Argument for not nerfing Dervishes

[powerdemon]

My DM wants to remove the "Thousand Cuts" class feature from Dervish because It is "too powerful". He said name one class that can do that much damage in one round. I said Wizard/Sorc but he didn't seem convinced.

Can anyone else help me argue in keeping it as-is? He is a DM that is always open to differing opinions so I do have a chance in getting him to not change it.

[magic9mushroom]

My DM wants to remove the "Thousand Cuts" class feature from Dervish because It is "too powerful". He said name one class that can do that much damage in one round. I said Wizard/Sorc but he didn't seem convinced.

Can anyone else help me argue in keeping it as-is? He is a DM that is always open to differing opinions so I do have a chance in getting him to not change it.

Twinned Orb of Fire + Quickened Orb of Fire = 45d6. No save, touch attack, and they have to save vs. daze. Available by level 15, the level at which Thousand Cuts becomes available.

Point out to him that a Dervish usually cannot do anywhere near that much damage in a round, only gets limited use of the feature (1/day, isn't it), can't do it all to one enemy, and can't do any of the actually useful stuff a Wizard can other than damage. Damage is all they have, so let them have it.

[Boci]

What is the main source of damage for full BAB melee? Power attack. Can a dervish use that? No. So you've got a class that can once oer day mimic the damage of a barbarian charging with leap attack and shock trooper, but must spread the damage out between multiple opponents.

[Noodles2375]

Agreed with all previous posts. The key here is to remind him that hit points are set up such that unless you disable or kill someone, they are still 100% capable of killing you. Dealing a relatively small amount of damage to everyone in a room looks impressive if they are all red-shirts, but is comically bad if they are tough enough to not die to two hits from a non-power attacking wielding, likely low strength character.

Contrast this to a cleaving, power attacking, shock troopering Two Handed weapon user.

[Grumman]

My DM wants to remove the "Thousand Cuts" class feature from Dervish because It is "too powerful". He said name one class that can do that much damage in one round.

A melee character with a Belt of Battle.
A Warblade with Time Stands Still.
An Eternal Blade with Island in Time.


And that's just the non-spellcasting melee characters.

Perhaps point out that he's trying to take away the 1/day capstone ability of a specialised melee class.

[Boci]

So, 15th level barbarian/fighter. Charges, attacking at a minimum of +24 for 2d6 (base weapon) +45 (power attack extra damage) +9 (1.5 strength modifier) +1 (weapon enchantment). So thats an average of 62 damage, with the only sacrifice required that three feats are spent and that he remain in a full BAB class.
I have not accounted for:
1. Rage (a 15th level melee should be able to get a +6 modifier to strength without much effort)
2. Lion totem substitue to full attack at the end of a charge
3. Any abilities from a PrC
4. Any weapon enhancements beyond +1

Additionally, the feats he spent to pull this off also help him in other areas, mainly bull rushing, so he isn't even a 1 trick pony.

So by spending less resources, he can do more damage to a single opponent, with a a higher attack bonus, and have some other tricks up his sleave. All you get that he doesn't is a higher AC. Hardly sounds OP to me.

[deuxhero]

Batman/CoDzilla is the argument against any wish to nerf melee.

[Sinfire Titan]

Twinned Orb of Fire + Quickened Orb of Fire = 45d6. No save, touch attack, and they have to save vs. daze. Available by level 15, the level at which Thousand Cuts becomes available.

Point out to him that a Dervish usually cannot do anywhere near that much damage in a round, only gets limited use of the feature (1/day, isn't it), can't do it all to one enemy, and can't do any of the actually useful stuff a Wizard can other than damage. Damage is all they have, so let them have it.

That's rather tame...

Here OP, here's a solid argument:


Orc Fighter 4/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Frenzied Berserker 10. Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, and EWP: Spiked Chain or Meteor Hammer. Make your weapon valorous. Okay, so you get 6:1 returns on Power Attack, +10 Strength from Frenzy, and an extra attack while Frenzied. With a Valorous Weapon and Headlong Rush, you're doing triple charge damage, so at level 16 you're looking at 288 damage per hit from Power Attack, +21 damage from the extra strength, and you've got 5 attacks. All this whenever you charge. Very nice. If your strength when Raging (but before Frenzy) at this level was 35 (which is pretty reasonable) and your weapon was +5 (easy enough), you're looking at 5 attacks for around 400 damage per hit. Very impressive, and it will likely one hit kill any enemy... or party member.




I doubt the dervish is capable of dealing 400+ damage to a single enemy every attack.

[lord_khaine]

Here OP, here's a solid argument:


Quote:
Orc Fighter 4/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Frenzied Berserker 10. Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, and EWP: Spiked Chain or Meteor Hammer. Make your weapon valorous. Okay, so you get 6:1 returns on Power Attack, +10 Strength from Frenzy, and an extra attack while Frenzied. With a Valorous Weapon and Headlong Rush, you're doing triple charge damage, so at level 16 you're looking at 288 damage per hit from Power Attack, +21 damage from the extra strength, and you've got 5 attacks. All this whenever you charge. Very nice. If your strength when Raging (but before Frenzy) at this level was 35 (which is pretty reasonable) and your weapon was +5 (easy enough), you're looking at 5 attacks for around 400 damage per hit. Very impressive, and it will likely one hit kill any enemy... or party member.


I doubt the dervish is capable of dealing 400+ damage to a single enemy every attack.

Unfortunately, he was asking for a singel class feature, not a broken combo of feats.

To the OP, i suggest you compare the ability to a level 8 spell slot, since they come into place at the time the dervish get his ability, and then start by pointing out that you only get 1 daily use out of 1000 cuts, while you can easely start with 3 level 8 spellslots.

[magic9mushroom]

That's rather tame...

Here OP, here's a solid argument:






I doubt the dervish is capable of dealing 400+ damage to a single enemy every attack.

That's getting into serious optimisation, though, and the question was to show that a Sorcerer or Wizard could do that much.

And they can, with at least equal frequency, without cheese.

As I showed.

[Cyclocone]

Finger of Death. What's your hp again?

[Viletta Vadim]

Iaijutsu Master can dish out ridiculous amounts of damage considerably sooner. Particularly the dual-quickrazor type.

[Eldariel]

Unfortunately, he was asking for a singel class feature, not a broken combo of feats.

To the OP, i suggest you compare the ability to a level 8 spell slot, since they come into place at the time the dervish get his ability, and then start by pointing out that you only get 1 daily use out of 1000 cuts, while you can easely start with 3 level 8 spellslots.

Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack. There you go. Always active, insane damage and goes with the natural feats perfectly.

[Sinfire Titan]

Unfortunately, he was asking for a singel class feature, not a broken combo of feats.

What?

A Charger build is all it takes to make you knee-jerk? That's not even a full-fledged build at that, just bare-bones needed to prove a point.


Finger of Death. What's your hp again?

[/Thread]. Seriously, point your DM to the PHB and show him the broken stuff in there.


The dervish's capstone is comparable to a very wide-area damage spell that requires multiple attack rolls. It isn't likely to kill everyone in the area unless you get considerably lucky with crits or know how to optimize the damage output.

[truemane]

Basically, it looks like this to me:

1. You can only use it 1/day.
2. You still have to move 5 ft in between every attack, so although you can hit the same bad guy twice, you have to move in, attack, move away, attack someone else, swing back around. A very inefficient use of resources.
3. As someone else said, the power is very useful against a roomful of mooks the likes of which you could have taken without the ability. As a 1/day power, the temptation is to leave it until the BIG FIGHT at the end of the dungeon. But it's least useful against a low number of powerful foes. Unless one of them is insanely large. I have to admit it would be a pretty hardcore way to bust up a land-locked dragon.
4. You're using scimitars as light weapons. No power attack. So your damage output is actually very reasonable. And it has to be spread around so it's even less intimidating.
5. You have actually invested a fair amount of resources into the character at this point, in terms of skill points and feats and time and energy, and so it's not unreasonable for that high-cost specialization to pay off.
6. As someone else said, 8th level spells are far more destructive and that's what you're comparing against really.

If none of that works, nod your head sadly and make one of Sinfire Titan's 60,000,000,000 damage per attack Orc Lion Barbarian Thingie.

[Sinfire Titan]

If none of that works, nod your head sadly and make one of Sinfire Titan's 60,000,000,000 damage per attack Orc Lion Barbarian Thingie.

Since when was that my build? JaronK posted it (and it isn't even an original build, just something he knew about), I just quoted it. You make me sound like a bad guy here.

[Everyman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Thousand Cuts just double the number of attacks in one round? If so, I wouldn't exactly call it overpowered.

Let's try a build with only a little optimization...
Scout 4 / Ranger 2/ Dervish 10
Important Feats: Swift Hunter
I believe between class features and weapon enhancements, you should get at least 5 attacks in a round normally at that point. So that breaks down to 5 attacks with a rough total of 1d8 weapon damage + 2d6 skirmish damage + other misc. damage bonuses. I'm going to round that to about 20-25 pts of damage per successful attack (note the italics).

End result: 10 attacks with roughly 20-25 pts of damage: about 200-250 pts of damage in one round, assuming all attacks strike true. Which (and let's be honest about this) isn't likely to happen unless you're fighting enemies with lower-than-expected AC.

Wizard 16
Maximized Disintergrate: 2d6 damage per class level (effectively 12 pts per class level)

End result: 192 pts of damage with one successful ranged touch attack (or 30 pts with a successful save).

I don't know about you, but I think the Wizard has a much better change of seriously bringing the hurt.

EDIT: Correction. Meant to type "ranged touch attack" regarding the disintergrate spell. Fixed

[Yakk]

Single class Gnomish Paladin riding a Warpony mount.

Smite Evil, 15 points of power attack, Shock Trooper, Leap attack.

Damage: (1d8+105)*2 damage. Not counting strength, magic enhancements, etc -- just smite evil and power attack.

Can the warpony jump? At level 15, the Warpony has a move of 50' and a str of 19 (+4). It gains +8 HD, which (as a magical beast with animal skill advancement) gives it +8 skill points and 3 feats.

The warpony's jump check is +8 (skill)+4(str)+8(speed) = +20. Jumping 10 feet from a standing start is DC 20, so the warpony auto-succeeds at doing a jump-charge.

Is 220 damage using a non-magic lance, bog-standard class features from a core class, repeatable a number of times per day enough?

But wait! What if the target isn't evil?

Then this build only does 190 damage on a hit.

[truemane]

Since when was that my build? JaronK posted it (and it isn't even an original build, just something he knew about), I just quoted it. You make me sound like a bad guy here.

I don't think you're the bad guy. I thought your post was perfectly valid. Why bother to nerf the Dervish when there are far easier ways to be far more destructive, right?

And that's all I was saying. If, after hearing a series of valid arguments, the OP's DM still thinks Thousand Cuts is over-powered, then the OP should nod to himself and make something that actually IS over-powered.

That's all. Never said you were the bad guy. Quite the opposite, I was acknowledging the validity of your argument. I just exaggerated for comedic effect.

[DragoonWraith]

the OP should [...] make something that actually IS over-powered.
That's pretty much never a good answer. If the DM is unconvinced, ask for the opportunity to do a test battle demonstrating the fact, but don't do it in a real campaign.

Of course, at that point you're more likely to just get whatever you do also banned.

[Eldariel]

And honestly, it's once-per-day. Just point that out and it doesn't seem so amazing anymore. Frankly, I'm thinking it should be once per Dance; that'd keep it useful when you have an average number of encounters per day instead of being solely limited to Boss-fights.

But yeah, Dervish takes 4 rather weak feats to enter so it better get something good. That's another thing to point out. And third is, of course, the fact that two-handers still deal more damage on a daily basis.

[DragoonWraith]

They deal more damage even on the one round where you do get A Thousand Cuts.

[powerdemon]

Thanks for the overwhelming number of responses! I appreciate it.

[Albonor]

Simple raging core barbarian with full-attack and improved trip? Seriously?

Level 15: if you started at 16 in str you now have 19+item+6 from rage so at least +7 natural if we go reallllllllly conservative.

+10dmg to every hit then. You are hitting at +22 before ANYTHING else comes into play.

I guess you can afford to take a little penalty to that and still make your touch attack sooooo...let's put 5 points into power attack ok? You now have +17 to hit and +20 to damage.

You make your touch attack, you trip the guy (+11 to you score, seems reasonable) and THEN...you still full-attack for 2d6+20 three times at +21/+16/+11.

This is without weapon focus, any type of buff or magic items. Just a normal barbarian doing it's job. Just three feats and 16 of starting str.

Any buff valid for your dervish (if your DM is more concerned with the crazy of a fully-buffed party) is valid for that guy in a comparison.

Haste? Barby just dealt another 2d6+20. AND has a nother go at tripping if the first attempt failed

Heroism? Yes more hits by the dervish will count but a better garantee that the 2d6+22 will land...

Bull's str? Same a heroism but with an extra +1 to dmg.

And on and on.

And if the opponent has a type of DR you can't bypass? YOU just go at it until your extra damage does it in. The Dervish hits a lot for nothing.

If your basic core barbarian (with 13 in intel) is too OP for him then...sorry.

[T.G. Oskar]

A melee character with a Belt of Battle.
A Warblade with Time Stands Still.
An Eternal Blade with Island in Time.


And that's just the non-spellcasting melee characters.

Much Wisdom in this post.

The first is essentially allowing you a 1/day full round action which you can use on yet another full attack, which is exactly what the Dervish provides...at a much, much lower level, without the need to move. A Dervish, on the other hand, MUST move to gain the benefit, so it's not concentrate.

The Warblade (or really, any character with at least 4-5 Diamond Mind maneuvers and Initiator level 17) can do this at level 17...not exactly the level 15 you say. However, it's done once every two rounds. One using it, one to recover. And you can add a Swift Action ability to it, most likely either Raging Mongoose or Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip.

Eternal Blade is far more specialized, but it's even worse. A full round worth of actions for the cost of...a swift attack? And they get both Diamond Mind AND Initiator Levels to kick in? Well...I think you can say just how bad this is, even 1/encounter.

That's three options. That alone should tell you just how easy it is to counter A Thousand Cuts. Pouncing Charge attacks do more damage than A Thousand Cuts for less attacks; even a single combination of Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack (only the first and the last count, but the middle two are for reducing the penalty on BAB) deals more damage than the Dervish alone. You don't need to be a Barbarian to use it, but you should at least use Pounce for it. Just...show how easy it is to get Pounce.

If he still doesn't get it, then evidently he must be biased against melee. Show him something beside Batman, and you'll convince him. If he's not convinced anyways.

And...heck, if he's still not convinced, how about Greater Manyshot on a Skirmisher? Less of a hassle to get (just...Manyshot, which requires basically two good feats and the key ability to archery anyways), deals more damage than a Dervish, and from a distance. Or the clear winner: an invisible Rogue using splash weapons. Just...an invisible Rogue using splash weapons. Perhaps not exactly what he wants, but several different ways to say "you're going to remove the one redeeming thing from Dervish?"

[truemane]

That's pretty much never a good answer. If the DM is unconvinced, ask for the opportunity to do a test battle demonstrating the fact, but don't do it in a real campaign.

Of course, at that point you're more likely to just get whatever you do also banned.

Nonsense. D&D is an arms race. And if the DM tries to nerf you one way you do your best to sneak something even worse past him without him noticing. The more complicated the better.

Like a good chess strategy, the more elements involved in the build the better, because it becomes less likely that the DM is going to notice the way the various, seemingly unrelated parts fit together into one broken-uber-build whole.

Anyone who tells you different is a fluffy communal story-teller. Not a role-player. And no matter what you've heard, the two are completely and utterly mutually exclusive.

[/sarcasm]

Also, I was only joking. I thought the exaggerated number in the post would have indicated that. Clearly I was incorrect.

[Skaven]

My DM wants to remove the "Thousand Cuts" class feature from Dervish because It is "too powerful". He said name one class that can do that much damage in one round. I said Wizard/Sorc but he didn't seem convinced.

Can anyone else help me argue in keeping it as-is? He is a DM that is always open to differing opinions so I do have a chance in getting him to not change it.

Wizard/Sorc: Disintigrate. No cheese, no combo spells, basic metamagic, your choice.

Druid: Fire Seeds, tiny bomb seeds, put them in a pouch with 1gp for weight all together, they can be thrown.