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Draz74
2010-02-22, 05:57 PM
Today's debate over whether you can benefit from more than one Resist Energy spell (of different types) simultaneously got me thinking. Suppose you cannot.

Would it not be hilarious if you have, say, a fire-themed Sorcerer, and the BBEG (using plenty of anti-Dispel Caster Level buffing) casts Resist Fire on himself at the beginning of the big fight ...

So the party Cleric just casts Resist Energy (sonic) on the BBEG, and the Sorcerer starts blasting away with fire with impunity?

Of course this is a pale shadow of the classic example of this tactic, casting Resurrection on the BBEG's Dragonhide Armor. :smallbiggrin:

Any other examples of when "buffs" or "friendly" utility spells can be used as nasty attacks?

Bonus points if they're actually good tactics in practice, which my examples generally are not. (Resist Energy allows a Fortitude save and is Touch range; Resurrection takes 10 minutes to cast.)

Eurus
2010-02-22, 06:00 PM
Shrink Item for boulder-dropping is one of the major examples. You might be able to use a Mass Unseen Servant spell to encumber an enemy, with each servant exerting 20 pounds of force to weigh someone down. :smallbiggrin:

unre9istered
2010-02-22, 06:03 PM
Enlarge person on the stealthy ninja type. (-5 effectively) Hide and -1 (-2 effectively) AC with -2 Dex.

lsfreak
2010-02-22, 06:13 PM
Of course this is a pale shadow of the classic example of this tactic, casting Resurrection on the BBEG's Dragonhide Armor. :smallbiggrin:

Too bad it's a 10-minute casting time. I don't know anywho who'd let the BBEG ramble on that long without just shooting him in the face.

Enlarge Person -> retreat through the door.

Enlarge Person -> thanks to wonky rules the fighter can no longer carry his gear and collapses under the weight.

Reduce Person on the halfling rogue -> can no longer reach vital organs and therefore can't sneak attack. And has to enter enemy squares (therefore provoking) in order to attack.

Lysander
2010-02-22, 06:22 PM
Cast Light on an enemy's gear. Now they can't turn invisible without you knowing more or less where they are.

Have the horse summoned with Mount attack a creature rather than you riding it.

Cast Expeditious Retreat on a fighter to let them charge a distant foe.

Hide in a Tiny Hut while casting damaging weather spells.

Glimbur
2010-02-22, 06:37 PM
Helping Hand unerringly directs a person towards you with a ghostly but visible hand. Cast it to lead the rogue/shadowdancer you know is hiding in plain sight nearby, and drop a glitterdust on the hand to catch the sneak.

lsfreak
2010-02-22, 06:59 PM
Unseen Servant can be all kinds of fun if you're creative. They can drop marbles or caltrops, close doors, reload crossbows, assist with skill checks (including, if I'm not mistaken, taking actions to aid another on their AC). It never says whether they could fly or not, so potentially they could lift up a sheet across a section of battlefield and block LoS/LoE to the other side. Likewise, it doesn't say their size, but could possibly provide soft cover (it says they take no damage, but is silent on whether they actually take up space or block projectiles or movement - it would seem they do). They could ruin charges by blocking the charger's path, and take up spaces in a small hallway to keep people from easily passing (though they would, of course, eventually get through with bull rushes or just jumping over). They could (assisting each other) possibly drag helpless/paralyzed people over cliffs, into water, or into lava, depending on if the DM decides 'grappling' is still relevant to a helpless person.

FishAreWet
2010-02-22, 07:02 PM
Spellguard of Silverymoon turns Personal spells into touch.

Now go around and touch people with all sorts of things. Like Tenser's Transformation on the Wizard. Or Transcend Mortality on anything.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-22, 07:06 PM
Today's debate over whether you can benefit from more than one Resist Energy spell (of different types) simultaneously got me thinking. Suppose you cannot.
Then you're putting the lie to the spell description:
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Anyway, staying on topic: how about Brilliant Blade when someone is trying to use their adamantine weapon to cut through a door or wall? :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-02-22, 07:10 PM
Cure spells have the same descriptor, yet undead don't like them.

Most of these tricks are surprisingly legal :smalleek:.

Arguably you might have to be touching the target for the entire casting time of ressurection, making it impractical. Shrink item to drop boulders was disallowed in some FAQ or sage answer, in that you could drop it or speak the command word but not both simultaneously. The type of horse created by the mount spell is afraid of combat.

Sanguine
2010-02-22, 07:15 PM
Cure spells have the same descriptor, yet undead don't like them.

Most of these tricks are surprisingly legal :smalleek:.

Arguably you might have to be touching the target for the entire casting time of ressurection, making it impractical. Shrink item to drop boulders was disallowed in some FAQ or sage answer, in that you could drop it or speak the command word but not both simultaneously. The type of horse created by the mount spell is afraid of combat.


Then obviously you have the Fighter/Summoned Creature/Cohort drop it and ready an action to speak the command word when it does this.

ericgrau
2010-02-22, 07:22 PM
Now you're going to make me look up the exact reason why you couldn't do it >_<. How about because the DM says no? :smalltongue: EDIT: Nevermind, I can't find the ruling anymore.

Swooper
2010-02-22, 08:02 PM
Dropping things is usually a free action, so that ruling wouldn't make sense anyway.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-22, 08:15 PM
Arguably you might have to be touching the target for the entire casting time of ressurection, making it impractical

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge

In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

(Emphasis added, specific text from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration)). Takes a bit of prep-work, and really careful spell management, but can totally be done.

elonin
2010-02-22, 08:33 PM
Now you're going to make me look up the exact reason why you couldn't do it >_<. How about because the DM says no? :smalltongue: EDIT: Nevermind, I can't find the ruling anymore.

So we retreat to rule 0 which is a part of the game even though it isn't RAW. The reason behind wotc ruling this way is that they didn't realize how broken the spell is until people asked questions about it.

I like casting stone to flesh under my enemies.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-22, 08:42 PM
Shrink Item on boulders is fine. The important thing to remember is that dropping does not necessarily imply hitting. D&D requires either of two things:

a successful attack roll to hit the target, with penalties for nonproficiency, range, and so on; or
a successful attack to hit the square (DC 5), and for the target to fail a DC 15 Reflex save (rules in Heroes of Battle, page 68) to avoid the dropped object

Fiery Diamond
2010-02-22, 08:46 PM
How is the shrink item trick broken? That's practically what shrink item is for!

Draz74
2010-02-22, 08:46 PM
Most of these tricks are surprisingly legal :smalleek:.

Fortunately, yes. I am easily bored by "clever" tricks that are really just rules abuses.

Shrink Item ... I knew that would get mentioned. That spell was just written in a way that totally invites cheese like this. I don't even consider it a utility spell anymore. :smallyuk:

Helping Hand ... yes, that is another classic. :smallamused:

EDIT: Personally, as a DM or a player, I would be willing to do a bit of cheese/unusual setup in order to get the Resurrect the Dragonhide Armor trick to work, just because ... Rule of Cool. Perhaps a Spectral Hand and a good Sleight of Hand check could let you touch the BBEG for 10 minutes without his noticing?

Talon Sky
2010-02-22, 08:52 PM
One of my players used Create Water once to fill an enemy's lungs with water. I was a little ticked ;p

lsfreak
2010-02-22, 08:58 PM
One of my players used Create Water once to fill an enemy's lungs with water. I was a little ticked ;p

Technically not legal, though I'd allow it once as a rule-of-cool thing, with the target then spending several rounds coughing it up.

EDIT: Over-deleted myself. They don't have LoS or LoE to their target, which makes it illegal. Plus, zero-level spell for a no-save nausea effect is really powerful.

Talon Sky
2010-02-22, 08:59 PM
Technically not legal, though I'd allow it once as a rule-of-cool thing, with the target then spending several rounds coughing it up.

Yeah, it was a one-time thing and I allowed it because they weren't going to win anyways. And every round the BBEG made a Fort save; when he failed, he drowned. ;p

deuxhero
2010-02-22, 09:07 PM
Arguably you might have to be touching the target for the entire casting time of ressurection, making it impractical. .

Scrolls are always a standard action.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-22, 09:10 PM
Scrolls are always a standard action.
Sorry....


To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

The four ways to activate magic items are described below. (Emphasis added, specific text from Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems))

Scrolls of spells that take ten minutes to cast take ten minutes to activate (there's an alternate interpertation, namely that spells take the casting time that it would take to activate the item that contains it, so that all spells have a standard action casting time, but that's an interpretation that'll get you hit over the head with the largest handy blunt object at the gaming table)

Nerocite
2010-02-22, 09:15 PM
One of my players used Create Water once to fill an enemy's lungs with water. I was a little ticked ;p

There's actually a spell that does that, called Drown.

deuxhero
2010-02-22, 09:17 PM
Isn't scroll=standard action how the OotS could use a scroll of message to ask v's mentor to kill the black dragon?

edit: Yup


This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Trumps general.

Douglas
2010-02-22, 09:33 PM
Too bad it's a 10-minute casting time. I don't know anywho who'd let the BBEG ramble on that long without just shooting him in the face.
It's a touch spell, though, and there's theoretically no limit to how long you can hold the charge. All you have to do is know that the battle's coming up soon, cast it beforehand, and discharge it as your first action in combat.

elonin
2010-02-22, 09:57 PM
Quicken spell+arcane reach=fun with resurrection.

Starscream
2010-02-22, 10:42 PM
Avoid Planar Effects on creatures that would otherwise benefit from them (undead in the negative energy plane for example). No save either.

Fuse Arms on a creature that fights with two weapons.

Invisibility on a creature with some power that needs to be seen to have an effect (like a gaze attack or frightful presence). Greater invisibility would probably work better, you don't want them to dispel it just by attacking.

Tortoise Shell grants a nice bonus to Natural Armor, but decreases its speed. Might be good to prevent a retreat.

unre9istered
2010-02-22, 10:45 PM
Quicken spell+arcane reach=fun with resurrection.

Quicken doesn't work on anything with a casting time that long. I don't know of anything that does.

Quietus
2010-02-22, 11:10 PM
Quicken doesn't work on anything with a casting time that long. I don't know of anything that does.

Automatic quicken spell (Epic)?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-22, 11:22 PM
Limited Wish replicating Reincarnate should cause enough shenanigans, though it's better if the dragon is going to retain a goodly amount of spellcasting in its new form, and wishes are of course always risky.

Hm, I just noticed something. Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) requires 1000gp of material components. Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) requires you to pay for material components costing more than 1000gp. Aside from the 300 XP, that sounds like a free 1 round reincarnate to me.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-22, 11:29 PM
Quicken doesn't work on anything with a casting time that long. I don't know of anything that does.Linked Power on a Spell-to-Power erudite. (Doable via research.)

Dispel magic + explosive runes = bookful of hundreds of 6d6 explosions PLUS a debuff.

Hold portal on a mimic?

Mount to activate a trap near an enemy or to knock the supports off of a ledge or bridge.

Summon instrument to bring you a pixie skald. Invisible raging bardbarians FTW!

Floating disk (http://i.peperonity.com/c/17B589/172115/ssc3/home/036/dragon-ball.z/attacks.jpg_320_320_0_9223372036854775000_0_1_0.jp g).

Silent image to cover over a pit, or disguise a trap, or to make a really big, angry-looking dragon to scare someone into jumping off a cliff.

See invisibility to blind someone. They can see air.

Shatter to drop a chandelier on someone. Alternately, to drop the support out from under someone (see: bridge, etc).

Magic mouth to activate speech-activated magic items.

Nystul's magic aura/phantom trap to obscure the REAL magical trap.

Mirror image on a shadowcraft mage to fire off [1d4+1/3 lvls] spells per round.

Time hop the rope on that trebuchet...while people have it cocked and readied.

Etc.

Sophismata
2010-02-23, 12:10 AM
StP Erudite using Link Power.

Edit: God damn it!

deuxhero
2010-02-23, 10:19 AM
Limited Wish replicating Reincarnate should cause enough shenanigans, though it's better if the dragon is going to retain a goodly amount of spellcasting in its new form, and wishes are of course always risky.

Hm, I just noticed something. Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) requires 1000gp of material components. Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) requires you to pay for material components costing more than 1000gp. Aside from the 300 XP, that sounds like a free 1 round reincarnate to me.

You are spending the equivalent of 1500 GP though.

Cyclocone
2010-02-23, 10:49 AM
Arguably you might have to be touching the target for the entire casting time of ressurection, making it impractical.

Uncanny Forethought (technically) lets you cast all spells as full-round actions.

Alacritous Cogitation would work as well, but I think it got nerfed eratta'ed.

unre9istered
2010-02-23, 11:05 AM
Automatic quicken spell (Epic)?

Automatic quicken still says this:

Spells with a casting time of more than 1 full round can't be quickened.

ericgrau
2010-02-23, 11:17 AM
Scrolls are always a standard action.

Not this debate. There is a rule that clearly says scrolls are a standard action (the word "always" isn't there, btw). There is a rule that clearly says their casting time is the same as the spell on them. Both have been quoted. They both have equal priority, neither is more specific than the other. Guess what? One's an error. IIRC it's the standard action one. Nevertheless, confusion abounds due to poor editing.

The holding the charge trick is interesting. I don't see any RAW reason why it wouldn't be allowed. The DM may not like it though.


How is the shrink item trick broken? That's practically what shrink item is for!

Actually the main purpose is to carry things. Irridisregardless, I couldn't find the ruling so it's totally up to interpretation and DM fiat. The main issue isn't shrink item here but falling object damage in general, which can quickly get out of hand.

Greenish
2010-02-23, 11:34 AM
IrridisregardlessWHAT. :smallfurious:

Fitz10019
2010-02-23, 12:21 PM
Reduce Person on the halfling rogue -> can no longer reach vital organs and therefore can't sneak attack. And has to enter enemy squares (therefore provoking) in order to attack.

This is a great one. Also note, I'm pretty sure that you can't flank when sharing space with your opponent. Flanking is basically defined as being on opposite sides.

deuxhero
2010-02-23, 12:28 PM
They both have equal priority, neither is more specific than the other.

"one type of magic item" seems more specific than "Magic items in general".

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-23, 12:38 PM
This is a great one. Also note, I'm pretty sure that you can't flank when sharing space with your opponent. Flanking is basically defined as being on opposite sides.

If the rogue has ranged weapons, you just improved his accuracy.

I've used Brilliant Aura before, from a Lich BBEG, to give all the party's weapons the Brilliant Energy enhancement. They had a bit more difficulty fighting undead hordes with that. Heck, one of them was rather put out that his Ghost Touch Greater Disruption weapon was taken out of the fight.

Masaioh
2010-02-23, 03:46 PM
This thread has taught me to never give Epic BBEGs any item made from any part of a dragon. After looking through ELH, I found out that Epic life spells can easily be given a one-round casting time and a long enough range. The DC amounts to something less than 40.

Of course, the DM could just say that the dragon died over 200 years ago.

Draz74
2010-02-23, 05:18 PM
I've used Brilliant Aura before, from a Lich BBEG, to give all the party's weapons the Brilliant Energy enhancement. They had a bit more difficulty fighting undead hordes with that. Heck, one of them was rather put out that his Ghost Touch Greater Disruption weapon was taken out of the fight.

Haha! That's genius. That's the sort of cleverness I was hoping for in this thread.

Reynard
2010-02-23, 06:37 PM
It may be expensive, but unseen servant + portable hole + bag of holding = RIFT IN TIME AND SPACE is useful for getting the BBEG out of the picture.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 06:43 PM
My powers revision has ferroplasmic armor, which allows you to hurl a glob of ectoplasm which hardens into an irregularly-shaped shell when it strikes another creature. Gives AC the equivalent of hide armor (augmentable for higher AC/lower max Dex/higher ACF/higher weight, or higher max Dex/lower ACF/lower weight). Usually used to protect allies. However, it works great against wizards, sorcerers, monks, anyone mobile, anybody without heavier armor proficiencies, and anyone already wearing really heavy armor already.

It's easily broken out of, but it's good for encumbering your opponent for a round or two. :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-02-23, 06:47 PM
It may be expensive, but unseen servant + portable hole + bag of holding = RIFT IN TIME AND SPACE is useful for getting the BBEG out of the picture.Unless said BBEG has a way of coming back from the Astral Plane. Even if he doesn't when you send him there, he might continue to grow in power and return stronger and angrier. :smalltongue:

Hecore
2010-02-23, 07:05 PM
While it admittedly requires a will save and has SR, Reach Spell MM + Plane Shift can be all sorts of fun.

"Tag, you're it" - Elemental Plane of Fire

ericgrau
2010-02-23, 07:06 PM
WHAT. :smallfurious:

LOL, it was intentional bad grammar, stolen from Strongbad. Thanks to you, I may add on a couple more prefixes next time. Btw, disregardless and irregardless are bad grammar too.


"one type of magic item" seems more specific than "Magic items in general".
That's a stretch. Maybe if it were one particular magic item, rather than some generality text found every single type of magic item there is. So what you're saying is that some magic items that have a spell have an activation time equal to the casting time of the spell, except every single type of magic item is an exception to this rule. :smallconfused:

Here's an explanation to help clarify things: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a

And I've subscribed to this thread in case I want to steal tricks in the future.

Slayn82
2010-02-23, 09:07 PM
Rope trick can be a pretty eficient attack/ambush spell. If you can manage to put heavy things inside the extradimensional space, like a bunch of rocks, and then lure the enemy under it and dispell it, well, everything inside falls. The large duration of the spell can pretty much turn it into an viable tactic for low level parties.

Levitation cheese is a good one too. With boots of levitation, and profession sailor, i once had a characther travel very fast, by using a mantle to make an sail/kite. Poor's man overland flight. Used to be better in 2nd edition, where non willing targets could be affected - a great killing spell at open spaces, albeit slow, not so good at castles and dungeons.

StoryKeeper
2010-02-24, 11:04 PM
Any food-conjuring spell as a distraction vs hungry animals.

Control Weather or similar weather-altering spells to make it rain on the rampaging fire elementals. Create water would work here as well.

Readied action plus short-range teleport spell like dimension door to cause bull-rushing or charging enemies to run into brick walls cartoon-style.

Warp wood on certain plant creatures or shield guardians.

Invisibility mass to make it difficult for the enemy to coordinate their attacks.

Live Oak + Iron Wood

Circle against your own alignment to shove yourself outside of your own circle. That is the one that shoves you out of the circle right?

Meld into stone... on a stone golem.

One of my personal favorites that I've actually used: Soften Stone into Clay when fighting heavy creatures causing them to sink into the clay, then harden the clay into stone again.

Modify Memory over and over for multiple sneak attacks. "Funny, this blood was leaking out of me a minute ago..."

Move Earth when the enemy is camping near a cliff edge, volcano, or similarly dangerous area. Just push them into the threats.

Zone of Silence VS sound-based enemies and enemies with sound-based attacks.

Water Walk to run up water elementals.

Use whatever you'd like to create a minitaure floating island. Conjure a tiny hut that uses that levitating blob of earth as "the ground." Drop on any enemy witches in the area.

I think most of those would work... ^^;