Non-ranged scout?

[Admiral Squish]

Can it be done? My basic concept revolved around a spiked chain to allow for some freedom and a whole mess of tumble checks. Possibly a few throw-able weapons for backup. I THINK skirmish damage applies on AoOs made that turn, but I'm not sure. I really like the idea of a highly mobile fighter ducking in and out of combat, rolling through enemy's legs and striking their backs and all that sort of thing. Can the playground help make this a viable idea?

[Akal Saris]

Sure it can be done! :smallbiggrin:

For starters, you'll probably want a 1 or 2 level dip in barbarian, and you'll probably be best off to invest in the two-weapon fighting style rather than a Spiked chain. Using the lion totem variant from C. Champion, you'll get pounce, and the Whirling Frenzy variant from Unearthed Arcana can get you an extra attack each round (with +4 Str/Dex instead of Str/Con if I recall).

After that, you might consider going scout/ranger with the swift hunter feat, which stacks scout and ranger for favored enemy and skirmish.

By the way, if you enjoy highly mobile fighter types, here's a thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.) you might love. It's about optimizing the blade bravo: a gnome prestige class that is all about running between your opponents' legs and stabbing them in the crotch.

Other good resources:

The scout's handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook)

The swift hunter's handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872750/The_Swift_Hunters_Handbook_--_2007)

[Draz74]

I can't remember the details of how it works, but IIRC the Scout Riposte Variant from the Cityscape Web Enhancement would be worth your while to read.

[Ormur]

If you can get a tumble check of 40 you can 5-foot step 10 feet to activate skirmish. It can be useful if you're in melee and can't charge the next enemy with pounce, you'll just go through his legs and attack the same guy from the other side. It's probably not doable until the higher levels but you really only need 30 as a skill modifier plus belt of ultimate athleticism and tumble will help avoiding attacks of opportunity until you get the required amount.

[Shyftir]

You could use a reach weapon then get spring attack, and its follow up feats. Sure you likely get only that one attack but as a scout, landing that one attack at top BAB for massive damage is kinda the name of the game.

[Jayngfet]

Yeah, it can be done. With ranger levels for two weapon fighting and an animal companion for extra damage, followed by some barbarian for hitpoint and damage bonuses. Optimal weapons here bastard sword and shortsword. Pick up some alchemical weapon capsules planned around enchantments designed solely to deal damage rather than boost crit or achieve effects.

The trick is to barely pay attention to AC. Your main job is to zoom across the battlefield and dispatch mooks with large, consistent damage. Leave the wizard and critmasters to deal with big guys. Most mooks are your size category or close, and make up most of the campanes enemies. You'll be smashing through random encounters and mooks surrounding bossfights with ease, zipping across the room with an animal companion and dealing insane damage.

[Teron]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) is a list of ways to move at least 10 feet and full attack in the same round. Many of them can be used to make a melee scout viable.

[Greenish]

Optimal weapons here longsword and shortsword.Fixed. Going from longsword's d8 to bastard sword's d10 is not worth a feat. If you really, really wish to spend a feat on EWP, take something properly silly, such as Notbora (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/weaponsb.pl?Notbora).

[RagnaroksChosen]

yes skirmish applys to all damage done within the round so it does work on AoO's.

I think thats an interesting concept. never though of it...

I played a posion dusk lizardfolk skirmisher who used a long spear so he could keep moving and attacking ... mid level game (6-10), it was alot of fun. cept against things with reach.


But I wouldn't wast a feat on a spiked chain. no matter how good it is.

Though actualy if you where to do a scout ranger tripper that may work?

Human
scout 4/ranger 16
Going scout3 ranger 1/ scout 1/ranger 15
1. combat reflexes
b. combat expertise
3. improved trip
4b swift hunter
6. improved skirmish
9. power attack
etc

[Sinfire Titan]

I can't remember the details of how it works, but IIRC the Scout Riposte Variant from the Cityscape Web Enhancement would be worth your while to read.

Doesn't work with Swift Hunter. If House Ruled to work, it becomes a good idea and combos well with Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike.


But Swift Hunter is a good idea for any Scout. Even more-so if you go TWFing.

[Person_Man]

Yes, it can be done. But keep in mind that the Scout is a pretty weak class. You can replicate ALL of it's class abilities with magic items or feats. And no matter what you do with Skirmish/Riposte/whatever, your damage output is going to be much lower then any similar build using a full BAB class and Power Attack feats. So my opinion is that you should play to your strong points instead - mobility and Skills.

Use your Flawless Stride and Fast Movement. Work with an ally capable of creating difficult terrain (any full caster and/or anyone with Turn Undead and Earth Devotion). Your goal is to move around and distract the enemy, using a battlefield control combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) of your choice any any magic items/feats that you can find that slow your enemies down (net, Hamstring feat, Hinder feat, Spell Storing weapon). Again, let me reiterate that your goal is to frustrate the enemy, slow down their movement, and get them attacking you and not the other party members.

You might also want to look at the Cunning Evasion (PHBII) feat. Whenever you successfully use Evasion, you can take a 5 ft step and Hide as an Immediate Action. It's an excellent feat to take after your Hide in Plain Site kicks in at level 14. Buy a magic item that gives you Energy Resistance (in case you fail your Save) and have an ally dump area of effect spells on you and your enemies. This will have four beneficial effects: Enemies take damage, you can Hide (avoiding attacks until your turn), you can then move to a different square (making it harder for enemies to target you and potentially moving you into a better position to attack), and your movement potentially triggers Skirmish.

But in general, in order for a Scout to work effectively you need to sit down with your party and work together as a team. Otherwise you'll just be a nerfed Rogue.

[Curmudgeon]

Scout has few strengths and many weaknesses. Generally speaking, the class is ineffective until you solve the 10' move + full attack problem. Even then, it's best used in combination with multiclassing feats such as Swift Hunter (with mostly Ranger levels) and Swift Ambusher (with mostly Rogue levels). Ranger has full BAB, spells, and a good assortment of class abilities; Rogue has sneak attack (twice as damaging as skirmish, and easier to effect) and more class skills. Scout's best abilities (like Hide in Plain Sight, Free Movement, and Blindsight) come only at high levels (14th, 18th, and 20th, respectively) when the class has dropped hopelessly behind other classes in relative usefulness.

[Admiral Squish]

Wow, this a lot more help than I expected.

So, in order!

@ Akal Saris
A very helpful post! Both those links are very useful, I'm still looking them over but I already have a bunch of ideas. As for blade bravo... Nice, but I'd rather punt a gnome than play one. The barbarian dip sounds really useful, though.

@Draz74
Riposite... Seems useful, but I don't have a way to make them attack me, and I'm not nearly tanky enough for it anyway.

@Ormur
Useful! If they make a ring of +10 jump, why not one of +10 tumble? Then a high dex and pouring points in it, I could pull off a pretty reliable 10-foot-step.

@ Shyftir
Good advice!

@Jayngfet
Alchemical weapon capsules seem like they're more work than they're good for. As for bastard sword/short sword, that seems a tad silly. If I'm gonna spend a feat to do it, I'm gonna put monkey grip on a longsword, it's better damage anyways.

As for your mookslayer suggestion, there's not ALWAYS gonna be mooks. Massive single bossfights, or small teams of elite opponents...

@ Teron
Yes! Thank you! Very useful!

@ Greenish
...that weapon weirds me out.

@ RagnaroksChosen
I don't know about tripper. If I trip them on an AoO, i wouldn't be able to move properly. Also, it would make them not provoke any more attacks, especially if they're trying to get past me.

@ Sinfire Titan
I think I know Robilar's gambit, but what's kharmic strike do?

@ Person_Man
I'm aware it's a weak class, I mostly want to play it for flavor.

Where are Hamstring and Hinder to be found?

Teamwork is key!

[Frosty]

Hmm...be a Warforged so you can get in that extra Slam attack on top of TWF!

[Admiral Squish]

Hmm...be a Warforged so you can get in that extra Slam attack on top of TWF!

Don't you have your hands free to slam?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Scout/Ranger (TWF version) with Swift Hunter would work advantagously here. Maybe go into Dervish as well...

[Sinfire Titan]

Don't you have your hands free to slam?

Slams can be done with legs, shoulders, and your head.

[Admiral Squish]

Slams can be done with legs, shoulders, and your head.

YES. That is an awesome rule. Iron headbutt!

[RagnaroksChosen]

Wow, this a lot more help than I expected.

@ RagnaroksChosen
I don't know about tripper. If I trip them on an AoO, i wouldn't be able to move properly. Also, it would make them not provoke any more attacks, especially if they're trying to get past me.



Well.
To start tripping them on an AoO doesn't hinder you from moving.
Actualy it increases mobility.
Don't forget with improved trip you get a follow up attack.
So in one round you can

It makes them waste an action getting up.
which provokes another AoO. So you trip them on an AoO and then they need to get back up which provokes another AoO. And remember as long as you moved 10ft (20ft with improved skirmish) you get all your skirmish damage.

[Admiral Squish]

Well.
To start tripping them on an AoO doesn't hinder you from moving.
Actualy it increases mobility.
Don't forget with improved trip you get a follow up attack.
So in one round you can

It makes them waste an action getting up.
which provokes another AoO. So you trip them on an AoO and then they need to get back up which provokes another AoO. And remember as long as you moved 10ft (20ft with improved skirmish) you get all your skirmish damage.

Ahhhhh. See, I never noticed that part of the feat. Changes EVERYTHING!

[RagnaroksChosen]

Ahhhhh. See, I never noticed that part of the feat. Changes EVERYTHING!

ya i've wanted to make more trippy builds latly...

that sounded weird

[Admiral Squish]

ya i've wanted to make more trippy builds latly...

that sounded weird

More than a little.