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strider24seven
2010-02-22, 04:09 PM
I came across this idea yesterday, and thought I'd come up with a build:
Original Thread: Material Component Shenanigans (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6718.0)

The premise is that a grappled enemy's items can be used as material components for your spells. A fairly well-known example is a Cone of Cold cast of a fighter's sword/armor. This can get particularly nasty with certain vile feats or spells (the names and locations of which escape me at the moment) that let you use severed heads/eyes/blood/body parts to increase the CL or DC of a spell. Wail of the Banshee cast off the enemy's head? Insta-pop the mook (even if he makes his save) and everything within 40 ft that fails an increased Fort save:smalleek:!

What can be done turn this into a viable build?

I was thinking a Wizard or Archivist or possibly Duskblade as the base class, possibly with 3 levels of Factotum. 3 CL is a heck of a lot, but that's what Practiced Spellcaster is for, right?:smallwink: Then you get INT to grapple checks, which, when coupled with some spells, can get you a reliable grapple mod. A level of Monk might also be an option for IUS and Imp Grapple, but that's sacrificing a bit much.

What other classes/feats/spells can improve this concept build?
Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Shenanigans?

erikun
2010-02-22, 04:17 PM
A little common sense would indicate that you need to be in possession of material components in order to use them. Now, RAW is an unusual beast, so it may not be clearly stated as such... but I though it said somewhere that you need the components of a spell in your possession and in your hand before casting.

You are not in possession of a grappled opponent, even while pinned. You are not in possession of your opponent's equipment, unless you wrestle it from him. Thus, you could not use their armor as a material component (because it is not in your possession) nor could you use their head as a component (because you are not in possession of that, either).

Obviously, for this build, you need to be sure that you can use material components that you do not possess for your spells. If so, I would think that Ghost Hand would be far more efficient at "grabbing" an item to use as a component than trying to grapple someone.

Myou
2010-02-22, 04:18 PM
An attached head is not a severed head. So the Banshee thing won't work.

Also, you cannot 'posses' your enemy just by grappling.

Edit, beaten to it.

elonin
2010-02-22, 04:35 PM
There is also the notion that turn about is fair play. Enemy wizards could do the same to you.

Lysander
2010-02-22, 05:03 PM
Last I checked a sword or a suit of platemail isn't a tiny cone, even if you count metal as a crystal.

ericgrau
2010-02-22, 05:08 PM
When I saw the title I was thinking a polymorphed wizard, then I thought wait that's a bad idea it's better to polymorph the fighter with a higher BAB. If you can get some large enough creatures with low enough HD (not easy though) then that could keep a grapple focused build going until level 20. I found a few huge creatures of just about all HD, and for gargantuan - but limited HD - there is monstrous centipede and spider. But while your grappling modifier is through the roof, your actual grapple damage is pretty lousy. It may be better to polymorph a monk <dodges flames>.

CTLC
2010-02-22, 05:11 PM
grapplomancer (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Grapplemancer_(3.5e_Optimized_Build))

Darrin
2010-02-22, 05:16 PM
With a sufficiently high Sleight of Hand bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142080), anything that an opponent isn't currently wearing or holding in his hand can become a material component as a free action.

Myou
2010-02-22, 05:32 PM
With a sufficiently high Sleight of Hand bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142080), anything that an opponent isn't currently wearing or holding in his hand can become a material component as a free action.

If he doesn't wear OR hold it, how does he carry it? o.o

Darrin
2010-02-22, 07:27 PM
If he doesn't wear OR hold it, how does he carry it? o.o

By "wear" I mean an article of clothing. Any sheathed weapon, anything carried in a pouch or backpack, and articles of clothing that are somewhat loosely attached (hats/necklaces maybe) should be fair game.

Myou
2010-02-23, 09:45 AM
By "wear" I mean an article of clothing. Any sheathed weapon, anything carried in a pouch or backpack, and articles of clothing that are somewhat loosely attached (hats/necklaces maybe) should be fair game.

How are you going to steal items from a backpack without even knowing what's in there? Lucky dip? :smalltongue:

What if he puts his items under his armour where you can't get them?

Penitent
2010-02-23, 10:07 AM
When I saw the title I was thinking a polymorphed wizard, then I thought wait that's a bad idea it's better to polymorph the fighter with a higher BAB. If you can get some large enough creatures with low enough HD (not easy though) then that could keep a grapple focused build going until level 20. I found a few huge creatures of just about all HD, and for gargantuan - but limited HD - there is monstrous centipede and spider. But while your grappling modifier is through the roof, your actual grapple damage is pretty lousy. It may be better to polymorph a monk <dodges flames>.

Though this is mostly addressed by the listed Grapplmancer build:

1) It's not better to polymorph the Fighter, because the very limited advantage of a few BAB (that is more than made up for by Wizard spells and abilities) doesn't even work out to an advantage. And even if it did, taking up two whole character to have one good grappler is a waste, but if the Wizard does his own grappling that means you expend only one character on the process.

2) Even before Polymorph, The Wizard can do much more damage, via spells. And a Monk would basically never have a higher grapple bonus.

3) Note the build takes place entirely in a pre-polymorph land, if you start post polymorph, you can even just ignore Str.

ericgrau
2010-02-23, 11:12 AM
1&3) The wizard polymorphs the grappler and moves on to casting other spells. The fighter has better AB and HP, the wizard can tag him with almost anything he can tag himself with, and the wizard can't cast while polymorphed. What advantage exactly are you imagining??

2) Unlikely. Also, grappling gives control.

I'm thinking you're just making everything up, and would like to see some more substantial numbers or examples.

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 11:22 AM
1&3) The wizard polymorphs the grappler and moves on to casting other spells. The fighter has better AB and HP, the wizard can tag him with almost anything he can tag himself with, and the wizard can't cast while polymorphed. What advantage exactly are you imagining??

Hm, well, Wizard can of course Tenser's to full BAB; he'll lose casting in many forms anyways so that's not a problem. Of course, you are better off acquiring some source of Divine Power or some such. Or Polymorphing whatever Planar Bound creature you've got available. But Polymorphing yourself still makes you a better grappler than unpolymorphed Fighter. At level 9 spells, Wizard wins out even in Core tho as Shapechance is Personal-range.

Out-of-core though, you get Octopus-familiar (+4 Grapple-checks), those various anti-grappler spells and overall sick grapplomancy. This thread (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=13119) goes to decent lengths on the subject, though of course the spell expediture is quite heavy.

ericgrau
2010-02-23, 11:39 AM
Do you Tenser, lose your casting ability, and then polymorph yourself, or do you polymorph yourself, lose your casting ability and then tenser yourself? Not to mention HP. There's also the mater of action economy; the less actions you spend setting this up the better.

It is a team game, so it's better to polymorph the best target rather than looking for ways to be better than him. Shapechange has a type and duration advantage, which is awesome for utility uses, but otherwise it's no stronger than polymorph. If you take the Vaarsuvius vs. Ancient-Black-Dragon fight, for example, the actual dragon V was capable of shapechanging into is pathetic combared to an ABD, thanks to the 25 HD cap. Having worse AB and HP than the form she changed into means she was actually worse than that form that was already much worse than an ABD. But that's more of a limitation of polymorph in general, which is why you use it to gain unusual things like gargantuan size instead. Or find splatbooks that accidentally included creatures with a CR higher than their HD, but IMO that's a no-no.

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 11:51 AM
Do you Tenser, lose your casting ability, and then polymorph yourself, or do you polymorph yourself, lose your casting ability and then tenser yourself? Not to mention HP. There's also the mater of action economy; the less actions you spend setting this up the better.

Obviously. You could e.g. use Contingency to set that up so both go off. Meh, it's not practical but it can be done. You could also just Still Silent the Tenser's or something, but that takes higher level slots.


It is a team game, so it's better to polymorph the best target rather than looking for ways to be better than him. Shapechange has a type and duration advantage, but otherwise it's no stronger than polymorph. If you take the Vaarsuvius vs. Ancient-Black-Dragon fight, for example, the actual dragon V was capable of shapechanging into is pathetic combared to an ABD, thanks to the 25 HD cap. Having worse AB and HP than the form she changed into means she was actually worse than that form that was already much worse than an ABD. But that's more of a limitation of polymorph in general, which is why you use it to gain unusual things like gargantuan size instead.

Remorhaz is prolly the earliest good Grappler-form. You get it when you get Polymorph. Then they'll get better from there. And Shapechange is way stronger than Polymorph in the following ways:
- Supernatural abilities; these include lots of tasty stuff like double actions.
- Free action to shift between forms; have Grappler-form at your fingertips while traveling in e.g. Choker-form.
- Access to Outsider-type. Pit Fiends have nice stats (tho rather poor size Grappling-wise) and overall, the Outsider-list includes lots of tasty forms for anything.
- Higher HD access. This means crap like Purple Worm, Gargantuan Vermin and so on.


Of course it's a team-game, but the question is whether the Wizard needs the Fighter as a Polymorph-shell and which ultimately is the better Polymorph-target. And tangentially, whether Wizard is better off teaming with another Wizard or a Fighter.

If you have a Fighter in the party, of course you Polymorph him just to let him do his thing; that's the only nice thing to do (well, outside not using Polymorph in the first place). But that's not a very productive answer to asking how to build a Wizard Grappler.


Or find splatbooks that accidentally included creatures with a CR higher than their HD, but IMO that's a no-no.

Eh, MM has plenty of those; see basically any Outsider (which can be acquired through Shapechange even without Outsider-type).

Penitent
2010-02-23, 12:12 PM
1&3) The wizard polymorphs the grappler and moves on to casting other spells. The fighter has better AB and HP, the wizard can tag him with almost anything he can tag himself with, and the wizard can't cast while polymorphed. What advantage exactly are you imagining??

The fighter does not have higher AB, as mentioned. The Wizard cannot tag the fighter with anything that he has, he cannot tag him with all sorts of things he has. The Wizard can cast while Polymorphed, and the spells he casting are spells that have durations anyway.


2) Unlikely. Also, grappling gives control.

Not unlikely, in fact, absolutely certain. And grappling gives control, which is the main advantage to grappling, which is why the Wizard is so good at it, because of his higher grapple checks.


I'm thinking you're just making everything up, and would like to see some more substantial numbers or examples.

I'm thinking you could just click on the link that was provided and be easily refuted, but whatever.

Assuming in a post polymorph level, Str doesn't matter, so what you have is:

(Str + Size)(determined by polymorph) + BAB + other bonuses.

So if a level 7 Wizard can manage excess bonuses greater than 4, that cannot be matched by a fighter, he has a higher AB. Octopus Familiar, Fearsome Grapple. Bamn, Wizard has +7 that no one else can have. At CL 9 it increases to +11.

That means even at 20th level, with only +10 BAB, he still has a higher grapple check than a Fighter at every level from 7 to 20 using only a familiar and a single swift action second level spell that is personal range.

As for the reason that even if you did have a way to give these things to the fighter, you wouldn't want to is simple:

You don't get to make other peoples characters. When you make your character, you have a reason to take Improved Grapple and Abberent Blood, you certainly can't force your friend to waste three feats and take a fluff path that may not fit his character just so he can be an awesome grappler when you are casting spells on him, he may actually want to be a real character without your help.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 12:35 PM
A properly prepared familiar can be an absolute beast in combat...and it's already part of a wizard's repertoire.

Psicrystals are better (since they don't need a Tenser's super special awesome ultra sexy special transformation sequence GO!), but a wizard/familiar team designed around such can stomp just about any fighter into the dirt in melee (or ranged, for that matter).

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-23, 12:42 PM
Not to mention wizards have more options for dealing with Freedom of Movement.

Even as low as level 1.

Orc Fighter with 22 Strength, and Two feats (Imp unarmed strike, Imp Grapple) has a +11 Grapple modifier.

Human Wizard with 18 strength, and the same 2 feats (Imp unarmed strike, Imp Grapple), has a +8.

Now, add in Fist of stone? +11.
Alternatively, add in Enlarge Person? +13.

Even at the lowest levels, wizards can compete effectively, if they are built for the concept. Such a wizard would likely not have a super high int, somewhere in the 14 range, but it can be boosted as you level.

Alternatively, if you want to be a standard wizard to level 7, and a polymorph grapple junkie after then, get the 13 dex for imp grapple, and dump Str.

strider24seven
2010-02-23, 02:47 PM
Although the level 1 Wizard could only grapple really well for a few minutes a day, while the level 1 Fighter could grapple moderately well all day long.

Nice catch on the Sleight of Hand, Darrin. And for taking items straight from the enemy's hands: unarmed (improved) disarm! Enlightened Fist ftw!:smallcool:

I know that the original idea was a long shot, even by RAW, but I thought it would make an entertaining, or at least unusual, concept.

Cheers!

Kantolin
2010-02-23, 03:51 PM
Not to mention wizards have more options for dealing with Freedom of Movement.

Even as low as level 1.

Orc Fighter with 22 Strength, and Two feats (Imp unarmed strike, Imp Grapple) has a +11 Grapple modifier.

Human Wizard with 18 strength, and the same 2 feats (Imp unarmed strike, Imp Grapple), has a +8.

Now, add in Fist of stone? +11.
Alternatively, add in Enlarge Person? +13.

Well, uh. Yes. (Actualy, enlarge person gives you functionally a +5 to grappling, +4 for size and +1 for the strength bonus) (Edit: Missed the 'alternatively')

Alternately, however, he can use that same enlarge person and enlarge... the orc fighter. Enlarge person isn't personal. This gives you the perk of now you don't have to spend the two grapple feats, the fighter gets to do his job, and you can prepare grease or mage armour or something instead of fist of stone. Or enlarge the other frontliner as well. Plus, an enemy with a knife or natural attack won't shiv your d4 HD for your impunence, which can be a significant problem (Okay, you have them grappled... now you're exchanging light weapon blows? Monsters that only have natural attacks are relatively unphazed).

So the statement isn't that a grapple wizard doesn't work - it's that since most of the spells aren't personal, casting them on the party beatstick is probably a better option. Plus, he'll like you better. Plus, the spells are probably generally useful to him (most fighter types like being enlarged).

If you do want to do it, however, grapple wizards can work fine. If you'd like to be devoted there, consider this variant: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard To let you swap out your wizard feats for fighter bonus feats.

Penitent
2010-02-23, 04:55 PM
As opposed to shiving the Fighter and his puny d10? Everyone is weak at level 1 6HP or 12HP.

The trick is to control a grapple and pin.

And honestly, Grappling isn't a good idea at level 1 unless you are facing only a single enemy, because everyone is so weak, and you will get shived by the people you don't have your dex bonus against.

But yes, most of the spells, by which I mean, most of the actual +to grapple, is Personal. Wizard at level 1 with 16 Str has a +10 bonus, compared to a fighter with Str 22 having a +11 bonus, and that's before casting any spells at all.

Meanwhile, this was actually about once polymorph comes into play, and at every post polymorph level, the Wizard has a large grapple check advantage over the fighter.

Kantolin
2010-02-23, 05:40 PM
As opposed to shiving the Fighter and his puny d10? Everyone is weak at level 1 6HP or 12HP.

The difference between 6HP and 12HP is that the former will drop much more quickly when trading knife hits, or natural attack hits. +6HP is a lot at level 1 - some things can drop a fighter in one, but this is far less likely and common than dropping a wizard in one.


But yes, most of the spells, by which I mean, most of the actual +to grapple, is Personal.

Enlarge person is not personal, and that is one of if not the best grapple-boosting spells (especially for first level spells). Polymorph is not personal.

Fist of stone is indeed personal, and that's really it focally on grapple-boosting. Most of the 'awesome but personal' buffs are cleric spells (Now, if your argument was should a cleric buff himself and grapple or buff the fighter and grapple, then that's far less of an argument as the awesome cleric buffs are generally personal, but that's neither here nor there).


Wizard at level 1 with 16 Str has a +10 bonus, compared to a fighter with Str 22 having a +11 bonus, and that's before casting any spells at all.

Wha? A wizard at level one with 16 strength has (Str(3) + BAB(0) + Size(0) + Improved Grapple(4)) = +7, before casting any spells. And has an extremely vulnerable cat?

A fighter at level one with 22 strength has (Str(6) + BAB(1) + Size(0) + Improved Grapple(4)) = +11. And an extra feat to boot. And is doing additional damage in that grapple due to his higher strength, and has martial weapons as options further increasing the additional damage.


Meanwhile, this was actually about once polymorph comes into play, and at every post polymorph level, the Wizard has a large grapple check advantage over the fighter.

But the wizard can polymorph /the fighter/, and it's better to polymorph said fighter as he'll have a higher base attack bonus, hit points, and probably will have more feats focused on beating things to death.

I mean, to quote myself: So the statement isn't that a grapple wizard doesn't work - it's that since most of the spells aren't personal, casting them on the party beatstick is probably a better option. Plus, he'll like you better. Plus, the spells are probably generally useful to him (most fighter types like being enlarged).

Casting them on the beatstick also means you can dump strength or put a moderate value there, while he's almost certainly hyperboosting his strength as much as he can.

Penitent
2010-02-23, 07:59 PM
Wha? A wizard at level one with 16 strength has (Str(3) + BAB(0) + Size(0) + Improved Grapple(4)) = +7, before casting any spells. And has an extremely vulnerable cat?

A fighter at level one with 22 strength has (Str(6) + BAB(1) + Size(0) + Improved Grapple(4)) = +11. And an extra feat to boot. And is doing additional damage in that grapple due to his higher strength, and has martial weapons as options further increasing the additional damage.

Wha? A level 1 Wizard focused on grappling has an Octupus Familiar which gives a +3 untyped bonus to grappling, and additionally the fighter doesn't have an extra feat, because he has to take Improved unarmed strike, and he can't be human and have a 22. A Wizard could have a bonus feat at level 1, but I was just assuming Human and no bonus feat for combat feats. And once again, one of those spells is "Babau Slime" for 1d8 damage added to whatever, which is going to kill everyone anyway.


But the wizard can polymorph /the fighter/, and it's better to polymorph said fighter as he'll have a higher base attack bonus, hit points, and probably will have more feats focused on beating things to death.

Except that there is no reason to polymorph the fighter, because 1) The fighter won't be specced to polymorph grapple, because he wants to be a real character even when you aren't around. 2) His higher BAB is worthless because he still has a lower grapple check than the Wizard. And he doesn't even have higher HP by level 7ish, and even if he did, who cares, because the point of the Wizard is to negate actions by pinning and dazing. 3) He doesn't have more feats to be specced for grappling, because there are only two fighter bonus feats in the entire game that add to grappling, and those are both taken at level 1 by both builds.


I mean, to quote myself: So the statement isn't that a grapple wizard doesn't work - it's that since most of the spells aren't personal, casting them on the party beatstick is probably a better option. Plus, he'll like you better. Plus, the spells are probably generally useful to him (most fighter types like being enlarged).

Except you are wrong, and you have already been proven wrong, because with a single personal range spell and a familiar, both available only to the Wizard, the Wizard has a higher grapple check than the fighter, and with Bladeweave, only the Wizard can have, he is easily lockdowning anything.


Casting them on the beatstick also means you can dump strength or put a moderate value there, while he's almost certainly hyperboosting his strength as much as he can.

Again, it's polymorph. It replaces your Str. You can have a Str of 2, and he can have a Str of 50, that's just more reason to not polymorph the fighter and to polymorph yourself.

Kantolin
2010-02-23, 09:10 PM
Wha? A level 1 Wizard focused on grappling has an Octupus Familiar which gives a +3 untyped bonus to grappling

Wow, I'd never heard of an octopus familiar.

Either way, uh. Even with an octopus familiar... that's ten, not eleven. Give me a hummingbird or raven or something anyday.


And once again, one of those spells is "Babau Slime" for 1d8 damage added to whatever, which is going to kill everyone anyway.

So the wizard casted enlarge person on himself, then casted babau slime on himself, and then started grappling? Instead of casting enlarge person on the fighter, and babau slime on the fighter(It's also touch), who then can start grappling? Or casting enlarge person on the fighter and then something else, like maybe grease or color spray or sleep or something?


Except that there is no reason to polymorph the fighter, because 1) The fighter won't be specced to polymorph grapple, because he wants to be a real character even when you aren't around.

'Spec' is two feats, but that is an argument. Simultaneously, it's probable that the fighter's grappling is higher anyway given his higher BAB.


2) His higher BAB is worthless because he still has a lower grapple check than the Wizard.

If you cast a bunch of spells on yourself then yes, the wizard can outgrapple the fighter. But thus far, the majority of the spells you're casting on yourself can also be used on the fighter. Or heck, the cleric.


Except you are wrong, and you have already been proven wrong, because with a single personal range spell and a familiar, both available only to the Wizard, the Wizard has a higher grapple check than the fighter,

Fist of Stone costs a standard action to use, and lasts a minute. If you're metamagicing and using reducers, you could pick a better spell to do it to (Maybe polymorph).

Enlarge person is more useful, has general uses (Oh look, a bunch of kobolds... here fighter, be enlarged)... and can be used on the fighter (Who, in fact, can grapple the round you do this rather than waiting until next round).

Basically, instead of using that single personal ranged spell, he could use any of the plethora of generally more useful not-personal ranged spells, like enlarge person, on the fighter.

The wizard /can/ have a higher grapple modifier than the unbuffed fighter, but he's really better off using most of those buffs on the fighter who's cool with being up front. Or the cleric.


Again, it's polymorph. It replaces your Str. You can have a Str of 2, and he can have a Str of 50, that's just more reason to not polymorph the fighter and to polymorph yourself.

You can polymorph yourself, resulting in a fighter and a grappling kraken, or you can polymorph the fighter, reuslting in a grappling kraken and a wizard. Or you can spend multiple turns or a bunch of metamagic reducers on being able to grapple better than the fighter, instead of using those same reducers to quicken out some polymorph / enlarge / babau / whatever on the fighter who is better when he has them.

If the question was 'Can the wizard buff himself to be a better grappler than the fighter', the answer is absolutely yes.

If the question is 'Can the wizard buff the fighter into a better grappler than if he buffed himself', the answer is also yes. Although I suppose eventually, you'll have casted so many of the various awesome touch ranged buffs that you'll want to cast fist of stone...

Penitent
2010-02-23, 09:58 PM
You know what, get back to me when you have actually read anything at all that I have said.

0) Read what I actually said, at level 1, with 6 less PB points in Str, and Not having to pick a sub par race, the Wizard has a grapple modifier of one less. That's why I said it has a modifier of +10 in my post.

1) Yes a Wizard casting Color Spray is better than a Fighter doing anything, and also better than a Wizard being a better fighter than a fighter. That has nothing to do with anything.

If the question is: Wizard and Grapple Fighter versus Wizard and Grapple Wizard, you want Grapple Wizard.

2) It's more than 2 feats, if you actually read the examples, you would see that.

3) No, the Wizard cannot buff the Fighter to be a better Grappler than he can be himself. A Wizard cannot cast Fearsome Grapple on the Fighter, nor can he give his Familiar bonus to the Fighter.

As such, a level 7 Polymorphed Wizard will always have a higher grapple check than a Level 7 Polymorphed Fighter when specced for it, and with less spell slot expenditure.

A level 7 Grapple Wizard using only Polymorph and Fearsome Grapple has a check of:

Str + Size +4 (Improved Grapple) +2 (Aberrant Blood) +3 or 6 (Familiar) +4 (Fearsome Grapple) +3 (BAB) +X (Any other boosts) = Str+Size+16 or 19.

A Fighter has Str + Size + 4(Improved Grapple) +2 (Aberrant Blood) +7 BAB +X = Str+Size +13.

He has a lower AB. Period. Game over. And since the real deal is actions, the point is that it takes just as many actions for the Wizard to get to that grapple check as it does for the fighter to get to his lower grapple check.

There are no meta reducers, there is only personal range spells, a familiar, and polymorph. That's it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 10:15 PM
There are no meta reducers, there is only personal range spells, a familiar, and polymorph. That's it.Has anyone mentioned that the familiar can Aid Another? Also polymorphed. If all else fails, the wizard buffs the familiar while turned into, say, a sparrow (hoorah hengeyokai!). Healing can be done by vampiric touch, etc.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-23, 10:49 PM
So the wizard casted enlarge person on himself, then casted babau slime on himself, and then started grappling? Instead of casting enlarge person on the fighter, and babau slime on the fighter(It's also touch), who then can start grappling? Or casting enlarge person on the fighter and then something else, like maybe grease or color spray or sleep or something?Sure. Let's say the wizard wants to enlarge the fighter.

Let's say the fighter is a 12 Str, 18 Dex Human with Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge and Mobility (intending on being a tempest). How then does grappling fare?

Point is? YOU DO NOT MAKE OTHER PEOPLE'S CHARACTERS, NOR DO YOU DICTATE HOW THEY PLAY.

All you get is your character. You.


'Spec' is two feats, but that is an argument. Simultaneously, it's probable that the fighter's grappling is higher anyway given his higher BAB.At level 1-2? That BAB difference is +1. Not a huge amount to overcome. Even the Octopus familiar outdoes it, granting a +3 bonus.


If you cast a bunch of spells on yourself then yes, the wizard can outgrapple the fighter. But thus far, the majority of the spells you're casting on yourself can also be used on the fighter. Or heck, the cleric.And they'll make the fighter have nearly as good a modifier as a grapple spec wizard.


Fist of Stone costs a standard action to use, and lasts a minute. If you're metamagicing and using reducers, you could pick a better spell to do it to (Maybe polymorph).Sure, once you hit level 9. Also, Fist of Stone lasts longer than most fights, and represents a smaller investment.


Enlarge person is more useful, has general uses (Oh look, a bunch of kobolds... here fighter, be enlarged)... and can be used on the fighter (Who, in fact, can grapple the round you do this rather than waiting until next round).Unless the fighter already acted this round... Or had to move to you to be enlarged.


Basically, instead of using that single personal ranged spell, he could use any of the plethora of generally more useful not-personal ranged spells, like enlarge person, on the fighter.And basically, doing that will render a character that is LESS capable, in terms of pure numbers.


The wizard /can/ have a higher grapple modifier than the unbuffed fighter, but he's really better off using most of those buffs on the fighter who's cool with being up front. Or the cleric.A properly built wizard can be safer on the front line than anyone in full plate. Wizards are all about controlling the enemy, so that the other people can effectively kill them. Denying an enemy dex to AC and the ability to move seems right up their alley.


You can polymorph yourself, resulting in a fighter and a grappling kraken, or you can polymorph the fighter, reuslting in a grappling kraken and a wizard. Or you can spend multiple turns or a bunch of metamagic reducers on being able to grapple better than the fighter, instead of using those same reducers to quicken out some polymorph / enlarge / babau / whatever on the fighter who is better when he has them.Well, assuming you're level 7? The fighter BAB is 4 points better. Octopus familiar, and you're only 1 point down. It doesn't take "multiple turns and metamagic reducers".

The point isn't "is grappling the optimal tactic for a wizard". It's not. NOBODY is seriously trying to argue that.

It's not "will a standard wizard outdo a grapple specialist fighter in grapple". It won't.

It's, "given the proper build, and the proper self cast buffs, can a wizard grapple more effectively than a fighter?" To that, the answer is yes. And you just said that above, even if the admission is couched in a bunch of inaccurate rhetoric.


If the question was 'Can the wizard buff himself to be a better grappler than the fighter', the answer is absolutely yes.

If the question is 'Can the wizard buff the fighter into a better grappler than if he buffed himself', the answer is also yes. Although I suppose eventually, you'll have casted so many of the various awesome touch ranged buffs that you'll want to cast fist of stone...
Actually, the answer to the last one is no. With the personal only buffs available, a wizard, properly built for grappling, WILL have a better grapple mod than a fighter. In addition, he'll actually be able to do this by himself, unlike the fighter, who will be a 98 pound weakling without his wizard buddy to polymorphrawr him.

BenTheJester
2010-02-23, 11:08 PM
What about Cleric Grappler?

Divine Power would be a major factor.

But he would lose Fearsome Grapple(which is +4/+8 later on)

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 11:15 PM
Depends. Eventually, when they reach 17, Cleric gets Giant Size which Wizard has no good answer to (+32 Str) and probably pulls out ahead. Of course Wizard can be it, but that takes notably more work. Cleric has far easier time replicating Wizard's tricks with Spell-domain and Domain-spells in general.

What he can't get is the +6 (on level 3) from the Octopus. So on low levels, Wizard will be ahead. On mid-levels, too, thanks to easier access to Polymorph, Bite of the X and so on. But on high levels, I'd say Cleric pulls out ahead simply because Miracle is ridiculous.

Penitent
2010-02-23, 11:16 PM
What about Cleric Grappler?

Divine Power would be a major factor.

But he would lose Fearsome Grapple(which is +4/+8 later on)

And the Familiar, and he'd only have Polymorph from a Domain. And Wizards can get Divine Power too, by any number of means, depending on level.

It really comes down to who is easier to Persist with, if you DM allows Incantatrix, go Wizard, if he doesn't but does all DMM Persist, go Cleric. If he allows neither, Go Wizard. (Wizards can also get pretty good BAB ratios, with PrCs, so even if they don't have the ability to Persist castings from a Wand of Divine Power or Limited Wish themselves Divine Power, they have a pretty hefty advantage.)

EDIT: Giant Size... I don't even want to try to figure out how that interacts with Polymorph or Shapechange.