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Math_Mage
2010-02-23, 09:58 PM
Right now, I'm making a Swift Hunter going mostly by the first build in Dictum_Mortuum's Swift Hunter's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872750/The_Swift_Hunters_Handbook_--_2007), Scout 5/Ranger 15, and wondering if there are any tips I should keep in mind beyond what's mentioned in that build.

More generally, I'm curious about interesting archer builds, because aside from this one, I haven't really looked into archery at all. What madness has CharOp unleashed upon the world? :smallamused:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-23, 10:03 PM
Right now, I'm making a Swift Hunter going mostly by the first build in Dictum_Mortuum's Swift Hunter's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872750/The_Swift_Hunters_Handbook_--_2007), Scout 5/Ranger 15, and wondering if there are any tips I should keep in mind beyond what's mentioned in that build.

More generally, I'm curious about interesting archer builds, because aside from this one, I haven't really looked into archery at all. What madness has CharOp unleashed upon the world? :smallamused:

I prefer TWF to be fair, but I rcognize that archeriy is a better option with swift hunter.... now for Advice check Eldariel's archery handbook (not finished AFAIK but pretty good) and get a spliting enchantment on your bow to double your shots, combine with manyshot and greater manyshot for extra fun


Edit: Linky (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)

Eldariel
2010-02-23, 10:05 PM
Hm. Old but interesting (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0). Most successful Archer-builds are really casters though; Archivists & Cleric in particular make for excellent Archers, but Bard/Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord/SE/AC, Wizard and company are decent as well. Other than that, Factotum Manyshot Archer works great, Soulbow is a nice Wis SAD archer, Warblade (and Eternal Blade in particular) have few great abilities to use with archery and of course, there's the classic "stamp as many Damage/To Hit Enhancing Martial Classes Together"-variant. Oh, and Rogues.


But yeah, for Skirmisher? Well, Cloistered Cleric-dip for Travel Devotion is a very viable alternative to Greater Manyshot, getting you more attacks and being slightly easier to hit with. Mystic Ranger definitely > Ranger and I personally prefer Scout 3/Ranger 17 split for eventual Hide in Plain Sight. There isn't much to say; make sure your To Hit is decent, pick up Skirmishing- and Stealth-related feats, be prepared to handle various skill-related tasks too and you'll be fine.

Sword of the Arcane Order [CoV] is absolutely incredible if you can gain it; getting access to Wizard-spells just skyrockets your capabilities and the Shooting Star-replacement levels are excellent too. That's about it, ask about something specific if you want specific advice.

EDIT: Well, since it got mentioned already, the Unfinished Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.40). I'll get to it some day. I swear! There may be something you can use there right now though.

EDIT#2: Well, my edit got ninja'd. Awkward.

Math_Mage
2010-02-23, 10:13 PM
Cool stuff. Thanks! I'll take a stroll through it.

Akal Saris
2010-02-24, 12:36 AM
Hey, I play a swift hunter every time I head home for winter/spring/summer break. Scout 3/Ranger 10 in my case.

The most important feat I have is definitely travel devotion from Complete Champion - getting skirmish with a full attack is awesome. Originally the build was Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 9, but I took out the cleric because it didn't fit the character well and it screwed up my skills list and BAB.

I avoided the mystic ranger and other variants, except for arcane hunter (C. Mage), which gives FE: Arcane Spellcasters. There's a constant in-joke in my group that because my main favored enemies are arcane spellcasters and humans, one day I'm going to gut the party's human wizard :P

Mystic Ranger is OK, but keep in mind that it delays a lot of other nice class features that you'll need to rely on, and after Ranger 10 the spell progression goes from awesome to worse than a bard's. It's nice with Sword of the Arcane Order, Practiced Spellcaster, etc, but that's burning a lot of extra feats that you probably won't have.

Otherwise, keep in mind that a swift hunter isn't the most damaging archer build, and that archers in general do less damage than mounted combat or charging 2H-weapon builds. What it lacks in damage, however, it gains in having a high number of useful skills. In my game those skills mostly go to waste because of party dynamics (we already had a monk, a druid, and a rogue doing the scouting, nature skills, and talking), but in the right game they'll add a lot of usefulness to the character.

While you're looking at handbooks, I'd definitely recommend Eldariel's archery handbook, and if you're playing a neutral/evil character then my own poison handbook might help, since poisons work very well with ranged characters.

Thrawn183
2010-02-24, 01:04 AM
I would say go with a force bow. Between ranger favored enemies overcoming normal immunities to precision damage and the force bow allowing you to overcome DR, you'll be pretty set to be useful in almost any situation.

I mean, you can handle healing, scouting, and deal some respectable damage. Sounds like a well rounded character to me!

Eisirt
2010-12-08, 05:15 AM
All the build so far have only included 1 lvl of Scout, prolly to avoid unneeded BaB-loss. However, the feat Swift Hunter requires Skirmish (+1d6 damage, +1AC) which is obtained at Scout 4.

Eldariel
2010-12-08, 05:34 AM
All the build so far have only included 1 lvl of Scout, prolly to avoid unneeded BaB-loss. However, the feat Swift Hunter requires Skirmish (+1d6 damage, +1AC) which is obtained at Scout 4.

...what? Builds thus far contain Scout 3 which is when you get +1d6/+1 Skirmish. I have no idea what you're talking about; care to cite one person suggesting "Scout 1"?

Godskook
2010-12-08, 07:01 AM
This is probably the most important thing to note about Swift Hunter: You are *NOT* a DPS archer. You're a skill-monkey who can also handle 2nd or 3rd line damage output fairly easily.

Now, I'd ask the DM to 'fix' the scout list by adding the Rogue list to it(that's what I did for in the campaign I DM).

Grab Able Learner if you can tolerate human, since it'll allow you to invest in UMD, UPD, and other cross-class skills without it being painful to do so. This is true regardless of the previous suggestion, since your DM likely won't let you put the rogue list on the ranger list, and you're spending a few levels there.

Quick Recconoiter is an amazing feat for you, since you'll likely be maxing spot/listen anyway.

Eisirt
2010-12-08, 07:23 AM
Hmmm....

Now that you mention it.... in this thread you are absolutely right.

For now my apologies for sowing confusion, I'll get back on this when I can back it up with proof. (maybe I have been reading another board before I got here)

Edit: Found the source of my confusion...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866186/The_Ultimate_Archer_Handbook

And upon closer examination it contains more faults.

Once again, sorry for adding my confusion to this thread.

Ruinix
2010-12-08, 07:33 AM
on brilliantgameologists boards, in the gish handbook there was an archer build using pathfinder Arcane Archer wich give bab 20 cl 17 at lev 20, if i recall well was duskblade 5 /AA PF 10 / eldrich knight 5

WinceRind
2010-12-08, 08:17 AM
I'd pick 1 level of either Warblade or Swordsage.

Maybe even two of Swordsage, if you're interested to have more use for your Wisdom (but then again it's not like a Ranger has to have a lot of it to do their spells).

Why? Because both Warblade and Swordsage give you Tiger Claw maneuvers. Most maneuvers are questionably useful (I.E, not at all) for archery, but some boosts and stances will be very useful. If you go Swordsage, work on getting the Assasin Stance (second level stance) for free 2d6 sneak attack damage...

If you go Warblade, which I would do in this situation, you can get Iron Heart Surge if you take the warblade level reasonably late (IRS is 3rd level maneuver, meaning that you'll need to be at least 5th level initiatior, so at least 8 levels of non-warblade and 1 of warblade will suffice) and the 1st level stance - Hunter's Scent- from Tiger Claw. It's a very easy way to get Scent, and you might find it useful.

But the real reason you take this 1 or 2 level dip (the latter only if you take the swordsage) is to get "Sudden Leap", a 1st level Tiger Claw boost. What does it do? It lets you jump as a swift action... And the DC required to take a 10 foot jump is 10 with running or 20 without - and you shouldn't have too much trouble getting a total of 20 by level 9 or so. And if you take Improved Skirmish (+2d6 damage, + 2? AC when you move at least 20 feet), you can invest in "Leap of Heavens" to always be considered running for jumps, letting you beat the 20 DC for 20 feet jump easily.

The strikes and the stance you'll get this way are not going to be useful for you, but Sudden Leap will be. You can just prepare all Sudden Leap's (4, if you take 1 level of warblade) and spend 4 rounds doing Skirmish damage on full attacks. Then take another swift action to recharge your maneuvers, and you can continue doing it for another 4 rounds after. Having 4 (5 with rapid shot, possibly more due to other feats) ranged attacks per round (when you're high enough) doing Skirmish damage is extremely awesome.

It's one of the easiest ways to get skirmish on full attacks without being cheesy or requiring a lot of resources like magic and stuff. Plus it might even fit the character - both a ranger and a scout are agile characters, and jumping doesn't seem out of place for either.

And you can always get Iron Heart Surge if you do the dip past level 8, for all it's broken goodness.

And what's better, you don't even lost any damage dies of Skirmish if you do this.

Godskook
2010-12-08, 08:40 AM
You can just prepare all Sudden Leap's (4, if you take 1 level of warblade) and spend 4 rounds doing Skirmish damage on full attacks.

You actually can only prepare a maneuver once.

Darrin
2010-12-08, 09:14 AM
The "default" Swift Hunter build is usually Scout 3/Ranger 17 or Scout 4/Ranger 16. The only difference is there's a gazillion and a half ranged feats you want to take at ECL 6, and your feat slots are limited... but if you go Scout 3/Ranger 2/Scout +1, you can pick up Swift Hunter as the Scout's bonus feat at ECL 6 and pick up some other feat as well.

The bonus damage for skirmish progresses much slower, but with the right build, you can actually keep pace with Sneak Attack and get up to 10d6 Skirmish damage:

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing (you *need* that bonus feat)
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: PB Shot, Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot
3) Scout 1. Feat: Precise Shot. Skirmish 1d6
4) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6 +1
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 2d6 +1/4d6 +3.
7) Dragon Devotee 1.
8) Dragon Devotee 2. Skirmish 3d6 +1/5d6 +3
9) Dragon Devotee 3. Feat: Knowledge Devotion. 1st level Sorcerer casting (get at least 2 divination spells)
10) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 4d6 +1/6d6 +3
11) Unseen Seer 1. Skirmish 5d6 +1/7d6 +3
12) Unseen Seer 2. Feat: Manyshot. Advanced Learning: Hunter's Eye
13) Unseen Seer 3.
14) Unseen Seer 4. Skirmish 6d6 +1/8d6 +3
15) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot.
16) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 7d6 +1/9d6 +3
17) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 7d6 +2/9d6 +4
18) Ranger 4. Feat: Greater Manyshot.
19) Ranger 5. Skirmish 8d6 +2/10d6 +4
20) Spellsword 1.

BAB: +17, 6th level Sorcerer casting.
However, your swift-action spells (Arrow Mind, Hunter's Eye, Sniper's Shot) interferes with Travel Devotion. If you need to move up acquiring Greater Manyshot, then try Ranger 2/Scout 4/Ranger +4, and finish off with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2.

An elf dipping into Cloistered Cleric 1 can pick up Knowledge Devotion, PB Shot (Elf domain), and Travel Devotion all at once. This frees up some feats and also gives you turn undead, which you can convert into more uses of the Travel Devotion. This could allow you to pick up Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow, Rapid Reload, and Crossbow Sniper (PHBII) to extend your skirmish damage out to 60'.

There's another Swift Hunter build that gets full +20 BAB, but you can't pick up Swift Hunter until ECL 9:

1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: PB Shot, Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot
3) Sneak Attack Fighter. Feat: Precise Shot. Sneak Attack +1d6.
4) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance.
5) Ranger 4.
6) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Knowledge Devotion.
7) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 1d6.
8) Highland Stalker 3.
9) Highalnd Stalker 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6 +2.
10) Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6 +2.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot.
12) Highland Stalker 5. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot.
13) Highland Stalker 6. Skirmish 4d6 +2.
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6 +3.
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6 +3/6d6 +5
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6 +3/7d6 +5
17) Ranger 10.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Greater Manyshot. Bonus: Improved Precise Shot. Skirmish 5d6 +4/7d6 +6.
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Skirmish 6d6 +4/8d6 +6.

This build works quite well with Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), which gives you a Power Shot effect that can convert your BAB into extra damage. No two-handed or leap-attack multipliers, though.

You can pick up a couple archery feats with magic items. Precise Shot is available as a +1 enhancement (MIC p. 40). You can get Far Shot with either Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage p. 133) or Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC p. 194). Binding the Sighting Gloves soulmeld to your Hands chakra also gives you the same effect.

WinceRind
2010-12-08, 09:18 AM
You actually can only prepare a maneuver once.

In that case, I've managed to deceive my DM...

Well, even 1 leap is good - it means you can get a full volley with skirmish on each shot every second round if you choose to do so (round 1, sudden leap, round 2 - recharge maneuvers (1swift action and attack), round 3, sudden leap and so on)

Still sounds good to me =p

Eldariel
2010-12-08, 10:56 AM
Ranger 17 is generally taken for the yummy Hide in Plain Sight. Then again, it comes late and Stalker of Kharesh gets it much earlier. And Favored Enemy: Evil, which is just good.

true_shinken
2010-12-08, 10:59 AM
Now, I'd ask the DM to 'fix' the scout list by adding the Rogue list to it(that's what I did for in the campaign I DM).

Errata at least added Disable Device. I don't think you even need more.

Barlen
2010-12-08, 11:34 AM
As a possible alternative to Cloistered cleric (always hated that advise for role playing reasons) perhaps try one level of Seeker of the Misty Isle prc (refluffed for your race/deity). It should be close to most ranger/swift hunter character concepts and it grants travel domain which can be switched for travel devotion.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-08, 01:49 PM
Here is the weapon you should get as a Swift Hunter.

Composite Longbow (STR +7) +1 (Cost: 200,895 gold)
Exit Wound (+3) (Fires through target, +4 AC for each target in front, +1d6 damage)
Splitting (+3) (Doubles the arrows, make separate attack rolls for each arrow)
Fiery (+1) (+1d6 fire damage)
Shocking (+1) (+1d6 electricity damage)
Cold (+1) (+1d6 cold damage)

I'll post more later on a build.

Godskook
2010-12-08, 02:46 PM
Errata at least added Disable Device. I don't think you even need more.

Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device. Considering a scout *replaces* a rogue in the party, I think these are 'standard' skills he should have.

Greenish
2010-12-08, 03:21 PM
As a possible alternative to Cloistered cleric (always hated that advise for role playing reasons) perhaps try one level of Seeker of the Misty Isle prc (refluffed for your race/deity). It should be close to most ranger/swift hunter character concepts and it grants travel domain which can be switched for travel devotion.No turning to fuel it though. Besides, if you're going to be refluffing anyway, why not use a cleric? :smallconfused:

Godskook
2010-12-08, 03:23 PM
No turning to fuel it though. Besides, if you're going to be refluffing anyway, why not use a cleric? :smallconfused:

Its easier to go mad-libs on a prestige class's race/deity/etc flavor than it is to fluff the cleric out of a cleric.

Greenish
2010-12-08, 03:33 PM
Its easier to go mad-libs on a prestige class's race/deity/etc flavor than it is to fluff the cleric out of a cleric.Why? You can use the same fluff.

Seeker of the Misty Isle is practically swimming in fluff, it's not like it's any harder to change than a cleric.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-08, 03:42 PM
Scout 3 / Ranger 17
Base Attack +19
Feats: Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot(Free from Ranger), Manyshot (Free from Ranger), Improved Precise Shot (Free from Ranger), Greater Manyshot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)

Favored Enemies: Undead, Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Plants

If you choose these favored enemies, you can apply your skirmish damage to anything you hit.

Base Dexterity: 40 (+15)
At first level: 18
Racial Bonus: +2 (Elf)
4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th bonus: +5
Inherit Bonus: +5 (Tome of Dexterity+5: 136,500gp)
Enhancement Bonus: +6 (Gloves of Dexterity +6: 36,000gp)
Moral Bonus: +2 (Elation from Vest of Elation: 120,000gp)
Sacred Bonus: +2 (Grace from boots of Grace: 120,000gp)

Base Strength: 33 (+11)
At first level: 16
Inherit Bonus: +5 (Tome of Strength +5: 136,500gp)
Enhancement Bonus: +6 (Belt of Giant Strength: 36,000gp)
Moral Bonus: +2 (Elation)
Sacred Bonus: +4 (Righteous Fury from Mantle of Righteous Fury: 136,000gp)

Weapon: Composite Longbow (STR +11) +3 (Cost: 201,195 gold)
Exit Wound (+3) (Fires through target, +4 AC for each target in front, +1d6 damage)
Splitting (+3) (Doubles the arrows, make separate attack rolls for each arrow)
Psychokinetic (+1) (+1d4 force damage, can hit incorporeal targets)

Other magic items:
Goggles of Sniper’s Shot (8,000gp) – Allows you to use precision based damage at any range.
Headband of Arrow Mind (8,000gp) – Allows you to threaten with a bow and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when shooting with a bow.
Armbands of Guided Shot (8,000gp) – Your ranged attacks do not take a penalty due to distance.
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000gp)
Gnomish Twistcloth+5 (25,300gp)

Move Action: Move at least 20 feet from your current location.
Standard Action: Use Manyshot to fire 4 arrows at a single target within 30ft.
Attack bonus: +30
Base Attack: +19
Dexterity: +15
Enhancement: +3
Weapon Focus: +1
Manyshot: -8

With an average roll of 40, you can him most anything at level 20. The arrows will split into a total of 8 arrows mid-flight, so you will need to make 8 attack rolls.

Each arrow that hits will do 1d8+3 (Enhancement)+11 (Strength)+1d4 (Psychokinetic)+1d6 (Exit Wound)+7d6 (Skirmish) for damage potential of 23-74.

You could do up to 184-592 damage each round. And, that’s just to that single target. Since you have Exit Wound, if there are targets standing behind the first target, you can roll to hit them as well.

Let’s not forget that you also have Favored Enemy bonuses. So you could be doing even more damage depending on what you are fighting. Also, you could add a weapon crystal and do an additional 1d6 (fire, frost, acid, electricity) damage.

Needless to say, if you play your cards right, you can very easily take out very tough opponents.

Akal Saris
2010-12-08, 03:59 PM
The bizarre thing is that this thread is from 10 months ago, but my response to it then was just about identical to what I was planning on typing up anyways.

:smallconfused:

Curmudgeon
2010-12-08, 04:02 PM
More generally, I'm curious about interesting archer builds, because aside from this one, I haven't really looked into archery at all.
I made this one to address a feat issue for an archer, picking up useful feats from a variety of sources. Note the cheesy option is listed for completeness; I don't actually recommend that approach.


Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 1 (Complete Divine, page 61). Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

Eisirt
2010-12-15, 09:23 PM
Move Action: Move at least 20 feet from your current location.
Standard Action: Use Manyshot to fire 4 arrows at a single target within 30ft.
Attack bonus: +30
Base Attack: +19
Dexterity: +15
Enhancement: +3
Weapon Focus: +1
Manyshot: -8

With an average roll of 40, you can him most anything at level 20. The arrows will split into a total of 8 arrows mid-flight, so you will need to make 8 attack rolls.

Each arrow that hits will do 1d8+3 (Enhancement)+11 (Strength)+1d4 (Psychokinetic)+1d6 (Exit Wound)+7d6 (Skirmish) for damage potential of 23-74.

You could do up to 184-592 damage each round. And, that’s just to that single target. Since you have Exit Wound, if there are targets standing behind the first target, you can roll to hit them as well.

Let’s not forget that you also have Favored Enemy bonuses. So you could be doing even more damage depending on what you are fighting. Also, you could add a weapon crystal and do an additional 1d6 (fire, frost, acid, electricity) damage.

How do you get past the restriction in Manyshot?
Only the first arrow gets precision damage... see below.

From: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot
Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

Popertop
2010-12-16, 12:46 AM
do you get skirmish on every attack if you use it on a full attack?

what are some good ideas for enchantments to put on thrown weapons,
and how many should I shoot for?

is having splitting on every dagger I have a viable choice?

what other options are there for thrown weapon swift hunters?

MeeposFire
2010-12-16, 01:08 AM
1) Yes though it can be difficult to get full attacks if you have to move 10 feet per round. It takes things like travel devotion feat.

2) I do not think you can put splitting on a dagger.

3) Bows are usually better as you can use greater many shot to do 4 arrows all with skirmish every round (8 with splitting).

4) Best throwing builds usually want bloodstorm blade so you do not have to spend a mint on magical throwing weapons. Master thrower is nice as well though these would dilute your swift hunterness.

Darrin
2010-12-16, 01:16 AM
How do you get past the restriction in Manyshot?


By either using Greater Manyshot (which allows precision damage on each arrow) or some other method to move + full attack.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-16, 02:26 AM
is having splitting on every dagger I have a viable choice?
No, that's not legal at all. Splitting has a restriction:
must be a bow, crossbow, arrow, or bolt

Optimator
2010-12-16, 10:22 PM
I always liked the Wounding enhancement on bows. Especially for a greater many shot-using Swift Hunter.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-17, 09:06 AM
How do you get past the restriction in Manyshot?
Only the first arrow gets precision damage... see below.



Look in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. There is a feat in there called Greater Manyshot. It allows you to do precision based damage on every arrow fired, instead of just one of the arrows.

Person_Man
2010-12-17, 11:29 AM
Ranger 17 is generally taken for the yummy Hide in Plain Sight. Then again, it comes late and Stalker of Kharesh gets it much earlier. And Favored Enemy: Evil, which is just good.

I too am a fan of Stalker of Kharesh. If you do your progression right, you end up getting +10 vs. all Evil enemies. It's particularly nice when combined with the Wise to Your Ways feat (Ghostwalk - 3.0 material) which gives you your Favored Enemy bonus to most Saves against your Favored Enemy.

More importantly, it lets you pick 4 non-Evil enemies for your other Favored Enemies (constructs, elementals, etc), which allows your Skirmish damage to apply to pretty much everyone.

Darrin
2010-12-17, 01:25 PM
(Ghostwalk - 3.0 material)

Ghostwalk did get a 3.5 update.

(It wasn't a very thorough update, mind you... keep your filthy hands off my bargain-priced Gloves of Stori-- I mean, Gloves of the Master Strategist.)

Eldariel
2010-12-17, 02:04 PM
More importantly, it lets you pick 4 non-Evil enemies for your other Favored Enemies (constructs, elementals, etc), which allows your Skirmish damage to apply to pretty much everyone.

The huge advantage I find with FE: Evil is that it bypasses most of the annoying higher level NPCs (BBEG, high-level lieutenants, any other hostile organizations you may clash with) with Fortifications Armor, magical protection or similar that you wouldn't be bypassing otherwise unless you happened to guess the race correctly (god forbid you face such foes of different races). In general, things that lack native critical protection but have it from another source.

Outsiders, Humans or Dragons, chances are it's going to be Evil anyways so you get free bypass on those defenses. And since Undead are categorically Evil, it covers that too. I like Nemesis: Evil for the free Evildar and extra 1d6 you get with it.

Eisirt
2010-12-28, 07:22 PM
Other magic items:
Goggles of Sniper’s Shot (8,000gp) – Allows you to use precision based damage at any range.
Headband of Arrow Mind (8,000gp) – Allows you to threaten with a bow and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when shooting with a bow.
Armbands of Guided Shot (8,000gp) – Your ranged attacks do not take a penalty due to distance.

Anyone have an idea on where these items come from, haven't found them in the MIC or any of the books I have.

The Random NPC
2010-12-28, 07:46 PM
Those seem to be custom magic items, Arrow Mind and Sniper's Shot are spells in the Spell Compendium if i recall correctly.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-29, 02:09 AM
More generally, I'm curious about interesting archer builds,

had a recent thought about swifthunter archer. the psionic ranger variant from DSP (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/ranger) in a swift hunter build would be awesome because it selects powers from the psychic warrior list. animal afinity, psionic lions charge, etc (both good for a 2 weapon fighter. i think a psionic swift hunter with greater manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) would be awesome, dealing precision based damaged to each target for each arrow.

thoughts?

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 02:21 AM
What psychic warrior powers are especially valuable to an archer? I think there's skate for better move speed (for improved kiting ability, potentially, but probably not that useful usually) and expansion offhand, with expansion just being useful for becoming a bigger target and having higher base damage dice at the cost of a double penalty to one's ability to hit...:smallyuk: If one can threaten with the bow though, that does give reach to aid in preventing others from reaching one's self.

So I think I need my memory refreshed.

Edit: Hustle is, of course, always nice...

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-29, 02:54 AM
What psychic warrior powers are especially valuable to an archer? I think there's skate for better move speed (for improved kiting ability, potentially, but probably not that useful usually) and expansion offhand, with expansion just being useful for becoming a bigger target and having higher base damage dice at the cost of a double penalty to one's ability to hit...:smallyuk: If one can threaten with the bow though, that does give reach to aid in preventing others from reaching one's self.

So I think I need my memory refreshed.

Edit: Hustle is, of course, always nice...

i admit, it seems a better option for two weapon fighting. however, some feats like up the walls work great in a skirmish build. vampiric blade would be awesome if it could be applied to a bow + greater many shot. there are bunch of good defensive abilities, but generally youre right, bow isnt as good. still, a psionic swifthunter would be cool :smallbiggrin:

Forged Fury
2010-12-29, 08:42 AM
I put together a kalashtar swift hunter/seer, using Expanded Knowledge to pick up Dimension Hop. Good powers to enhance scouting and Dimension Hop was ruled to qualify for skirmish. Since I was already taking the BAB hit, I took Seer to 5th level. Dimension Hop can also be augmented to enable Improved Skirmish to activate. The kalashtar's racial power point boost also helps fuel the ability.

Not as effective as many true Swift Hunter combos, but I thought it was pretty appropriate for a Kalashtar swift hunter.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 09:39 AM
Anyone have an idea on where these items come from, haven't found them in the MIC or any of the books I have.

They are indeed custom magic items. They are all based on the spells in the name of the item.

Goggles of Sniper’s Shot (8,000gp) - Sniper's Shot (Sorcerer/Wizard 1st, Spell Compendium)
Headband of Arrow Mind (8,000gp) - Arrow Mind (Sorcerer/Wizard 1st, Spell Compendium)
Armbands of Guided Shot (8,000gp) - Guided Shot (Sorcerer/Wizard 1st, Spell Compendium)

You could put some of these effects on the same item. If you add two of the effects together, the cost would be 24,000. Example: Sniper Shot and Guided Shot on the same bracer would be 24,000. If you add all three together on the same item, the cost would be 32,000. Depending on your DM's ruleing, it may cost a little more if the spell does not fit the slot.

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 10:02 AM
They are indeed custom magic items. They are all based on the spells in the name of the item.
Psst, those are guidelines, not rules.
Meaning if such an item is possible, it will cost as much as the DM feels like.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 11:36 AM
Psst, those are guidelines, not rules.
Meaning if such an item is possible, it will cost as much as the DM feels like.

Well, these prices are based on the item creation rules in the DMG. If your DM uses different rules, then these prices are not accurate. Please check with your DM before buying these items.

ffone
2010-12-29, 11:50 AM
Well, these prices are based on the item creation rules in the DMG. If your DM uses different rules, then these prices are not accurate. Please check with your DM before buying these items.

Again - they are not rules (or entitlements), they are guidelines.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 12:06 PM
Again - they are not rules (or entitlements), they are guidelines.

They look like rules to me. I consider most of the stuff listed in the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide to be rules unless they have a sidebar that says "optional" or something.

And since you don't consider them "rules (or entitlements)", what do you think the cost of these items should be? Any archer and/or ranged skirmisher I build typically purchase these items.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-29, 12:14 PM
They look like rules to me. I consider most of the stuff listed in the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide to be rules unless they have a sidebar that says "optional" or something.
Here's the sidebar (from DMG page 282):
BEHIND THE CURTAIN: MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of magic items you invent. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table 7–33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values. So: those table prices are only guidelines, and aren't considered before the primary cost determining factor: matching to existing items with similar capabilities.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 12:17 PM
They look like rules to me. I consider most of the stuff listed in the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide to be rules unless they have a sidebar that says "optional" or something.

And since you don't consider them "rules (or entitlements)", what do you think the cost of these items should be? Any archer and/or ranged skirmisher I build typically purchase these items.


VARIANT: NEW MAGIC ITEMS
In the same way that you can invent new spells and monsters for your campaign, you can invent new magic items. In the same way that a PC spellcaster can research a new spell, a PC may be able to invent a new kind of magic item. And just as you have to be careful about new spells, you need to be careful with new magic items.

Use the magic item descriptions in this chapter as examples on which to base new magic items. A new magic item needs all the information that similar, existing magic items have, possibly including activation type, activation time, and caster level. You should also be ready to determine the market value of a new magic item, even one that the PCs simply find, in case a character wants to sell or duplicate it.


Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of magic items you invent. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.


Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values

That enough for you? (underlines added)

Let me find my copy of the SpC to see if the 8000 is a decent price...

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 12:18 PM
Here's the sidebar (from DMG page 282): So: those table prices are only guidelines, and aren't considered before the primary cost determining factor: matching to existing items with similar capabilities.

The price I quoted is the price as layed out by the rules/guidelines/options (or whatever you want to call them).:smalltongue:

If you think they should be different, then let me know what YOU think the price should be. These items are a "must have" for most ranged characters.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-29, 12:29 PM
If you think they should be different, then let me know what YOU think the price should be. These items are a "must have" for most ranged characters.
How are the ranged characters supposed to be making these items? They don't exist in any of the standard WotC books, so they require the Craft Wondrous Item feat to make.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 12:34 PM
Goggles of Sniper’s Shot (8,000gp) – Allows you to use precision based damage at any range.

Headband of Arrow Mind (8,000gp) – Allows you to threaten with a bow and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when shooting with a bow.

Armbands of Guided Shot (8,000gp) – Your ranged attacks do not take a penalty due to distance.

Guided Shot not only ignores distance, but gives you the effect of Improved Precise Shot, a feat with 11th level prerequisites.

So, the prices I'd suggest:
Continuous Sniper's Shot: 8,000gp
Continuous Arrow Mind: ...however much Gloves of Storing cost, and then a little bit. You get the same effect (attack both melee and ranged at will or close to will) but don't have to spend a swift action or enchant two weapons.
Continuous Guided Shot: 25,000gp (or less, depending on how much IPS is worth to you)
[hr]
EDIT:

How are the ranged characters supposed to be making these items? They don't exist in any of the standard WotC books, so they require the Craft Wondrous Item feat to make.

By being a 6th-level Ranger or having their Sor/Wiz friend make it, I imagine.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 12:37 PM
How are the ranged characters supposed to be making these items? They don't exist in any of the standard WotC books, so they require the Craft Wondrous Item feat to make.

Yes, most magic items require the appropriate item creation feat, but that gose without saying.:smallconfused:

Continuous Use Item
Spell Level (1st) x Caster Level (1st) x 2,000 gold = 2,000 gold.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4.

TOTAL COST = 8,000 gold

See, it's very simple to figure out the cost according to the "guidelines/rules/options". If your DM strays too far from this formula, you might as well go through the DMG and the Magic Item Compendium and re-write all the prices since the pre-made items pretty much follow these "guidelines/rules/options".

If your DM will not allow these three magic items, you might do well to get Scrolls, Wands, or Staffs with the spells Arrow Mind, Guided Shot, and Sniper Shot.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 12:40 PM
Continuous Use Item
Spell Level (1st) x Caster Level (1st) x 2,000 gold = 2,000 gold.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4.

TOTAL COST = 8,000 goldPsst, Arrow Mind has minutes/level duration.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 12:42 PM
Guided Shot not only ignores distance, but gives you the effect of Improved Precise Shot, a feat with 11th level prerequisites.

So, the prices I'd suggest:
Continuous Sniper's Shot: 8,000gp
Continuous Arrow Mind: ...however much Gloves of Storing cost, and then a little bit. You get the same effect (attack both melee and ranged at will or close to will) but don't have to spend a swift action or enchant two weapons.
Continuous Guided Shot: 25,000gp (or less, depending on how much IPS is worth to you)
<hr>
EDIT:


By being a 6th-level Ranger or having their Sor/Wiz friend make it, I imagine.

Wow, if you were my DM, I'd just get some scrolls or something. That's way too expensive. Or I would just dip one or two levels of Wizard/Sorcerer since they are all 1st level spells. :smallamused: Jeeze!

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 12:43 PM
Wow, if you were my DM, I'd just get some scrolls or something. That's way too expensive. Or I would just dip one or two levels of Wizard/Sorcerer since they are all 1st level spells. :smallamused: Jeeze!
Sniper's Shot is fine, Arrow Mind is priced using a similar item.

Guided Shot I just guessed at, but an 11th level ability with other benefits isn't going to be cheap.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 12:43 PM
Psst, Arrow Mind has minutes/level duration.

If Arrow Mind has minutes per level, then it would be even cheaper. It would only be 4,000 gold, not 8,000.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 12:51 PM
Sniper's Shot is fine, Arrow Mind is priced using a similar item.

Guided Shot I just guessed at, but an 11th level ability with other benefits isn't going to be cheap.

If your DM is like Siosilvar, then dip into two levels of Specialist Wizard (Divination) since they are all divination spells. You would need an intelligence of at least 11. Get a ring of Wizardry I. You can then memorize each spell 3 times per day, and that's without a high intelligence bonus. If your Intelligence is higher, you can then memorize more as needed.

If you have a lower intelligence, then pick up Sorcerer instead. Again, 11 charisma needed and you're good to go.

Don't forget that you can also make scrolls and/or potions of each spell. It wouldn't cost much to make a scroll or potion of each of these spells.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 12:52 PM
If your DM is like Siosilvar,

That was uncalled for.

EDIT: Though the idea is fine... you're using 2 levels and 20,000gp to avoid spending twice that for the same effects but constant. Who's too expensive now? You only get 20 levels in your career (and usually not even that).

Greenish
2010-12-29, 12:53 PM
Wow, if you were my DM, I'd just get some scrolls or something. That's way too expensive. Or I would just dip one or two levels of Wizard/Sorcerer since they are all 1st level spells. :smallamused: Jeeze!And then you'd pay in actions. They're all swift/immediate, so you can only use one of them per turn, and Sniper's Shot and Guided Shot only last one round, so you couldn't benefit from both (unless you're RKV or similar).

Then you could, as a focused diviner, cast them a grand total of 4 times a day.


By the by, were there any spells with duration of 1 round (not round/level) around when the guidelines were written? It seems the former should sport a larger cost multiplier.

[Edit]:
Don't forget that you can also make scrolls and/or potions of each spell. It wouldn't cost much to make a scroll or potion of each of these spells.Potions are standard action to drink. Scrolls are standard actions to read. Making a 1 round duration spell into either would be silly.

dextercorvia
2010-12-29, 01:04 PM
If your DM is like Siosilvar, then dip into two levels of Specialist Wizard (Divination) since they are all divination spells. You would need an intelligence of at least 11. Get a ring of Wizardry I. You can then memorize each spell 3 times per day, and that's without a high intelligence bonus. If your Intelligence is higher, you can then memorize more as needed.

If you have a lower intelligence, then pick up Sorcerer instead. Again, 11 charisma needed and you're good to go.

Don't forget that you can also make scrolls and/or potions of each spell. It wouldn't cost much to make a scroll or potion of each of these spells.

The are also Ranger spells -- and this is a Swift Hunter build, so I don't see how getting the spells is a problem. If you are going to dip something, dip Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion and DMM-Persist and persist those divine Ranger spells. Try to save a few turn attempts to fuel Travel Devotion. The feats you save on the Greater Manyshot tree you will probably spend on Extra Turning, and one set of Nightsticks will set you back less than you were planning on spending on any of the custom items.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 01:05 PM
[Edit]: Potions are standard action to drink. Scrolls are standard actions to read. Making a 1 round duration spell into either would be silly.

Actually I believe that's incorrect. I think scrolls take the same amount of time as the original spell, but I don't remember the source for that (Rules Compendium, maybe?).

And potions of personal spells are right out, so none of them will work.

dextercorvia
2010-12-29, 01:06 PM
Actually I believe that's incorrect. I think scrolls take the same amount of time as the original spell, but I don't remember the source for that (Rules Compendium, maybe?).

And potions of personal spells are right out, so none of them will work.

The RC does change it so that spell completion and spell trigger items take the same casting time as the original.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 01:07 PM
And then you'd pay in actions. They're all swift/immediate, so you can only use one of them per turn, and Sniper's Shot and Guided Shot only last one round, so you couldn't benefit from both (unless you're RKV or similar).

Then you could, as a focused diviner, cast them a grand total of 4 times a day.


By the by, were there any spells with duration of 1 round (not round/level) around when the guidelines were written? It seems the former should sport a larger cost multiplier.

[Edit]: Potions are standard action to drink. Scrolls are standard actions to read. Making a 1 round duration spell into either would be silly.


That was uncalled for.

EDIT: Though the idea is fine... you're using 2 levels and 20,000gp to avoid spending twice that for the same effects but constant. Who's too expensive now? You only get 20 levels in your career (and usually not even that).

What's uncalled for is having someone spend 30,000 gold on a magic item that duplicates a 1st level spell. That's crazy talk there.

You might as well just go full spellcaster to level 14 to get 7th level spells then have the effect persisted. Then from level 15-20, do Arcane Archer. Augment your effectiveness with spells to make up for the fact that you didn't take any Scout/Ranger for the Swift Hunter stuff.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 01:09 PM
The are also Ranger spells -- and this is a Swift Hunter build, so I don't see how getting the spells is a problem. If you are going to dip something, dip Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion and DMM-Persist and persist those divine Ranger spells. Try to save a few turn attempts to fuel Travel Devotion. The feats you save on the Greater Manyshot tree you will probably spend on Extra Turning, and one set of Nightsticks will set you back less than you were planning on spending on any of the custom items.

Oh, good one Dextercorvia. You're my new best friend on here. That's a pretty good combo for the Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 01:09 PM
Actually I believe that's incorrect. I think scrolls take the same amount of time as the original spell, but I don't remember the source for that (Rules Compendium, maybe?).Ah, right, I didn't remember it was also for spell completion items.

Well, pulling the scroll up is still a move action, unless you have that fancy scrollcase.

[Edit]:
What's uncalled for is having someone spend 30,000 gold on a magic item that duplicates a 1st level spell. That's crazy talk there.Yours were items that duplicated persisted 1st level spells, which, as you observed, are 7th level spells.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-29, 01:17 PM
All the build so far have only included 1 lvl of Scout, prolly to avoid unneeded BaB-loss. However, the feat Swift Hunter requires Skirmish (+1d6 damage, +1AC) which is obtained at Scout 4.

Probably worth mentioning that if you're already committed to taking 1 level in Scout, you don't lose any more BAB until 5th level...

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 01:18 PM
Ah, right, I didn't remember it was also for spell completion items.

Well, pulling the scroll up is still a move action, unless you have that fancy scrollcase.

[Edit]:Yours were items that duplicated persisted 1st level spells, which, as you observed, are 7th level spells.

The Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic is 5,200 gold and it has persistant Read Magic and Comprehend Languages. A 1st level spell and a 0th level spell.

8,000 gold still seems like the right price for Guided Shot and Sniper Shot.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 01:21 PM
The Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic is 5,200 gold and it has persistant Read Magic and Comprehend Languages. A 1st level spell and a 0th level spell.There's a difference between 10min/level non-combat spells and 1 round combat spells. Having the former always active is a nifty lil' thing, having the latter always active is very, very valuable.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 01:22 PM
What's uncalled for is having someone spend 30,000 gold on a magic item that duplicates a 1st level spell. That's crazy talk there.

A 1st level spell that duplicates an 11th level feat for 1 round.

Since you're so set in going by the guidelines, you should note that they're also intended to be compared to other items, even before you price with those guidelines.

30k for an 11th level ability is cheap when you can spend 25k to get a 2nd level ability (Evasion).

EDIT: By your interpretation, a continuous True Strike effect would still be that 8000gp. +20 to attack, by itself, is worth 400,000gp.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 01:32 PM
A 1st level spell that duplicates an 11th level feat for 1 round.

Since you're so set in going by the guidelines, you should note that they're also intended to be compared to other items, even before you price with those guidelines.

30k for an 11th level ability is cheap when you can spend 25k to get a 2nd level ability (Evasion).

EDIT: By your interpretation, a continuous True Strike effect would still be that 8000gp. +20 to attack, by itself, is worth 400,000gp.

True Strike only lasts for one attack, it dose not have a duration. Therefore it cannot be made persistant. Also, the guidelines do not allow for the calculation of True Strike as a continuous item.

Even if someone wanted to make a Continuous Item of True Strike in my world, they would only get the +20 attack bonus on one attack per day. It would still only be 8,000 gold if it could be made continuous.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 01:43 PM
The are also Ranger spells -- and this is a Swift Hunter build, so I don't see how getting the spells is a problem. If you are going to dip something, dip Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion and DMM-Persist and persist those divine Ranger spells. Try to save a few turn attempts to fuel Travel Devotion. The feats you save on the Greater Manyshot tree you will probably spend on Extra Turning, and one set of Nightsticks will set you back less than you were planning on spending on any of the custom items.

So, this is the new theoretical build to avoid having to spend outragous ammounts of money on items.

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16.

Persist Sniper Shot, Guided Shot, and Arrow Mind using Divine Metamagic (Persist). You still get 4 favored enemies and full Skirmish since Skirmish stops at 19th level.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 01:47 PM
True Strike only lasts for one attack, it dose not have a duration. Therefore it cannot be made persistant. Also, the guidelines do not allow for the calculation of True Strike as a continuous item.

Even if someone wanted to make a Continuous Item of True Strike in my world, they would only get the +20 attack bonus on one attack per day. It would still only be 8,000 gold if it could be made continuous.[Devil's Advocate] Oh, okay then. Use-activated true strike sword for 2000gp. It's cheaper and automatically activates with every swing! [/Devil's Advocate]

True Strike was just an example. My point is
...match the new item to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines...that you have to compare to other items and what you actually get.

EDIT: As an aside, could you please use the edit button instead of double posting?
Double Posting
Posting twice in a row is generally frowned upon. If you are responding to multiple points, please use quotes and other post formatting to clarify this. Please use the Edit option to modify information in a post instead of immediately making a new one. If you do accidentally double post, you can delete the extra post under the Edit option.

Fastmover
2010-12-29, 01:57 PM
I think I remember somebody posting a build using mix between the Duskblade and the Arcane Archer that was really good, but I can't find it now.

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 02:30 PM
I think I remember somebody posting a build using mix between the Duskblade and the Arcane Archer that was really good, but I can't find it now.
Duskblade/Arcane Archer on a Swift Hunter? I can't imagine how this would be good, actually.

Akal Saris
2010-12-29, 02:42 PM
So, this is the new theoretical build to avoid having to spend outragous ammounts of money on items.

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16.

Persist Sniper Shot, Guided Shot, and Arrow Mind using Divine Metamagic (Persist). You still get 4 favored enemies and full Skirmish since Skirmish stops at 19th level.

Think about how many turn undead attempts that will require. That's 21 turn attempts, before using any for travel devotion, and you probably want about ~9 attempts for 4 combats/day of travel devotion. So 30 turn attempts. That's either outrageous amounts of nightstick stacking, which few DMs will allow, or all of your feats besides swift hunter, extend, persist, and DMM (Persist).


I think I remember somebody posting a build using mix between the Duskblade and the Arcane Archer that was really good, but I can't find it now.

Carnivore's arcane archer:

Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, I believe. BAB +20, CL 20

Forged Fury
2010-12-29, 02:47 PM
Carnivore's arcane archer:

Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, I believe. BAB +20, CL 20I think that's where we were all confused. It's not a Swift Hunter build.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 02:54 PM
Think about how many turn undead attempts that will require. That's 21 turn attempts, before using any for travel devotion, and you probably want about ~9 attempts for 4 combats/day of travel devotion. So 30 turn attempts. That's either outrageous amounts of nightstick stacking, which few DMs will allow, or all of your feats besides swift hunter, extend, persist, and DMM (Persist).



Carnivore's arcane archer:

Duskblade 5/Arcane Archer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, I believe. BAB +20, CL 20

In this case, you would probably want to find some way of getting a pretty high Charisma for extra turn attempts.

Play a Venerable character (-6 STR, DEX, CON, +3 INT, WIS, CHA), get Zen Archery so you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier for archery. Then just optimize your Charisma for maximum turn attempts. You may also have to take some Extra Turning feats.

Edit: In most builds I've seen, they use Greater Manyshot so you don't have to use the Travel Devotion to get your extra Skirmish.

Example: Move Action - Move 20 feet.
Standard Action - Greater Manyshot (4 arrows)

With the magical enchantment of splitting on the bow, that is 8 arrows, all doing skirmish damage.

Fastmover
2010-12-29, 02:54 PM
Sorry I should have clarified better, but thanks Akal :D That's the one.

Forged Fury
2010-12-29, 03:20 PM
Edit: In most builds I've seen, they use Greater Manyshot so you don't have to use the Travel Devotion to get your extra Skirmish.
A lot of us look for ways to avoid spending all those feats for the ability to skirmish on a full attack. If only PBS wasn't a pre-req for Precise Shot...

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 03:40 PM
A lot of us look for ways to avoid spending all those feats for the ability to skirmish on a full attack. If only PBS wasn't a pre-req for Precise Shot...

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and then Greater Manyshot.

Most of these you get as bonus feats for going up in levels of Ranger. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot are all free for the Ranged Ranger.

Forged Fury
2010-12-29, 03:57 PM
Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and then Greater Manyshot.

Most of these you get as bonus feats for going up in levels of Ranger. Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot are all free for the Ranged Ranger.
Right, but some folks prefer to take more Scout than Ranger. Rapid Shot is really the only one you need of the above if you figure out a way to get a swift action 20' move (PBS is okay, Manyshots unnecessary, and Improved Precise Shot largely replacable with the Seeking property). Obviously, the BAB and HP loss hurt, but it allows you to pick up HiPS while still being able to dip another class. If you go Ranger over Scout, you won't be able to pick HiPS up if you dip another class, barring possible PrCs.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 04:14 PM
Right, but some folks prefer to take more Scout than Ranger. Rapid Shot is really the only one you need of the above if you figure out a way to get a swift action 20' move (PBS is okay, Manyshots unnecessary, and Improved Precise Shot largely replacable with the Seeking property). Obviously, the BAB and HP loss hurt, but it allows you to pick up HiPS while still being able to dip another class. If you go Ranger over Scout, you won't be able to pick HiPS up if you dip another class, barring possible PrCs.

You don't need a "swift action" to move 20 feet. All you need to do is move 20 feet or more normally. Then use a standard action to use Greater Manyshot. You get to fire 4 arrows (8 with splitting enchantment on bow) and each one will do skirmish damage. That's a lot easier than trying to figure out how to get a free 20ft of movement each round.

Hide in plane sight is overrated. Pick up a ring of invisibility and boots of elvenkind.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 04:16 PM
Hide in plane sight is overrated. Pick up a ring of invisibility and boots of elvenkind.Many, many things can see through invisibility.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 04:17 PM
Many, many things can see through invisibility.

About as many things can see through Hide in Plane Sight.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 04:18 PM
About as many things can see through Hide in Plane Sight.I don't know about Plane Sight, but pumping up your Hide check 'till most anything can't match it isn't too hard.

Forged Fury
2010-12-29, 04:38 PM
I don't know about Plane Sight, but pumping up your Hide check 'till most anything can't match it isn't too hard.
Agree with Greenish, it's an opposed check. It really depends on how much you choose to max your Hide skill. You really have to have an opponent with an equally high Spot skill or some other form of detecting you to be pinpointed. It's really quite good.

The key thing is to figure out how to move 20' as a swift action and still maintain a +16 BAB. Add Rapid Shot and Haste/Speed and you're up to 6 attacks/round with skirmish. Splitting makes it 12 arrows.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 04:40 PM
Agree with Greenish, it's an opposed check. It really depends on how much you choose to max your Hide skill. You really have to have an opponent with an equally high Spot skill or some other form of detecting you to be pinpointed. It's really quite good.

Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, Detect Thoughts, Detect Hostil Intent, Detect Magic, etc....

Even without rolling an opposed check, there are many things that can get past Hide in Plane Sight.

Plus, if you really want Hide in Plane Sight, just wait one more level and you've got it on this build.

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16. At level 21 you'd have Hide in Plane Sight.

Eldariel
2010-12-29, 04:42 PM
About as many things can see through Hide in Plane Sight.

No. See Invisibility is a second level spell. And available on common magic items like Hand of Glory which you'd want for the extra Ring-slot anyways. With Darkstalker Hide can also protect you from Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight and so on. Furthermore, many outsiders have True Seeing active constantly, and Invisibility doesn't hide your magic auras making it meh against Detect Magic, Aura Sight and such. Oh, and Hide generally goes hand-in-hand with high Move Silently; Invisibility cannot stop Listen from pinpointing you (+20 DC) and tons of creatures have high natural Listen. Silence is not a Wizard-spell, and is an AoE which disrupts your casting, and makes you somewhat easy to detect anyways if someone ends up in the AoE and realizes no sounds originate from there.

Invisibility is very good but higher up, you really need Superior Invisibility or HiPS+Darkstalker for somewhat reliable stealth. Invisibility still has its uses but being entirely undetectable is not one of them. Oh, and Spot-checks eventually scale so you really need Hide to avoid them. This is especially true with high HD monsters like Dragons.


Far as custom magic items go, no. Getting any spell permanently from a magic item isn't something you can rely on. The guidelines are just that, guidelines, and the DM honestly should be the one making those, not the player. Your character should be able to provide the spells he needs himself; you shouldn't need casters for that. This is why Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is so very key; you get all the spells you want from the first 5 levels and have enough slots to greatly utilize them. Though even just standard Ranger can make decent use out of them.


Personal favorite Swift Hunter-build is Mystic Ranger 9/Scout 5/Stalker of Kharesh 4/Unseen Seer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 - Stalker of Kharesh gets HiPS on 4.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-29, 04:44 PM
Personal favorite Swift Hunter-build is Mystic Ranger 9/Scout 5/Stalker of Kharesh 4/Unseen Seer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 - Stalker of Kharesh gets HiPS on 4.

Where did you get the "Mystic Ranger"?

Forged Fury
2010-12-29, 04:48 PM
Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, Detect Thoughts, Detect Hostil Intent, Detect Magic, etc....Many of those are incapable of pinpointing (or provide concealement at the least). Most of the spells require multiple rounds to pinpoint.


Plus, if you really want Hide in Plane Sight, just wait one more level and you've got it on this build.
I'm not sure Epic works that way. HiPS would be considered a new class feature. Most builds are done pre-Epic in any event.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 05:04 PM
Where did you get the "Mystic Ranger"?Dragon Mag #336. Loses animal companion, delays FE and style feats, loses proficiency with martial melee weapons. Gains casting from level 1, spell levels 0-5.

Eldariel
2010-12-29, 05:07 PM
Dragon Mag #336. Loses animal companion, delays FE and style feats, loses proficiency with martial melee weapons. Gains casting from level 1, spell levels 0-5.

The key is, of course, that you still get 3 FEs by level 14 which combined with Stalker of Kharesh 4 gets you FE: Evil (which covers Undead) and 3 normally immune types. You also still retain +5d6 base Skirmish damage (though your AC bonus will be lower). And you'll have level 13 Mystic Ranger casting which is good enough to get you a couple of 5th level slots.

Akal Saris
2010-12-29, 05:42 PM
Personal favorite Swift Hunter-build is Mystic Ranger 9/Scout 5/Stalker of Kharesh 4/Unseen Seer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 - Stalker of Kharesh gets HiPS on 4.

Looks like a strong build to me. What does it end up with, CL 14 (18)?

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 06:13 PM
Arcanists, Constructs, Elementals, and Evil?

Elementals, Constructs, Plants, and Evil?

Arcanists, Elementals, Constructs, and Evil?

Greenish
2010-12-29, 06:20 PM
Looks like a strong build to me. What does it end up with, CL 14 (18)?13, Unseen Seer only advances arcane casting.

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 06:30 PM
13, Unseen Seer only advances arcane casting.
You cast as a Mystic Ranger 13, but CL is 6. Mystic Rangers don't get full CL, they are limited to 1/2 class level as CL just as normal Rangers are.

Eldariel
2010-12-29, 06:45 PM
Looks like a strong build to me. What does it end up with, CL 14 (18)?

CL 7 assuming you can use Sword of the Arcane Order to advance Mystic Ranger casting with Unseen Seer. But yeah, CL isn't really relevant due to the swift action short duration nature of most of the spells. Of course, should you wish to DMM: Persist the Archery-buffs that changes and it may be preferable to seek to bind the CL to some static value (you do get BAB 18 by fractionals, after all). That said, the feats are a bit sparse for that anyways, so I'm not sure it's really worth it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-29, 07:02 PM
You cast as a Mystic Ranger 13, but CL is 6. Mystic Rangers don't get full CL, they are limited to 1/2 class level as CL just as normal Rangers are.

Really? was this intended or an accidental omission it seems weird that a Ranger that had forgone training in weapons (or at least melee) to have a deeper connection to nature (and magic) would have such a low CL.

Eldariel
2010-12-29, 07:30 PM
Really? was this intended or an accidental omission it seems weird that a Ranger that had forgone training in weapons (or at least melee) to have a deeper connection to nature (and magic) would have such a low CL.

Well, that's the RAW. Quite possibly an omission, but still, reading the Dragon nothing refers to Ranger CL in any way.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-29, 07:34 PM
A pity in any case... though one could make an argument for houserulling Mystic Rangers to get full CL or at least more than a half

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 07:40 PM
A pity in any case... though one could make an argument for houserulling Mystic Rangers to get full CL or at least more than a half

Considering they have spellcasting at every level, yeah. I don't think there's any other class in the game that gets spellcasting at every level and doesn't have at least a 1 for 1 rate for that sort of thing.

So since it's apparently not specified(?) I'd say the assumption is that they have the 1 for 1 ratio, otherwise they have a CL of 0 at 1st level.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-29, 09:37 PM
I'm not sure Epic works that way. HiPS would be considered a new class feature. Most builds are done pre-Epic in any event.
Epic levels mostly work the same way as pre-Epic, until you get past level 20 in a specific class. So Ranger 17 at character level 21 will provide all the usual Special and Spells per Day stuff. What's different is the Epic advancement of AB (always +1 every odd character level) and saves (always +1 to all 3 every even character level).

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 09:40 PM
Considering they have spellcasting at every level, yeah. I don't think there's any other class in the game that gets spellcasting at every level and doesn't have at least a 1 for 1 rate for that sort of thing.

So since it's apparently not specified(?) I'd say the assumption is that they have the 1 for 1 ratio, otherwise they have a CL of 0 at 1st level.
RAI could be that, yes. It could just as likely not be as well; giving Mystic Ranger a weak point looks fine in my book.
RAW, however, is pretty clear on the CL thing. If you can get shooting star ranger to help fix it, get it.