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View Full Version : Sorcerer / Incantrix Help Needed (3.5)



sleepydwarf
2010-02-22, 02:11 AM
Hi Board,

I am starting a new campaign shortly and have had approval from the DM to take a Sorcerer and eventually go into the Prc Incantrix. The main reason this has been allowed is that the DM trusts me not to kill his campaign by over powering everything, or at least, not to do it all the time :smallamused:

My problem though is that I have to make the character with a 25 point buy :smallconfused: I know that a sorcerer needs Cha and the Incantrix needs Int so I am unsure of how to make the character. The DM has said that we will starting at level 1, core races only (DMG, PHB for races). Oh, and no flaws allowed:smallfrown:

Any advice about the structure of the character and what feats / stats I should go for will be greatly appreciated. I am currently thinking about either a halfling or a gnome for the race, but I am open to other / better ideas.

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance offered.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-22, 02:25 AM
With no flaws and probably no Otyugh Hole, you're going to be starved for feats, so I'd go human. You'll also need the extra mental stats, so I'd go middle aged (there's no rule stating sorcerers have to magically mature at a young age, so an older level 1 sorcerer works out). Any older and you're getting really weak and vulnerable in the physical stats. I guess I'll conjure up a sample stat line:

PB 9 11 11 13 9 17 >> 0+3+3+5+1+13=25
Middle Aged line: 8 10 10 14 10 18
It's going to be hard to get more INT without seriously gimping yourself in other areas.

Have you talked to your DM about a custom magic item of +spellcraft some time down the line? That makes things go extra-smooth for Mr. Incantatrix. Once you get to incantatrix, I suggest focusing on persisting party buffs so you get to be super-effective without outshining the group. To that end, you're going to need chain spell, extend spell --> persistent spell, and probably reach spell.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 02:58 AM
Incantatrix doesn't need Int toooooo badly. You need it for the Spellcraft checks, and for uses of your abilities. The former is kinda non-important, because a competence item makes skill checks a joke, and the latter can be fixed with an item or something (you don't need all that much anyway).

valadil
2010-02-22, 11:08 AM
IIRC correctly, incantatrix requires 3 or 4 skills to be maxed out. A human should have 10 or 12 int. A race that doesn't get a skill bonus will need 12 or 14. At 25 point buy, going beyond 14 is probably too expensive.

18 cha plus 14 int and con will cost you 28 points. Lowering charisma to 17 would work and at 25 pb you can probably afford to drop your casting stat. You won't need much wisdom since you'll have a good will save. Low dex is gonna suck though. You probably won't want too many touch attacks unless you can increase dex somehow.

Eldariel
2010-02-22, 11:31 AM
25pb Incantatrix SORCERER? Yeah, you're gonna have some issues. Drop to 16 starting Cha, 12 starting Int and pick up some Dex and Con. On level 1, you really need those stats. 8/14/14/12/8/16 would be a 26pb; gotta cut 1 point somewhere. You could go Middle-Aged with only 12 Con or Dex, but I wouldn't go any lower than that. Maybe 7/14/12/12/10/16 (0/8/5/3/1/8). Honestly, Wizard would be so much better here. 17 Int, 14 Con, 14 Dex, call it a day.

Do note, you CAN make do with 10 Int tho. You only need to max out 3 skills in Concentration, Spellcraft & Knowledge (Arcane).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-22, 11:34 AM
If I may...why sorcerer? Isn't Wizard a much better option? thoug since you are allowed to enter incantrix maybe being a wizard is pushing it TOO far....

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-22, 03:35 PM
Oh noes, I is a MAD incantatrix, woe is me!
Seriously, every caster should rely on two stats.
You don't need to worry about optimization, and you don't allways have to start w/ an 18!

faceroll
2010-02-22, 03:44 PM
Oh noes, I is a MAD incantatrix, woe is me!
Seriously, every caster should rely on two stats.
You don't need to worry about optimization, and you don't allways have to start w/ an 18!

Srsly.
You're a t2 class with a hilariously broken prestige class. You'll be fine.

sleepydwarf
2010-02-22, 08:29 PM
If I may...why sorcerer? Isn't Wizard a much better option? thoug since you are allowed to enter incantrix maybe being a wizard is pushing it TOO far....

Why sorcerer? Because I like the idea of unprepared casting. Being able to pick the spell at the time needed rather than trying to guess what will be needed just works better for me.

But having said that, my DM has approved Wizard / Incantrix, so if it would be better to go that path, then I will definately need alot of ideas on stats, feats etc and also on my spell list. This is mainly because I have never taken a wizard before. Played a Sorcerer a few times, mostly in a purely support roll, going for battle control (gotta love color spray and grease spells :smallamused: )

Thanks to everyone for the help so far, defiantely given me things to think about.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-22, 11:32 PM
Honestly, I can completely understand why going into Incantatrix as a Sorcerer... fewer banned schools. Just ban evoc and call it a day, no specialization required.

Dyllan
2010-02-22, 11:45 PM
You can be an nonspecializing Wizard... just as many schools available as a Sorcerer that way.

I strongly suggest Wizard if you plan to go the buff route though, because you will really want a larger selection of spells known.

What sources are available for spell selection?

What you'll want to start each day with is whatever spells you can find that will increase your spellcraft checks. Heroism is a nice one (and later Greater Heroism) to persist, as it gives other bonuses in addition to increasing your skill checks. If you don't have a +4 or higher int item, Fox's Cunning is quite helpful. That will make persisting everything much easier. Your ultimate goal should be to eventually make spells of any level persistent and chained without a chance of failing a roll. Whether that's really feasible is questionable, but the closer you get the better.

Also, don't forget that you can persist spells cast by others. The party Cleric is your best friend (and you're his best friend), as clerics get pleanty of good Buff spells.

Let us know if you're going for the persist/chain buff thing, and as a Wizard, and what books you can use, and I"ll get you a better list of suggestions.

sleepydwarf
2010-02-23, 12:58 AM
For what sources available for spell list.......basically any published source is accepted, between all of us, I cant think of a book that we dont have :smallbiggrin:

DM just being nasty at the creation side in restricting us so much.

The idea of persisting everything, along with chaining them, definately sounds like a good thing, and my intentions with the character is to be buffing the rest of the party as much as possible. So it sounds liek I am swapping to Wizard / Sorcerer :smallfrown:

Endarire
2010-02-23, 01:04 AM
I highly advise Wizard. Spontaneous spell access is much less potent when you rely on a small number of potent spells. If you're out of haste, you may be able to compensate with stinking cloud or glitterdust.

Also, Wizards of the Coast loves Wizards and gimps Sorcerers. There's good reason for class tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

faceroll
2010-02-23, 01:06 AM
Uncanny Forethought, a feat from Exemplars of Evil, let's a wizard cast any spell he knows as a full round action, from any prepared spell slot. So you basically get spontaneous casting.

Horribly cheesy, though.


I highly advise Wizard. Spontaneous spell access is much less potent when you rely on a small number of potent spells. If you're out of haste, you may be able to compensate with stinking cloud or glitterdust.

Also, Wizards of the Coast loves Wizards and gimps Sorcerers. There's good reason for class tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

Tiers rank how well you can shaft the DM's plans. If you think your DM will take you smashing his campaign alright, then go with the obnoxiously played wizard. Otherwise, sorcerer will be just fine. I've had DM's arbitrarily nerf wizard strategies mid-game because he didn't want teleportation effects ruining his plans.

Arakune
2010-02-23, 07:20 AM
Why sorcerer? Because I like the idea of unprepared casting. Being able to pick the spell at the time needed rather than trying to guess what will be needed just works better for me.

But having said that, my DM has approved Wizard / Incantrix, so if it would be better to go that path, then I will definately need alot of ideas on stats, feats etc and also on my spell list. This is mainly because I have never taken a wizard before. Played a Sorcerer a few times, mostly in a purely support roll, going for battle control (gotta love color spray and grease spells :smallamused: )

Thanks to everyone for the help so far, defiantely given me things to think about.

Tere are ways to get spontaneous casting for your wizard. Look at Doc Rock dirty tricks or the Test of Spíte. Some very hilarious results.

Dyllan
2010-02-23, 02:49 PM
Alright, if you have access to all spells, and definitely want to go Wizard, then here's some suggestions:

Gear: Get the best +Int item you can. And if your DM allows it, get a +10 ring of Spellcraft (should be priced like the other skill rings in the DMG).

Progression: Wizard 5/Incantrix 10/any full caster PrC or just Wizard
Feats: - I'm running this assuming you're human so you can get the extra Feat

1 (level): Iron Will (Prerequisite)
1 (human): Skill Focus: Spellcraft (I know, Skill Focus sucks, but +3 to your checks means you can reliably add metamagic feats one level higher than you previously could)
3 (level): Extend Spell
5 (wizard): Persistent Spell
6 (level): Easy Metamagic: Persistent Spell
6 (Incantrix): Chain Spell
Past that, you've got everything you need to buff people, so choose whatever you wish. Magical Aptitude could further help your Spellcraft skill. Further metamagic feats could help too.


At level 7, you can now use Cooperative Metamagic to Persist a spell cast by the Cleric (or other allied spellcaster). Your DC is 18+3 per adjusted level (ie, spell level +5). So for a 1st level spell, you need a 36 on a Spellcraft check. Assuming your DM lets you take the ten, you need +26. To do it to a level 4 spell (presumably the highest that can be cast by your allies), you need +35.
You'll have 10 ranks, +3 from skill focus, +4 from Int (plus any Int item)... so a base of 17. You can't even use this class feature unless you roll a 19, or have magical help.
If your DM lets you get a +10 Ring, you can now Persist Level 1 spells without a roll. However, you still need 8 more to your skill to persist level 4.
With a +6 int item, that leaves you needing 5. If your DM allows aid another on this, that's another +2 (I wouldn't unless the other was also an Incantrix they don't know how to do what they're aiding with, even if they do have Spellcraft ranks)

Assuming you plan to persist spells of the highest available level, you need to keep finding more bonuses, as new spells are available every 2 levels, but increase the required skill check by 3.

Here's spells that you'll want to use to help with that skill check:

Cleric 0:
Guidance (PHB) - +1 Competence bonus on one skill roll (doesn't stack with Ring of Spellcraft, if you have such an item)
Cleric 2:
Share Talents (PHB2) - +2 Unnamed bonus to any skill you or the other target has.
Cleric 3:
Prayer (PHB) - +1 Luck bonus on skills (plus other bonuses)

Druid 0:
Guidance (PHB) - +1 Competence bonus on one skill roll (doesn't stack with Ring of Spellcraft, if you have such an item)

Bard 1:
Share Talents (PHB2) - +2 Unnamed bonus to any skill you or the other target has.
Bard 2:
Heroism (PHB) - Gives a +2 Morale bonus on skill checks (among other things)
Bard 5:
Greater Heroism (PHB) - Gives a +4 Morale bonus on skill checks (among other things)

Wizard 2:
Fox's Cunning (PHB) - +4 Int, if you don't have at least a +4 int item
Mechanus Mind (SpC) - +2 Competence bonus on Int based skill checks, among other things (doesn't stack with Ring of Spellcraft, if you have such an item)
Share Talents (PHB2) - +2 Unnamed bonus to any skill you or the other target has.
Wizard 2:
Heroism (PHB) - Gives a +2 Morale bonus on skill checks (among other things)
Wizard 6:
Greater Heroism (PHB) - Gives a +4 Morale bonus on skill checks (among other things)

Ranger 2:
Share Talents (PHB2) - +2 Unnamed bonus to any skill you or the other target has.


As for other spells, just look for what you can get to buff everything you can. Go through the Spell Compendium thoroughly.

Edit: I forgot the synergy bonus from Knowledge:Arcana. I also forgot the feat Precocious Apprentice. That one gives you early access to a level 2 spell, 1 extra level 2 spell known, 1 extra level 2 spell slot and +2 to spellcraft checks. I'd definitely take that first level. You can get another +2 from the Spellwise feat from FRPG.

Add all those together, you have a new feat progression:
1st: Precocious Apprentice
1st: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
3rd: Iron Will
5th: Extend Spell
6th: Persistant Spell
6th: Easy Metamagic: Persistant Spell
9th: Spellwise
10th: Chain Spell
12th: Magical Aptitude

So by level 12, you will have Spellcraft ranks 15, +2 Synergy, +8 feats, +10 item, +4 Greater Heroism, +2 Shared Talents, +7 Int (assuming +6 item or spell and 20 Int) = +46. You can make a DC 56 Spellcraft by taking a 10. What's that equate to? Level 12 spell equivalent auto-success by taking a 10. You can, as an example, Persist a level 7 spell (which you can't cast yet). Or Persist AND chain a level 4 spell. At level 13 you'll be able to do that with level 8 and 5 spells. At 15 you'll get the metamagic reduction from Incantrix, and be able Persist a level 9 and chain and persist a level 7 spell.

At this point, your entire party are made into gods each morning, by you, with the assistance of any other spellcasters in the party who can throw buff spells.