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djk
2010-02-22, 05:26 AM
We had an interesting situation in our first game.
One of us played Screw This: Recurring Villain on a monster from the Xykon Deck just after it was defeated.

I see three options for how this situation could be handled.

(1) Put that monster into the battle deck. Problem: the monster will be obvious because it has a black Xykon Deck back rather than a brown Battle Deck card.

(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck. Problem 1: the screw this card says to put it back into the Battle Deck. Problem 2: adding an extra monster to the Xykon Deck can lead to a situation where you explore all the rooms in Xykon's Lair, but don't find Xykon. (This is in fact what happened to us.):smallfrown:

(3) Forbid use of Recurring Villain on any monster that came from the Xykon Deck. Problem: the card says "any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon)".
The card could say "... defeats a Monster from the Battle Deck" or "... defeats a Monster (other than a Monster from the Xykon Deck)", but it doesn't, it only excludes Xykon.

Did we misunderstand something?
Should the screw this card be changed (via errata) to clarify which of these options should apply?

prj
2010-02-23, 12:22 PM
One of us played Screw This: Recurring Villain on a monster from the Xykon Deck just after it was defeated.

I would probably handle that by discarding the monster. The player is still denied the X, but you don't have to worry about the trouble that comes from having the monster come back.



(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck.


This could also work. If you're using the "Xykon's Not Here, Man" optional rules, or if you're willing to switch to them when this situation arises, then this fits pretty naturally.

Zelthax
2010-02-23, 10:46 PM
I would say anything but option 3.

Option 1 would make sense from both a logistics and roleplaying point of view:
It goes into the Battle Deck. Alright, makes sense, and most people are clearing the Xykon floor, so Battle Deck chances of drawing it are low. Once Xykon is defeated, no new monster battles are triggered, so you wouldn't have to worry about it anyway. If it is drawn, however, the black back would serve as an indicator for roleplaying- if a particularly tough monster returns, generally, there's a clue that he/she/it's coming- this visually represents that sense of foreboding.

Option 2



(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck.
This could also work. If you're using the "Xykon's Not Here, Man" optional rules, or if you're willing to switch to them when this situation arises, then this fits pretty naturally.


There's my two cents!

djk
2010-03-01, 11:13 PM
This could also work. If you're using the "Xykon's Not Here, Man" optional rules, or if you're willing to switch to them when this situation arises, then this fits pretty naturally.

We ended up switching to the "Xykon's Not Here, Man" optional rules when we ran out of rooms in Xykon's lair. It seemed a bit ad hoc and anti-climactic, but at least it was better than saying the game was unfinishable / had no result.

When Recurring Villian was played, we basically rejected option 1 out of hand because it didn't seem right to mix brown Battle Deck cards and black Xykon Deck cards. I think now we were too hasty is discounting option 1.

I guess I should post a summary of this issue to the Rules thread and see if anyone wants to give a ruling on where a recurring villain taken from the Xykon Deck should be placed (1 shuffle into Battle Deck, 2 shuffle into Xykon Deck, 3 discard or 4 you can't - that's prohibited).

Silanthous
2010-03-03, 06:08 AM
Recurring Villain text.
When: Immedicately after any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon).

Effect: The Monster is not saved by that player, and is instead shuffled back into the Battle Deck. It does not drop and Loot into the room in which it was beaten.

there are 6 card out of 10 in the Xykon deck that drop loot, one of them being Xykon, but considering the battle size of the rooms loot can't be the reason this card is played, the player is gonna get at least 3 more loot to show up. so i assume this is being used to prevent the monster from being saved for shticks. if that is the case i direct you to the rule book.

Page 27 Heading: Saving Xykon Cards

Xykon cards cannot be saved to gain shticks; note that they do not have the red X symbol. (the same 6 mobs have red X's but i assume it is a typo based off the game questions thread, reguardless the no saving statement is pretty clear).

Instead, when a Xykon card is defeated, flip it face down in the room. The card remains there for the rest of the game.

Do not draw new Xykon cards in any room with a Xykon card, weither it is face up or face down. Only one Xykon card ever gets drawn for any given Xykon's Lair room.

while none of these statements specifically forbid the use of a Recurring Villain play except on Xykon, i hardly see the point of doing so and causing a head ache merely to prevent a few loot from droping that will be part of a large pile anyway and therefor fought over by the whole party.

Though the only 1 Xykon card being drawn for any given Xykon's Lair room statement would make you un-able to draw the card even if it was in the battle deck.

I would also like to point out the Guard Monster, arguably the strongest monster in the game becouse "i forgot they could do that" can't weaken him, has no loot and no X's, making me question Xykon cards droping loot at all.

Edit:
Upon reading through the updated FAQ i would suggest that the card be flipped like the rules origionally intended when recurring villian is played, i also suggest that the cards be placed face down in their origional rooms for conformities sake when they are traded in.

djk
2010-03-03, 04:45 PM
Recurring Villain text.
When: Immedicately after any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon).

Effect: The Monster is not saved by that player, and is instead shuffled back into the Battle Deck. It does not drop and Loot into the room in which it was beaten.

so i assume this is being used to prevent the monster from being saved for shticks. if that is the case i direct you to the rule book.

Page 27 Heading: Saving Xykon Cards

Xykon cards cannot be saved to gain shticks; note that they do not have the red X symbol. (the same 6 mobs have red X's but i assume it is a typo based off the game questions thread, reguardless the no saving statement is pretty clear).

Instead, when a Xykon card is defeated, flip it face down in the room. The card remains there for the rest of the game.

Do not draw new Xykon cards in any room with a Xykon card, whether it is face up or face down. Only one Xykon card ever gets drawn for any given Xykon's Lair room.



That first paragraph about Xykon cards not being saved to gain shticks is deleted by the Errata (which I got on paper with my card, but it is also included in the FAQ).

I'm not sure what to do about the second paragraph - with the first paragraph deleted (so you can save Xykon cards for shticks) it doesn't make much sense to leave the Xykon card in the room if a player wants to save it.

I would replace the first sentence of the second paragraph with "When a Xykon card is defeated, if the victor does not save the card to gain shticks, flip it face down in the room." The logic is that instead of having a Xykon deck discard pile, discarded Xykon cards stay in the room they came from.

However, this does raise a potential new problem. If a Xykon card is kept by the player who defeated it, and later all the other monsters in the room are cleared (defeated or moved) and no players are left in the room, then there could be confusion about whether the rules for an empty room apply if a player goes back into that room. If there was a flipped Xykon card in the room, that would avoid the confusion - its clearly not empty.

This raises another possibility for how we might have handled the pickle we got into, instead of changing to the "Xykon's Not Here, Man" rules at the last minute.

We could have (as a special/temporary house rule) suspended the "Only one Xykon card ever gets drawn for any given Xykon's Lair room." rule, and allowed a second Xykon card to be drawn for a Xykon's Lair room (if that room was empty when a player entered it - no monsters, no flipped Xykon cards and no players) after Xykon's Lair had been completely explored.

Or another way to look at it would be to treat the rule as "Only one Xykon card ever gets drawn for any given Xykon's Lair room, unless all Xykon's Lair rooms have been explored already and there is a card remaining in the Xykon Deck."
99% of the time these two rules would be the same - the only time they would be different is if a card was returned to the Xykon deck and Xykon the Lich was not defeated before all Xykon's Lair was explored.

prj
2010-03-03, 11:54 PM
If there was a flipped Xykon card in the room, that would avoid the confusion - its clearly not empty.

I don't think a flipped Xykon Deck card is supposed to stop new battles from being started in that room. I think it's just supposed to mark the fact that no more Xykon Deck cards should be played into that room. Normal battles can still happen.

djk
2010-03-04, 02:23 AM
I don't think a flipped Xykon Deck card is supposed to stop new battles from being started in that room. I think it's just supposed to mark the fact that no more Xykon Deck cards should be played into that room. Normal battles can still happen.

Good point, I agree.

So a question to everyone. When you defeat a Xykon Deck monster with X's, do you put that monster with your other defeated monsters (for gaining shticks) or flip it and leave it in the room?

It seems clear that if you have a non-monster Xykon card you leave it in the room, and a defeated Xykon Deck monster with no X (ie Guard Monster) would be flipped and left in the room.

I guess a way you could resolve the conflict between saving X's for shticks versus flipping and leaving in the room would be to take another monster with the same number of X's from the battle discard pile and the victor saves that; then the actual defeated monster could be flipped and left in the room.

Zelthax
2010-03-04, 07:29 AM
My group cracks out a small whiteboard and keeps track of XP there. (We bracket "Double X's", no worries!) That way we don't have to keep up with ridiculous amounts of cards in 8-9 level dungeons, and Xykon cards can remain flipped in the room. A whiteboard is useful for keeping track of many things: Great Cleave, xp, Belkar's Hated Enemy and Poor tracking skills, Turn losses, Horde strength and monster str, etc.

prj
2010-03-05, 01:37 AM
My group cracks out a small whiteboard and keeps track of XP there. (We bracket "Double X's", no worries!) That way we don't have to keep up with ridiculous amounts of cards in 8-9 level dungeons

There can be a benefit to using the cards, though. If you manage to defeat your nemesis, or any particularly tough monster, you can hold on to the card to keep it from recirculating and causing you trouble later. (It's not a very useful option, though, since any monster that tough probably gives two X's, so it's worth turning it in anyway.)