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Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 01:55 PM
What's wrong here?

Base Weapon - Mordenkrad. [W] = 2d6 (brutal 1)

Howling Strike deals 1[W] + 1d6, and can be used as a melee basic when you charge

Horned Helm adds 1d6 to charge damage

Magic on weapon: Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad - Charge attacks deal an additional [W] of damage.

So charging results in 2[W] + 2d6 = 4d6 (brutal1) + 2d6. At-will.

Toss in a Badge of the Berserker to avoid AOs while charging and Boots of Adept Charging to shift away post-charge to start setting up for next turn's charge.

Everythings at-will and mostly passive.

Where's the hole in this? There must be something wrong here.

Krrth
2010-02-22, 02:18 PM
What's wrong here?

Weapon - Mordenkrad. [W] = 2d6 (brutal 1)

Howling Strike deals 1[W] + 1d6, and can be used as a melee basic when you charge

Horned Helm adds 1d6 to charge damage

Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad - Charge attacks deal an additional [W] of damage.

So charging results in 2[W] + 2d6 = 4d6 (brutal1) + 2d6. At-will.

Toss in a Badge of the Berserker to avoid AOs while charging and Boots of Adept Charging to shift away post-charge to start setting up for next turn's charge.

Everythings at-will and mostly passive.

Where's the hole in this? There must be something wrong here.

That...doesn't look right. The 1[W] doesn't stack with the weapon damage, it merely refers back to the weapon.

So....you should be looking at 1[w]+2d6. ALthough I do have to ask, what is a mordenkrad, and why are you using two at once?

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 02:21 PM
That...doesn't look right. The 1[W] doesn't stack with the weapon damage, it merely refers back to the weapon.

So....you should be looking at 1[w]+2d6. ALthough I do have to ask, what is a mordenkrad, and why are you using two at once?

Not using 2 at once. Using one. It's the base weapon. Avalanche Hammer is the magic on it. Avalanche Hammer adds a [W] to the damage of charge attacks with the weapon it's enchanted on, and it can be enchanted on any weapon in the "Hammer" group. So an Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad is a Mordenkrad with the Avalanche Hammer enchantment on it. Edited original post to clarify this.

A Mordenkrad is a Superior 2H melee hammer. It's described in the Adventurer's Vault as a big spiked hammer. There are no pictures of it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-22, 02:24 PM
The biggest thing here is it's restricted to when you Charge. Unless you know the party's controller can Push or Slide the enemy (or Pull/Slide you) consistently, this is going to be fairly difficult to use every round.

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 02:31 PM
The biggest thing here is it's restricted to when you Charge. Unless you know the party's controller can Push or Slide the enemy (or Pull/Slide you) consistently, this is going to be fairly difficult to use every round.

The party I'm bringing this character into has no controller. The fact that I need to charge is important here, however:

A - I can ping-pong between 2 enemies thanks to Badge of the Berserker - You take no AOs while charging.

B - If there are no other enemies far enough, odds are that my mostly-melee allies are close enough to keep him from moving too much. Boots of Adept Charging - I shift one square after charge attacks. On my next turn, I simply shift and charge.

C - If I'm in a really bad situation, taking the AO to add my charge bonuses to my attack is usually going to be worth it.

Immobilization does become very crippling thing though... And it makes domination from an enemy VERY powerful, since they can have me charge with Howling Strike and all my bonuses... I think I'm starting to see how it's balanced.

Krrth
2010-02-22, 02:33 PM
Not using 2 at once. Using one. It's the base weapon. Avalanche Hammer is the magic on it. Avalanche Hammer adds a [W] to the damage of charge attacks with the weapon it's enchanted on, and it can be enchanted on any weapon in the "Hammer" group. So an Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad is a Mordenkrad with the Avalanche Hammer enchantment on it. Edited original post to clarify this.

A Mordenkrad is a Superior 2H melee hammer. It's described in the Adventurer's Vault as a big spiked hammer. There are no pictures of it.

Ah, Right. You would indeed do 4d6+2d6+strength mod every time you charged. Averaging 18+str mod per hit. Nice, but by no means broken. My level 4 swordmage is reliably doing 12 per hit without charging. So figure you're doing twice the damage, at the cost of both your move action and your standard action.

Sinfire is right in that having to use the charge action every time is going to limit the effectiveness by quite a bit.

erikun
2010-02-22, 02:40 PM
I assume that Howling Strike is an at-will?

Beyond that, there is the problem with trying to charge the same target repeatedly. Charging multiple targets also has the problem of spreading around the damage, so that you're taking twice as long to kill something. It looks like you have a few tricks planned, but some very simple tactics - shifting towards you on their turn, knocking you prone - will cut your charging days short. Also, the fact that most enemies will charge up to you, not giving you the room to charge between them.

Your damage is cut in half when you don't charge.

Also note that the Sorcerer gets a 6d6 at level 1, albeit not at-will.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-22, 02:42 PM
The party I'm bringing this character into has no controller. The fact that I need to charge is important here, however:

A - I can ping-pong between 2 enemies thanks to Badge of the Berserker - You take no AOs while charging.

Except when you Charge you need to Charge the closest opponent. Since the closest opponent is all ready adjacent, you can't Charge.


B - If there are no other enemies far enough, odds are that my mostly-melee allies are close enough to keep him from moving too much. Boots of Adept Charging - I shift one square after charge attacks. On my next turn, I simply shift and charge.

I'd actually Multiclass for an Encounter power that allows you to Shift up to two squares or more. I know Ranger has a few, and I know Wizards have Expeditious Retreat.

Dragonmuncher
2010-02-22, 02:43 PM
The Base Weapon is Mordenkrad, with a [W] of 2d6

so, W=2d6

Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad does 2W on a charge- making the base charge damage 4d6

Howling Strike is an attack that does W+ 1d6 (instead of the normal W), and Horned Helm adds another 1d6

So it's 4d6+1d6+1d6=6d6

Sounds right to me.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-22, 02:44 PM
I'd actually Multiclass for an Encounter power that allows you to Shift up to two squares or more. I know Ranger has a few, and I know Wizards have Expeditious Retreat.

Wouldn't Swift Panther Rage also do this quite easily?

Krrth
2010-02-22, 02:45 PM
Wouldn't Swift Panther Rage also do this quite easily?

So would being a water, acid, or void genasi.

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 02:47 PM
I assume that Howling Strike is an at-will?

Beyond that, there is the problem with trying to charge the same target repeatedly. Charging multiple targets also has the problem of spreading around the damage, so that you're taking twice as long to kill something. It looks like you have a few tricks planned, but some very simple tactics - shifting towards you on their turn, knocking you prone - will cut your charging days short. Also, the fact that most enemies will charge up to you, not giving you the room to charge between them.

Your damage is cut in half when you don't charge.

Also note that the Sorcerer gets a 6d6 at level 1, albeit not at-will.

Yes, Howling Strike is an at-will. When I can't charge though, I've got my encounter powers.

Here's the build, from the builder:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Shamash, level 8
Dragonborn, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might: Rageblood Vigor
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire
Background: Wandering Duelist (Wandering Duelist Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 11.


AC: 23 Fort: 24 Reflex: 17 Will: 17
HP: 73 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +15, Endurance +11, Athletics +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +3, Heal +3, History +6, Insight +3, Nature +3, Perception +3, Religion +4, Stealth +3, Streetwise +5, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Powerful Charge
Level 2: Reckless Charge
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 6: Hide Armor Expertise
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)

POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian at-will 1: Howl of Fury
Barbarian encounter 1: Avalanche Strike
Barbarian daily 1: Thunder Hooves Rage
Barbarian utility 2: Shrug It Off
Barbarian encounter 3: Blood Strike
Barbarian daily 5: Tiger's Claw Rage
Barbarian utility 6: Run Rampant
Barbarian encounter 7: Looming Threat

ITEMS
Badge of the Berserker +2, Bestial Hide Armor +2, Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad +2, Horned Helm (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (3), Throwing hammer (3), Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Crowbar
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Mando Knight
2010-02-22, 02:50 PM
Ah, Right. You would indeed do 4d6+2d6+strength mod every time you charged. Averaging 18+str mod per hit.

It's actually 4d6 (brutal 1) + 2d6 +Static. That's a damage flux of 10-36 plus a constant, with an average of 23+K', where K' is the constant damage modifier with Strength added (Strength modifier plus Weapon Focus plus magic plus whatever).

By contrast, a Ranger typically deals 2d10+1d6+2K or 2d10+1d8+2K, where K is the constant damage modifier without Strength.

Assuming both are at level 2, have Strength of 18 (+4 modifier), a +1 weapon, and Weapon Focus (+1), this gives damage fluxes of:
Barbarian: 16-42, average 29
Ranger: 9-30, average 18.5

However, at level 30, if both have +6 weapons, 28 Strength (+9), Weapon Focus (+3), and epic Iron Armbands of Power (+6), this becomes
Barbarian: 6d6 brutal 1 +2d6 +K', or (12-36)+(2-12)+24 = 38-72, average 55
Ranger: 4d10+3d8+2K, or (4-40)+(3-24)+30 = 37-94, average 65.5

So the Barbarian using this strategy remains roughly on par with the Ranger even through the epic tier.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-22, 02:51 PM
Wouldn't Swift Panther Rage also do this quite easily?

That would work. But the more he gets, the better (unless one is an At Will for some unknown reason). Technically, the Goblin's racial power would work (but the Mordenkrad is too big for a Goblin).

Kylarra
2010-02-22, 02:51 PM
Except when you Charge you need to Charge the closest opponent. Since the closest opponent is all ready adjacent, you can't Charge.What? No you don't. You have to move to the closest square adjacent to your target, but there's no requirement that you have to target the closest enemy.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-22, 02:52 PM
What? No you don't. You have to move to the closest square adjacent to your target, but there's no requirement that you have to target the closest enemy.

Really? I thought that was one of the few rules they kept from 3.5. I know Marking usually requires the targets to be the closest (at least the Ranger's does).

Yakk
2010-02-22, 02:53 PM
4d6 brutal 1 = 16 average damage.
2d6 = 7 average damage
Str of +4 = 4 average damage
+1 magic weapon = 1 average damage

28 average damage, at-will, average.

Feats:
Level 4 magic item (hammer)
Badge of the Berserker (level 2)
Horned Helm (level 6)

So you have to be about level 5 to pull this off, and your best item is your horned helm.

Critical: 46.5 average (+18.5).

To hit: +4 (str)+1(weapon)+2(prof)+1 (expertise)+1 (charge)+2(level)
= +12 to hit.

Suppose you are charging a level 6 non-soldier with 20 AC. You hit on an 8+ (65% of the time) and crit on a 20. You do .65*28+.05*18.5 = 19.13 DPR, but you have to generally split it between two targets. +0.65 if you throw in weapon focus for 19.78 total. Toss in the free basic attack you get on a crit for another +0.45 damage per round and the total is 20.23 damage per round on average.

As a comparison, a level 5 brutal rogue with 20 dex and 16 str and a +2 dagger (instead of your helm), and nimble blade and weapon focus.

1d4+2d8+5 (dex)+3 (str)+2 (dagger)+1 (focus)
22.5 damage on a hit average, 38 on a crit.
To hit is +2 (level)+5(dex)+3 (prof)+1(talent)+2(ench)+1(expertise)+2 (CA)+1(nimble)=+17 to hit.

This rogue hits on a 3+, or 90% of the time, for a DPR of 21.0.

In short, no, this isn't unreasonable. A completely vanilla rogue can match that DPR using at-will spam.

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 03:00 PM
This is a level 8 build. The full result of the charge attack is:

No AOs on the way there

+16 attack, 4d6(brutal 1) + 2d6 + 10 damage

Can shift 1 square after

May choose to add +1 to attack roll, taking -2 penalty to AC until the start of my next turn.

That's 20 damage minimum, 46 maximum at level 8.

The rest of the party is a Paladin, Avenger, Warden & Ranger. The Avenger may choose to switch to a Cleric. The Ranger switches back & forth between melee & ranged a lot.

Yakk
2010-02-22, 03:01 PM
Meh, same difference.

It isn't bad, but it isn't ridiculously broken.

Enjoy!

Hzurr
2010-02-22, 03:14 PM
If you have the boots that let you shift at the end of a charge, the build becomes very easy (I know this, because the Barbarian in my party does it all the time).

1st round: Charge attack. After the attack, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots
2nd round: Shift back a square as a move action, and you're now far enough back to charge. At the end of the charge, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots.
<repeat>

The only way for the Monster to combat this is if it keeps on advancing on the barbarian (and if you have a defender to keep it marked, this becomes difficult).

Barbarians are deadly.

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 03:19 PM
If you have the boots that let you shift at the end of a charge, the build becomes very easy (I know this, because the Barbarian in my party does it all the time).

1st round: Charge attack. After the attack, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots
2nd round: Shift back a square as a move action, and you're now far enough back to charge. At the end of the charge, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots.
<repeat>

The only way for the Monster to combat this is if it keeps on advancing on the barbarian (and if you have a defender to keep it marked, this becomes difficult).

Barbarians are deadly.

I have those boots and 2 defenders in the party.

Artanis
2010-02-22, 03:32 PM
One thing I notice is that doing this also requires you to dedicate four item slots to it, including two of the big three. That's a pretty hefty opportunity cost to make a one-trick pony that isn't necessarily all that great anyways.

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 03:44 PM
One thing I notice is that doing this also requires you to dedicate four item slots to it, including two of the big three. That's a pretty hefty opportunity cost to make a one-trick pony that isn't necessarily all that great anyways.

The magic item I have but haven't mentioned is Bestial Hide Armor. This one's got an item daily that gives me a free melee basic on the target of my charge after my charge, so it's all of the big 3.

It mostly came about from wanting passive bonuses that help me in some way, as I don't feel like dealing with managing a bunch of item dailies. A simple character with simple options... I have exactly 1 item daily, so there's no management of them by milestone. But yes, there are 8 eggs in this basket, and another 6 eggs that help this basket but are also useful elsewhere. None of my other eggs fit in the basket.

Corvus
2010-02-22, 04:02 PM
Not sure if Avalanche Hammer works with this. Its property reads when you charge and hit a melee basic attack you do 1W extra damage.

Howling Strike is an At Will, not an MBA, but it can be used in place of an MBA on a charge.

The one you want is Thundergod, which does +2d6 on a charge and uses D12 for crits when charging.

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 04:22 PM
Not sure if Avalanche Hammer works with this. Its property reads when you charge and hit a melee basic attack you do 1W extra damage.

Howling Strike is an At Will, not an MBA, but it can be used in place of an MBA on a charge.

The one you want is Thundergod, which does +2d6 on a charge and uses D12 for crits when charging.

Thundergod doesn't exist until +3. This character is starting at level 8. It's easy to extrapolate to +2, but the DM would have to be willing. (Unlikely here.)

I did send the DM my build, and he didn't say anything was wrong with it. I had added an extra card detailing the bonuses of my charge attacks. It's unlikely he looked into it much though.

Also, Thundergod Weapon +3 & +4 add 1d6 to a charge. Not 2d6. It's +5 & +6 that add 2d6.

oxybe
2010-02-22, 04:34 PM
am i the only one who's imagining a kobold barbarian using a Craghammer to racial shift as minor>shift as move>charge all the time

it's not the 21 damage of a 6d6r, but it is 2d10+2d6 for an average of 18 and can be done virtually every turn.

Yakk
2010-02-22, 04:37 PM
Not sure if Avalanche Hammer works with this. Its property reads when you charge and hit a melee basic attack you do 1W extra damage.

Howling Strike is an At Will, not an MBA, but it can be used in place of an MBA on a charge.That is a good point. Oh well, that costs the trick 1d6 damage (only 4d6B1+1d6 damage) for now.

On the plus side, that frees up an at-will.

sofawall
2010-02-22, 04:39 PM
Really? I thought that was one of the few rules they kept from 3.5. I know Marking usually requires the targets to be the closest (at least the Ranger's does).

Kept from 3.5? What? The rule has never existed.

Godskook
2010-02-22, 04:41 PM
Really? I thought that was one of the few rules they kept from 3.5. I know Marking usually requires the targets to be the closest (at least the Ranger's does).

I don't see that in the 3.5 rules either... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)

Thajocoth
2010-02-22, 04:41 PM
That is a good point. Oh well, that costs the trick 1d6 damage (only 4d6B1+1d6 damage) for now.

On the plus side, that frees up an at-will.

If the DM decides to rule things that way, that's what I'll do, using Howling Strike only when I'm raging and need the 2 extra speed for the charge... But I think even if he does read the exact descriptions word for word, he'll agree that the intent is to add to charge damage in general and allow it anyway. Intent > written at this table.

oxybe
2010-02-22, 04:54 PM
Edit: wrong post... stupid firefox. :smallredface:

Edit 2, electric boogaloo: kord i need more sleep. ugh. it was the right tab.

i just flipped my rules compendium to p.27

it says that "you must be able to reach the closest space from which you can attack the designate opponent", which effectively means the nearest unoccupied square in a strait line you have line of sight to with unblocked movement. the text doesn't state you have to stop at the nearest, you just have to reach it, so technically our charger, X could move past 0 and attack on his charge

Pre-charge
X-
--
--
--
--
-0
--

Charge
--
--
--
--
--
-0
X-

the conflicting issue is that the picture states that "When charging, Tordek must move to the nearest square from which he can attack the orc"

Yakk
2010-02-22, 06:15 PM
I dunno. It might not be intended to add a [W] to a 7[W] can-be-used-on-a-charge attack.

Or, for example, knockdown strike (fighter at-will that does 0[W] damage) might wouldn't gain [W] damage under the strict interpretation.

The question I'd end up asking, as a DM, is how your character's damage output compares to the other strikers. If they are as much, or more optimised, I'd let it go: it won't break the game -- if not, I'd rule with the rules as written.

Greenish
2010-02-22, 06:36 PM
Pre-charge
X-
--
--
--
--
-0
--

Charge
--
--
--
--
--
-0
X-

the conflicting issue is that the picture states that "When charging, Tordek must move to the nearest square from which he can attack the orc""The orc" being the target of the charge. It doesn't say "nearest square from which he can attack an enemy".

magicsandman
2010-04-03, 09:08 AM
A ranger could also take advantage of the Avalanche hammer with throw and stab.
Dwarven weapon training, avalanche hammer, a magic hand axe or throwing hammer. At will damage would be 1d6+3 + HQ 1d6 (or 1d8) + 2d10 B2 +3 + Str. Average damage 23 (or 24) + STR. A horned helm would add 1d6 to this. This of course would have some of the same problems as the barbarian attack. The magic heavy throwing weapon could also do something cool like Challenge seeking + 1d6 damage against unwounded enemies or whatever would help deal more damage.

tcrudisi
2010-04-03, 09:34 AM
1) Use a Vanguard Weapon (+1d8 on a charge)
2) Powerful Charge feat
3) Reckless Charge
4) Iron Armbands of Power (as always)

Also consider getting a mount. There are some good feats to really amp up charge damage when you are mounted... and some mounts that increase charge damage too.

Also, are you playing a Warforged? They have the best paragon path for charging characters, although there are some other really good PP's and races, I think Warforged are slightly the best.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-03, 10:46 AM
The biggest thing here is it's restricted to when you Charge. Unless you know the party's controller can Push or Slide the enemy (or Pull/Slide you) consistently, this is going to be fairly difficult to use every round.

It's actually remarkably easy to consistently charge, moreso if you grab a few choice feats. Remember that 4e charges are only a standard action, meaning if need be, you can move action back a bit then charge back in. You also don't have to follow a straight line, though you do need to end movement in the closest adjacent square unless you have the right feat.

If you follow the 4e character sheet link in my sig, you'll find a 30th-level thought experiment on charging. Outside of the immobilized/restrained conditions, there are three terrain/placement situations where he cannot charge an enemy without having to move first.
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2930/chargel.jpg
Red is the bad guy, blue is me, black is more or less anything that I can't end movement in.

magicsandman
2010-04-03, 02:19 PM
Yeah Vanguard weapon for the Barbarian. Based on a similar thread in the wizards forum the Barbarian can't use his bonus damage power with an Avalanche hammer.

lonebrendan
2010-08-26, 11:48 AM
Here are some ways I have found for charging an enemy you start your turn adjacent to. (They are all repeatable every turn without encounter or daily powers)

Long Step (Epic) - shift 1 extra square. Although 21 levels is a long time to wait.

Risky Shift- Shift 2 squares and grant combat advantage. Not bad. Available early as a rogue or multiclassed rogue, but a little dangerous to be doing all the time.

Monk At-Will, Five Storms -Shift 2 as a move action. Available to Monks, monk hybrids or paragon multiclassing as a Monk. Getting any classí at-will is difficult. Hybrids make a lot of tradeoffs and the monk doesnít mesh very well with many other classes. Paragon multiclassing is extremely feat expensive, and you give up other paragon classes.

Great Cat Armor- adds 1 to your shift. Level 19 magic armor, and thus is super expensive at 105,000g.

Boots of Adept Charging- shift 1 after a charge. Although cheap they are useless when the enemy just steps right up to you on their turn. Same thing with Unstoppable Charge (epic).

Some of the coolest charging is the most recent Iíve found. They all involve multiclassing into Warlock taking the Utility Power Swap feat for Ethereal Sidestep (At-Will utility) at level 10.

Ethereal Sidestep allows you to teleport 1 square. Lame by itself, but adding items or feats to increase this distance makes for an awesome way to charge. Vanishing from in front of your enemy only to rematerialize 15 feet away barreling toward their flank reminds me of Flash Step from the anime Bleach, or old school DBZ fights.

Mark of Passage- extends the distance teleported with a power by 1, but is only available in Eberron.

Eladrin Ring of Passage- does the same thing as mark of passage and is a level 14 magic item.

Eladrin Boots Ėextend your teleport by 2. Level 16 item. Awesome in this combo.

Avandra's Boon of Escape- shift 2 when you start your turn adjacent to two enemies. Good, but conditional and can be difficult to acquire a boon in your campaign.

Iím sure I havenít found all the ways. Anyone know of some other chargespam combos?

Vaynor
2010-08-26, 12:05 PM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.