The Dark One's Home Plain

[pendell]

Listening to Jirix in 704, I note the following

1) Endless plain
2) Eternal strife.
...

Is this Avallas in Acheron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons))? That's where Gruumsh lived in the Forbidden Realms series...

Some future. A masterpiece of spinning that the goblins look *forward* to this for eternity.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Felyndiira]

OotS's Lawful Good afterlife is homebrew. It's not unreasonable to believe that the Dark One's plane is also custom.

Regardless, endless warfare is not always a bad future. If you're Belkar, for example, a endless life of killing and fighting would have been the penultimate enjoyment; if you're a Sapphire Guard paladin, it's an honor to give up your afterlife for the sole cause of defending the gates. Given this, it's assumable that becoming a warrior in the service of their God is a form of reward for a Goblin that dedicated their lives to the Dark One, as appalling* as it might seem to us modern-day urbanites.

*Acute Rouge Angles of Satin, I hate firefox's spellchecker sometimes >.>

[Asta Kask]

Gruumsh is the God of Orcs. But Maglubiyet lives there, and he is indeed the God of Goblinoids. So, yeah, probably.

[Silverraptor]

I was under the impression that they were gathering strength to help prepare for invasion of the other realms.

[ThePhantasm]

Wouldn't it be interesting if Belkar ended up there and fought with all the goblin warriors?

[hamishspence]

Belkar's CE- but he might end up there as part of a CE invasion force.

Might be interesting if Miko ended up there- having to fight alongside the goblins against demonic invaders.

Acheron, while technically a Lower Plane, does not have the "mildly evil aligned" descriptor- only "mildly lawful aligned"

It could easily have a lot of LN bordering on LE creatures, as well as LE bordering on LN creatures.

[Felyndiira]

I highly doubt Miko will go anywhere near the plane. Even after her fall, she's neutral at worst and has explicitly been ushered with Soon Kim to join him in the Barnyard Zoo afterlife. Thus, it's assumable that she'll end up like the fighters that fought to defend Azure City - with a respectable afterlife alongside her former comrades even if she is no longer a paladin.

Nonetheless, we're not sure whether the Dark One is similar to Magnubiyet or what other creatures inhabit the realm, so it's entirely possible that it's a place where only goblins are admitted to become soldiers. (Dunno what happens to those that chose not to fight)

[Morty]

Perhaps the goblins' idea of an eternal reward is fighting a war they can actually win.

[hamishspence]

I highly doubt Miko will go anywhere near the plane. Even after her fall, she's neutral at worst and has explicitly been ushered with Soon Kim to join him in the Barnyard Zoo afterlife.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

Sooon's precise wording: "We are fading to the Celestial Realm. We will usher you to your destination as well"

(though he also says Windstriker will visit her "as much as he is able")

Its worth remembering that at least one of the Twelve Gods (Rat) is an ally of The Dark One, so its possible that worshippers of the Twelve Gods go to multiple afterlives.

If Rat resides in Acheron, and the celestial minions of the Twelve Gods (such as Windstriker) routinely cross the planes to visit all planes in which a member of the Twelve Gods reside, both conditions could be satisfied (going to an afterlife inhabited by at least one of the Twelve Gods, and visits from Windstriker) without her actually being admitted to Celestia.

Roy would not have gotten in if he had not gone after Elan. Should Miko, after she killed Shojo and tried to kill Hinjo?

[ObadiahtheSlim]

It seems the Gods have their own planes. They are seperate from the afterlife of most sentient beings. We saw the High Priest of the 12 Gods stuck in line to go up the same mountain Roy went up. This makes me think that Miko is stuck in some lawful (but not lawful good) afterlife.

Goblinoids however seem to go directly to the Dark One's plane. It could be that only devoted and choosen followers do this.

[Felyndiira]

Roy would not have gotten in if he had not gone after Elan. Should Miko, after she killed Shojo and tried to kill Hinjo?

Roy has always been a bit of a curiosity. "Abandoning a friend to an unknown fate" has been exhibited by a number of LG characters in the comics, in some situations made explicitly worse as "abandoning a friend to a likely death." Hinjo abandoned O-Chul to his likely demise, for one; he failed to return to check on his status when he departed with the Azure City ships. While you can argue that O-Chul knew the consequences, we can similarly say that Elan would have, as a good character, been willing to sacrifice himself for another.

It should also be noted that Miko has led a life of service to a good cause. As a paladin, she has - up until her fall - enacted the Sapphire Guard's mission without question, and has accumulated a portfolio (if you will) of lawful good actions. Roy, on the other hand, is an adventurer that breaks rules out of necessity and possesses a generally shaky alignment throughout his life, with his good stemming only from his willingness to fight Xykon. Even thus, the deva tells him exactly two strips after the TN comment: "I don't think there's any doubt that you're a good man...you regularly battle with the forces of Evil without expecting compensation" - something that Miko has done to an even greater extent than Roy. The evil blip afterwards, then, requires us to evaluate whether her only evil act - killing Shojo - is so horrible that it instantly flips her down into the evil side of the axis.

Thus, unless if killing an innocent is so evil that it bumps you irrevocably from good to evil, we can judge Miko to be, at worst, Lawful Neutral. This means that she should go to an afterlife appropriate for Lawful Neutral people, not fight alongside the neutral evil goblins in an ironic twist of fate. The fact that she's a worshipper of the twelve gods AND has fulfilled her duty at the very end (whatever you may think of fallen Miko, sacrificing herself to destroy the gate is a very good action, even if it's a bit hasty. Good does not imply absolute insight) means that unless if the Chinese zodiac are complete scoundrels that love to see their followers suffer, she should get a deserving afterlife where most LN Azurite citizens reside.

The Dark One's afterlife is evil (not to mention goblins only). Thus, Miko shouldn't be subjected to it.

[hamishspence]

If the Dark One's afterlife is Acheron, it is neither evil (mildly Lawful aligned only) nor goblins-only.

Though a subarea of it, specifically designated as The Dark One's home, may be.

Acheron is a perfectly appropriate afterlife for Lawful Neutral beings in the D&D canon.

Interesting note- there are 17 Outer Planes- and of those 17, 12 (including Acheron and Pandemonium) are not evil aligned by the rules (not even mildly). Though both have evil and nonevil inhabitants.

And there are 12 gods in the Southern Pantheon. Hmm.

Maybe each of the 12 gods lives on a different, nonevil, Outer Plane?

It would be interesting if the reason Rat provided info to The Dark One in SoD, was that they have a lot in common- and both reside on the same plane.

[Asta Kask]

Roy has always been a bit of a curiosity. "Abandoning a friend to an unknown fate" has been exhibited by a number of LG characters in the comics, in some situations made explicitly worse as "abandoning a friend to a likely death." Hinjo abandoned O-Chul to his likely demise, for one; he failed to return to check on his status when he departed with the Azure City ships. While you can argue that O-Chul knew the consequences, we can similarly say that Elan would have, as a good character, been willing to sacrifice himself for another.

There's a difference. Hinjo accepted this as a loss, Roy saw it as an opportunity to be rid of Elan.

[hamishspence]

Yes- Roy makes an excuse "Walking into the bandit game is suicide"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html

but later figures he's "a disgrace to his alignment"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html

and goes back.

Miko never caught on to the fact that what she was doing was wrong- as Soon points out in strip 464:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

thus- she may get a bit less credit. The deva specifically states that Roy proved he had learned his lesson, later, by saving Elan again.


OotS's Lawful Good afterlife is homebrew. It's not unreasonable to believe that the Dark One's plane is also custom.

As to Celestia being homebrew, this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

seems to hint at the OoTS Outer planes being very similar to The Great Wheel- the names all fit Great Wheel outer planes in some way.

[Felyndiira]

As to Celestia being homebrew, this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

seems to hint at the OoTS Outer planes being very similar to The Great Wheel- the names all fit Great Wheel outer planes in some way.

Point - I definitely need a copy of Manual of the Planes one of these days =<.

For Miko, though, I understand that she never caught on to her mistake and will never be redeemed as a paladin. My question, though, was whether her crime is heinous enough to force her into the worse type of afterlife possible; for the death of Shojo to eclipse every good act she performed in the service of the Azure Guard would be a bit stretching it, at most.

I admit that I don't know enough about Acheron, so I concede that it's possible for Miko to be on the same plane. *goes and grabs MotP at the local bookstore*

[Asta Kask]

Not Acheron. She'd probably end up in the Twin Paradises. I can't imagine she fell all the way to evil in one stroke (heh).

[hamishspence]

The worst afterlife you can be in, without actually being Lawful Evil. Though some Lawful Evil types get in there as well.

Fiendish Codex 2 has a list of evil acts- and a maximum total (of unatoned-for acts), at which Lawful aligned characters go to the Nine Hells regardless of how much good they did in life, unless they are genuinely repentant.

1 murder does not exceed this total, but two would.

(Even if repentant, they get reincarnated as a Hellbred instead of passing on. A hellbred goes to the Nine Hells after death unless it achieves some great good in life).

So, (by Fiendish Codex 2 rules) Miko's one murder would not drop her into the Nine Hells.

Acheron is "how low can you go" without actually going all the way to evil.
Acheron (LN), and Pandemonium (CN).

[SoC175]

If the Dark One's afterlife is Acheron, it is neither evil (mildly Lawful aligned only) nor goblins-only.

Though a subarea of it, specifically designated as The Dark One's home, may be.

Acheron is a perfectly appropriate afterlife for Lawful Neutral beings in the D&D canon.

Interesting note- there are 17 Outer Planes- and of those 17, 12 (including Acheron and Pandemonium) are not evil aligned by the rules (not even mildly). Though both have evil and nonevil inhabitants.

And there are 12 gods in the Southern Pantheon. Hmm.

Maybe each of the 12 gods lives on a different, nonevil, Outer Plane?

It would be interesting if the reason Rat provided info to The Dark One in SoD, was that they have a lot in common- and both reside on the same plane. Well, we know that Rat is evil

[hamishspence]

technically all we know is that Rat is one of The Dark One's "few allies"

When it said "several of the elder evil gods broke ranks to defend him" Tiamat and Loki are there.

But when The Dark One asks his "few allies" about The Snarl, it's Tiamat and Rat that we see.

Rat is probably evil or has evil tendencies, but I'm not sure if Rat having evil alignment's been proven in SoD.

[TriForce]

Roy has always been a bit of a curiosity. "Abandoning a friend to an unknown fate" has been exhibited by a number of LG characters in the comics, in some situations made explicitly worse as "abandoning a friend to a likely death." Hinjo abandoned O-Chul to his likely demise, for one; he failed to return to check on his status when he departed with the Azure City ships. While you can argue that O-Chul knew the consequences, we can similarly say that Elan would have, as a good character, been willing to sacrifice himself for another.


dont forget that hinjo assumed o-chul to be dead. as he stated himself, he would not have destroyed the gate unless he had no other choice (only o-chul knows it was actually miko who did that) and nobody expected him to survive that. only belkar and haley knew he live, and they were not in a position to tell him.

[JonestheSpy]

Old timey trivia: Way back in AD&D, it was decided that he afterlife of goblinoids and orcs was eternal battle - with each other. It makes sense in that the elves, dwarves, etc were mostly good and the vast majority of them would probably not regard eternal senseless battle as a rewarding afterlife, so the bad guys (definitely all bad back then, no "usually" stuff) just get to fight each other.

I can't remember which plane it was - not the Hells, but one of its next-door neighbors.

It looks like Rich based his goblin afterlife on that. It'd be interesting to see some time just who the goblins are fighting.

[hamishspence]

That was Acheron- next door neighbour to The Nine Hells.

It still is like that in 3.5.

While not Evil Aligned, its inhabitants are mostly Lawful Neutral with evil tendencies, or Lawful Evil.

Except orcs- which seem a little out of place, given that their alignment tends toward CE.