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View Full Version : [3.5] We need a Cleric! Ohh well, time to draw straws



mikej
2010-02-24, 06:11 AM
Ohh hai

After a long msn conversation with one of my buddies, I remembered the old D&D fault of nobody wants to heal anybody. It was a discussion on what the bets are that the real life players would play in the next campaign. We both agreed that nobody would play the Cleric willingly. Which lead me to think of this topic. I know a few lurk here on these forums soo I'd like say I'm not bashing anymore but I'll put up a spoiler tag regardless.

Our group from my generally observation tend to be more damage dealing focus. It's problematic as if one would pull out ahead in damage the rest would be useless. It's rare to see a focused support character ( unless it's me ), or a good Cleric ( that's usually my online msn/buddy. although doesn't play directly anymore ), he's played the DMM: Persist version. Soo it's not that they're not good. Cleric is one of the best classes in 3.5 edition.

edit: I can't really judge them or other players. I was obsessed once with rolling dozens of d6's. Afterwards, one of my strongest characters never rolled a single dice of damage. Just debuff with rays and Glitterdust. Often persist buffed the melee char and sat in the back drinking tea.

It's just does every group have this problem? Often hear jokes ( the one mentioned in the title ) but I'm just curious. Nothing about my group just other groups in general.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-02-24, 06:19 AM
Yes, the rest of my group seems to despise playing anything that doesn't allow tossing huge amounts of damage dice. I'm the only one in the group who's ever played a Cleric, and I once played a Sorc who was part damage but part debuffing (classics like Glitterdust, of course.) The only other character who was remotely possible of healing was a Paladin, and he was more focused on attacking as well, pretty much only healing when absolutely needed or after the battle.

However, one person other than me did figure out that Wizards have better things to do than spam Evocations. He turned on the party petrified one, sent another to another plane, and left the other one unharmed (but still paralyzed from the Mass Hold Person he cast on them). He did that with Prismatic Spray. And then he was promptly slaughtered by the Solar that had been watching the events and was pissed that the Paladin was nearly killed. So yeah.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 06:19 AM
Clerics can be very powerful characters. Healbot Clerics are not an example.


Your healing should be done post-combat; healing during combat is usually a waste of actions.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-24, 06:37 AM
My group didn't have this problem. Mainly because most of us would run with Healer's belts (sometimes several), And I'd always tell them that if it was presumed that I was going to be the Band Aid, that I'd start charging for it. Temples do need donations after all.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-02-24, 06:45 AM
+1

Clerics rock!

The only time I encountered this was from people who thought somebody spamming clw in combat was a necessary role. They were easily the most useless member of the group followed by the vanilla tank; the other three being straight druid, feral barbarian/berzerker and a bard/warblade/jade phoenix mage. They whined and whined and claimed the group owed them for playing a cleric and that the party owed their character for ineffectual heals (under 50 per turn) more that it owed the buffer for adding 15 or so damage to the feral multiattackers 6 attacks, the wildshaped to fleshraker druid's 5 attacks and the fleshraker animal companions 5 attacks and the vannilla tanks 3. Oh, and the bard was casting close wounds liberally.

/rant

you have havy armor if you want a good weapon you can get it through the war domain, you can self buff till you out damage and hit and AC tank classes. You have battlefield control spells not as good as the wizard but, still good. Close wounds is a great spell once you hit lvl 8-9 and 2nd lvl spells are pretty much a non resource. it is a swift action close range heal for 1d4+CL and it prevents death and unconsciousness if you cast it imeadiatly after a hit and it brings your target above -10 or 0.

This isn't even approaching optimization with tricks like Divine Meta magic and classes like church inquisitor.

Ormur
2010-02-24, 06:59 AM
Well a party I DM for didn't have a healer but there were only three of them and I know they've all happily played clerics so that wasn't the issue. I just let the unarmed VoP swordsage take a Healer cohort. It can't do anything but heal in combat and the player also gets to melee.

Tyrmatt
2010-02-24, 07:01 AM
I play Cleric a bit but we never get to high levels so I'm rarely CODzilla. I have nothing against healing but then I also get to be the roleplaying face of the party most of the time which keeps me occupied. That and I can still help flank and bust out the big guns when it matters.

Then again, healer just became my defacto role in almost any RPG. In the MMOs I played, I was always a character with healing. Usually not the most potent type of healer, but one who could be counted on for sheer versatility. My playing of druid in WoW allowed me and two friends to effectively 3 man a large number of challenges that should've taken a full party or more with some careful planning, cunning and a whole lotta abuse of the dodge mechanics.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 07:13 AM
Remind them of the spells flame strike and fire storm. They'll want to be a cleric soon enough.

onthetown
2010-02-24, 07:16 AM
I enjoy playing Clerics but it's hard to in the campaign I'm playing... they don't get as much "screen time" as the other classes. I found a lot less opportunity for roleplaying with my first one, and I ended up being so frustrated by her that I happily let her be killed off for the sake of story and the DM took up a Cleric until we got another one.

To remedy the previous situation, I created an evil drow priestess of Lolth Cleric. She was more interesting and got a lot more time than the other one, but still not as much as the other classes. That said, I never got frustrated with her and I played her right to epic. She only recently got killed off, for the sake of story as well (she was evil, after all, and the characters didn't exactly trust her... but she was retired so I'm fine with it).

I guess I'll play a Cleric if I'm able to make her interesting to the other players enough that they want to interact with her. Otherwise she just ends up being another character sheet on a pile... I'm becoming rather infamous for having way too many characters, but they're all worth playing when the situation needs them. The first Cleric? I avoid her like the plague.

I think it's a matter of just making them stand out a little more in the group. Also, it doesn't help that they can pull off spells that threaten the other classes' contribution. I've seen Flamestrike end a battle in one turn; the Wizard was not happy with having the blasting taken over by the healer.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 07:16 AM
You don't NEED a cleric. You need healing. The two are very, very different.

Healing, for example, can be cheaply picked up as wands or belts of healing. If you start at level 1, you may want a pot or two to get you to that point.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-24, 07:47 AM
Clerics can be very powerful characters. Healbot Clerics are not an example.


Your healing should be done post-combat; healing during combat is usually a waste of actions.

There are exceptions: like is there is a glass cannon type character (huge hps, but low AC) so hit for alot (power attack). They can get pretty hurt and likely die without a Cure here and there.

But yeah, most healing should be in finale.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-24, 07:47 AM
You don't NEED a cleric. You need healing. The two are very, very different.

Healing, for example, can be cheaply picked up as wands or belts of healing. If you start at level 1, you may want a pot or two to get you to that point.

Also, anyone with ranks in Craft: Alchemy can make healing items as well.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 07:59 AM
I like healing with Eldritch Disciple. I can zap the entire party with a healing Eldritch Cone or Eldritch Chain a few times per battle, even more with some Nightsticks. And I can still cast Heal, the Vigor line, Recitation etc.

The funniest part is that Hellfire Warlock can boost my healing to crazy levels. "Accept Hell's healing power!"

Fitz
2010-02-24, 08:17 AM
ok couple of points here.

1: not all games allow buying of lots of helaing belts , wands etc. depends on the setting.
2: it takes a mindset change to get away from the first aid-kit cleric. and if the whole party is like that it is harder as you are contantly expected to just heal (had complaints for wasting spells that could be used to heal party members before : spells in question Slay living(death domain) and dismissal..both of which ended the fight)

as usual out of character diplomacy might help here, at various points the party will need some magical healing (unless you are prepared to have the party slowly heal naturally!) there are various ways to do this, however the game should be fun for everyone. So the party needs to let the Cleric player feel they do more than just "bandage the real heroes". Also it helps to get away from the party mindset that value is only in damage done in hit points.

Fitz

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 08:22 AM
Also, anyone with ranks in Craft: Alchemy can make healing items as well.

Oh yeah, that's hardly an exaustive list. Find some way to get a cure spell added to someone's spell list. Play warforged, and have the arcanist use Repair. Hire a cleric chump to follow you around and heal, as per the DMG rules. Pay for a pre-adventure casting of vigor or lesser vigor, then persist/extend it.

There are a ridiculous number of ways to get healing outside of a PC-run healbot. If nobody WANTS to run a healbot, find one or more of those ways and use them. Any of them is superior to making someone play a char he dislikes.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 08:53 AM
ok couple of points here.

1: not all games allow buying of lots of helaing belts , wands etc. depends on the setting.

DMs who deny players items are all ready bad in my book. DMs who deny players Core healing items are far worse.


2: it takes a mindset change to get away from the first aid-kit cleric. and if the whole party is like that it is harder as you are contantly expected to just heal (had complaints for wasting spells that could be used to heal party members before : spells in question Slay living(death domain) and dismissal..both of which ended the fight)

This is where optimization comes into play. If one player starts optimizing, the encounters will be slightly easier until the rest of the party realizes it. If they don't, then have the optimizer stop contributing for a few encounters. The rest of the table should notice the difficulty spike fairly quickly.



No party needs a Cleric to heal. (http://http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal) We've known this for years, it just took OW4 to actually say it.

unre9istered
2010-02-24, 11:02 AM
I've played several games with no cleric. One game I played was a fighter/scout/dervish, a Vassal of Bahamut Paladin, and a Sorcerer/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. The Magus did 90% of the healing with wands and at higher levels scrolls of Heal. When the paladin did actually heal, he used wands too.

Grumman
2010-02-24, 11:20 AM
Two ways I like of providing healing without a conventional healer:

(Warforged) Crusader 5 / Hellreaver 5 / Binder 1 / Crusader +9 w/Extra Granted Maneuver
A tank that can heal people while beating people up, indefinitely. You have the best three Devoted Spirit healing maneuvers, Martial Spirit, and the ability to heal people for 20 points of damage every round as a swift action.

Trickster Spellthief 2 / Wizard 3 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Wizard PrC 5 w/Master Spellthief
Since the Trickster Spellthief variant can pick spells off the Bard spell list, this lets you convert any 1st level spell slot possessed by an ally into a Cure Light Wounds, or a 2nd level spell slot into Cure Moderate Wounds. Oh, and you've got 18/20 wizard spellcasting.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-24, 11:42 AM
Want to be useful in combat? Take War/Strength domains. You get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, and Feat of Strength (STR +1/level). Around level 3, your attack bonus will be only -1 compared to the fighter, and that even w/o buffs. With buffs, you can actually be a betterdamage-dealer that a fighter in a critical encounter. Also, the fighter doesn't have any Plan B beyond bashing really hard. You, on the other hand, have Plan B (Hold Person), Plan C (Sound Burst), and an emergency exit (Sanctuary/Obscuring Mist).

The ability to heal post-encounter is a nice bonus too. Or, if you want something entirely different, take a Pirate Cleric. Trickery and Travel domains. Gets Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door and other cool stuff.

Flickerdart
2010-02-24, 11:43 AM
DFA can heal for free (up to half HP). If you're Undead or take Tomb Tainted Soul, Dread Necromancer makes infinite, free healing. Likewise, a dip in Shadow Sun Ninja also makes free healing with at least one Undead/TTS in the party. Summoning Unicorns and other stuff gets you healing, too.

Os1ris09
2010-02-24, 11:59 AM
I like healing with Eldritch Disciple. I can zap the entire party with a healing Eldritch Cone or Eldritch Chain a few times per battle, even more with some Nightsticks. And I can still cast Heal, the Vigor line, Recitation etc.

The funniest part is that Hellfire Warlock can boost my healing to crazy levels. "Accept Hell's healing power!"

I agree completely with this. I love that ability. I shoot my ally and heal them THEN I shoot my enemy and hurt them. LOLz at every DM that goes "Wwwhaaa????"

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 12:31 PM
I agree completely with this. I love that ability. I shoot my ally and heal them THEN I shoot my enemy and hurt them. LOLz at every DM that goes "Wwwhaaa????"

Just like a Shadowsun Ninja.

Indon
2010-02-24, 12:50 PM
After a long msn conversation with one of my buddies, I remembered the old D&D fault of nobody wants to heal anybody. It was a discussion on what the bets are that the real life players would play in the next campaign. We both agreed that nobody would play the Cleric willingly. Which lead me to think of this topic. I know a few lurk here on these forums soo I'd like say I'm not bashing anymore but I'll put up a spoiler tag regardless.

This was actually a fairly prominent problem in AD&D, that 3rd edition tried to fix - and ended up grossly overcompensating for.

Basically, 3rd edition changed clerics so they could be front-line fighters as well as healers. The problem is, they turned out capable of being better front-line fighters than the standard ones, with a bit of optimization, and they could heal in addition to that.

So in 3.5 you can just have your cleric character optimize a bit and he'll deal damage comparable with other meleers easily, while still being able to heal.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-24, 01:39 PM
Want to be useful in combat? Take War/Strength domains. You get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, and Feat of Strength (STR +1/level). Around level 3, your attack bonus will be only -1 compared to the fighter, and that even w/o buffs. With buffs, you can actually be a betterdamage-dealer that a fighter in a critical encounter.
Yes, you can be a better damage dealer than a Fighter, but those domains aren't good choices to effect that goal. Start with the Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) Cleric variant, with Knowledge as an extra domain. Knowledge can be traded in for the Knowledge Devotion feat, and the Cloistered Cleric's skill points make this a bonus to hit and damage everything. Travel can be traded in for the Travel Devotion feat. Add in the Divine Power spell and your Cleric will hit more often than the Fighter, get full attacks nearly all the time yet still have decent mobility, and do more damage.

Oh, and Clerics can have the best AC, too. Robes (part of the scholar's outfit) can have an armor bonus (Magic Item Compendium, page 234); the Magic Vestment spell can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of that; and since there's no actual armor involved, you can add a Monk's Belt for (1 + WIS mod) more AC!

Sliver
2010-02-24, 01:52 PM
Sounds kinda like a spiritual, traveling, competent monk.. That can use weapons..

Grumman
2010-02-24, 01:53 PM
Knowledge can be traded in for the Knowledge Devotion feat, and the Cloistered Cleric's skill points make this a bonus to hit and damage everything.
If you trade in the Knowledge domain you no longer have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 01:58 PM
If you trade in the Knowledge domain you no longer have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

You get one back. You don't need Knowledge Nature all that much. The important ones are:

Religion (got it)
Arcana
Local
Dungeoneering


And one other. If your DM doesn't throw humanoid NPCs at you that often, you can simply dump Local.

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 02:05 PM
It's just does every group have this problem? Often hear jokes ( the one mentioned in the title ) but I'm just curious. Nothing about my group just other groups in general.

Hm, in my current group we have actually 3 out of 5 people who can heal
2 clerics 1 druid well if you count the paladin then its 4 but he canīt really heal much. Having so many possible healer types does decrease the issue of "donīt cast we might need a cure/heal spell later" ^^

Sliver
2010-02-24, 02:17 PM
Hm, in my current group we have actually 3 out of 5 people who can heal
2 clerics 1 druid well if you count the paladin then its 4 but he canīt really heal much. Having so many possible healer types does decrease the issue of "donīt cast we might need a cure/heal spell later" ^^

A paladin can use a CLW wand just fine.. :smalltongue:

MlleRouge
2010-02-24, 02:20 PM
Cleric is my personal favorite class, and DMM: Persist clerics are very popular in general in my group. They heal fine too, even if you're running a negative energy cleric. Not as good as a Radiant Servant or whatnot, but still fine. At least we haven't had any problems. I guess it's not for everyone, though.

Support clerics aren't as popular (among us) as DMM or otherwise melee focused ones, though. Though, in one recent module we played, we had so many clerics/other classes interested in healing and support that a lot of us stayed bored most of the time. I for one eventually got bored and started being offensive with my druid instead of healing/buffing/grappling like I had been before, since there were 2 clerics trying to do the same thing.

I think that was more of a fluke than anything though; a couple people who normally play all out offense tried to fill the battlefield controller role. They just decided to do it at the same time. I'd chosen to be a battlefield controller because I assumed no one else would :smallconfused: It was very odd, but worked out all right once we settled on who was doing what. I guess it's worth noting that we didn't have much opportunity to discuss roles and whatnot before the game actually began, since several players changed characters at the last minute.


<3 clerics

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 02:24 PM
Just like a Shadowsun Ninja.

I'd rather have the option to heal without having to pump other people full of negative energy first. Also, the idea of being sent to Dis for using my class features while my body becomes an uber-powerful ToB vampire isn't very appealing.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 02:26 PM
I'd rather have the option to heal without having to pump other people full of negative energy first. Also, the idea of being sent to Dis for using my class features while my body becomes an uber-powerful ToB vampire isn't very appealing.

1: Get a pet Skeleton Frog.

2: Never use the Capstone. Seriously.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-24, 02:26 PM
The best "Clericzilla" build I've ever seen was a Warforged Cleric 8/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Sacred Exorsist 2

I also want to place that other classes make superb healers:

Like a Divine Bard/Paladin of Freedom with Devoted Preformer

or

Druid/Lion of Talisid/Warshaper

or even

Favored Soul / Platinum Knight / Vassal of Bahamut

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 02:29 PM
A paladin can use a CLW wand just fine.. :smalltongue:

^^clw does not really cut it if you must cure something around 200hp (whole group) after a fight. You could use critical or serious wounds wands but why waste money if you have spells left for that ^^

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 02:41 PM
^^clw does not really cut it if you must cure something around 200hp (whole group) after a fight. You could use critical or serious wounds wands but why waste money if you have spells left for that ^^

CLW Wands have 50 charges. That's 50d8+50, for an average of 5.5 damage healed per charge. Takes 20 rounds and 20 charges to heal 200 HP.


Wands of Lesser Vigor are even better, healing 11HP/Charge (flat, no rolls). It's Fast Healing though, so takes longer.

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 02:54 PM
CLW Wands have 50 charges. That's 50d8+50, for an average of 5.5 damage healed per charge. Takes 20 rounds and 20 charges to heal 200 HP.


Which comes down to nearly 2 used up wands per day, so either you carry a little magic shop around with you or you will run out of wands pretty soon ^^

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 02:59 PM
Which comes down to nearly 2 used up wands per day, so either you carry a little magic shop around with you or you will run out of wands pretty soon ^^

Or you become an Artificer and eat the worthless ones as soon as they hit 10 charges.


Oh wait, that's what you meant by a little magic shop isn't it?

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 03:00 PM
Oh wait, that's what you meant by a little magic shop isn't it?

It certainly is a possibility :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:12 PM
^^clw does not really cut it if you must cure something around 200hp (whole group) after a fight. You could use critical or serious wounds wands but why waste money if you have spells left for that ^^

It's after a fight. Why do you care if he has to use CLW multiple times?

If you're taking 200 dmg per fight, too, you are either playing at a level high enough that wands of CLW can be purchased by the bucketload, or you are doing something horribly wrong.

Riffington
2010-02-24, 03:18 PM
DMs who deny players items are all ready bad in my book. DMs who deny players Core healing items are far worse.
Or just don't want to set their games in the Tippyverse?
There are dozens of reasons not to want unlimited healing in your game. It's a game-by-game decision.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:21 PM
Or just don't want to set their games in the Tippyverse?
There are dozens of reasons not to want unlimited healing in your game. It's a game-by-game decision.

You can't make a very good case for the cleric healbot by banning all healing but cleric healbots, yknow.

It basically ends up being "one of you HAS to play a class you hate." Which is a pretty bad way to set up a game, normally.


Also, wands are not unlimited healing. They are limited by gold, and the players willingness to spend it. This is a cost that isn't insane, but which players won't typically spend recklessly, and will be duly punished by being broke if they do.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 03:25 PM
Or just don't want to set their games in the Tippyverse?
There are dozens of reasons not to want unlimited healing in your game. It's a game-by-game decision.

Now I really wish there was a head-desk emote here...

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 03:26 PM
If you're taking 200 dmg per fight, too, you are either playing at a level high enough that wands of CLW can be purchased by the bucketload, or you are doing something horribly wrong.

Problem with wands by the bucketload is that there is limited supply (not everyone is playing tippyverse :smallwink:)
though if we had an artificer it could be done... but as I said earlier up to now there is no reason to spend money on things you can have for free :smallwink:

Sliver
2010-02-24, 03:26 PM
A cleric with the healing touch (?) reserve feat can cheapen alot of the healing expenses, especially after the harder fights where you end up with really low hp..

CTLC
2010-02-24, 03:27 PM
Clerics are not really healers, being a healer is boring. Clerics are gishes from super tier one land. Also, healing belts!!!

Grumman
2010-02-24, 03:29 PM
Or just don't want to set their games in the Tippyverse?
It's a level 1 wand. Worth 750 gp. About what you'd expect to find on a CR 4-5 opponent. At a level where the party has 200-odd HP to spare.

I'm hardly surprised that you would reach such an amazingly wrong conclusion that this somehow requires the Tippyverse.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:29 PM
Problem with wands by the bucketload is that there is limited supply (not everyone is playing tippyverse :smallwink:)
though if we had an artificer it could be done... but as I said earlier up to now there is no reason to spend money on things you can have for free :smallwink:

Availability of wands of CLW /= tippyverse. Seriously.

Tippyverse = teleport circles everywhere, nobody works for food because it's all created magicially. Most professions have been replaced by magic. People are farmed for xp. Planar creation is a longstanding hobby.

Riffington
2010-02-24, 03:31 PM
You can't make a very good case for the cleric healbot by banning all healing but cleric healbots, yknow.

There are plenty of ways to heal without unlimited healing or healbot clerics. Ranging from druids to (rarer) potions to downtime.


Also, wands are not unlimited healing. They are limited by gold, and the players willingness to spend it. This is a cost that isn't insane, but which players won't typically spend recklessly, and will be duly punished by being broke if they do.
Mmm dunno about that. If every character does every iota of healing via Wands of Lesser Vigor, and gets standard XP and GP as per book, it really doesn't make a huge dent in the wallet past 3rd level or so. As a player, it just feels like "oh, this fight cost me an extra 15gp (much less than the value of the chainmail I don't know if I should bother looting). I.e. it's at the level of "mule management".

And if you play WBL as written it's even worse: for every wand they use up, the DM just gives them 750 extra GP next fight. [if you count expended items as WBL, you probably shouldn't allow replacement high-level characters to start with full WBL].

One item does not a tippyverse make. But if you don't limit *some* of the items, you have the Tippyverse. Whether the wand of CLW is on that list or not is going to vary by campaign.

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 03:31 PM
Availability of wands of CLW /= tippyverse. Seriously.

Tippyverse = teleport circles everywhere, nobody works for food because it's all created magicially. Most professions have been replaced by magic. People are farmed for xp. Planar creation is a longstanding hobby.

then call it realism that a shopkeeper has a limited amount of money and time and because of that he has not an infinite amount of product x ^^

Eldariel
2010-02-24, 03:39 PM
then call it realism that a shopkeeper has a limited amount of money and time and because of that he has not an infinite amount of product x ^^

You'd think he'd especially make sure, even make it a priority over all else, to keep large stacks of item that's bound to sell so well being so universally useful O.o I mean, every sale is profit for him so all he needs to do is make sure his items sell and there are few better articles to sell for everyone who just can afford them.

Hallavast
2010-02-24, 03:42 PM
The availability of CLW is not tippyverse.

But the mentality that you can buy whatever magic item you have the gold for any time you're in town does lead to potential tippyverse.

There is no magical infinite internet with free instant shipping in most D&D games. Things like supply side economics exist.

Saying there should be no limit to the availability of magic items to the players is wrong in my book.

With that said, I don't see it being unreasonable for a group of reasonably leveled adventurers to pick up a few wands at a large enough temple upon occassion. Heck, they could even set up a deal with the clergy to buy some everytime they visit town and pay a small premium to make sure wands are there when they need them.

But things like expecting a village to have enough healing belts for a party of 4-6 people is absurd.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:44 PM
then call it realism that a shopkeeper has a limited amount of money and time and because of that he has not an infinite amount of product x ^^

As previously mentioned, if you need an infinite amount of healing, you are doing something horribly wrong.

Eldariel
2010-02-24, 03:46 PM
The availability of CLW is not tippyverse.

But the mentality that you can buy whatever magic item you have the gold for any time you're in town does lead to potential tippyverse.

There is no magical infinite internet with free instant shipping in most D&D games. Things like supply side economics exist.

Saying there should be no limit to the availability of magic items to the players is wrong in my book.

With that said, I don't see it being unreasonable for a group of reasonably leveled adventurers to pick up a few wands at a large enough temple upon occassion. Heck, they could even set up a deal with the clergy to buy some everytime they visit town and pay a small premium to make sure wands are there when they need them.

But things like expecting a village to have enough healing belts for a party of 4-6 people is absurd.

If there's one crafter in the village, that seems rather likely. Healing Belts are, after all, eminently sellable and thus seem like by far the easiest way to make money with Craft Wondrous Items.

And there are always extraplanar metropolis for shopping sprees if you really need to find exactly something. That or placing orders.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:47 PM
One item does not a tippyverse make. But if you don't limit *some* of the items, you have the Tippyverse. Whether the wand of CLW is on that list or not is going to vary by campaign.

As already covered, the CLW wand is only one way out of a ridiculous variety of options for non-cleric healing. The precise details of how it's done are mostly irrelevant. Oh look, we're short on CLW wands, and have to use one of lesser vigor. Uh...who cares?

If the DM is banning ALL of those many, many ways, then he is being a jerk, and intentionally forcing someone into the healbot role.

Emmerask
2010-02-24, 03:51 PM
As previously mentioned, if you need an infinite amount of healing, you are doing something horribly wrong.

Hm canīt argue against playing dumb :smallwink:

Riffington
2010-02-24, 03:54 PM
As already covered, the CLW wand is only one way out of a ridiculous variety of options for non-cleric healing. The precise details of how it's done are mostly irrelevant. Oh look, we're short on CLW wands, and have to use one of lesser vigor. Uh...who cares?

If the DM is banning ALL of those many, many ways, then he is being a jerk, and intentionally forcing someone into the healbot role.

I agree with you that the difference between CLW and Lesser Vigor is fairly minor.
However, you are incorrect in your claim that by banning "unlimited healing" items he is forcing someone into a healbot role. He is not doing that at all: rather, he is creating a campaign where you don't expect to enter every fight uninjured. You get hurt by a stray arrow, and it actually hurts. It plays very differently from unlimited-healing D&D.

erikun
2010-02-24, 03:55 PM
Haven't read the thread, so just responding to the OP:

There are two times when I've ran into this attitude. The first is when nobody wants to "waste their time" playing the buffer. The second is when everyone runs off and does stupid stuff, and expects the cleric to crawl down the dragon's intestines to deliver their 1d8+5 heals.

The first is either assuming you need to deal damage to be effective, or at least not having fun unless dealing damage. If you want to play the cleric, this won't be a problem - simply buff everyone up before battle, and let them have fun. It's a bit of a larger problem if everyone likes sticking swords in things, though, and nobody listens to the idea of a sword-wielding cleric of Kord.

The second is a bit more difficult on the cleric player, as the rest of the party needs to realize that they have better things to do that cast healing spells every turn (and if they did, they'd run out of spells too quickly). Defensive buffs should keep the party healthy, or at least alive long enough to matter. If all else fails, keeping a Merciful Humanbane* weapon on hand to smack them upside the head when they do something stupid is handy.

* If none are available, a handful of sourcebooks will work just as well. Or you could try interacting in-character, if you'd like.

Hallavast
2010-02-24, 03:57 PM
If there's one crafter in the village, that seems rather likely. Healing Belts are, after all, eminently sellable and thus seem like by far the easiest way to make money with Craft Wondrous Items.
No. That would require a very wealthy investor in the village. Most "crafters" do not have the kind of capital to make those items to begin with. And damage isn't really that big a concern to folks who don't engage in combat. If there were indeed a "crafter" with a higher than suggested amount of capital in the village, he might make one for the sheriff or the mayor's guards, but there would be little demand otherwise(since only adventurers and wealthy nobles/merchants could afford them).



And there are always extraplanar metropolis for shopping sprees if you really need to find exactly something. That or placing orders.

Nope. Extraplanar metropolis like Union and Sigil are fairly dependant upon setting. Do not expect them to be there for all campaigns.

Eldariel
2010-02-24, 04:05 PM
No. That would require a very wealthy investor in the village. Most "crafters" do not have the kind of capital to make those items to begin with. And damage isn't really that big a concern to folks who don't engage in combat. If there were indeed a "crafter" with a higher than suggested amount of capital in the village, he might make one for the sheriff or the mayor's guards, but there would be little demand otherwise(since only adventurers and wealthy nobles/merchants could afford them).

Anyone capable of crafting (that is, with enough levels to take the feats) is wealthy enough by DMG NPC wealth. And if they weren't to start with, after the first sale they are.

And honestly, that's among the cheapest magical item in existence. Chances are you want to craft them over anything else specifically because it's one of the few things anyone in need might be able to afford. Warriors of all branches definitely have use for them.


Sure, every village won't have a crafter with Craft Wondrous Items. Those that do tho? I'd be willing to bet Healing Belt is one of the few items in store even if he has nothing else.


Nope. Extraplanar metropolis like Union and Sigil are fairly dependant upon setting. Do not expect them to be there for all campaigns.

Planes are a big place. There's bound to be a metropolis or two out there.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-24, 04:11 PM
Actually, I quite enjoy playing a 'healing cleric', particularly if I can expand his abilities to include other things. One of my favorite Cleric builds involves DMM Chain Spell buffbot which totally powers up my party with massive buffing. Then I wade in with my own fun abilities on top.

One of my cheezy tactics is to make a Chain Buff Cleric with the Travel Domain. Why? Port n Pwn. By the time I hit 9th level, I've got my DMM Chain stuff fully in operation, and I've also got Teleport as a domain spell. So once I get done with the rounds/level buffs, I port us in and we completely destroy whatever we were going after.

You know, in addition to being able to toss around Reach Chain healing, if we get hit by a lot of AoE damage, Chain (remove status ailment spell) if they try to lock us down, and basically being the ultimate counter to just about anything any opponent is likely to do.

You want power? How about the rest of your party being the direct manifestation of your diety's wrath?

Hallavast
2010-02-24, 04:23 PM
Anyone capable of crafting (that is, with enough levels to take the feats) is wealthy enough by DMG NPC wealth. That's right, but you don't typically find these people in villages.



And if they weren't to start with, after the first sale they are.
You still need the start up capital to actually make the good then the venue to sell it (which might be cheap). Then there are concerns about security expenses, taxes and tarrifs, embargoes from the nearest temple, transportation costs, advertising, ect. These are the reasons villagers sell turnips and not magic items.



And honestly, that's among the cheapest magical item in existence. Chances are you want to craft them over anything else specifically because it's one of the few things anyone in need might be able to afford.
No. Perhaps the upper middle class (property owners and high end merchants) could afford them, but the majority of a D&D setting's population is the lower class. They don't have the modern conveniences of the internet, easy transportation, advanced security, or disposable income. Peasants make 3 gp a month if they work EVERY DAY. The demand is not as high as you might surmise. Also, in my personal opinion, this particular item is slightly underpriced. I wouldn't be suprised if some DMs raised the market price.


Warriors of all branches definitely have use for them. Most warriors also can't afford them. Besides, how many warriors are going to be hanging out in a village?



Sure, every village won't have a crafter with Craft Wondrous Items. Those that do tho? I'd be willing to bet Healing Belt is one of the few items in store even if he has nothing else. Indeed. But most villages will not have the capital to support one. A small town is likely to, but not a village.




Planes are a big place. There's bound to be a metropolis or two out there. Nope. Totally DM dependant.

Bavarian itP
2010-02-24, 04:25 PM
Problem with wands by the bucketload is that there is limited supply (not everyone is playing tippyverse :smallwink:)


And that's exaktly the problem with this viewpoint: If you wanna play in a low-magic setting, then you to have nerf items and casters. If you only nerf (or reduce the availability of) items, then you're forcing players to play spellcasters. And that IS a bad thing.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:28 PM
I am not aware of any published setting in which a wand of CLW is unavailable or difficult to pick up. A planar metropolis is not required.

I believe a small town, by RAW, is all you need to pick up such an item. Presumably most settings have these.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-24, 04:36 PM
Believe it or not, one member of my gaming group likes playing the Healer/Support role. Nobody else in the group is eager to do it, though.

Kallisti
2010-02-24, 04:41 PM
Leadership+Healer Cohort=Problem solved.

Money+NPC Healer-for hire=Problem kind-of solved.

Making someone play the healer=Angry player likely to be a pain in the ass.

Hallavast
2010-02-24, 04:45 PM
I find it ironic that in the midst of posting about the costs of being an entrepeneurial businessman in a fantasy setting, my partner arrives to inform me that we will be buried in paperwork for the next few weeks, and I'll have to take out another loan to cover unforseen start-up expenses. I'll be back later.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 04:51 PM
I find it ironic that in the midst of posting about the costs of being an entrepeneurial businessman in a fantasy setting, my partner arrives to inform me that we will be buried in paperwork for the next few weeks, and I'll have to take out another loan to cover unforseen start-up expenses. I'll be back later.

The one power D&D does not have, is to allow us to disregard the real world indefinitely. :smallfrown:

Jergmo
2010-02-24, 05:33 PM
I've never had too much trouble with this. My campaign hasn't started yet so we ended up adding in one of my RL friends, and she was thrilled about being able to be the party's main healer and fell in love with the Healer class from Miniatures Handbook when I showed it to her.

Thurbane
2010-02-24, 08:24 PM
First time I played a cleric in 3.X, I still had my 1E/2E mindset of "Hmmm, well someone has to play the cleric, I guess I'll have to do it".

I quickly discovered how frickin' cool (and powerful), the 3.X cleric really is. And that was core-only: I can only imagine how awesome the cleric is when splats are opened up. :smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2010-02-24, 08:37 PM
Easy solution: take Leadership. Have a DMM Persistant Cleric as a cohort. Persist Lesser Mass Vigor or Vigorous Circle, as well as a few other group buffs (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, etc). Now nobody has to worry about healing.

JaronK

elonin
2010-02-24, 08:47 PM
Easy solution: take Leadership. Have a DMM Persistant Cleric as a cohort. Persist Lesser Mass Vigor or Vigorous Circle, as well as a few other group buffs (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, etc). Now nobody has to worry about healing.

JaronK

Including your enemies!

In a campaign we played in once no one made a cleric so the dm gave us a dmpc cleric. In order to keep him safe we let him hang out in our portable hole with a bottle of air and just went in to get him when needed.

2xMachina
2010-02-25, 06:51 AM
If you trade in the Knowledge domain you no longer have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

Dip Inquisitor. Trade Inquisition for Knowledge Devotion while keeping Knowledge Domain.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-02-25, 07:55 AM
Including your enemies!

Past level 3 or so are you really that concerned about giving your enemies fast healing 1? The value is from infinite out of combat healing and even at level 1 I think the generally inferior AC of monsters and most monsters being killable in one hit for the tanks still makes this benificial in combat. Hmmmm I might have to test this out 2 straight out of the DMG parties identical except one has a cleric built to DMM:Persist at level 1. and run them against some equal CR encounters and some above CR encounters made up of low CR critters. Of course to be fair I have to throw some undead in there so the party with a non DMM cleric can breeze through it.

If the DM won't let you buy a wand so you don't have to waste all your spells on out of combat healing then just take craft wand and make it yourself, it will be better than the alternative.

Oh, in combat healing can be ok at very low levels a level one cleric with the healing domain and that feat that adds 2 points per spell level has a good chance of bring a tank from 1 or 2 hp's to full and if that tank has a good AC say 18 4 armor+2 shield+2 dex and is only being hit by enemies with +3 to hit 1 out of 4 times casting clw is a good use of your turn.

Optimystik
2010-02-25, 08:25 AM
In a campaign we played in once no one made a cleric so the dm gave us a dmpc cleric. In order to keep him safe we let him hang out in our portable hole with a bottle of air and just went in to get him when needed.

Don't forget to feed and water him every now and then.

...or not... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance)

Grifthin
2010-02-25, 08:53 AM
I agree completely with this. I love that ability. I shoot my ally and heal them THEN I shoot my enemy and hurt them. LOLz at every DM that goes "Wwwhaaa????"

How do you do that ? Alternate class features ?

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-25, 09:12 AM
First time I played a cleric in 3.X, I still had my 1E/2E mindset of "Hmmm, well someone has to play the cleric, I guess I'll have to do it".

I quickly discovered how frickin' cool (and powerful), the 3.X cleric really is. And that was core-only: I can only imagine how awesome the cleric is when splats are opened up. :smallbiggrin:

The same for me. I had several players enjoying Clerics and myself, I played a Healer Cleric for a long time.

I LIKE be the healer, barring the fact that unless the campaign pusher roles too much, you enjoy stay in front line whit the fighter smashing things and healing both after the combat (and sometimes, even during combat), stay together with thw wizzie and blast things together whit him, and buff everybody up.