(3.5) lycanthropy

[Goonthegoof]

If you're a lycanthrope and your type changes to monstrous humanoid for some reason (say a template) do you lose the lycanthropy?

[Sinfire Titan]

I believe this is where the Augmented Humanoid subtype comes into play. If the stacking is done right, you should retain the Lycanthrope template by virtue of your base race.

[ScionoftheVoid]

In general effects only check if you qualify when you recieve them. Otherwise you get things like the Dragon Disciple Revolving-Door-Trap (level 10 of the class disqualifies you so you don't get the ability and qualify again giving you the ability...). This is why template stacking works, you make sure it's in an order where you qualify from the previous step, though you can disqualify yourself later with no worries. So I don't think you would lose the lycanthropy.

TL;DR version: You're fine as long as you were humanoid or giant when you got lycanthropy.

[Goonthegoof]

New question: If you have increased unarmed damage through being a monk, does it apply if you're in hybrid form?

[Lyndworm]

Yes, it most certainly does.

[Sintanan]

New question: If you have increased unarmed damage through being a monk, does it apply if you're in hybrid form?

Yes, it most certainly does.

I'm curious why the hybrid damage would be increased by unarmed strike. The hybrid damage is based on size alone. Improved Natural Attack would work, but the monk's unarmed damage wouldn't increase the natural weapons of the hybrid form.

On the other hand, you can still do unarmed strikes while in hybrid form, as you retain all your class features unless specifically stated.

(Sorry I sound like I'm being harsh, not trying to be... just trying to clarify.)


Then again, this is all my own opinion as the lycanthrope rules aren't the clearest of things.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm curious why the hybrid damage would be increased by unarmed strike. The hybrid damage is based on size alone. Improved Natural Attack would work, but the monk's unarmed damage wouldn't increase the natural weapons of the hybrid form.

On the other hand, you can still do unarmed strikes while in hybrid form, as you retain all your class features unless specifically stated.

(Sorry I sound like I'm being harsh, not trying to be... just trying to clarify.)


Then again, this is all my own opinion as the lycanthrope rules aren't the clearest of things.Are you talking about unarmed strikes via the monk class, or natural attacks via being a lycanthrope in hybrid form?

Unarmed strikes are what it says on the tin table (improved by size, if applicable), and hybrid form natural attacks aren't affected at all by being a monk.

[BooNL]

Do as mentioned you can still do your unarmed attacks in the same sequence. Though the penalties for flurry apply to all attacks (including natural) that round.

So you might be looking at:
Unarmed attack -2/unarmed attack -2/unarmed attack -7/claw -2/claw -2/bite -7

The hybrid form's attacks are exactly like those of a creature. So improving them requires feats like Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack. Spells like Greater Might Wallop work, as well as initiator attacks from ToB. Incarnum has a class dedicated to Natural Attacks in the Totemist.

[Lyndworm]

I'm curious why the hybrid damage would be increased by unarmed strike. The hybrid damage is based on size alone. Improved Natural Attack would work, but the monk's unarmed damage wouldn't increase the natural weapons of the hybrid form.

On the other hand, you can still do unarmed strikes while in hybrid form, as you retain all your class features unless specifically stated.

As the post to which I was replying specifically stated Unarmed Strikes, I was also speaking of Unarmed Strikes and not Natural Attacks.

Technically, you can perform Unarmed Strikes even while in Beast form. Kung Fu Bear!

[KillianHawkeye]

So you might be looking at:
Unarmed attack -2/unarmed attack -2/unarmed attack -7/claw -7/claw -7/bite -7

Fixed that for you.

Whenever you combine iterative attacks with natural weapon attacks, all your natural weapons become secondary attacks and take the -5 penalty. I suggest taking Multiattack.

[Sophismata]

Natural attacks are not a Monk weapon. You may not flurry while using natural attacks.

[Sanguine]

Natural attacks are not a Monk weapon. You may not flurry while using natural attacks.

Now that's just wrong. Stupid RAW

[Sinfire Titan]

Now that's just wrong. Stupid RAW

Don't need to anyway. Rapidstrike or Totemist levels>>>Flurry of Blows.

[Sanguine]

Don't need to anyway. Rapidstrike or Totemist levels>>>Flurry of Blows.

I don't doubt you there but still it is stupid that Natural Attacks aren't compatible with Flurry of Blows.

[Sinfire Titan]

I don't doubt you there but still it is stupid that Natural Attacks aren't compatible with Flurry of Blows.

Well, you can do Monk 2/Totemist 2 and go:

Unarmed/Unarmed/Claw/Claw/Claw(/racial attacks, because you have at least one).

The penalties are massive though. -2 from Flurry on everything, and another -5 on all of the Claw attacks (since you're not using them as your primary attack). Multiattack makes the claw penalty -2. Improved MA removes the penalty outright.

[Voice of Reason]

I don't doubt you there but still it is stupid that Natural Attacks aren't compatible with Flurry of Blows.

If you don't like it, you can always take Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. Then merely convince your DM that your unarmed strikes count as Natural Attacks (which, in fact, they are), and all your unarmed strikes and natural attacks are at -0. The real trouble is in how many unarmed strikes as "natural attacks" one is entitled to. DMs will range from about 0 to your flurry of blows amount. You could make an argument for more (start naming body parts), but that isn't going to go over well.

[Yuki Akuma]

Now that's just wrong. Stupid RAW

What school of martial arts teaches you to use claws as special weapons?

(Tiger Claw Style. It ain't taught to Monks.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Unarmed Strikes aren't natural attacks because they require special training to be effective. Humanoids aren't born with martial arts skills, after all.

[Voice of Reason]

You could reason that, certainly, but by the book, they're unarmed attacks. Take, for example, the Improved Natural Attack feat (MM). WotC has acknowledged that it can be taken and applied to a monk's unarmed strikes to increase their damage (if you don't believe it, check out the Fanged Ring from Dragon Magic which specifically gives Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike). Note that this feat works only with natural attacks, and it works because of the wording on the monk's unarmed strike:


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

The prerequisite for the feat is, among other things, having a "natural weapon" which is affected by the increase. This places an unarmed strike as indisputably a natural attack for purposes of qualifying for feats. Likewise, you can take weapon finesse: unarmed strike, weapon focus: unarmed strike, etc.

Edit: Regarding the original intent of the thread, yes, I believe you ought to retain your lycanthropy.

[KillianHawkeye]

The prerequisite for the feat is, among other things, having a "natural weapon" which is affected by the increase. This places an unarmed strike as indisputably a natural attack for purposes of qualifying for feats. Likewise, you can take weapon finesse: unarmed strike, weapon focus: unarmed strike, etc.

That only establishes that the Monk's (and only the Monk's) unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon (and only for the purpose of spells, items, etc.). It still doesn't allow anyone (not even a Monk) to use their unarmed strikes in the same way as a creature with natural attacks.

By the rules, unarmed strikes may be part of your body, but they use the same mechanics as weapon attacks, not natural attacks. Functionally, they are weapons, even if you're a Monk. No, not even then.

[Yuki Akuma]

Monks can take feats that improve natural weapons and apply them to their unarmed strikes. That 'etc.' you put after "spells, items" includes feats.

Their unarmed strike is used as a manufactured weapon for iterative attack rules, but Improved Natural Attack has nothing to do with how you get extra attacks.

[KillianHawkeye]

Monks can take feats that improve natural weapons and apply them to their unarmed strikes. That 'etc.' you put after "spells, items" includes feats.

Their unarmed strike is used as a manufactured weapon for iterative attack rules, but Improved Natural Attack has nothing to do with how you get extra attacks.

Yes, but my point is that the same doesn't apply to non-Monks. And also that it doesn't allow anyone to use unarmed strikes as though they were natural attacks (as Voice of Reason stated earlier).