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Toliudar
2010-02-22, 11:29 AM
A simple question: How often have you had the Mettle ability (take no damage instead of partial damage from a successful fort save) come into play in your games? I like the idea of it, but the two times I've had a character with the ability, it's never once been used.

Eloel
2010-02-22, 11:32 AM
A simple question: How often have you had the Mettle ability (take no damage effect instead of partial damage effect from a successful fort or will save) come into play in your games? I like the idea of it, but the two times I've had a character with the ability, it's never once been used.

Often enough, with the fear stuff.

Person_Man
2010-02-22, 01:15 PM
Not nearly as much as Evasion. But as ozgun92 mentions, it does effect a variety of Fear effects, Poison (to ignore the secondary effect), and a small number of spells. The real trick is that you need to buy a Tabard of Valor (Comp Champion) which gives you Improved Mettle (like Improved Evasion, but for Fort and Will Saves) when you are below 50% hit points. When combined with a Ring of Evasion, high Saves, you can be highly resilient against most effects. Throw in Iron Heart Surge, and you're set.

Toliudar
2010-02-22, 03:25 PM
Good idea, Person_Man. And I hadn't thought of the minute-later effect of the poison - thanks.

mregecko
2010-02-22, 03:48 PM
Actually, a lot. I played a Hexblade, the text on which doesn't actually limit the effect of Mettle to spells, or to save for less damage. I don't have the exact wording, but it says something along the line of "spells or effects that allow a lesser effect on a successful save instead have no effect on a successful save".

I (and every DM I have ever played with) am of the opinion that Mettle therefore applies to things like the Orb of X line (save and no damage), Poisons (make the first save, no need for secondary damage save), Holy Word / Blasphemy (and other similar spells, when not cast on your home plane), a bunch of Fear effects (Save = shaken, not save = panicked).

This is in addition to the Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Cloudkill, etc... That everyone knows and loves.

Also, interesting to note, Shadow-Reality spells can be negated by a successful save and Mettle. It can put a kibosh when fighting a Shadowcraft Mage.

Food for thought.

-- MrE

mostlyharmful
2010-02-22, 04:37 PM
Also, interesting to note, Shadow-Reality spells can be negated by a successful save and Mettle. It can put a kibosh when fighting a Shadowcraft Mage.

Food for thought.

-- MrE

Actually, after a few levels you can get to the stage where you WANT to fluff the save since worse things happen when you make it.

Glimbur
2010-02-22, 04:57 PM
Actually, after a few levels you can get to the stage where you WANT to fluff the save since worse things happen when you make it.

With Mettle when you make the save you take no effect.

Doc Roc
2010-02-22, 05:02 PM
Mettle is extremely prized in the test of spite.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-22, 05:05 PM
With Mettle when you make the save you take no effect.

the problem being that if the effect is worse if you make the save than if you fail it the wording of mettle gets a little squirrelly.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-22, 05:35 PM
the problem being that if the effect is worse if you make the save than if you fail it the wording of mettle gets a little squirrelly.

No, it doesn't. The wording of Mettle is completely clear and unambiguous. If you make your Will save vs the Shadowcraft Gnome's spell, you take no effect at all. Even if that effect would be greater than if you had failed your save.

You make your save, you take nothing. It's that simple. Even if it hits you harder by making your save, it still is completely negated.

mregecko
2010-02-23, 12:16 AM
No, it doesn't. The wording of Mettle is completely clear and unambiguous. If you make your Will save vs the Shadowcraft Gnome's spell, you take no effect at all. Even if that effect would be greater than if you had failed your save.

You make your save, you take nothing. It's that simple. Even if it hits you harder by making your save, it still is completely negated.

Wording, excerpted from Complete Warrior (Hexblade Mettle, first version printed, to my knowledge)


If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect.

Emphasis mine... That's pretty darn specific, and if you make a save vs. a Shadowcraft Mage's high level spell, you do NOT take a lesser effect. In fact, you take a greater effect.

It's counter-intuitive and I agree, not Rules as Intended... But Rules as Written, it's pretty precise.

-- MrE

NEO|Phyte
2010-02-23, 12:48 AM
Emphasis mine... That's pretty darn specific, and if you make a save vs. a Shadowcraft Mage's high level spell, you do NOT take a lesser effect. In fact, you take a greater effect.

It's counter-intuitive and I agree, not Rules as Intended... But Rules as Written, it's pretty precise.

-- MrE
Taking Fireball for an example, is (reflex) half of 110% (or however much a shadowcraft mage can spit out) more or less than all of 100%?

Eloel
2010-02-23, 02:14 AM
Mettle + Evasion + Pride Domain + High Saves + High AC + Iron Heart Surge + Wings of Cover
Possible in 20 levels. Almost invulnerable.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 02:30 AM
If you allow it to negate things which are "X no save and Y Fort negates", then it's pretty awesome. Otherwise, not as much. Fort- and Will- targeting effects are more likely to not need it (since it's often "Fort negates").