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BRC
2010-02-23, 06:41 PM
I tend to find myself avoiding killing off my Players (I think it's happened exactly twice in a campaign I was running, and one of those times it was because the player stumbled, alone, into a fight I'd intended for the entire party.) Some DM's say this is right, other's say this is wrong. For the sake of simplicity, I'll make a sliding scale.
This is for general RPG's, discussing games like Paranoia as a standard example of how DM's should act is treason.
KILL EM ALL!: PC should equal Posthumous Corpse. This isn't just having the enemies fight smart, this is about building the adventure with the intent of killing the PC's off. The Rogue and Caster heavy party gets hit wit ha Golem. The Fighter-heavy party goes up against strength-sapping ghosts. Goblin rogues pop out of holes and sink their daggers into soft PC flesh, then collapse the ceilings. All enemies with less than 4 HD get the Spellwarped template, and the wizard will never get a full 8 hours of rest.
Bottom Line: The Kill Em All DM views dead PC's as a goal to strive for.
No Mercy: This isn't Kill Em All. This is less "The universe is setting up events to kill you" and more "The enemies are trying to kill you". The No Mercy DM realizes that enemies will want to kill the PC's, and has them use effective tactics to maximize the chances of that occuring. Now this dosn't mean that if you're not a No Mercy DM,you must be fighting stupid, the No Mercy DM is just bringing the tactics past what is expected of NPC's, or use monsters they know to be under-CR'd.
Bottom Line: The No Mercy DM views a PC surviving as a privilege, not a right.
One foot in the grave, one foot on the ground: The inevitable middle ground. a One Foot in the Grave DM runs the game without intentionally trying to kill the PC's, but won't nudge things to stop them dying.
Bottom Line: Dosn't care one way or another.
Lo, for I am Merciful: I fall into this catagory. In battle, the Merciful DM tries to avoid killing players. Enemies rarely focus their fire on the squishiest party member, a PC in negatives will be ignored rather than finished off, the DM conveniently Forgets about a monster's DR or Fast Heal on occasion (Mind you, I usually do this to speed things along, I have a habit of making my battles last too long). The DM isn't totally unwilling to kill you, but they are actively trying to avoid it. This is especially true when the PC's don't have easy access to Raise Dead spells.
Bottom Line: Will try to avoid PC death, but is not dedicated to preventing it.
Fire the Gravedigger: This DM absolutally, will NOT let their PC's die. A TPK'd party will be taken prisoner and put in an easily escapable jail cell with their gear in a poorly locked chest across the room, or a wandering party of adventurers will show up, save them, heal them, and leave. Now this dosn't mean the PC's will always Win, it just means that actual PC death will not occur.
Bottom Line: Will not kill off their PC's.

DMfromTheAbyss
2010-02-23, 06:53 PM
I'd place myself approximately in the middle.. though I do tend to slip between "No mercy" and "Lo For I am Merciful" depending on the fight, enemies intelligence and general plot relevance of the fight... becouse dying to the villain is much less a letdown than dying to the random encounter that wasn't supposed to actually be much of a threat.

bosssmiley
2010-02-23, 06:59 PM
I tend to find myself avoiding killing off my Players (I think it's happened exactly twice in a campaign I was running, and one of those times it was because the player stumbled, alone, into a fight I'd intended for the entire party.)

Now that is a tough DM. Killing one player may be considered an accident, two though... :smallwink:


No Mercy: This isn't Kill Em All. This is less "The universe is setting up events to kill you" and more "The enemies are trying to kill you". The No Mercy DM realizes that enemies will want to kill the PC's, and has them use effective tactics to maximize the chances of that occurring.

I try to be this. It's the responsibility of the player to keep their character alive. I'm just an impartial judge who adjudicates the calamitous cascades of catastrophe initiated by player action. (yeah, right :smallamused: )

jiriku
2010-02-23, 07:00 PM
No Mercy, I say! As a player, it definitely spoils my fun when I realize that the DM is pulling punches to prevent me from losing, so as a DM, I never do it. Now, I have an honor code with my players that a single bad dice roll should not kill a character, so I avoid monsters with SoD abilities, but my NPCs are always well-twinked, they make full use of the environment and their own abilities, and utilize tactics appropriate to their Intelligence scores and natures.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-23, 07:01 PM
I'd also say middle ground, though I'd like to point out that you keep referring to player death. Now, I've got no say in what goes on at your tables, but if you find players dying during your gaming sessions to be a common thing, you might just be doing it wrong... :smalltongue:

d13
2010-02-23, 07:03 PM
I think I tend to be more in the No Mercy side of things, occasionally slipping into the One Foot ground...


I'd also say middle ground, though I'd like to point out that you keep referring to player death. Now, I've got no say in what goes on at your tables, but if you find players dying during your gaming sessions to be a common thing, you might just be doing it wrong... :smalltongue:

*Calls 911*

Artemiz
2010-02-23, 07:03 PM
I find that it's generally a good idea to write the adventure's encounters with the difficulty level you think is appropriate, and then change the difficulty on the fly. You could make an encounter easier mid-fight by having some enemies get confused and flee, or perhaps an environmental issue kills a few off (ceiling collapse, etc.). Encounters could easily be made more difficult: just have more enemies arrive, reveal that a few of the baddies have a special power or spellcasting abilities, or the like.:xykon:

Frozen_Feet
2010-02-23, 07:03 PM
I'm mainly One foot in the grave kind of DM. I never actively try to kill my players and if they're roleplaying really well, can even show mercy - but I won't fudge dice for their benefit and if they act dumb they will get what they deserve. It's almost a running gag in our group that whenever I'm the DM, the PCs will end up enlisted in army and in jail, not necessarily in this order. What can I say, they brought it upon themselves.

Hyozo
2010-02-23, 07:09 PM
This is for general RPG's, discussing games like Paranoia as a standard example of how DM's should act is treason.

How do you know? Have you read Paranoia's suggestions on how a DM is to act? Isn't that treason?
:smalltongue:

I try to be One foot in the grave, one foot on the ground, but I often veer off toward No Mercy. What makes this more striking is that my group claims I am incapable of killing PCs, and says that of the four PC deaths in my last campaign:
-One was the result of another PC's fireball
-One didn't actually die, and their exit from the campaign was only because the character (same one as above) didn't even try to resist the dragon's grapple, and the rest of the party didn't give follow the dragon when it flew away.
-One was triple 20s and, therefore, pure (un-)luck.
-One was because they forgot to heal her, and they were able to raise her right away so it doesn't count.

Interestingly, the half-dragon son of the second on the list almost provoked the rest of the party into killing him this past Saturday.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-23, 07:10 PM
I usually have the enemy NPCs out to kill the players, but not always to the best their abilities allow. I try to take into account their intelligence and wisddom, so a smart creature fights with more tactics than a dumb one. Death is definitely a possible outcome for characters when I DM, but I try not to kill anyone (or at least let them be rezzed without too much difficulty) unless they do something stupid.

pres_man
2010-02-23, 07:12 PM
One foot in the grave, one foot on the ground: The inevitable middle ground. a One Foot in the Grave DM runs the game without intentionally trying to kill the PC's, but won't nudge things to stop them dying.

This is where I would probably fall (I'd rename it "Letting the dice fall"). I've just dropped 3 out of 5 PCs in the span of two sessions. Two were pretty unlucky, the third was a nasty module situation. I felt pretty bad, but that's how things rolled out. I think I had only killed one PC up to that point (started at 1st level and now they are 5th).

Individual Death Details:

2 sessions ago:
Rogue tries to tumble through a ghoul's square.
The party has had no trouble with the ghouls up to this point, aren't getting hit and are hitting them easily.
Rogue fails her check.
Ghoul hits with its AoO.
Rogue fails her fort save and is paralyized.
Cleric decides to try and hit the squishy ghoul instead of turn it (we are using the variant turning rules).
Cleric misses.
I, the DM, roll a d20 to see how the ghoul will act, high and he's really mean, low and he's really nice/stupid. I roll a 20.
Ghoul coup-de-graces the rogue, the rogue fails her fort save, dead.

Last session:
Orc barbarian gets hit with an effect that makes him hate nearest female character (failed Will save against it).
One shots the female druid (new character of the rogue's player, see above) into unconsciousness.
Warlock bluffs the barbarian that she is dead.
Effect says if there is no target, then the person attacks themselves.
Barbarian starts hacking into himself and others that try to stop him.
Warlock decides to cast blast at a lower level, only rolling 1d6 instead of 2d6 of damage.
Orc ends up at 3 hps right before his turn, power attacks himself and kills himself out right.

Human knight gets hit with an effect (failed will save against it), that makes him want to commit suicide. He takes a sharp stick (treat as a makeshift dagger), and coup-de-graces himself. Fails the fort save and dies.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-23, 07:15 PM
Now that is a tough DM. Killing one player may be considered an accident, two though... :smallwink:


Um, you do mean characters...players are the people playing them... killing players is illegal in most states and Canada (I'd hope outside of US as well).

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-23, 07:15 PM
I play enemies realistically. Ruthlessly. I don't, however, metagame the CR system, or play enemies past their stated Int level, as your "No Mercy" DM seems to.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-23, 07:17 PM
My philosophy is that I have put the NPCs and monsters in the world and telegraphed their power levels/capabilities/etc. well enough to the PCs; if they do something stupid and end up dying, I'm not going to save them. I'm not going to go out of my way to kill them, or use exceptional tactics for stupid monsters, or do anything arbitrary like that, but I build things to the power level of the PCs and don't pull punches.

If the PCs waltz into an enemy base that they know is the personal facility of the enemy's extremely-powerful obviously-templated-and-grafted artificer/necromancer, end up accidentally running into this extremely-powerful necromancer, and subsequently decide that a full-out assault on said extremely-powerful necromancer on his home turf--while he's buffed up and ready to experiment on with powerful subjects--is the best idea*, they're going to get their asses handed to them if they don't retreat after their first assault doesn't even scratch him.

*Actually happened last campaign; even after I said "What part of 'you're level 5 and this is the BBEG' don't you understand!?" they went ahead with it....

StoryKeeper
2010-02-23, 07:26 PM
I usually just tailor the outcome to the situation. For instance, when we were trying out 4th edition (they didn't like it enough to stick o it :P), I accidentally used too many goblins and wound up dropping both of my players below 0 hit points. Rather than saying "sorry, those guys are dead," I simply had them wake up tied up and without their weapons. The goblins had decided to eat them or sacrifice them to Meglubyet or something like that. I didn't want them dying to the random, fairly unimportant adventure just because I misjudged what they could do.

Side Note:
Just because the book says that you die at -10 hp (or whatever the number happens to be), it doesn't mean you HAVE to have the character die. You could simply say that they are knocked out to the point that even magical healing won't wake them up until they've had a good, long rest. Plus, this allows you to have the PC's be captured by villains who use fire balls rather than enemies that specialize is non-lethal tactics just so that you can set up that prison scene.

Back to the main topic, I usually try to know my players when it comes to stuff like this. One guy might be fine with his characters dying at the drop of a hat because he likes being able to try out different characters often. Another guy (and this describes me) would be fine with dying BUT ONLY if he dies at a certain character's hands or as part of an epic moment (surely Gandalf's player didn't mind his character dying in a fight with the Balrog... but then again he did come back later with all the XP that comes from fighting mono on mono with a Balrog to boot...ahem, back to the topic at hand.) Other players might not want to ever die under any circumstances, and that's fine so long as the DM can roll with that. And then there's my buddy who was burned alive by a pyro hydra while hiding amid a bunch of corpses and actually wanted to die, but that's a different topic.

It all just depends on the situation in the game and how the players feel. Remember, it's all about what's fun. If players have different ideas about what method of handling death is "fun", then I'll try to adapt to all of them as best I can.

AtopTheMountain
2010-02-23, 07:32 PM
I rarely DM, but when I do, I like to do the following to slightly decrease player deaths: When a character would be reduced to less than 0 HP by damage, I secretly roll a D20. If I roll a number divisible by 3, then I fudge the roll or whatever to save his life. Otherwise I'm a No Mercy DM.

This rule is excepted whenever the player is going to be killed because of obviously bad decisions, like a fighter in full plate trying to leap a 25-foot pool of lava or acid to reach a ledge to kill someone when there's bridges over to the sides, even though they have enemies on them.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-23, 07:39 PM
I only really coddle them when I know that it's my fault that the players are going to die. When the highest attack bonus the players have is +5, and the cleric has an AC of 25, I go easy. I do however occasionally buff up hard fights when the party is breezing. Wizards are casting spontaneously, the barbarian actually had 10 more HP, ect. Not every fight, but ones that are supposed to matter.

I also tend to have the creatures go for the stronger player a lot though. And not just power wise, they will go for the charcter with higher hp, to try and balance it a bit.

ForzaFiori
2010-02-23, 07:51 PM
The few times I've DM'd, I try to be a One Foot In... DM. I'm not gonna go out there and look for ways to make my players hate me, but I don't treat them like babies either. The exceptions are player stupidity (I'll let someone off for one or two stupid moves, but do it enough, and i'm gonna let you jump off the cliff.) where I may even go out of my way to kill off someone who is bringing the game down, and its inverse, DM stupidity (If I mess up and make a fight obviously too hard, or forget something about a creature that makes it uber effective, I'll fudge some, at least to let the PC's get out)

Dairun Cates
2010-02-23, 07:53 PM
I avoid killing my players. I encourage them to think about their characters and really get into it. It can suck if your character dies because of some randomly good roll or some mundane method. Character death generally should be memorable.

Let's be honest here. CR's are kinda broken. Some monsters of an appropriate CR are way too easy and some are way too hard. I even knew a GM that threw a wizard at the party that had exactly the right spells prepared to destroy the party unless every party member could make 3 straight saves. Doesn't particularly seem fair. There's no reason the wizard should have had those EXACT spells prepared. When they actually beat it because they GM cut them a SLIGHT break and let them have a second save out of the incredibly broken spell he was using, the GM gave them a very small exp reward. Why? Because it was only level 17 wizard and they were a level 16 party.

That's an extreme scenario though. So, why do I bring it up? Well, it makes a point. As a GM, at any given point, you have the means to kill your players easily. It is, in no way, a challenge, even keeping within the expected CR limits. Short of doing something like Tomb of Horrors where the point is to see how far the party survives, there's really no reason to just wave your hand to kill the party. Rocks fall, everyone dies isn't fun for anyone except maybe the sadistic GM.

I also generally have a problem with trying to be too challenging. Not all of my players are power-gamers, and the ones that are have learned to tone it down. Not everyone can or WANTS to play a character of optimized build #17. When you put the difficulty up where an optimized build is required, everyone needs to play up there. This works for some groups, but in any group with varied experience levels, this means that the big optimizers will ultimately over-shadow the other players and make them feel useless.

So yeah. I'm a bit easy on my players. They work hard on their characters, and they deserve a suitably interesting death if they have to.

Also, this discussion seems to instantly assume that you'll be playing D&D where a ressurection or raise dead spell is just around the corner if a player wants to get back up after a certain level. The vast majority of systems I run don't have such luck. Once you're dead, you're dead for good. No one's coming back from the dead without Deus Ex Machina. In system's like this, challenging the players can often feel mean-spirited.

Honestly, my big problem with D&D death has always been the level loss. I have no problem with a character dying to a monster, but having the player fall behind the other players because of it always seemed harsh. After all, half the time, it's the front line party members that die, not the squishy ones. It's not the fighter or Barbarian's fault that they took 100 damage from the dragon because the Wizard botched their spell to finish it off. Someone has to hold the line, and playing that character is likely to end with you punished with no extra reward. This isn't a competition to be the best. It's a social game. No one should have to suffer because they didn't choose to play X party role first.

Bit of rambling there, but that's my 2 cents.

Dragero
2010-02-23, 08:04 PM
During levels 1-4, I`m "One foot in the grave...." I don`t like to kill young partys.

Levels 5 and up I'm No mercy :P

arguskos
2010-02-23, 08:16 PM
I am definitely a No Mercy. I don't directly brutalize my players, but I don't pull punches. If a monster is attacking a player, and that player drops to negatives, and the monster likes eating fresh kills... well, they're gonna get munched on, cause the damn thing is likely hungry. If against NPCs, they WILL focus fire to drop their foes, since that's the best way to end encounters (this assumes an Int score of 11+). Intelligent monsters are brutal, using clever tactics when it's important. Enemy spellcasters bring good loadouts and use then in smart ways. They have NPC gear that is mildly optimized for their needs, etc.

Basically, I use practical optimization as a general rule, and encourage my players to do the same. I don't pull punches for any reason, and they all know it. If they die due to assuming I'll let them live or I'll be nice when it's unwarranted, they're fools, and they've been warned as such.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-23, 08:36 PM
During levels 1-4, I`m "One foot in the grave...." I don`t like to kill young partys.

Levels 5 and up I'm No mercy :P

+1, it just feels like such a waste and is far too easy for PCs to die at early levels, especially one or two.

Dairun Cates
2010-02-23, 08:44 PM
If a monster is attacking a player, and that player drops to negatives, and the monster likes eating fresh kills... well, they're gonna get munched on, cause the damn thing is likely hungry.

I'm not sure this is entirely true as you put it.

Under that logic, either your encounters are well below player CR, you play very low level games, or your frontline characters die almost every encounter. Half the CR appropriate monsters in the monster manual past level 4 are designed to knock out 1 player a round (the other ones are either weak or designed to kill the entire party simultaneously with some genetic trick). So, unless your players can kill the monster in 2 turn, there's a dead party member every encounter.

arguskos
2010-02-23, 08:52 PM
I'm not sure this is entirely true as you put it.

Under that logic, either your encounters are well below player CR, you play very low level games, or your frontline characters die almost every encounter. Half the CR appropriate monsters in the monster manual past level 4 are designed to knock out 1 player a round (the other ones are either weak or designed to kill the entire party simultaneously with some genetic trick). So, unless your players can kill the monster in 2 turn, there's a dead party member every encounter.
Eh, if they're really putting the hurt on, it'll try and scare other dudes off to eat in peace. Remember, we're dealing with an animal-level intelligence critter here, it wants to eat it's food in peace. No demon will do this, they'll spread around the pain. No devil will do this, he'll kill efficiently and quickly, then torture the unconscious. Now, a creature like the Voor? A top predator? A Dinosaur? They'll target one character, knock them dead or unconscious, try and scare off others, and drag their meal away to eat. This doesn't ever happen though, because the other PCs will just force it to fight by not fleeing, and thus no one gets eaten.

However, yes, I have had players die to something like that. They were attacked by a Famine Spirit, who knocked a PC unconscious and then ate him next turn. Why? Because that what the damn thing does! It eats people.

Also, yes, my combats are sometimes 2 turns, especially against solo bruisers that use this tactic, since there's a whole party against a solo bruiser, he's not gonna live too long. :smallamused: And I plan for that.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-23, 08:53 PM
I'm not sure this is entirely true as you put it.

Under that logic, either your encounters are well below player CR, you play very low level games, or your frontline characters die almost every encounter. Half the CR appropriate monsters in the monster manual past level 4 are designed to knock out 1 player a round (the other ones are either weak or designed to kill the entire party simultaneously with some genetic trick). So, unless your players can kill the monster in 2 turn, there's a dead party member every encounter.

That is also one really stupid monster. Who stops in the middle of fighting to eat?

Fighter: Ha, take that, vile beast!
Orc: Ug, ug, Gromsh smash you!
*ding ding ding*
Fighter: Ah, tea time, perfect! I was just getting hungry! Pulls out portable table and tea set
Orc: Uh, should Gromsh come back at better time?
Fighter: Nonsense! Sit down, there's plenty for everyone.

And they all lived happily ever after...

EDIT: Oh come on, you ruined my fun :smallfrown:

The Dark Fiddler
2010-02-23, 08:54 PM
I try to keep my players alive, within reason. Enemies know that if one member of the party is down (negatives) and there is no easy way for the healer to get to them (if there even is one... my players all want to play glory hogging fighters) it's a waste of time to kill them until after the battle. Or, that's what I'll say.

Of course, if the Wizard has the bright idea of charging into the middle of a crowd, and the enemies kill him with their AoO's... then it's his own damn fault.

valadil
2010-02-23, 08:58 PM
I'm pretty merciful when it comes to this sort of thing. I've only killed PCs twice that I can remember. Either the game was ending or the player was leaving, so both were expected deaths.

I do it this way because my games are focused on story more than anything else. I get attached to the characters that are involved and I want to see them succeed, or at least resolve. If I ran a rotating door style game where characters swapped in and out every week I'd get bored of the game and stop running it.

Noedig
2010-02-23, 09:15 PM
My DM is mostly No Mercy, but he has a splash of Lo for I am merciful. He allows us 2 Fate points (similar to Karma in Shadowrun 3e) that we can choose to burn at anytime in order to avoid death. Once burned they never come back. You only ever get two. This is sort of his way of keeping the players from killing themselves with intense stupidity.
As an example, I started a bar fight when I tried to tip the odds of a wager in my favour. I calmly dimension door'd away. The DM declared this a **** move and dropped me off in front of two barbed devils. I was forced to spend a fate point or get bent over and murdered.

arguskos
2010-02-23, 09:19 PM
My DM is mostly No Mercy, but he has a splash of Lo for I am merciful. He allows us 2 Fate points (similar to Karma in Shadowrun 3e) that we can choose to burn at anytime in order to avoid death. Once burned they never come back. You only ever get two. This is sort of his way of keeping the players from killing themselves with intense stupidity.
As an example, I started a bar fight when I tried to tip the odds of a wager in my favour. I calmly dimension door'd away. The DM declared this a **** move and dropped me off in front of two barbed devils. I was forced to spend a fate point or get bent over and murdered.
...you legally escaped from a bad situation... and he screwed you? Forcing you to use a Fiat Card to get out of the situation?? I question his judgment on that one, just sayin'.

Also, Tinydwarfman, sorry to ruin your fun buddy. However, I've done that before. My party was fighting a very suave and civilized Aristocrat, and halfway through the fight, this bell rings. He perks up, lowers his blade, and asks if they'd like to join him for afternoon tea. The party was surprised, to say the least. They eventually did join him, after much bickering, and over the course of that tea and biscuits, they actually ended up allying with the Aristocrat!

Dairun Cates
2010-02-23, 09:22 PM
...you legally escaped from a bad situation... and he screwed you? Forcing you to use a Fiat Card to get out of the situation?? I question his judgment on that one, just sayin'.


Yeah... Pretty much this. It seems a bit off to GM fiat you to death and then say that you have to spend something that's limited to escape it. He always could have made you wanted in the city later instead. The punishment is totally unfitting in this case.

Tanaric
2010-02-23, 09:23 PM
As an example, I started a bar fight when I tried to tip the odds of a wager in my favour. I calmly dimension door'd away. The DM declared this a **** move and dropped me off in front of two barbed devils. I was forced to spend a fate point or get bent over and murdered.

...thou shalt not use spells?

I mean, really, what? You use a perfectly legitimate method of escaping from a bad situation, only to find out that there just happened to be a pair of barbed devils waiting for you right outside, because the DM didn't want you to?

If you say so.

Knaight
2010-02-23, 09:29 PM
Lo! For I am Merciful.

At least, this is my interpretation. My players seem convinced that I prefer a No Mercy! style. Still, I usually see only 1 death per 30 sessions or so, ignoring times where the PCs kill eachother off, either through friendly fire (I can kill you and the enemy from here) or abandonment (Screw this, you hit the ground, I'm bailing). Admittedly they also spend a lot of time running in many campaigns, and I play enemies on the smart side of merciful. They will focus fire, cripple effectiveness through killing vehicles (As frequently as once per 1.3 or so sessions in some games, usually much less), lay traps, steal weapons, etc. But if someone is knocked out, they usually don't finish them off, unless the setting has magical healing.

On an unrelated note, is there any chance of a break between the categories? Maybe a full row of emptiness, with the title boldfaced? And on the GM in question, I seriously doubt his Lo I am Merciful side. And that Kill Em All bit suddenly looks more appropriate.

Dire Moose
2010-02-23, 09:36 PM
I'm definitely not uncaring toward PCs, and have let some of my own rule errors stand on occasion. However, I do not baby anyone and I let NPCs behave as real people typically would.

That includes one occasion in which one of my players dropped to negative HP, one of the enemies had not gone yet, and the rest of the party had a lower initiative than the remaining enemy. The next action was a coup de grace, as would naturally be expected.

And when it comes to people like this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7896235#post7896235)... well, there's some cases where there is simply no other option.

Vortling
2010-02-23, 09:44 PM
Mostly I'm a Lo! For I am merciful. I prefer to mess with my players in ways that don't involve killing off their characters.

Fiery Diamond
2010-02-23, 09:47 PM
Lo, for I am merciful.

That's what I am. I'll fudge things to keep PCs alive, and I'll not have enemies attack those who are down, but death can still occur. However, now that the party of my current campaign, which happens to be gestalt, is level nine, I intend to become a No Mercy DM, since they can easily raise each other from the dead and they are really powerful.

I look forward to seeing how they fare against the level 10 sorcerer//rogue with extra spells known.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-23, 10:56 PM
...you legally escaped from a bad situation... and he screwed you? Forcing you to use a Fiat Card to get out of the situation?? I question his judgment on that one, just sayin'.

Also, Tinydwarfman, sorry to ruin your fun buddy. However, I've done that before. My party was fighting a very suave and civilized Aristocrat, and halfway through the fight, this bell rings. He perks up, lowers his blade, and asks if they'd like to join him for afternoon tea. The party was surprised, to say the least. They eventually did join him, after much bickering, and over the course of that tea and biscuits, they actually ended up allying with the Aristocrat!

Oh man, I totally need to do this to my players sometime... Hope you don't mind :smallwink:

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 11:09 PM
One foot in the grave, one foot on the ground. It's their business to stay alive and my business to run the world.

If the party is to die, let them die. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my monsters are to lose the war, I must simply laugh. It's not my story to write.

Dimers
2010-02-23, 11:24 PM
I generally aim for "one foot in" or "lo merciful". People enjoy having their characters survive, and I like to have people enjoy things. I accomplish this mostly by trying to aim at an appropriate ECL, rather than by fudging. And on the other hand, when things are too easy for the PCs and there's not enough challenge to keep the players' interest, I tighten the screws. People enjoy having their characters survive, not prance through fields of daisies. Also, like Frozen Feet mentioned, if the players are dedicated to doing something risky (hopefully as a result of intense role fulfillment), I just roll the dice and see what happens.

arguskos
2010-02-23, 11:26 PM
Oh man, I totally need to do this to my players sometime... Hope you don't mind :smallwink:
Sure, help thyself. :smallwink:

Grumman
2010-02-23, 11:37 PM
Lo, for I am merciful, I think.

I won't cheat to let them kill something they shouldn't, nor do I cheat to kill them, but I don't like killing anyone through no fault of their own. Also, I do play most creatures as having the desire to survive, which means they may flee, surrender or try to sue for peace rather than going out in a blaze of glory.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-23, 11:39 PM
Also, Tinydwarfman, sorry to ruin your fun buddy. However, I've done that before. My party was fighting a very suave and civilized Aristocrat, and halfway through the fight, this bell rings. He perks up, lowers his blade, and asks if they'd like to join him for afternoon tea. The party was surprised, to say the least. They eventually did join him, after much bickering, and over the course of that tea and biscuits, they actually ended up allying with the Aristocrat!

That'll never work on my party, unfortunately--as soon as he mentioned "tea" they'd try their best to blow the place up. In my last two campaigns, one of the BBEG's lieutenants invited the PCs to a meal, explained why he had to get them out of the way, apologized profusely for it, and proceeded to either attack them himself or arrange an assassination; I seem to be on a "nice-guy punch clock villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunchClockVillain)" kick of late for some reason....

Harperfan7
2010-02-23, 11:52 PM
No Mercy, except with noobs, who get a 3 strikes and your out ...thing. Every time they drop to -10, instead they are -9 (though unstable) and shaken until the end of the session.

The third time, they die.

Crosswinds
2010-02-24, 12:15 AM
Because I'm the only person in my local group with any long-term experience in Tabletop games, I tend to DM more towards "Lo, for I am Merciful," though I'm going to gradually switch over to "No Mercy" as my players gain more experience with the games.

Cisturn
2010-02-24, 12:56 AM
I think I probably fall into the one foot in the grave category. I mean it's no fun of your PC is constantly dying but if you take away the possibility of death entirely the suspense and half the fun of the game is taken away too. Admittedly though i did start to fall into the "Lo, for I am Merciful" during one campaign, i had a guy playing a Monk that was continually losing limbs and getting knocked into the negatives. He had gained the half-golem template early on and every time he lost a limb or was caught up, the golem part would regrow and heal whatever was lost, the catch was the golem's souls eventually started to vie for control of the whole body.

Satyr
2010-02-24, 03:19 AM
I try to stay flexible in this regard, but tend to be a merciful gamemaster in a merciless world, meaning that I play the NPCs smart and when they are out to kill, they will try to do so, but that's what happens within the game. On the meta-level, I try to protect the player characters and don't try to slaughter them just because. In addition, when I have a saying in this, dead means dead. Ressurection magic is training wheels and cheapens death, it's therefore antidramatic and anticlimatic and therefore does'nt appea in my games very often. Outside of the Herbert West School for Aplied Necromancy, that is.
But most systems I prefer make it much easier to drop or critically injure an enemy than outright kill him (unlike the idiotic "I have lost 99% of my hitpoints but I still feel great! Oh no, now I have tossed my head too hard on the door frame, I'm in a coma" nonsense in D&D) and characters might survive a most certainly lethal injury, albeit with a permanent injury or invalidity.
The lethality of any given campaign may also vary over the course of the action. I like to start a campaign with a bang and enough pressure from the outside to kit the characters together, and thus make the first adventure extra brutal, often with the intention to kill one character to bring the rest closer together. It's a proven strategy.

Grifthin
2010-02-24, 05:29 AM
I hate the DM pulling punches. We still play with the house rule that two 20's in a row kills what your fighting and vica versa. Last session I got nailed by a kobold rolling 20's. The dm wanted me to be at -1 stable. I said screw that the rules are the rules.

Consequently I try my best to kill the characters with npc's etc who actually plan and use the enviroment to their advantage. I won't randomly kill them off but if you do something stupid there will be consequences.

onthetown
2010-02-24, 07:24 AM
I'm somewhere between No Mercy and One Foot in the Grave, One Foot on the Ground with my online campaigns. I occasionally have mercy for them if it's me that screws up, but it's not my fault if they blindly forge forward into the abyss. :smallamused:

I'm pretty sure our DM for our RL campaign is Lo, For I Am Merciful, and it drives me insane. I don't have a healthy fear of dying anymore. It is kind of nice to be able to talk to him about when I actually want a character killed off, though (I have many characters. Sometimes I like thinning out the sheets. Muahahahah...).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 07:33 AM
Now that is a tough DM. Killing one player may be considered an accident, two though... :smallwink:


For the sake of simplicity, Im counting everything that involved the player no longer being able to play that character.

I believe the druid met an untimely end. As did the ranger. Then the rogue was sold into slavery by his party. The kender said he could solo a dire bear. He couldn't. The wizard vowed to avenge the kender. The bear ate him too. Then the revived kender was possessed by a demon. Technically fixable, but everyone in the party was either ignorant or happy to see the kender go. The barbarian tried to take on a dragon at level 8.

Im probably missing a few in this campaign, but we've had more casualties than players, and only two characters from level 1 are still alive.

Just_Ice
2010-02-24, 08:21 AM
It's pretty hard to be a nice guy when your players roll crits about a third of the time, and you only roll above ten about a third of the time.

JediSoth
2010-02-24, 08:55 AM
I usually stick to the middle-ground, leaning towards "Lo, for I am merciful." If the death would be anti-climatic, like a rat gnawing on a paralyzed PC, I generally try to fudge in the PC's favor, especially if its a situation that would wreck my campaign due to pure, bad luck.

If the PC does something stupid, like an arcane caster entering melee combat with a magic warhammer-wielding dwarven vampire, I let the dice fall where they may (full attack + crit = Gallagher show with the Artificer's head in the place of a melon).

If it's the Final, Climatic battle of the campaign, I have the monsters/NPCs fight no-holds-barred: if PCs die, they die. If they live, they can revel in their triumph!

Friv
2010-02-24, 09:11 AM
I am... none of those categories. The closest would be "Lo, I am Merciful", but I don't actually fudge rolls, and I've only had enemies make deliberately poor tactical situations in a handful of instances where the dice were going absurdly in the wrong direction (seven critical failures for the PCs in a row, accompanied by nearly as many critical successes for the minor mooks that ambushed them, f'rex.)

Rather, I tend to play in systems where PCs don't easily die unless you deliberately build NPCs for killing individuals instead of challenging parties, and I don't build NPCs for the purpose of killing my party - I deliberately avoid putting powers in play that will lead to the potential for one-hit kills, preferring things that weaken or wear down the PCs to make things feel suspenseful without being likely to kill anyone. As a result, PCs almost never die in my games. Where does that put me?

Myou
2010-02-24, 09:16 AM
I don't kill PCs (permanently) unless the player is ok with it, and even then I don't ever try to kill them. Opponents though, do try their best to.

The closest I ever came to a TPK was when two level 2 players took on about 100 CR 1/2 to CR 6 spiders in a huge nest in a cave. They prepared well, with help from me, drying out the cave by diverting the water flow dow the mountainside and as thier first attack set the webs that filled the cave ablaze to kill almost all the spiders, and so they ended up facing off against a flaming queen spider (:smallbiggrin:) in the centre of a blazing inferno, and they killed the spider with their final action before dropping into negative HP. NPCs were able to drag them out of the blaze before they died.

Edit: So, Lo, I am merciful I think.

Sipex
2010-02-24, 10:09 AM
I'm a softy; Lo', I am Merciful.

I don't want to be, I want to be impartial, even a bit devious (play the enemies so they'll try to kill the PCs) but whenever I create an encounter where the enemies might actually be challenging my PCs display frustration that I've actually given them a challenge and I feel guilty because hey, they're still my friends.

Then I pull some punches so things aren't quite as devastating and it's suddenly over with only a couple of healing surges spent.

Our last battle was okay though, the PCs sure were sweating then. I just need more discipline.

I am slightly frustrated by their overall outlook though "Don't worry if we die, we can just get revived!". I think they'll find, once that time comes around that reviving is harder than they think. They don't seem to realise the cost associated with it.

slyfox99
2010-02-24, 10:36 AM
I'm running a 4th Ed campaign for my girlfriend and my two kids, all of whom are new to the game. With only three players, I initially let them run two players each, which turned out to be a huge mistake. EVERYTHING took too long. So instead of each of them deciding which character to give up, they asked me to make the second session a bit more deadly, which I did. We would let the dice and the goblins decide which characters remained, as it seemed a bit mor organic... So the second session ended with two PCs and the warlock NPC I had run to aid them dying at the hands of goblins, fire beetles and wolves. The only drama I had to endure was from my 8 year old son, as his dwarf fighter survived and his dragonborn swordmage did not. As he falls into the "I want to try every kind of character" sort of player, he was cool with it when I reminded him he wasn't going to get a deva PC as long as his other characters lived...

As a genenral rule though, I try not to kill off characters. I'm a story-based DM and constantly changing characters would make the plot and its ongoing thickening less relevant. Also, it takes too dang long to make a character, and we have a house rule preventing the "Bob, my fighter just died, so say hello to Bob II, who has the exact same numbers as Bob." My rule is, if your fifth level dwarf fighter dies, you get a new fifth level character, but he or she cannot be either a fighter or a dwarf. Its easy enough to replace the defenders role of the dwarf fighter with a human paladin, lets say... I just liek to encourage the players to try everything.

Talon Sky
2010-04-09, 12:03 AM
For sure, No Mercy. My players know it, and they do their best to stay alive. Granted, I may throw them up against an army of were-wombats with Bull's Strength casted on them, but my players also know I smuggle in little ways for them to win.

Like having the battle on an unstable mountainside, and the players just happened to find a horn and a scroll of Protection from Earth earlier in the adventure. If they want to slug it out, they better roll pretty well. If they want to be smart, then the battle will be a little easier. Monsters and villains still fight with all they got, retreat for reinforcements, and aim for spellcasters. But the PC's are, by nature, supposed to be smarter and tougher.

They are heroes, after all, but few heroes are great for simply being great. Most have help along the way....a lot of help.

AslanCross
2010-04-09, 12:12 AM
Typically No Mercy, although there are times I'd rather find a way for the dead PCs to come back rather than suddenly introduce new PCs at high levels. "All of a sudden, a Lv 16 Wizard finds his way into the area" is IMO even worse of a DM fiat than "someone offers you a Candle of Invocation."

The reason I show no mercy is that I offer my players a lot of help in building their characters, so if they do something thoroughly stupid that gets people killed ("Let's not heal up before we rest; I doubt the advancing horde of goblinoids is going to attack at night."), PCs suffer the consequences of their actions.

Paulus
2010-04-09, 12:14 AM
Fire the Gravedigger: This DM absolutally, will NOT let their PC's die. A TPK'd party will be taken prisoner and put in an easily escapable jail cell with their gear in a poorly locked chest across the room, or a wandering party of adventurers will show up, save them, heal them, and leave. Now this dosn't mean the PC's will always Win, it just means that actual PC death will not occur.
Bottom Line: Will not kill off their PC's.

I think there is a middle ground here that I would find myself in... perhaps.

If a PC dies I will leave them dead but not shunt the character off into the netherbliss forever. Instead I'll see what option I can give to work with the player in bringing them back if they really want to, or by their choice, bring in someone else. I think players should be allowed to play their character until they no longer want to, tis a to have a character all made out and then just have it end unsatisfactory. like a few bad rolls. seems anticlimatic. I dunno I just fin my story telling sensibility too hard to fight to just let it end like that. Especially if there are gods in the world, after lives, and ghosts and such.

The only end I think a Player's character should have is a really good one, a really good bad one, or a 'the end?' one.

So yeah, they can die... but like all the good heroes, are they really dead?

arguskos
2010-04-09, 12:18 AM
So yeah, they can die... but like all the good heroes, are they really dead?
You're damn right they are. When you get eaten and digested by the god-killing abomination, you're dead, sorry 'bout your luck. Now... perhaps you shouldn't have stuck a 10-ft pole up said abomination's nose. Otherwise, you might still be alive today. Just sayin'. True story bro.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 12:23 AM
I play No Mercy!

Though I do tend to deus ex machina my favourite characters (not the players, their characters).

I play smart, but where appropriate I'll let them survive or be raised somehow.

Paulus
2010-04-09, 12:24 AM
You're damn right they are. When you get eaten and digested by the god-killing abomination, you're dead, sorry 'bout your luck. Now... perhaps you shouldn't have stuck a 10-ft pole up said abomination's nose. Otherwise, you might still be alive today. Just sayin'. True story bro.


Garl Glittergold likes your gall.
You awake to find yourself sitting naked on the road with with a feeling as if you are being watched and you aren't sure, but you could have sworn the clouds looked like the number 7.5 for a moment there.

arguskos
2010-04-09, 12:29 AM
See... that doesn't make sense, given that you were eaten by a thing that can eat GODS. Not sure a god should logically be able to save you. Sometimes, folks just don't come back. It happens, and when it does, it's usually hilarious.

Temotei
2010-04-09, 12:31 AM
See... that doesn't make sense, given that you were eaten by a thing that can eat GODS. Not sure a god should logically be able to save you. Sometimes, folks just don't come back. It happens, and when it does, it's usually hilarious.

Fire! :smallbiggrin:

Like that one time I jumped off a building and rolled maximum damage on every die. :smallsigh:

Every. Single. Die!

Talon Sky
2010-04-09, 12:34 AM
I do bring characters back, however, if the players wish it. The character's deities will send them back, and I offer the player a choice between four 'orbs' with predetermined outcomes.

One orb has a neat 'perk', like a stat increase (random).
Two orbs have a 'quirk' that imprints on the character, usually to annoy the player and for my own amusement.
The last orb has a negative effect, like a stat decrease (random).

These usually have pretty funny results. One character came back as a necrophiliac, and had to make a Will save every time they killed something humanoid to resist the urges. ;p Another character, a gnome, came back with such a high squeaky voice that no NPC could take it seriously without rolling a DC 20 Will save ;p

Oddly enough, the gnome defeated one of my BBEG by simply talking to her, allowing the others time to sneak in for the kill....

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 12:35 AM
Fire! :smallbiggrin:

Like that one time I jumped off a building and rolled maximum damage on every die. :smallsigh:

Every. Single. Die!

A friend of mine was being pursued by Paladins up a very tall wall using the stairs on the inside and when he reached the top he decided to hold his ground. He was a Warlock with Spiderclimb active and he decided that it was getting too hot up there.

He jumped off (rather than just climb off) and failed all three of the dexterity checks I allowed him to touch the wall he was right next to so that his Spiderclimb would save him.

He got 62 damage from it and I only remember that because he wrote it on his character sheet. Needless to say, a 5th level Warlock was then splattered all over the street.

He only came back because he had friends in high places.

Paulus
2010-04-09, 12:36 AM
See... that doesn't make sense, given that you were eaten by a thing that can eat GODS. Not sure a god should logically be able to save you. Sometimes, folks just don't come back. It happens, and when it does, it's usually hilarious.

Pssh, yee dare question the DM?! Besides. That monster was just a joke. Made by Garl Glittergold. It's really just three chimps in a potato sack with two back scratchers and a coat hanger for a tail. Hey gotta keep the other gods on their toes right?

Temotei
2010-04-09, 12:38 AM
A friend of mine was being pursued by Paladins up a very tall wall using the stairs on the inside and when he reached the top he decided to hold his ground. He was a Warlock with Spiderclimb active and he decided that it was getting too hot up there.

He jumped off (rather than just climb off) and failed all three of the dexterity checks I allowed him to touch the wall he was right next to so that his Spiderclimb would save him.

He got 62 damage from it and I only remember that because he wrote it on his character sheet. Needless to say, a 5th level Warlock was then splattered all over the street.

He only came back because he had friends in high places.

Oof. Yeah...I failed Tumble and Jump checks epically. Ended up taking all 90 damage from the 15d6. :smallsigh: Long fall. I've learned that feather fall is one of my favorite things ever.

arguskos
2010-04-09, 12:40 AM
Pssh, yee dare question the DM?! Besides. That monster was just a joke. Made by Garl Glittergold. It's really just three chimps in a potato sack with two back scratchers and a coat hanger for a tail. Hey gotta keep the other gods on their toes right?
You'd be a laughriot to play with. :smallbiggrin:

Though, you've got to pick a better god than the god of hated gnomes. :smallyuk::smallwink:

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 12:42 AM
Oof. Yeah...I failed Tumble and Jump checks epically. Ended up taking all 90 damage from the 15d6. :smallsigh: Long fall. I've learned that feather fall is one of my favorite things ever.

My friend asked me what would be better as his next character a while after that. I said Wizard. He asked why and I pointed to the notes section of his old character sheet with smiling and just said "Feather Fall."

Kinda made me feel like Eugene in OotS, but in a good way :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-04-09, 12:43 AM
Man, feather fall makes everything better. :smallcool:

There's a reason I always pick up a scroll or potion of it: cause it's always good to have!

Paulus
2010-04-09, 12:45 AM
You'd be a laughriot to play with. :smallbiggrin:

Though, you've got to pick a better god than the god of hated gnomes. :smallyuk::smallwink:

Ha, the joke is on you. There really is no Garl Glittergold, he's really just Boccob's sock puppet. Boccob can't go around ruining his reputation by showing his sense of humor, so he created another god (hey he's a wizard god, who else would?) just so he could blame all of his stupid mistakes and antics on it while remaining aloof and mysterious. This is why everyone hates gnomes. This is why no one heards much about Boccob.

Choco
2010-04-09, 08:31 AM
No Mercy all the way. My players know that the enemies have the same goal they do: Kill the opposition in the most efficient way possible, then take their stuff :smallbiggrin:.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-09, 09:01 AM
I’m a no mercy DM…within limits.

I try to play creatures as close to the hilt as I can. A pack of wolves…they’ll gang up on the weakest target and attack major threats if they need to, retreating if they lost a few of their members in the struggle. Goblin attack squads tend to break when their leader goes down. Organized armies work in strategic tandem.

An example: In a 4e game I’m running, the party fought a group of berserkers. Before berserking, their opponents stuck to basic hit and run tactics, but when driven into a battle fury, they went after whatever had just attacked them, frothing at the mouth and swinging wildly. This actually saved a few players. When I pitted them up against part of an army, I played tactically, pulling them into situations where the hardest hitter (an elite skirmisher) was able to get combat advantage on multiple targets, tearing them up, while ranged artillery units focused on dropping the party’s ranged units. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this, as after all, this was a military group. That, and I like to remind people that tactics IS a part of this game. And a big one. They never remember...

I don’t pull my punches, but I’m not wearing weighted boxing gloves.

Jeff240sx
2010-04-09, 12:28 PM
No Mercy / One Foot...

While I want my PCs to feel the danger and be scared of death, I really don't actively want to kill them off. Partly because I hate hearing the moaning of someone a level behind, and partly because it's a pain to halt the adventure in order to pick someone off the ground and find a capable priest for the rez.

I did just have a Bodak kill 2 of the 4 level 7s in the party from his gaze attack, (1d4 rolled randomly to choose target). A 3 and a 1 on the will save is just... not fudge-able. With the nearest town 2 days away, I had to fudge the becoming a Bodak from 24hours to 1d4 days (rolled 3 days, the luck!). And to pay for the resurrection, each character was stripped of about half their equipment - which was sold in the marketplace - in order to pay for the castings.
There was some luck - had the roll been a 1 or 2, fate would have probably led to a TPK, or two completely destroyed characters at the very least(dead undeads). Even though they lucked out, there was still a severe consequence to their death.

I also read the MM entries to determine how the monsters fight, and they do so per the book. It prevents being called out for favoritism ("Yea, it attacked you!" *points to book* "Most. Threatening. You hurt it more.")

Octopus Jack
2010-04-09, 12:39 PM
I tend to be a nice DM sure i put my players through some hard encounters but they usually come out on top. Two characters have died in the game i'm currently running, one thought that I'd only put one illusion in a room and promtly fell through the floor during a bull rush. The other sacrificed himself while the party could swim by the homebrewed tenticle monster that was eating him.
of course there was that owlbear I set on the parrty...

valadil
2010-04-09, 01:30 PM
Out of curiosity, how well does PC killing line up with GNS theory (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/3/)? Intuitively I feel like Narrativists will prefer not to kill characters, especially if they have plot left. Gamists will kill players when they deserve it. And simulationists will do it whenever the dice tell them to.

This occurred to me on another board where we were discussing if the different GNS agendas really were mutually exclusive. I think they're compatible for a while, but there are times where the GM is forced to prioritize G, N, or S, higher than the other two. IMO PC death is one of those times. But I'm only a narrativist with some gamist tendencies, so I don't have a large sample size for this conclusion.

Fiery Diamond
2010-04-09, 01:56 PM
Out of curiosity, how well does PC killing line up with GNS theory (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/3/)? Intuitively I feel like Narrativists will prefer not to kill characters, especially if they have plot left. Gamists will kill players when they deserve it. And simulationists will do it whenever the dice tell them to.

This occurred to me on another board where we were discussing if the different GNS agendas really were mutually exclusive. I think they're compatible for a while, but there are times where the GM is forced to prioritize G, N, or S, higher than the other two. IMO PC death is one of those times. But I'm only a narrativist with some gamist tendencies, so I don't have a large sample size for this conclusion.

:smalleek: NO NO NO! Don't go there! It will derail this thread entirely! Bringing up GNS is like ... like ... saying TOB is too anime, or saying that OoTS is bad, or, or, ......
...I'm saying that GNS is attracts flames like moths to ... wait... I mean... People have some rather, er, heated conflicts when GNS is brought up.:smalleek:

Ormagoden
2010-04-09, 01:58 PM
<Huge block of unformatted text for starting post.>

Formatting is your friend especially when you want people to start a dialog on your topic.

Choco
2010-04-09, 02:03 PM
:smalleek: NO NO NO! Don't go there! It will derail this thread entirely! Bringing up GNS is like ... like ... saying TOB is too anime, or saying that OoTS is bad, or, or, ......
...I'm saying that GNS is attracts flames like moths to ... wait... I mean... People have some rather, er, heated conflicts when GNS is brought up.:smalleek:

*grabs popcorn and eagerly awaits the carnage*

Yup, can't wait!

Oslecamo
2010-04-09, 02:10 PM
One foot in the grave, one foot on the ground: Monsters go all out, but they aren't exactly tactical genius so probably end up dispersing their attacks so the party has some breathing room. But if that orc with an axe confirms a crit, or that breath weapon rolls specially high and you fail the reflex save, then too bad for you.

I do tend to optimize my monsters so they can bypass special defenses so they're actualy a threat to the players when they walk in invisible, ethereal, flying and behind a wall of force, but won't optimize the damage too much so the players don't go down in a single round from power attack shenigans for example.

Also never attack bleeding players(they look dead!), altough they may be caught in area effects.

Eric Tolle
2010-04-09, 02:17 PM
I personally don't see the point of being a killer GM, since as the person running the world, I can always kill all of the characters at any time. This point was driven home to me in a conversation a couple decades ago, when an acquaintance was talking about this "incredible Champions game" he had run. He said he had noted that the player's character had takent he evil android Mechanon as an enemy and was hiding in Los Angeles. As he said: "Well, I figured hey, Mechanon hates all humanity, he doesn't care about human life. So, he just nuked Los Angeles! I won!"

So yeah, whether it's a cave-in or a gamma-ray burster, I can always kill the party. Conversely, I can't actually remember when I last killed a character; there's always so many more interesting things to be threatened; things characters care about, goals that may or may not be won, and so on.

Oslecamo
2010-04-09, 02:30 PM
there's always so many more interesting things to be threatened; things characters care about, goals that may or may not be won, and so on.

Precisely! Even if the PCs don't die, there can still be plenty of drama and tragedy as the world around the party literally falls apart if they can't stop the BBEG!

Granted, some parties will treat a slaughtered city as "free loot!", but those players probably don't care much about drama and tragedy anyway.

Umael
2010-04-09, 02:30 PM
It depends on the group and the game, honestly.

Kill 'Em All!: Must be playing Paranoia.
No Mercy!: If the group is okay with dark tones and we are playing the Storyteller system.
One Foot in the Grave: Legend of the Five Rings
Lo! I am Merciful!: Most games with my current group. They tend to hate the character-making process and want to see the story play out. I am here most times.
Fire the Gravedigger!: Must be playing Toons!


Also...

arguskos - Bravo on the tea-time antagonist!

Tinydwarfman - Having a monster stop in the middle of combat to feed is not necessarily making the monster stupid, or worse, is not a bad thing BECAUSE the monster is stupid.

Ex: Grick, carrion crawler, purple worm, etc. - you are food. You are helpless. Get food. Go away.
Ex: Ghouls - is it stupidity, evil, or cunning that makes them go for the coup de grace on the paralyzed PC? (Yes, I ALWAYS do this when I use ghouls. I play undead nasty - if your PC can't fight back, they WILL kill him/her and stop to feed on your PC's corpse. Gives the other PCs time to escape, fight back, whatever. Good for horror.)
Ex: Dragons. It is more an eat-on-the-run kind of thing, but still, taking the time to gloat while swallowing the party wizard is golden. Or even a "you may kill me, but I'm taking some of you with me!" kind of mentality - good if the dragon knows it is about to die.

Oslecamo
2010-04-09, 02:49 PM
good if the dragon knows it is about to die.

Nitpick, but considering dragon's great longevity, and the fact that they get stronger just by growing older, it's really stupid for a dragon to fight to the death. At least all dragon NPCs I've seen would rather retreat to fight another century when seriously wounded rather than to try to take as many PCs as possible with them. Unless they're working for some bigger power and trust they're gonna get ressurected if killed.

Umael
2010-04-09, 02:58 PM
Nitpick, but considering dragon's great longevity, and the fact that they get stronger just by growing older, it's really stupid for a dragon to fight to the death. At least all dragon NPCs I've seen would rather retreat to fight another century when seriously wounded rather than to try to take as many PCs as possible with them. Unless they're working for some bigger power and trust they're gonna get ressurected if killed.

More than fair enough point. However, I was thinking more along the lines of the dragon being unable to escape (the PCs invaded its lair). While image might have been an older dragon, there is no reason why a younger dragon (who, while still a dragon, is still one of many) will automatically be allied with some bigger power willing to ressurrect him/her.

But yes - most dragons would not only have a backup escape plan and would flee than fight a losing battle to the death.

Counter-nitpick: How often DOES any GM play the game lethally and intelligently insofaras the creature reactions are concerned? Most creatures would rather not get into a fight in the first place because of the chance of getting killed. Creatures that go around picking fights all the time tend not to last long. Unless they are PCs. Because the PCs know that the GM has fired the gravedigger... :smallsigh:

valadil
2010-04-09, 03:13 PM
:smalleek: NO NO NO! Don't go there! It will derail this thread entirely! Bringing up GNS is like ... like ... saying TOB is too anime, or saying that OoTS is bad, or, or, ......
...I'm saying that GNS is attracts flames like moths to ... wait... I mean... People have some rather, er, heated conflicts when GNS is brought up.:smalleek:

Fair enough, I retract my previous question. If there's another GNS thread I'll bring up PC death in there instead of going the other way around.

Oslecamo
2010-04-09, 03:43 PM
Counter-nitpick: How often DOES any GM play the game lethally and intelligently insofaras the creature reactions are concerned? Most creatures would rather not get into a fight in the first place because of the chance of getting killed. Creatures that go around picking fights all the time tend not to last long. Unless they are PCs. Because the PCs know that the GM has fired the gravedigger... :smallsigh:

Well, but that's kinda the point of D&D. Creatures that like to pick fights start to make trouble, and the PCs are called to take care of it because the town guards don't feel like throwing away their lifes to try to drown that fire giant berseker with their blood.

Then we have "guard" monsters like undeads and constructs that are agressive but ordered to patrol a certain area. Area filled with valuable loot of wich the PCs have heard rumors off.

We also have "top of the local chain" creatures, smart predators/bandits that have little to fear from their own enviroment, but fail to recognize the adventurers as more than they can chew. After all, what's the exact diference between the aspect of a 1st level barbarian and a 15th level barbarian? The "top of the local chain" will only notice the diference when it's too late.

And then of course we get minions from some higher power, wich either throw themselves at the party and may come out alive(or at least die quickly), or defy their master and get some horrible treatment, like Xykon took care of his ogres that wanted a pay rise.

Of course, smart monsters who realize they're seriously outgunned will try to run, but thing is, the party will normally look just like a bunch of squishy humies, so even smart monsters will commit the "mistake" of attacking them.:smallbiggrin:

WarKitty
2010-04-09, 03:46 PM
Depends on the character/player, honestly. My current campaign (homebrew that's being shifted to gestalt/plain overpowered 3.5):

(1) Fighter-type: fairly experienced roleplayer. Likes killing things but shows healthy self-preservation instinct. No mercy

(2) Rouge: some rp experience but not much. Cautious. Lo, for I am merciful

(3) Arcane archer: on first RP game ever. Rather confused about it. Fire the gravedigger.

(4) Sorcerer: very little RP experience. Also cautious. Fire the gravedigger.

(5) Bard: some rp experience. Usually too dumb to live. Leaves rest of party behind to run up and open door after the last 3 were all trapped. Puts on unidentified magic items. Player really likes making new characters. no mercy