Non-epic epic spellcasting

[Yora]

I really like the concept of epic spellcasting, but I don't like high level play.
As epic spellcasting is all DC based, I assume that the mechanics should work pretty much the same if you allow characters to start at, let's say 11th level instead of 21st.

Are there some special things I should know or keep in mind if I allow non epic characters to develop epic spells?

And also, how do you get your Spellcraft modifier really high? I never figured out how to get over 400 without being a 350th level character.
I know about Headbands of Intellect, +10 Spellcraft bonus items, and the Magical Aptitude feat. What else is there?

[magic9mushroom]

I really like the concept of epic spellcasting, but I don't like high level play.
As epic spellcasting is all DC based, I assume that the mechanics should work pretty much the same if you allow characters to start at, let's say 11th level instead of 21st.

Are there some special things I should know or keep in mind if I allow non epic characters to develop epic spells?

And also, how do you get your Spellcraft modifier really high? I never figured out how to get over 400 without being a 350th level character.
I know about Headbands of Intellect, +10 Spellcraft bonus items, and the Magical Aptitude feat. What else is there?

The problem with Epic Spellcasting is that without ritual mitigation it pretty much sucks and with ritual mitigation you can do anything (Leadership or Gate chaining).

Advice: Drop the DCs, but put hard limits on mitigation with additional casters.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, you can assume that all casters will have int mod + level + 3 ranks in spellcraft at a minimum.

Int modifier will be beefy for int based casters. Figure +10 by epic levels at a bare minimum.

MW item: +2
Synergy Bonus: +2(5 ranks of knowledge arcana)
Skill Focus: +3
Epic skill focus: +10
Competence Item: +variable.

The biggest issues with making it all skill dependant is that skills are relatively easy to pump. Spellcraft is remarkably common, since it's typically a class skill for full casters, SF: Spellcraft is a prereq for a few things, and other classes, like incantatrix, make heavy use of it. So, you have a huge difference in DC between different levels of optimization. Much larger than the difference made by mere levels and ranks.

Thus, any skill based system will either be worthless or broken.

[hamishspence]

Both Unearthed Arcana, and Urban Arcana, have incantations, which basically use the epic spellcasting rules, but with adjustments to minimise cheese.

I'm not sure if the adjustments are anything like enough, though.

[Grumman]

Are there some special things I should know or keep in mind if I allow non epic characters to develop epic spells?
Yes. Allowing Epic Spellcasting in any game is a horrible idea.

[Eldan]

The longer explanation of what other people already wrote:

Epic spellcasting is borked. Why?

Assuming you take a spellcaster not mitigating the DC. How is he going to develop a fairly normal spell? Months of work, and hundreds of thousands of GP and XP and in the end, he's ending up with a minor buff or a damage spell that would suck in non-epic. It's nearly impossible to do something good without cheese.

On the other hand, as soon as you take cheese, what can you do? You start summoning Solars, and they contribute their ninth-level spell slots. They also summon more Solars. You hire low-level mages. You create new planes with Genesis, where magic is easier and time runs different.

And then? You easily make spells which are normally DC 500, but make them DC 0 to avoid XP costs which would cripple you and throw you back a level or so. And in the process, make a spell called "Suck it, DM".

[Yora]

The problem with Epic Spellcasting is that without ritual mitigation it pretty much sucks and with ritual mitigation you can do anything (Leadership or Gate chaining).

Advice: Drop the DCs, but put hard limits on mitigation with additional casters.
Just found out a group of 8 10th level psions could easily easily cast epic spells of DCs up to 360, given 3 million gold pieces and 160 days time.

Yeah, I'll cheack out Incantations agin. :smallbiggrin:

[Volkov]

Its really just better to make your own 10th level and higher spells and check with the group to see if its balanced. Epic spells are either require lots of mitigation and/or skill pumping to make an overpowered, or heck, even a useful spell, or you have a low spellcraft dc spell that isn't worth crap.

[Yora]

What I need is a mechanic to create magical effects with a far greater scope than what a simple spell can do in 3 seconds.

Stuff like sinking entire islands, plane shift cities, imprison demigods, or animate 150 ft. tall golems. Things that require half a dozen or more high level spellcasters to work for hours or days. Or just things you probably just want to cast once in your lifetime but should be available to spontanous casters as well. The kind of things adventurer parties set out to prevent from being completed by evil archmages. :smallbiggrin:
Many of it is mostly stuff that should rather be handwaved without any actual mechanic behind it, but I'd also like to make spells like break enchantment, guards and wards, control weather, or trap the soul to be available in mid-level campaigns.

Incantations are interesting, but even though they have all this stuff like casting DCs, casting times, material components, and such, they don't take into account what the ritual actually does. Permanently summoning a celestial raven is exactly the same as permanently summoning a balor, only that you have to succeed at more skill checks, but at the same DC.