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Mr. Versipellis
2010-02-23, 03:32 PM
Hmmm, does anyone have a clue how come Dwarves are once of the stereotypical Cleric races? I mean, IIRC since 3e (might be earlier, I forgot) they've had a charisma penalty, which is pretty bad for a class that relies on CHR for abilities like turning... The constitution bonus is good but not specific to clerics and it isn't a favoured class. Any clues?

Lysander
2010-02-23, 03:38 PM
Are dwarves stereotypically clerics? They're usually portrayed as axe-wielding fighters.

I suppose dwarves seem very loyal and resolute. Being a cleric (at least a lawful good one) requires being loyal and resolute. So personality-wise it meshes.

hamishspence
2010-02-23, 03:40 PM
R. A. Salvatore's dwarvn clerics, despite tending to be LG, are still a little rowdy. Everyone else uses herbs and oils to make Holy Water.

the dwarven clerics, use hops.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-23, 03:40 PM
I think it stems from a few things.

1 the awsomeness of dwarves.
2 the fact that there holy water in alot of settings in Ale
3 the beardiness factor
4 in past editions clerics didn't need charisma
5 clerics are still uber even without any charisma or having penalties to charisma



/thread

Greenish
2010-02-23, 03:41 PM
Organized religion fits the dwarven fluff of very traditionalist and organized society. Dwarfs are also stereotypically solemn and serious, which are something people often connect to clerics.

Maybe.

Mongoose87
2010-02-23, 03:41 PM
Isn't there a subrace that has a penalty to Dex instead of Cha?

arguskos
2010-02-23, 03:41 PM
Are dwarves stereotypically clerics? They're usually portrayed as axe-wielding fighters.

I suppose dwarves seem very loyal and resolute. Being a cleric (at least a lawful good one) requires being loyal and resolute. So personality-wise it meshes.
Dwarves tend in the Forgotten Realms to be a fairly religious people as a rule (the Mordinsamman is a big part of this), so perhaps that's the OP's angle.

I have seen a lot of suggestions for dwarven clerics though, and I tend to agree. They are a strong race, Cha is not that vitally important to clerics (since Turning can be easily ignored if desired or can be boosted thanks to feats/items if wanted), and Cleric is pretty good over all. I wouldn't call them an ideal choice, but they're alright, that's for sure.

ub3r73k
2010-02-23, 03:43 PM
I think it's much more of a "battle priest" idea.

I played a dwarven cleric in a party one summer and he outlived 2 fighters and a paladin. Are dwarves the best option for one who wants the most out of the class? No. They do make really good self healing battlepriests with lots of flavor and character.

Thats my 2 copper

Greenish
2010-02-23, 03:45 PM
Isn't there a subrace that has a penalty to Dex instead of Cha?Yeah, Dream Dwarf, from Races of Stone.

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 03:50 PM
Dwarves are pretty much the anti-thesis to arcane magic, but given they're a race with their own patron god, and they're fairly devout to Moradin, Cleric is logical for them. Not only that, but every race needs casters or they just don't matter.

If you look through races, you'll find that every race without tendencies towards any other caster class (and are martial in outlook) tends towards Clerics. E.g. Orcs seem to commonly have Warrior of Gruumsh, and so do Goblins (for Maglubiyet). Kobolds, on the other hand, don't have common Clerics due to their Sorcerer-affinity and Elves between Wizards and Druids and Sorcerers and all their ridiculous magic-proficiency don't even need Clerics; Gnomes have Illusionists so they don't have that strong Clerical affinity and Halflings, on the other hand, do tend towards Clergy in absence of other pursuits.


But yeah, it seems to me like it stems from the following facts:
- Dwarves are martial, Clerics are the most martial caster
- Dwarves have an obvious deity
- Every race has casters and Dwarves don't have special affinities to any casting class. As such, Dwarves make for good Clerics (honestly, Turning is completely tertiary to Clerics and as such, Charisma-penalty has no real weight as far as Clericness goes) and lack the "standard racial caster" so they go for the dumpster so to speak; the caster-that-exists-for-any-race, Cleric.

Cieyrin
2010-02-23, 03:50 PM
Isn't there a subrace that has a penalty to Dex instead of Cha?

Dream Dwarves from Races of Stone, yeah. They make better druids than clerics but they work well enough, I suppose.

As for Dwarven Clerics, they can take a hit and keep healing their compatriots, which is more than can be said of Elven Clerics. Plus, Dwarven movement means they can wear heavy armor without worrying about slowing down as well, which fits with clerics as well. They just mesh fairly well together. I mean, look at Pathfinder Dwarves, they get get a Wisdom boost, which makes them even more apt as divine casters.

EDIT: Bah, ninja'd...

Greenish
2010-02-23, 03:53 PM
As for Dwarven Clerics, they can take a hit and keep healing their compatriots, which is more than can be said of Elven Clerics.Also, elves cause cancer.

Lysander
2010-02-23, 03:57 PM
Also, dwarves often wear heavy armor. Most casters other than cleric can't wear heavy armor.

Cieyrin
2010-02-23, 04:36 PM
Also, elves cause cancer.

I miss the D&D PSAs, as I haven't noticed any new ones of late. Either that or I just haven't noticed that YouTube has stopped making me aware of that particular subscription...

Touchy
2010-02-23, 05:07 PM
Also, dwarves often wear heavy armor. Most casters other than cleric can't wear heavy armor.

Isn't there a dwarven PrC class for Dwarven arcane casters so they can cast in heavy armor, using Runes.

I think it was called runecaster.

Cieyrin
2010-02-23, 05:16 PM
Isn't there a dwarven PrC class for Dwarven arcane casters so they can cast in heavy armor, using Runes.

I think it was called runecaster.

Runesmith from Races of Stone, actually. And it is quite awesome, as it replaces the somatic component with material components, the runes themselves, which doesn't cost anything, meaning they can be Eschewed. >=3

Superglucose
2010-02-23, 05:19 PM
Hmmm, does anyone have a clue how come Dwarves are once of the stereotypical Cleric races? I mean, IIRC since 3e (might be earlier, I forgot) they've had a charisma penalty, which is pretty bad for a class that relies on CHR for abilities like turning... The constitution bonus is good but not specific to clerics and it isn't a favoured class. Any clues?
Cleric doesn't even remotely rely on charisma. In fact, for most of my Cleric builds, I'd rather have a high con than a high charisma. The only thing a Cleric gets with high charisma is Turn Undead, which is useless in core and only useful so you can trade it for things out of core... in which case -1 isn't going to make much of a difference.

Con, on the other hand, boosts fort saves (deadliest of saves!), boosts HP (clerics are often front-line combatants), and boosts concentration checks (... spellcaster). Sure it's not as nice as, say, a dex penalty would be, but as stats go, Charisma isn't high on the list of things a cleric needs.

Cieyrin
2010-02-23, 05:25 PM
Cleric doesn't even remotely rely on charisma. In fact, for most of my Cleric builds, I'd rather have a high con than a high charisma. The only thing a Cleric gets with high charisma is Turn Undead, which is useless in core and only useful so you can trade it for things out of core... in which case -1 isn't going to make much of a difference.

Con, on the other hand, boosts fort saves (deadliest of saves!), boosts HP (clerics are often front-line combatants), and boosts concentration checks (... spellcaster). Sure it's not as nice as, say, a dex penalty would be, but as stats go, Charisma isn't high on the list of things a cleric needs.

Plus, most clerics bank on the number of uses, rather than actually turning anything, which is boosted by Extra Turning, Reliquary Holy Symbols and Nightsticks, anyways.

Shardan
2010-02-23, 06:23 PM
I think it falls into the clerics signature weapons. Classically maces and war hammers. And where there are war hammers, there are dwarves.

Add to that Clerics are armor wearing, which dwarves do and that Dwarves couldn't do arcane magic for the longest time so cleric or druid was their only magical choices. And dwarves just don't seem like tree-huggers.

Jarrick
2010-02-23, 08:39 PM
Isn't there a subrace that has a penalty to Dex instead of Cha?

Also, gold dwarves from Forgotten Realms

thorgrim29
2010-02-23, 08:54 PM
I miss the PSAs too, but the creators seem to have founds something better to do with their time (plus they kind of plateaued and then decreased in quality after the first 50 or so)

And yeah, dwarves are awesome, so are clerics, ergo dwarf clerics are doubly awesome. Plus if you can get your DM to replace Clanggedin's holy weapon with a dwarven waraxe, dwarf clerics of Clanggedin are triply awesome (tough not as awesome as my dwarf duskblade, for he is truly awesome)

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-23, 09:45 PM
How about the process of elimination? The whole "stubborn devoted followers" bit doesn't fit well for Barbarians unless you want to be a special butterfly that's an exception to the rule. Druids/Rangers were more in line to be foresty-type characters (take a look at the original set of Animal Companions, for example). Being a sneaky Rogue what picks locks and sneak attacks doesn't work too well while you're hootin' and hallerin' yourself drunk. Bard might work if all of your music is strictly presented as drinking songs, but otherwise you get a conflict on how Dwarves are usually perceived. Gnomes and Elves already have a monopoly on Arcane casting. so there goes Sorcerer and Wizard.

That leaves us with Paladin, Fighter, Monk, and Cleric. If a dwarf consumes his minimum necessary daily amount of spirits, he's going to fall three times in five minutes as a Paladin. Fighter would have been awesome, but someone had to give Humans a Bonus Feat and thus they synergize better with the whole lots of feats to choose from bit. Monk might not work out superficially until you meet Fistbeard Beardfist, however he's so super special awesome that he's gotta be unique. So, yeah, that sticks you with cleric.

Oh, and also :durkon:

Hurlbut
2010-02-23, 09:50 PM
Runesmith from Races of Stone, actually. And it is quite awesome, as it replaces the somatic component with material components, the runes themselves, which doesn't cost anything, meaning they can be Eschewed. >=3Well you only need something to smear or "mark" like through carving or scratching to form runes, so you actually doesn't need to eschew the runes.

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 09:55 PM
Fighter would have been awesome, but someone had to give Humans a Bonus Feat and thus they synergize better with the whole lots of feats to choose from bit.

Does not compute? Every feat means the next feat you pick is weaker (as you pick best feats/prerequisites first, obviously) so the more feats you have, the weaker each additional feat is.

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-23, 10:16 PM
I'm using the WotC definition of synergize. You know, the same people who think toughness is a good feat for all Wizards and Sorcerers.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-23, 10:20 PM
Dwarves are pretty much the anti-thesis to arcane magic,
<snip>

Am I the only one who thinks it is Ironic that by fluff the distrust arcane magic but otherwise they are very good wizards?
Bonus to CON, penalty to a "semi" dump stat, a good prestige class specially made for them, also their racial traits are good.

Lapak
2010-02-23, 10:22 PM
Another likely reason is that IIRC they had one of the highest level-limits for the Cleric class in 1st and 2nd edition.

Touchy
2010-02-23, 10:24 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it is Ironic that by fluff the distrust arcane magic but otherwise they are very good wizards?
Bonus to CON, penalty to a "semi" dump stat, a good prestige class specially made for them, also their racial traits are good.

Besides, anything an elf can do, a dwarf can do better and while being much more drunk.

Superglucose
2010-02-23, 10:39 PM
Besides, anything an elf can do, a dwarf can do better and while being much more drunk.
And since drunk = better...

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 10:43 PM
And since drunk = better...

Actually, Dwarves are pretty fail at actually getting drunk. +2 racial vs. Poisons and +2 Con means it'll take a lot on average for a Dwarf to tell booze from water. So they're good drinkers, but not-so-good drunkards.

Tar Palantir
2010-02-23, 10:51 PM
I think it falls into the clerics signature weapons. Classically maces and war hammers. And where there are war hammers, there are dwarves.

Actually, since dwarves get free proficiency with the Dwarven Waraxe, a better one-handed weapon than anything on the cleric list, dwarven clerics rarely use hammers.

The reason dwarves make such good clerics is the same reason they make good fighters: they only have two disadvantages (neither of which matters), and their benefits are universally spectacular. +2 on saves vs spells and poison, darkvision, stonecunning, +2 Con, some situational attack and AC boosts...it's quite nice. Just the Con and save bonus is equal to humans under many circumstances, IMHO.

Sophismata
2010-02-23, 11:13 PM
In earlier editions, Dwarves couldn't be arcane casters, and could advance further as clerics and fighters than other classes.

It was pretty much:

Halflings were thieves.
Humans were anything.
Elves were wizards, rangers, and sometimes thieves or druids.
Gnomes were illusionists and sometimes clerics.
Half-elves were like humans, but had a predilection towards bards.
Dwarves were clerics and fighters. (If you wanted to be a spellcasting dwarf, you had to either be a cleric or druid, and Elves were druids, ergo...)

Mongoose87
2010-02-23, 11:50 PM
I really don't get the way 1st and 2nd Edition did that. Why would longer-lived races be less capable of advancement?

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 11:53 PM
I really don't get the way 1st and 2nd Edition did that. Why would longer-lived races be less capable of advancement?

Humans had nothing else going on for them, so they decided to make Humans' shtick being "more ambituous, more versatile and with greater potential than others". Too bad they didn't just abolish Humans and make for a real fantasy world.

RebelRogue
2010-02-24, 12:40 AM
Actually, since dwarves get free proficiency with the Dwarven Waraxe, a better one-handed weapon than anything on the cleric list, dwarven clerics rarely use hammers.
They treat dwarven waraxes as martial weapons, which means that the average dwarven cleric is actually not proficient with them!

Hurlbut
2010-02-24, 12:45 AM
They treat dwarven waraxes as martial weapons, which means that the average dwarven cleric is actually not proficient with them!Correct, unless they have War Domain and their chosen deity's favored weapon is the dwarven waraxe. :smallcool:

RebelRogue
2010-02-24, 12:52 AM
I really don't get the way 1st and 2nd Edition did that. Why would longer-lived races be less capable of advancement?
It's actually from a "balance" perspective these are introduced: if they did not have these limits, the world would be overrun with high-level demihumans.


Correct, unless they have War Domain and their chosen deity's favored weapon is the dwarven waraxe. :smallcool:
Hence the use of the word "average". Even though dwarves are considered a martially inclined race, most of their clerics will lack the War Domain.

Starscream
2010-02-24, 01:11 AM
Actually, since dwarves get free proficiency with the Dwarven Waraxe, a better one-handed weapon than anything on the cleric list, dwarven clerics rarely use hammers.

Races of Stone includes a Dwarven Cleric substitution level specifically to rectify this. Trade in one 2nd level spell slot (peanuts in the long run) and get free proficiency with the Warhammer, a d10 HD for this level instead of d8, and an automatic +2 to all damage rolls with a Warhammer.

And the +2 is untyped, so it will stack with any enhancements you put on it. Well worth a single low level spell slot.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 07:45 AM
Hmmm, does anyone have a clue how come Dwarves are once of the stereotypical Cleric races? I mean, IIRC since 3e (might be earlier, I forgot) they've had a charisma penalty, which is pretty bad for a class that relies on CHR for abilities like turning... The constitution bonus is good but not specific to clerics and it isn't a favoured class. Any clues?

Con is good for every caster. Not just for HP, but for Concentration checks.

Concentration checks = keeping your actions. Actions > all for a caster (so long as he has spells left.)


Humans had nothing else going on for them, so they decided to make Humans' shtick being "more ambituous, more versatile and with greater potential than others". Too bad they didn't just abolish Humans and make for a real fantasy world.

NO U

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-24, 07:48 AM
Humans had nothing else going on for them, so they decided to make Humans' shtick being "more ambituous, more versatile and with greater potential than others". Too bad they didn't just abolish Humans and make for a real fantasy world.
>:C

Humans are short lived, yet they achieve much more than the long lived races because of it. They don't have a lot of time, so they use it.

Also: http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/04/04/episode-681-of-civilizations/

Sipex
2010-02-24, 10:13 AM
I play 4e so dwarves make amazing battle clerics with their WIS and CON bonuses. Also, the 'not hindered by heavy armor' thing and their other racial bonuses tend to work well with clerics too.

Zen Master
2010-02-24, 10:18 AM
the dwarven clerics, use hops.

Hops is totally an herb! =)

Roderick_BR
2010-02-24, 10:57 AM
Yeah, Dream Dwarf, from Races of Stone.
And Gold Dwarf from Forgotten Realms.

I think dwarves are typical clerics because:
1) The loyalty thing is strong in both dwarves and clerics.
2) They needed another race other than human, and dwarf fits better than the other core playable races.
3) In classic scenarios, dwarves doesn't use/trust arcane magic, so they turn to divine magic, making dwarven clerics pretty common.
4) They gain a lot of bonuses for battle priest styled clerics, and almost no penalty (-2 to cha is not that important, and most clerics are not runners, so the small speed doesn't hurt them either, and since 3.5, they can keep up with heavily armored humans).

Really, other than human (that often represents better knights and paladins), who else you'd put as a cleric?

krossbow
2010-02-24, 06:32 PM
If a dwarf consumes his minimum necessary daily amount of spirits, he's going to fall three times in five minutes as a Paladin.



Drunk =/= evil acts in D&D! (especially if your god promotes drinking)

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-24, 08:29 PM
Hmmm, does anyone have a clue how come Dwarves are once of the stereotypical Cleric races?
The stereotypical battle cleric wears heavy armor, uses a blunt one-handed weapon and shield, and is the Lawful Good holy warrior of a Lawful Good god. So... Heavy armor. Warhammer. Lawful Good. Warrior. Moradin. DWARF. Dwarf dwarf dwarf.

What else would you choose as the iconic Cleric race after human? What else would you choose as the iconic dwarven class after Fighter? I agree with everything that everyone else has already said, pretty much.

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-24, 10:40 PM
Drunk =/= evil acts in D&D! (especially if your god promotes drinking)
I didn't mean to imply that boozing it up is an evil act in D&D. After all, in heaven, there is no beer, and that's why we have it here.*

However, it is much easier to convince Mr. Lawful Good to slaughter five orphanages without using Mindrape if that paladin has trouble counting the number of fingers in the alphabet.

*Disclaimer: Drink responsibly, don't booze it up. Don't drink if you're under the legal age in wherever you live, pregnant, and/or have health issues.