers to manipulate his/her way to top, now is intent on staying there. Various tropes apply (Evil Is Sexy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy), Visionary Villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VisionaryVillain), Corrupt Corporate Executive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CorruptCorporateExecutive), Ubermensch (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ubermensch), Make A Better World (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MakeABetterWorld), etc.).

Last Man usually has a defined goal and isn't necessarily EVIL just maladjusted or with a very different view from normal people (for example Ozymandias from Watchmen [although views on this vary a bit]).

I think the fact that the Last Man thinks he's right and maybe isn't even that FAR from being right makes him scary, along with a big helping of the end justifies the means (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist).

Leliel
2010-02-22, 08:42 PM
I'd have a Mage or Vamp at the top of a huge international company. Used his/her powers to manipulate his/her way to top, now is intent on staying there. Various tropes apply (Evil Is Sexy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsSexy), Visionary Villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VisionaryVillain), Corrupt Corporate Executive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CorruptCorporateExecutive), Ubermensch (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ubermensch), Make A Better World (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MakeABetterWorld), etc.).

Last Man usually has a defined goal and isn't necessarily EVIL just maladjusted or with a very different view from normal people (for example Ozymandias from Watchmen [although views on this vary a bit]).

I think the fact that the Last Man thinks he's right and maybe isn't even that FAR from being right makes him scary, along with a big helping of the end justifies the means (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist).

Uh...Wrong Nietzchean concept.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-02-22, 09:00 PM
Yeah, when you cite "Ubermensch" as an example trope for Last Man, you're doing something really wrong. Unless you meant to refer to the paragraph in the trope description where it actually does describe the Last Man.

Semidi
2010-02-22, 09:59 PM
Jumping in here,

One of my favorite nwod antagonists the "Seers of the Throne" from mage would really fit this well. Being a part of a pentacle order is all about struggle with little reward whereas the Seers promise luxury at the price of absolute slavery. A lot of Seers aren't really all that into the Exarchs and are just in it for the power that the Exarchs offer.

I think an antagonist like that would be really cool, expecially when a large portion of the Seer activity is to create nihilism in the world as to make it a little bit more fallen and to cause people to lose hope.

Flarp
2010-02-22, 10:22 PM
Honestly, just take Ayn Rand's personality and beliefs and just slap them into whichever shell you like.

Overshee
2010-02-23, 12:02 AM
Uh...Wrong Nietzchean concept.


Yeah, when you cite "Ubermensch" as an example trope for Last Man, you're doing something really wrong. Unless you meant to refer to the paragraph in the trope description where it actually does describe the Last Man.

No, that's just me not having read TSZ in a while (I was 14 or 15) and combining the two ideas together when quickly finding relevant trope pages and a summary :smalltongue:



Plus I was 14 or 15 so I probably didn't understand it anyways :smallwink:

grautry
2010-02-23, 01:01 AM
Well, frankly, it's hard to make a villain who only wants to make his life more comfy. Why? Because that's how half of us behave.

If you want to go with that idea then I agree with one of the previous posters, do it Seers of the Throne style. It wouldn't exactly be the villain you proposed, but he wouldn't be far off.

So, instead of a villain that wants to make life comfy for himself, have one that wants to make life comfy for everyone else. At the cost of Enlightenment. That would make for a great mage game, IMO.

See, think of it in terms of social order and social control. This is a guy who encourages the local people to go to the church regularly. He makes a barbecue in his house every Sunday and invites his neighbours. He creates hobby clubs for children to participate in - and for their parents too. In a way, he's genuinely a nice guy, passionate about the safety and comfort of everyday life.

He's the type of guy that goes to the City Council and votes to ban occult items(satanic influences that threaten our children!). He definitely agrees that the government should have more power and more influence over our daily lives(it's the safety of everyone that matters, damn it!). If he finds anything that is outside what he considers 'normal' and 'safe' for Sleepers to witness, he does his very best to squash it. You know so that they're safe.

And when everyone is content with their 9-to-5 American Dream lifestyle, when they don't ever think about anything outside the typical bubble of normality that surrounds a suburb, when their children are enjoying schools and hobbies - he considers his job done. Another couple of souls that are so in love with their Sleep that they will never consider to Awaken.

Tiktakkat
2010-02-23, 01:02 AM
Honestly, just take Ayn Rand's personality and beliefs and just slap them into whichever shell you like.

"Who is John Galt?", as it were. :smallwink:

DabblerWizard
2010-02-23, 07:50 AM
I'm not very familiar with Nietzsche, but the way the Last Man has been described, makes him sound like an egoistic hedonist.

The world doesn't matter, all that does, is comfort. Since comfort is a kind of pleasure, he diversifies his investment portfolio (so to speak) and seeks any pleasure he can, to make his last days the most enjoyable.

In other words, attaining the highest amount of pleasure for myself, at any given moment, is all that matters.

The party members reach the BBEG's room, and find him taking a nap. They start screaming at him if he's recently allowed some sort of atrocity to occur, but contending with an angry group of players is far from pleasurable, so he just ignores them and walks off to find some other pleasurable activity.

If the BBEG finds evil actions pleasurable, then he'll likely attack the players, or just throw them into a tank of sharks, and get some overly buttered and salted popcorn.

Nerdanel
2010-02-23, 08:46 AM
Have the Last Man be the ruler of the heroes' faction who acts apathetic in the face of every threat that doesn't touch him personally. "So someone has been killing our people? Good thing my place has quality security. And no, you won't get any material aid. I want to buy a new palace and those don't come cheap."

If you do it right, eventually the heroes will join a movement to overthrow their ruler, in which case the Last Man finally starts to pay attention and takes his position as the BBEG.

Riffington
2010-02-23, 03:02 PM
Since apparently Zarathustra isn't required reading:

Lo! I show you the Last Man.

"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?" -- so asks the Last Man, and blinks.

The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. His species is ineradicable as the flea; the Last Man lives longest.

"We have discovered happiness" -- say the Last Men, and they blink.

They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loves one's neighbor and rubs against him; for one needs warmth.

Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbles over stones or men!

A little poison now and then: that makes for pleasant dreams. And much poison at the end for a pleasant death.

One still works, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.

One no longer becomes poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule? Who still wants to obey? Both are too burdensome.

No shepherd, and one herd! Everyone wants the same; everyone is the same: he who feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.

"Formerly all the world was insane," -- say the subtlest of them, and they blink.

They are clever and know all that has happened: so there is no end to their derision. People still quarrel, but are soon reconciled -- otherwise it upsets their stomachs.

They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.

"We have discovered happiness," -- say the Last Men, and they blink.

Hiest, monkey
2010-02-23, 03:33 PM
Perhaps he isn't even readily a villian. Sure he might give little thought to high morals and other such human inventions, but he's not a thoughtlessly violent person, and he doesn't take rash unpredicted actions. He simply exists, and revels in that existance.

But, oops: he was born the only heir to the throne. So now a dangerously incompetent, or perhaps senslessly nonchalant man (or woman) is managing your everyday life, taxes and the army. This man is swayed by the incorrect impulses of the masses in an effort to be well liked. He is pushed ofte to make descisions he regrets, and enough times his well meaning plans backfire, and he recedes into the background, allowing advisors to take control, the economy to collapse, and further troubles to ensue.

Sure, a Machiavellian player character would decide that assassination will bring a healthier world order and further the common good by sacrificing one life.

Now let's say this king has several heirs, too many heirs even. And plenty of illegitamate ones, too :smallwink:. Not only are you left with a power vaccuum if he dies but a fragmentation of a society based on a monarchy.

Of course, some crackpot NPC's are constantly trying to kill him, and his underlings are all struggling to gain some measure of power under him. Our Last Man is forced (as far as he can tell) to institute martial law and crack down. The "why" is confidential. All the public sees is a corrupt, incompetent glutton who opresses his people, in short, a tyrant. In reality, this king is very much a great leader, if untrained, and his removal would cause a lot of trouble.

This villian does not really want to rule, and isn't interested in social upheaval, but his personal philosophy makes him a poor leader. Think a more benevolent and slightly more competent King Louis XVI, who listens far too much to the advice of the lower class and the media.

This character would make a great twist, imagine hunting a tyrant and supporting a revolution for months only to find that your efforts have probably only harmed society. The real villian could be a more evil Robbes-Pierre, a revolutionary who would harm society with his ideas, obsessed as he is.

thegurullamen
2010-02-23, 06:25 PM
I might be mistaken, but I think Nietzsche said nihilism starts with irrational hope that ends with disillusionment. Have your villain be the promising son of an enormous family who practically invented the word "legacy". They can trace their wealth and influence back to the family's founders. Even today, when individuals make more difference than such dynasty-minded enclaves, they take credit for society as a whole.

Here's a bio:

In his youth, TLM lived under the auspices of extreme luxury but always under the impression that he, as a significant member of society, deserved it. His arrogance about the subject was always tempered by the enormous challenges ahead of him and the weight of the family name. Later in life, he studied politics and history and the other social sciences, readying himself to step up and take control of the world the way his forefathers had.

After some successes with third world localities, TLM expanded his scope to international projects and met with the limits of his abilities. Frustrated but unwilling to accept defeat, he pushed his beliefs harder, unknowingly shoveling hardships upon the people he was trying to help. Unable to take such a dismal failure from one of their own, the families intervened their influence to put a positive spin on everything. Before long, TLM was wrapped in a cocoon of yes-men and press coverage, blinded to the damage he'd done by the society that raised him. So protected, he continued his damaged political activities.

Then dawned the age of information. News of his horrible past trickled in to him at first, ignorable for the most part until legitimate sources turned up similar results. Then more followed. And more. The press finally jumped on the issue, unable to ignore it any longer without losing credibility. Together, they tore TLM's reputation to shreds. Countries called for restorations from TLM's pockets. Suits were filed. The UN intervened. None of it came to anything, but the damage was done. TLM went into hiding out of shame.

Since then, he's been brooding over his failures. He doesn't leave his home for fear of recognition. He doesn't do anything but fritter away his life on pleasures he'd long since given up as petty, all of it in the search for better escapism. He has a vault of drugs and indulges more each year. The companies he started in his youth are full of corruption and kill more than three thousand people a year, but he covers them because they insure his habits. His advisers take care of the empire in his stead and give carte blanche to TLM's CEOs so long as they turn a profit. Any change has to begin with them, but has to be authorized by TLM whose too incapacitated or apathetic to care.