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View Full Version : [3.5] Two Role Caster Optimization.



Exthalion
2010-02-23, 12:47 AM
I am starting a new campaign where I will be the only caster. The other three players are a Human Fighter, a Warforged Psychic Warrior / Fighter, and a Kobold Rouge/Assassin.

This leaves me with the rather precarious position of hiding behind the meat shields, keeping everyone alive, and smiting.

We are starting at level 10, and we use spell points. 28 point buy.

I have read Logic Ninja's Guide and the Guide to being god, but both don't seem to be helpful in this circumstance. I suppose Mystic Theruge is a possibility, but I have been assured it is a trap.

We can use all the Wizard's of the Coast books that aren't setting specific (No FR or Eberon) and Dragon Magazine.

Does anybody have some suggestions for an optimized character?

Pluto
2010-02-23, 12:50 AM
What's wrong with a divine caster?

Any divine caster?

edit:
The Rogue's already PrC'ed into Assassin?

By that level, you should be able to buy healing pretty well. Just strap on the ol' Healing Belts, stock up on Wands of Lessor Vigor and scamper off into adventure, healer be damned.

A Wizard would be my first impluse.

Exthalion
2010-02-23, 12:55 AM
Thank you for your quick response. I personally dislike the flavor of divine casters. While if there is no other good option, I would be willing to play one, I would prefer one more like a wizard.

I am sorry if this is too big a caveat then I have no problem being divine though.

Edit: In response to your edit, I suppose the question then becomes a more general optimization. If that is the case, is there any way to take Cerebromancer or Ultimate Magus without affecting my high level spells?

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 12:56 AM
Archivist [HoH] can cover both, Cleric- and Wizard-casting rather effectively. Druid multitasks well too, though mostly thanks to being a beater or two as well. Druid-list is still a nice blend of efficient control, buffing & wreckage. But if you have melee, Druid stealing the show might not be appreciated. I suggest Archivist.

Alternatively, Wizard with Arcane Disciple to pick up the key Cleric-buffs and maybe Heal. UMD can cover Wands of Cure Light Wounds for healing. But Archivist is probably better for what you want. Just be savvy with the Domains and remember you can get Paladin/Ranger/Druid/Adept/company spells too and you should have access to most anything.

Exthalion
2010-02-23, 01:02 AM
Thank you also for your reply. May I ask what HoH stands for?

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 01:03 AM
Thank you also for your reply. May I ask what HoH stands for?

Heroes of Horror, book from where Archivist hails.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 01:04 AM
You could always try wizard/ur-priest2/mystic theurge, or even wizard/ur-priest/bard1/sublime chord/mystic theurge (if you can manage to fit it all in). Factotum 10/chameleon 10 might also fit the bill, if you grab yourself a few wands to fill the gaps until your chameleon casting kicks in. [/alliteration]

Exthalion
2010-02-23, 01:04 AM
Thank you, I don't know if I have that, but I will look.

Akal Saris
2010-02-23, 01:04 AM
I'd say go for cleric, archivist, druid, or artificer - all 4 can excel at both roles. Artificer is out due to book restrictions though.

Cleric: take 2 "blasty" domains like Storm and Weather or something, and if you can, use DMM: Quicken to quicken Heal spells, or persist a mass vigor spell for constant fast healing for the party. Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 7/Contemplative 10 for example,(needs C. Divine) or Cleric 5/Stormcaster 10/Contemplative 5 for a more blasty character (needs C. Divine and Stormwrack)

Archivist: learn the blasty and healing spells you want, cherry-picking from the cleric list, domains, and the druid list, and go to town. Archivist 7/Ruathar 3/Contemplative 10, for example. (Needs Heroes of Horror, Races of the Wild, and C. Divine)

Druid: Your pet is a "free" damage dealer, and then you can spend each round either healing/removing status effects, or doing blasting with lightning bolts and whatnot. Druid 20, for example.

Best of luck with the character!

Edit: Damn, ninja'd - sorry to hear that you don't like divine casters' flavor :P Archivists' flavor is basically arcane-styled (You delve deep into forgotten lore and secret horrors for your power), though, so you might still consider that.

Pluto
2010-02-23, 01:07 AM
You could do worse than an Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)/Hexer (Masters of the Wild)/Whatever.

Much worse.

edit:
Or a Savage Bard.
Even without Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord/Whatever, Unicorns and Cure spells make you a good battery for the party.
Dragonfire + Inspire Courage would just be silly in a fighter-heavy party.

Exthalion
2010-02-23, 01:19 AM
I have found Archivist. The only thing that worries me is the split focus with bonus spells being derived from wisdom instead of intelligence. I have never had to attributes to keep high before, will that be an issue?

gorfnab
2010-02-23, 01:25 AM
Blasting and Healing battery
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3 - You can blast all day long, you can take 10 on UMD making magic items very easy to use, you can wear armor, and if necessary you can tank (Eldritch Glaive + Divine Power), and it leaves you open for DMM possibilities. The downside is that your DM may not like it.

Exthalion
2010-02-23, 01:27 AM
Is that combination really good? He doesn't like multiclassing. Getting two base and a prestige out of him was hard. If that build has some great bonuses I would be willing to go for it though.

faceroll
2010-02-23, 01:40 AM
Is that combination really good? He doesn't like multiclassing. Getting two base and a prestige out of him was hard. If that build has some great bonuses I would be willing to go for it though.

Starting at level 10, yes, that multiclass thingy will work pretty ok. Thanks to fast spell progression of ur priest, you'll have 5th level cleric spells. You'll have small HD, fewer spells than a cleric, and pretty heavy feat requirements, so trying to Czilla will be hard. You'll make a decent caster, though. As the ONLY caster in the group, you won't be spectacular.

I would recommend focused specialist conjurer 1/spells-to-power erudite3/cerebremancer 6. It will be omgwtfbbq good.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 01:45 AM
I would recommend focused specialist conjurer 1/spells-to-power erudite3/cerebremancer 6. It will be omgwtfbbq good.Just make sure your character is LGBT and make sure glitterdust is your favorite spell...

...ride around on a My Little Hellpony (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm)...

...and cast all the flaming spheres you can eat.

...or, y'know...not.

It'd make for a memorable character, though. :smallbiggrin:

Exthalion
2010-02-23, 01:48 AM
Would that be a good progression then? Would the Cerebromancer levels along with the wizard basically mean I add my spellbook to my powers?

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 01:51 AM
Would that be a good progression then? Would the Cerebromancer levels along with the wizard basically mean I add my spellbook to my powers?Only if you're an erudite and spend the XP.

Psions don't normally get access to wizard spells, and vice versa.

Either go bog-standard wizard/psion/cerebremancer (early-entry tricks notwithstanding), or spell-to-power erudite.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 01:54 AM
I have found Archivist. The only thing that worries me is the split focus with bonus spells being derived from wisdom instead of intelligence. I have never had to attributes to keep high before, will that be an issue?

Not at all - An archivist has more base spell slots than even a specialist wizard. Feel free to dump wisdom and focus on Int, or rely on items to boost Wis if you really want some.

Or you can do it the other way around and focus on Wis, picking spells that don't have save DCs like buffs. But since Int synergizes with your Dark Knowledge and Wis doesn't, I'd go with the former method.

Draz74
2010-02-23, 02:02 AM
Simple suggestion: just play a straight Psion. It's not a divine caster, but it can still do well at buffing and healing. And it can cover the Wizard-ish role too.

It won't be as good in either role as the normal Tier 1 class for that role, but meh. It's still Tier 2.

Akal Saris
2010-02-23, 02:04 AM
Not at all - An archivist has more base spell slots than even a specialist wizard. Feel free to dump wisdom and focus on Int, or rely on items to boost Wis if you really want some.

Or you can do it the other way around and focus on Wis, picking spells that don't have save DCs like buffs. But since Int synergizes with your Dark Knowledge and Wis doesn't, I'd go with the former method.

Agreed on the stats.

For the character, go ahead and ask the DM about the warlock/ur-priest if it sounds interesting, but don't expect it to fly, given that ur-priest is one of the cheesiest PrCs out there - you'll have 9th level spells at level 14 or 15 with that build, for example. I'd have a backup character idea planned out beforehand.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 02:24 AM
Not at all - An archivist has more base spell slots than even a specialist wizard. Feel free to dump wisdom and focus on Int, or rely on items to boost Wis if you really want some.

Or you can do it the other way around and focus on Wis, picking spells that don't have save DCs like buffs. But since Int synergizes with your Dark Knowledge and Wis doesn't, I'd go with the former method.

Or use Owl's Insight (Spell Compendium) and suddenly have an awesome Wis without trying.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-23, 02:24 AM
I'll second Psion, or simply wizard/PrC, belts of healing, and convince the Rogue to get UMD and the right wands/scrolls for out of combat healbot activities.

With that group, buffing will go a long way, so if you do go wizard, I suggest being a Focused Specialist (CM) Transmuter. Master Specialist (CM), Mage of the Arcane Order (CA), Fatespinner (CA), Geometer (CA), Divine Oracle (CD), and of course Archmage, are all fun, easy-to-qualify PrCs that aren't loaded with cheese. A relatively straightforward build is Wizard 5/MotAO 7/Master Specialist 3/Archmage 5.

CA = Complete Arcane
CM = Complete Mage
CD = Complete Divine

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-23, 02:50 AM
Actually, I'mma gonna go out on a limb and suggest something a little... different

Okay, you're wanting to provide several key roles:

1) Healbot
2) Buff-o-matic
3) Battlefield Control
4) Artillery

That's a pretty tall order... good thing you came to the right place :smallbiggrin:

The solution you desire, my friend, is not in Mystic Theurge... but in Beguiler.

Oh, I can hear it now "How can a Beguiler heal?"

Well, two ways, really.

1) He's got UMD as a class skill, so wands and the like
2) The feat is called Arcane Disciple. Lets you add one domain onto your spells known list. And a Beguiler can cast from their spells known list spontaneously. So grab the Heal domain. You now spontaneously heal better than an out-of-the-book Cleric (because you can spontaneously toss Heal)

Battlefield Control... Beguilers have this in spades. Dude playing one right now completely shut down an encounter. Even better, not everything they do is Mind-Affecting. Slow is on their list, and several Shadow-type spells

Buff-Bot. Granted, perhaps not as strongly, but in a party with three beatsticks, Haste is going to make you their very bestest friend.

However, Arcane Disciple is only the band-aid. You want to be a Schrodinger's Cleric, only... yanno... not a cleric? It's called Rainbow Servant, my friend. And it puts every cleric spell on your spells known list. However, this combo comes very late in the game, which is why you do 'waste' a feat on Arcane Disciple.

Plus, you're a naturally sneaky sort of guy, who isn't likely to end up blasted into oblivion. Mostly because you've got things like Greater Mirror Image and Invisibility on your list. After all, buffing isn't an attack, now is it?

Godskook
2010-02-23, 02:54 AM
In-combat healing isn't a great plan to begin with, and a really bad plan for a class not built to do healing.

Non-combat healing can be done easily with only a minor gp investment. Read the guide for it, if you want. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29)

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-23, 04:34 AM
In-combat healing isn't a great plan to begin with, and a really bad plan for a class not built to do healing.

Non-combat healing can be done easily with only a minor gp investment. Read the guide for it, if you want. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29)

It *can* be quite necessary, however. For such cases, there is the ability to tack on most of the useful healing spells (like Heal) onto your spell list with the investment of a single feat. So, if necessary, you can do that too.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-23, 10:10 AM
If you're in a party of warforged (and undead), you can get away with not having a cleric, as a wizard can squeeze healing in by himself.

Also, research the vigor line of spells, and make a wand.

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 11:04 AM
I have found Archivist. The only thing that worries me is the split focus with bonus spells being derived from wisdom instead of intelligence. I have never had to attributes to keep high before, will that be an issue?

18 Int, 10-14 Wis. That's plenty. Honestly, as said, you've got plenty of bonus slots anyways. Eventually you'll get about ~+1 per level or so, but your class levels give you enough slots to get you by.