[PrC] Split Rose Disciple

[Damon_Caskey]

The next one of my long standing concepts to be retyped and "wikied":

Split Rose Disciple (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Split_Rose_Disciple)

The class is based on an imaginary fighting disciple called "Split Rose" created by Brion Foluke in Flipside comics. The way it is presented within the Flipside world can border on the absurd sometimes, but I still found it interesting and wanted to see how it might fare in the d20 system.

PEACH and enjoy.
DC

[Xzoltar]

Currently I got :


You don't have permission to access /arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

So not sure if its the proxy here, but anyway this give you a bump, will check back home.

[Damon_Caskey]

Let me know if you still can't get to it at home. I just checked the link from here and from a remote terminal about 60 miles away; both worked fine for me.

I do have some ISP's blocked at the server level for various reasons. It's possible you got caught in that. If you still can't get in, send me your external IP and I'll make sure you aren't in the blocked ranges.

DC

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You are made of win for trying this, however a few things:

1) Must be making a Total Defense options to use any of these. abilities. Split Rose is a masterful defensive style, but has no offensive maneuvers whatsoever.

2) I'd have written this style up more as a Tactical Feat than a PrC. It is, after all, just a children's style, implying that you may pick up multiple styles. This sounds more like Tactical Feats, or perhaps Feat Chains, to me. Which would actually make Fighter worth bothering with.

Let's see... probably something like this:

Split Rose Style [Tactical]
Prerequsites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise

This style is one which is of profound defensive nature, though lacking in offensive ability. All of these options may only be taken if you are wielding two weapons of equal size, and are taking a Total Defense action

1) While making a Total Defense action, your opponent provokes an Attack of Opportunity whenever they make a melee attack against you

2) While making a Total Defense action, you add your Int score to the Shield Bonus granted by the Two-Weapon Defense feat chain.

3) A number of times per Int Mod per round, you may attempt an offensive parry. Make an attack roll vs your opponent's attack roll. If you succeed, your attacker misses.

4) You still threaten your area of reach and can make Attack of Opportunity while taking a Total Defense action

[DracoDei]

There is a feat I hear tell of... Roblar's Gambit... this blows it out of the water I think (and maybe it should, given the number of pre-requisites).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There is a feat I hear tell of... Roblar's Gambit... this blows it out of the water I think (and maybe it should, given the number of pre-requisites).

Yea, was going for something feat-intensive enough that it discourages classes other than Fighter from really taking much of an interest in it. Plus, since you have to be Total Defense to use it, which Roblar's doesn't.

[Boci]

You cannot take AoO when using the total defense action, there was a feat in PHII I think that allowed it, bot only at a -4 penalty.

[DracoDei]

Ok, so he needs to include a clause to the effect that you CAN AoO while doing it.

[Boci]

Ok, so he needs to include a clause to the effect that you CAN AoO while doing it.

Or include a feat in the preqs that allows you to do so. Depends on just how feat intensive he wants it to be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or include a feat in the preqs that allows you to do so. Depends on just how feat intensive he wants it to be.

Fix'd. I originally read the limitation to being unable to provoke AoO from movement, but upon closer reading, it shuts down all AoO's.

[Xzoltar]

Alright, tested from home, link work fine, but still block by proxy at school.

Anyway, I have take a look I thought it was a new ToB Discipline, then I reread Disciple. Oh well, nevermind, I still have take a look

Soft Petals : I think its too much to have both intelligence and half-clas level as Shield bonus. Take one of them but not both, I know Fighter are not supposed to have that much Int, but still easy enough to boost this shield bonus too far.

Sharp Thorns : Nice to be able to counter attack but then I realised most power dont involved fighting on the defensive at all, so your giving normal attack plus lot of possible opportunity attacks you even give a really high bonus on thoses attacks.

Splitting Stalks ; Wow thats help a lot with Battlefield control.

Too tired to peach the rest, but after reading this I think that it could work as a Prestige Class, but where I think it will really Shine is as a Tactical Feat or if you have more idea to create a new discipline ToB style based on defensive style (you can take a look at Way of the Dragon from Rokugan that use two-weapon fighting and defense as their style)

And please, I beg you change the BaB o something stronger than half per level...

[DracoDei]

Low BAB and lots of bonuses to AoO's could actually be about right for a defensive focused class. Splitting Stalks emulates a feat from ToB by the by...

[Damon_Caskey]

Splitting Stalks emulates a feat from ToB by the by...

Since this PRC was made before the TOB came out, you could say that feat (whatever it is) emulates the class feature. :smallwink:

Seriously though, I don't have the TOB and don't have any interest in getting it or using it. The core mechanic just doesn't appeal to me, so any similarities are purely by coincidence.

Now to try and address some things:


Must be making a Total Defense options to use any of these. abilities. Split Rose is a masterful defensive style, but has no offensive maneuvers whatsoever.

IMO that's way too literal of an interpretation. Besides, it is already represented; have you ever seen a melee class with poor AB before? Couple that with a complete focus on defensive fighting (see below) and you get the "no offensive moves" shtick. A style not having offensive technique doesn't mean you literally can't attack, it just means you wouldn't be any better at it then some looser off the street.

Furthermore the Split Rose Disciple doesn't have to take a total defense action because that's what the style is all about in the first place. Other fighters have to stop and do nothing else to defend themselves effectively, the Split Rose has no such limitation... that's already their specialty.



I think its too much to have both intelligence and half-clas level as Shield bonus. Take one of them but not both, I know Fighter are not supposed to have that much Int, but still easy enough to boost this shield bonus too far.

In just about any other case, I would agree. But you must remember, this is one of the primary points of the PRC. You give up pretty much any ability to attack on your own in exchange for defense and counters. It follows you would be better at defense then most anyone else.

Besides, this is a Shield bonus... which inherently sucks. It doesn't protect you from touch attacks, can't be stacked with a lot of spells and items, is lost at the drop of a hat, and in this case requires you to fight with a sub optimal weapon configuration.

Don't forget too, that the total bonus is limited by class level. An int of 10+ doesn't mean anything unless you take the PRC beyond 10 levels, and even then it just means you get to maintain the class level = Shield Bonus ratio a bit longer.



Nice to be able to counter attack but then I realised most power dont involved fighting on the defensive at all, so your giving normal attack plus lot of possible opportunity attacks you even give a really high bonus on thoses attacks.

Again, you've got to look beyond the feature on its own and analyze it vs. the rest of the world. Yes, you are still free to act on your own and you are awesome at counter attacks. But look a bit closer at how each type of attack effectively works out:

Normal Attack: 1/2 AB + Two Weapon Fighting Penalties.

AoO: Full AB + Two Weapon Fighting Penalties.

AoO against failed incoming attack: 1.5 AB + Two Weapon Fighting Penalties.

See what I mean? 1/2 AB plus two weapon fighting means the Split Rose Disciple can't hit anything with normal attacks; all of your output comes from counters, and even then normal AoO's are no better then any other melee class. This does dual duty of balancing your defensive prowess and representing the no offensive moves concept of Split Rose. It also means you suck at every other facet of combat, including performing or defending yourself from combat maneuvers. Adding a further limitation of forcing the total defense action would be unnecessary and ill advised.

In short, if you stand and try swing at stuff, you are wasting this class. A smart player will use their actions to maneuver and apply strategy so that enemies don't just walk around and ignore them.

You can see this in action within the comic itself. Bernadette tended to stay still and ready her actions, or use Diplomacy to try and force others off their game. Barring that, she used move actions to better position herself. Never once did she attack or think only of self defense. And just like this class she's a one trick pony; therefore she relies on being the best at that one trick. Nobody beats her at her own game (dueling and countering). But when an opponent takes that away by using magic, ranged attacks or just plain running away from her, she's utterly helpless.

DC

[Yora]

Reminds me of a feat I created once:


Twin Weapon Style [General]
Chose one type of one-handed weapon. You're exceptionally skilled with wielding two of these weapons at the same time.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: When wielding two weapons of the chosen type, you only incur the penalties to attack rolls for fighting with a light weapon in your off hand. You still add only half your Strength modifier to damage rolls with the secondary weapon.
Normal: Without this feat, fighting with a one-handed weapon in the off hand incurs a -2 penalty to hit for all attacks.
Special: This feat can be gained multiple times, each time applying to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Twin Weapon Style as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Inspired by the very same character. And unless I missed it, this ability is not yet included in your class.

[Xzoltar]

Now it make a lot more sense to have a low base attack bonus and a bonus on AoO instead. That's something I never have thought someone will ever do for a primary fighting class.

I like it a lot and may decide to do a Lesser ToB Discipline with it instead of a prestige class, easier to fit in my world. But good job doing something really original.

[Damon_Caskey]

I'm glad you like it.

I've added quite a bit the last couple of days to fill some gaps and make the class actually useful now; before there wasn't much it could do for the party. That's been a long standing issue I've known about, but it took me a while to think of some fixes that didn't break the class flavor.

See: Branching Stems (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Split_Rose_Disciple#Branching_Stem s_.28ex.29), Spiny Bristles (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Split_Rose_Disciple#Spiny_Bristles _.28ex.29), and Sprouting Bracts (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Split_Rose_Disciple#Sprouting_Brac ts_.28ex.29).

DC