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Mark Hall
2010-02-24, 10:43 AM
What classes are defender with a little bit of Striker? No Hybrids, please; don't feel like fiddling about with it.

AB
2010-02-24, 10:45 AM
Well, good old Fighter is. Goliath Greatweapon Fighter, for example.

Xallace
2010-02-24, 10:47 AM
Pally seems to be able to pull it off pretty well, given Divine Power.

Camelot
2010-02-24, 10:56 AM
The only defender whose entry actually says its secondary role is the warden, and if you choose the Wildblood Guardian Might, you are indeed a defender secondary striker.

The other defenders don't have secondary roles because those hadn't been invented yet when they were published. I'd say that fighter if you choose Greatweapon or Tempest and swordmage if you choose Aegis of Assault lean towards the striker role. Greatweapon and Assault go about dealing a lot of damage, while Tempest has a bit of the striker's mobility.

Barbarians, while primarily strikers, are secondary defenders, if you want to lean a little more toward striker and less for defender.

Zombimode
2010-02-24, 11:39 AM
Pally seems to be able to pull it off pretty well, given Divine Power.

QFT

Str-Paladins to be specific.
They have quite a range of high [W] powers in their range, Ardent Vow, the damage from divine challange, and of course being a Tempus worshiper.
Get a vicious high crit weapon (Fullblade will do nicely) and chop your enemies in half.

Having an at-will power doing about 1W12+17 damage is nice at 11th level, too.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-24, 11:46 AM
Dwarven Battlerager Fighters
LV 1 - wear Chain Mail, use a Craghammer and Heavy Shield, and take Dwarven Weapon Training [STR 16, CON 18]. Brash Strike does 1d10+9 (+11 with THP) damage [Brutal 2]

LV 2 - take MC Barbarian

LV 4- Boost STR & CON, take Hide Armor Expertise and wear Hide Armor. You are now in the equivalent of Scale + Shield, gain 4 THP on any hit (8 THP on an Invigorating hit).

LV 8 - Boost STR & CON. Now you are wearing the equivalent of Plate + Shield (with less Armor Check Penalty), and Brash Strike (with THP) is doing 1d10+12 [Brutal 2] and gives you 4 THP (6 if you took Dwarven Vigor at LV 6)

LV 10 - MC Daily to gain Silver Phoenix Rage (Barbarian 5). Use Silver Phoenix Rage to gain Regeneration 3 for an Encounter and a free Surge when you hit 0 HP.
As you can see, they are ridiculous.

Mando Knight
2010-02-24, 01:32 PM
QFT

Str-Paladins to be specific.
They have quite a range of high [W] powers in their range, Ardent Vow, the damage from divine challange, and of course being a Tempus worshiper.
Get a vicious high crit weapon (Fullblade will do nicely) and chop your enemies in half.

Having an at-will power doing about 1W12+17 damage is nice at 11th level, too.
Specifically, Str/Wis Paladins with Ardent Vow and Potent Challenge (to mitigate DC damage loss). If you hit frequently enough that you're confident with dropping your proficiency bonus by 1, then the Mordenkrad rears its nasty head again.

Shardan
2010-02-24, 06:38 PM
Most defenders can be. After all, if they didn't deal enough damage to be a threat, why would a monster respect their mark. Just stack the feats for more damage instead of battle-line controllery effects.

swordmage is probably the hardest to do, but if you are going AOE Damage instead of single target damage, it works wonders.

Tehnar
2010-02-24, 07:15 PM
Dwarven Battlerager fighters are not sub strikers. While they are resilient and their damage is impressive, their to hit is lacking. A 16 in a main stat with +2 proficiency weapons means they can't hit anything to save their allies. By themselves they will be all right since they are very tough to kill.

Skrizzy
2010-02-24, 07:44 PM
I play an earthstregth warden. I use form of mountains thunder and a khopesh and build around the idea of pulling things in. I dpr better than one of the groups strikers and control pretty well still.

DSCrankshaw
2010-02-24, 07:45 PM
Dwarven Battlerager fighters are not sub strikers. While they are resilient and their damage is impressive, their to hit is lacking. A 16 in a main stat with +2 proficiency weapons means they can't hit anything to save their allies. By themselves they will be all right since they are very tough to kill.

Brash strike + Devoted Challenge + Weapon Expertise and they'll do all right. Dwarven Weapon Training, of course. Damage wise, assuming they have temp hp, they get Str + 5 to hit, 1d10 (brutal 2) + Str + Con + 4 damage with brash strike. For a challenge attack, they get Str + Wis + 3 to hit, and 1d10 (brutal 2) + Str + Wis + 4 damage.

Overall, not bad.

EDIT: Of course, as long as you're doing Battlerager, might as well give up the shield and use a Mordenkrad. If you can swing it, MC barbarian and take Hide Expertise.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 02:26 PM
Dwarven Battlerager fighters are not sub strikers. While they are resilient and their damage is impressive, their to hit is lacking. A 16 in a main stat with +2 proficiency weapons means they can't hit anything to save their allies. By themselves they will be all right since they are very tough to kill.
You forget that Brash Strike gives an inherent +2 to hit. And there's always Weapon Expertise if you want it.

@DSCrankshaw - the reason I went with the Heavy Shield is two-fold. One is to get obscene AC, but the other is to give him a less-terrible Reflex. Because you'll be using CON for AC, your INT/DEX can afford to be rather low.

Besides, a Craghammer does ridiculous damage on its own. Sure, it's no 2d6 [Brutal 1], but consistently doing 15-22 damage a hit is still good enough when you factor in all the help a Heavy Shield gets you.

Yakk
2010-02-25, 03:13 PM
The nice thing about the Brash Assault fighter is that it leaves your encounters/dailies for "utility".

You can also drop Battlerager and go one-handed weapon talent fighter. No, I'm not kidding -- the +1 to hit works nicely with your +2 prof weapon and your +3 str bonus.

At level 5, you are doing +13/15-22 damage per swing.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 03:32 PM
The nice thing about the Brash Assault fighter is that it leaves your encounters/dailies for "utility".

You can also drop Battlerager and go one-handed weapon talent fighter. No, I'm not kidding -- the +1 to hit works nicely with your +2 prof weapon and your +3 str bonus.

At level 5, you are doing +13/15-22 damage per swing.
Well, you lose out on a lot of synergy that the Battlerager has with Barbarian. Specifically, it is less useful for a Fighter who can wear Scale to waste two feats (and a bunch of points in CON) to get value out of Hide Armor Expertise.

Plus, Battleragers have the extra durability from continual THP gain and that +2 damage bonus for using Hammers/Axes.

I'm not sure that extra +1 is worth it, personally.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-25, 05:25 PM
The nice thing about the Brash Assault fighter is that it leaves your encounters/dailies for "utility".

You can also drop Battlerager and go one-handed weapon talent fighter. No, I'm not kidding -- the +1 to hit works nicely with your +2 prof weapon and your +3 str bonus.

At level 5, you are doing +13/15-22 damage per swing.

HIT: +2 level +4 str +2 weap +1 talent +1 ftr weapon form +1 weap expertise =11 to hit
DAMAGE: +4 str + 2 dwv weapon train +3 (minimum of craghammer) +1 weapon focus. =10 damage minimum
How strong of a magic weapon do you have that you're getting a +13 to hit, and minimum of 15 damage?
I've got an LFR level 6 character with a +2 vicious weapon, but even that's not enough to reach the numbers you list.

Shardan: What makes a defender so dangerous isn't the fact that he deals insane amounts of damage. It's that once he's marked you, you'll get punished for ignoring him. Part of that punishment (for a fighter at least) is ending your movement if he hits you.
Plus he gets bonuses to his AOOs and combat challenge attacks, helping ensure he hits with what is ordinarily a weak basic attack.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-25, 05:30 PM
What classes are defender with a little bit of Striker?
Fighter, hands down. Some of those stances are simply devastating, and you'll get to make a lot of out-of-turn attacks which are quite the damage boost.

Yakk
2010-02-25, 05:37 PM
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 5
Dwarf, Fighter
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 19, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 58 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +7, Endurance +11, Athletics +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +4, History +1, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +1, Stealth +1, Streetwise +2, Thievery +1

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 4: Fighter Weapon Specialization

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Resolute Shield
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Shield Bash
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Battle Fury Stance
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Agile Scale Armor +1, Sacrificial Craghammer +2, Heavy Shield, Cloak of Distortion +1, Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Note the character gets an extra +2 to damage against bloodied targets. :) Oh, and did I mention the stance that grants him another +2 to damage?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 05:57 PM
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 5
Dwarf, Fighter
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 19, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 58 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +7, Endurance +11, Athletics +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +4, History +1, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +1, Stealth +1, Streetwise +2, Thievery +1

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 4: Fighter Weapon Specialization

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Resolute Shield
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Shield Bash
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Battle Fury Stance
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Agile Scale Armor +1, Sacrificial Craghammer +2, Heavy Shield, Cloak of Distortion +1, Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Note the character gets an extra +2 to damage against bloodied targets. :) Oh, and did I mention the stance that grants him another +2 to damage?
Curse you and your MP2-using ways!

Anyhoo, I'm not sure that you couldn't just make that a Battlerager and do even more damage - what with the inherent +2 damage when he has THP.

He would lose Fighter Weapon Talent, but what does that do, exactly? And couldn't the Battlerager just take it at LV 6?

Tehnar
2010-02-25, 08:05 PM
@Battlerager fighters
I am not so sure that you can count the damage bonus you gain from temp hit points as a source of bonus damage. Not even as far as the rogue can claim combat advantage. Your THP will most likely be gone by the time you have to attack, especially since you grant CA all of the time. Your OA's, your combat superiority attacks and pretty much any other power will not hit as much as it should (you would be anywhere from -2 to -4 disadvantage to your hit compared to other fighters). Missing when a higher level soldier type is moving past you to the squishies is not good.

oxybe
2010-02-25, 08:21 PM
Barbs are definitely Defenders with a striker subtheme.

then again it could just be me... those dragons were ignoring the party in favor of the big leather armored angry man :smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 08:30 PM
@Battlerager fighters
I am not so sure that you can count the damage bonus you gain from temp hit points as a source of bonus damage. Not even as far as the rogue can claim combat advantage. Your THP will most likely be gone by the time you have to attack, especially since you grant CA all of the time. Your OA's, your combat superiority attacks and pretty much any other power will not hit as much as it should (you would be anywhere from -2 to -4 disadvantage to your hit compared to other fighters). Missing when a higher level soldier type is moving past you to the squishies is not good.
Eh, with the high AC, I'm not so sure that those THPs will always be gone. Still, that is an interesting point I hadn't considered.

Question: where do you get that -2 to -4?

sofawall
2010-02-25, 08:48 PM
Barbs are definitely Defenders with a striker subtheme.

then again it could just be me... those dragons were ignoring the party in favor of the big leather armored angry man :smalltongue:

Barbs are strikers with a very strong defender sub-theme.

Tehnar
2010-02-25, 08:58 PM
Not counting Brash Strike bonus (or taking in the fact that the other fighter is using it as well) you have:

+5 from STR, +3 proficiency, +1 weapon talent: +9 vs
+3 STR +2 proficiency: +5

for a 4 point difference. The other points in the spread depend on what weapon you use and your initial STR.

I can do a little comparison with your battlerager (BSF in further notation) vs a 20 STR, 12=CON,DEX&WIS human weapon talent fighter. The feats will be weapon proficiency and weapon focus in Fullblade. They will be going against your brash strike fighter, at level 1. I won't be using bonus damage from THP though, since I believe it doesn't trigger often enough to be of use.

vs AC 15:
BSF: 1d8+11 (avg 15.5): 10.25 DPR
My fighter: 1d12+6 (avg 12.5): 11.25

vs AC 20:
BSF: 6.375 DPR
My fighter: 9.375

With combat advantage (assuming scale): both fighters have the same AC, yours has all other defenses lower.

Without taking combat advantage into account: Your fighter has a higher AC, lower fort with refl and will defense being the same.

oxybe
2010-02-25, 09:02 PM
Barbs are strikers with a very strong defender sub-theme.

yeah... i took +150 damage for the team while the pally was barely attacked in the two very close together fights last monday. i think i can safely say i was a defender first and a very pissed of striker second. :smallwink:

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 09:08 PM
Not counting Brash Strike bonus (or taking in the fact that the other fighter is using it as well)
This isn't a valid assumption.

Brash Strike is worth +4 damage and +2 to hit with my Battlerager. To trade off, I grant CA.

For your Fighter it is worth +0 damage (Fullblades aren't Hammer/Axe) and +2 to hit, in exchange for granting CA. You'd be silly to even take it as a Power.

That's a pretty big difference, IMHO. Also, if I'm using Invigorating Strike instead ([W]+STR) I'm getting 8 THP on a hit and 4 THP on a miss - even at Level 1.

Of course my AC suffers at LV 1 - I can't get Hide Armor Expertise yet - but note that at LV 4 my AC increases by 1 (Scale Equivalent) while at LV 8 I'm now wearing Plate Equivalent.

Yakk
2010-02-25, 09:36 PM
Weapon Talent gives you +1 to hit, and no you cannot "just take it at level 6".

It also unlocks superiority, which is a feat that grants a stacking unconditional +1 to damage. Which I picked up. Just 'cause.

The use of Brash Strike is important.

At level 1, the BSF will be using invigorating strike when monsters attack him, getting 4-8 temporary HP per round (4 on a miss, 8 on a hit). If monsters miss him, he pulls out brash strike.

You are missing the +2 to hit from brash strike. Your fighter has worse AC than the brash strike fighter at level 1. Even when the BSF grants CA, with the THP he'll tend to have, the brash strike fighter will be out-defending your greatweapon fighter at level 1.

1d10B2+3 str+4 con+2 DWF+1 (avg) battlerage vigor
=~ 1d8+12 = 16.5 damage at +3+2+2 = +7 to hit
+3.5 damage on a crit.

You have +9 to hit for 1d12+6 = 12.5
You get +12 damage on a crit.

AC 15 is a level 1 normal critter.
AC 15:
65%*16.5+.05*3.5 BSF = 10.9 DPR
75%*12.5+.05*12 GWT = 9.975 DPR

Level 3 soldier is AC 19.
.4*16.5+.05*3.5 = 6.775 DPR
.6*12.5+.05*12 = 8.1 DPR

Each +1 to hit: 1.25 DRP on GWF, 1.65 DPR on BSF.
Each +2 to stats: +1 damage per hit on GWF, +2 damage per hit on BSF.

The AC of the BSF starts 1 ahead (1 less on the target they are attacking -- remember, brash strike only provokes CA on the target, not on everyone).

Hide Armor Expertise bumps the AC up to 2 greater on the GWF. Now, they are out-tanking the GWF on their target of choice (same AC, temporary HP), and are 2 AC greater on everything else.

As an aside, see that "+1.65 DPR for each +1 to hit"? That is why weapon talent is so tempting. You lose the temporary HP, but you get a significant DPR boost. And you get yet another feat that stacks to boost your DPR by another half-point or so in heroic.

If you do all of this with a human or goliath or dragonborn fighter, you end up with a character that is matching the accuracy of the 20 str great weapon fighter, has a boatload of HP, shield-tank level AC, and really cuts into things with the axe.

The level 8 human version has 20 str, 18 con, weapon sup, weapon focus, sup. weapon (craighammer), weapon expertise.

Using a +2 hammer, it has +17 to hit
Damage is 1d8+15 (at-will), crit damage boost is (only) about 12.5.

On a level 8 soldier with 24 AC a 14.275 DPR.

The GWF is doing 1d12+8 and has a 21 point damage boost on a crit (average). The accuracy of the GWF ... is equal. 11.2 DPR on the same target.

Going battlerager costs you about 1.975 DPR (same stats). Going dwarf costs you another 1.375 DPR (+1 damage from dwarf weapon training, -1 to hit from lower str), but gives you temporary HP at a pretty damn good rate.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 09:55 PM
Weapon Talent gives you +1 to hit, and no you cannot "just take it at level 6".
Yeah, I meant "Fighter Weapon Specialization" which is a Feat I am not familiar with :smallredface:

Anyhoo, I won't argue your math (because I can't :smalltongue:) but I still say the Battlerager has greater growth potential. Hide Armor Expertise is a Feat of ridiculous power on a class that is supposed to have low AC and prioritizes CON. While you won't get the fancy Scale & Plate magic armors, your CON will continue to grow, giving you better AC and better THP. That, combined with dips in Barbarian (for the handy Utility 10 that gives you THP as a minor action, for example) can make for one tough Defender with impressive damage output. Oh, and take the Stonefire PP to get a Rage that does 10 or so Fire damage on all enemies within 3 squares :smalltongue:

The reason I went with Dwarf over Goliath, naturally, is to get that +2 damage on one-handed weapons, and a free Craghammer proficiency. I figured that between the +2 to hit from Brash Strike and +1 Weapon Expertise he'll be hitting pretty regularly and doing some fine damage in the process.

Plus, his Hammer Rhythm will up his DPR in Paragon to the tune of 5 damage on a miss; the Weapon Talent Fighter is not going to be able to match that CON growth.

I dunno - what do the numbers say on their respective "growth potentials?"

cupkeyk
2010-02-25, 10:04 PM
I thought all fighters used dwarven armor :P

Tehnar
2010-02-25, 10:07 PM
@Oracle
I was counting that your fighter is using Brash Strike when making at wills. Thats why I am counting his to hit at +7, instead of at +5. And I was assuming both fighters are wearing scale armor.

@Yakk
Now its clear that when both use Brash strike that the battlerager comes out ahead with DPR, that is why my fighter is using reaping strike. And I did not count any bonus a battlerager has from THP since I think it applies less then 10% of the time, for a dwarf battlerager fighter such as Oracle_Hunter described above. Which is from where I got my numbers.

I was sure, and you described so neatly, that a human or goliath fighter can get a very good dps from brash strike. I just said that in a party, dwarven battlerager fighters do not do a good job at dps or party protection.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 10:30 PM
I just said that in a party, dwarven battlerager fighters do not do a good job at dps or party protection.
Now why is this? The Battlerager still gets +WIS on OAs, Marks even on a miss, and can make Combat Challenge attacks. Plus, as far as 1H Fighters go, his DPR isn't exactly lacking [at least as far as I can tell].

The reason I wouldn't recommend Barbarian is that he doesn't "defend" nearly as well. Marking is just handy to have, particularly if you're sporting Defender AC; your Barbarian may be the "focus" of enemy attacks, but if they decide to finish off someone else first, there's not much you can do to dissuade them.

Tehnar
2010-02-25, 10:52 PM
Now why is this? The Battlerager still gets +WIS on OAs, Marks even on a miss, and can make Combat Challenge attacks. Plus, as far as 1H Fighters go, his DPR isn't exactly lacking [at least as far as I can tell].


While he can make opportunity attacks, he gets only a +2 bonus (14 WIS) to them, for a total +7, and doesn't get any bonus for the more important Combat Challenge attacks (unless he takes a feat). Now while his to hit is still almost OK-ish against equal level monsters, against higher level monsters he will be sorely pressed to even keep a modicum of control.* And in my experience, those fights are the hardest to win.

I also feel it gets worse as you level, as you cannot rely on a at will to be effective anymore. Missing a daily when you need it (like Comeback strike) or even a encounter (like that tasty lvl 13 one that stuns) is not such a good idea. Also to keep a good AC you need to take your multiclass feat as a primal class. I generally prefer to multiclass to a leader for the emergency heal when needed (though that also depends on the group, the barbarian multi is also very nice).

*YMMV depending on your DMs play style. If he treats fighters OAs and CC attacks as something to avoid at all costs, you are good on that part.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-25, 11:17 PM
While he can make opportunity attacks, he gets only a +2 bonus (14 WIS) to them, for a total +7, and doesn't get any bonus for the more important Combat Challenge attacks (unless he takes a feat).
Wait... do other Fighters get something extra special for CC?

Anyhoo, as I mentioned you MC Barbarian right off to get Hide Armor Expertise. At Level 10 you MC Daily to swap Rain of Steel for Silver Phoenix Rage (Regen 3 + free Surge at 0 HP). And while you're right about At-Wills becoming less important, it's nice to know that Brash Strike is one At-Will that's just going to keep on giving. In particular, it frees Battleragers to take more Controller-y Invigorating Powers without worrying about (much) lost damage output. Throw in a Big Smash Barbarian Encounter Power, and you're going to be doing alright on the DPR.

Honestly, if anyone doesn't need to worry about missing with big powers it's the Fighter. Many Dailies are Reliable, and there are all sorts of +hit Fighter Powers thrown in there as you advance.

I mean, YMMV is always true, but for the OP's requirements, I'm unconvinced that a GWF (let alone a 1H Fighter) is a better choice.

Tehnar
2010-02-26, 09:47 AM
Wait... do other Fighters get something extra special for CC?


No, but your fighter is up to 4 points behind on his to hit. You won't be hitting a lot with that kind of attack bonus.

Swapping Rain of Steel for some other daily is a very bad move. Rain of Steel (and the like powers) is one of the main reasons fighters are considered strikerish. For level 5 dailies there is really no choice of what power to take, choose Rain of Steel.

Now while you might pick controlery and reliable powers with your fighter, that does not offset your lack of precision. You still need to hit for those powers to take effect, and usually you can't wait to try and hit a target a couple of rounds for the effect to kick in.

If you are low on hp, you probably need that comeback strike to kick in now, not two rounds later. Or that CC attack has to hit so shield push triggers, thus preventing damage to what would be a otherwise dropped leader.

Yakk
2010-02-26, 10:32 AM
@Oracle
I was counting that your fighter is using Brash Strike when making at wills. Thats why I am counting his to hit at +7, instead of at +5. And I was assuming both fighters are wearing scale armor.

@Yakk
Now its clear that when both use Brash strike that the battlerager comes out ahead with DPR, that is why my fighter is using reaping strike. And I did not count any bonus a battlerager has from THP since I think it applies less then 10% of the time, for a dwarf battlerager fighter such as Oracle_Hunter described above. Which is from where I got my numbers.

I was sure, and you described so neatly, that a human or goliath fighter can get a very good dps from brash strike. I just said that in a party, dwarven battlerager fighters do not do a good job at dps or party protection.
Either the monster attacks the Battlerager, and strips the THP off -- in which case, the Battlerager is doing fine with party protection...

Or the monster does not attack the Battlerager, and the Battlerager gets the damage bonus.

That damage bonus is part of how the Battlerager encourages monsters to attack the Battlerager. If you don't attack the Battlerager, the BR gets a free attack on you, and all damage the BR does is boosted.

It is a different mechanic -- but saying at the same time "the monster will just ignore the BR, because the BR lacks threat to make the monster attack the BR" and "the BR has no THP" is simply wrong.

If the BR has THP 10% of the time, and hits 70% of the time, then the monster the BR is attacking is attacking the BR about 130% of the time (based off a less than 50% hit rate on the high-AC battlerager). Which is also relatively impossible. ;)

...

And, on the other hand, your GWF has an AC that will fall behind. Which runs into the problem of "your GWF falls over, dead, before the BR does". The BR has more healing surges, grants himself THP, and has higher AC.

And no, I didn't notice you where using reaping strike. That does explain your high DPR on high-AC targets.

Indon
2010-02-26, 10:46 AM
I'm sure my guy wasn't as optimized as the builds these guys're talking about, but I worked just fine with a critfishing battlerager fighter in terms of dealing out damage.

He used a Vicious Executioner Axe - a 1d12, high-crit, brutal 2 weapon - and stacked to-hit (his PP was Kensai, but could also have been Pit Fighter). I grabbed a bunch of high-[W] powers so I could do a bit of extra damage on-demand above and beyond my at-wills.

The groups strikers weren't exactly super-optimized, but if the DM wasn't ignoring me, I was dealing close to their damage - and if he was ignoring me, I was easily exceeding them.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-26, 05:40 PM
I'm sure my guy wasn't as optimized as the builds these guys're talking about, but I worked just fine with a critfishing battlerager fighter in terms of dealing out damage.
...how does one critfish with a Fighter? :smallconfused:

@Tehnar - so, you'd rather have an automatic +[W] on adjacent enemies than Regen 3 and a free Surge when you hit 0 HP? Particularly when you can also run a Stance while Raging?

I'll admit it isn't a clear-cut win, but since the Battlerager is doing fine on damage already, I'd rather get some extra survival so that I can keep on Defending longer while the party's actual Striker worries about Hitting Weak Points For Massive Damage :smallsmile:

...I suspect Mark Hall is already bored with the Defender-Sub-Striker and is now rolling up a Sentient Badger Monk :smalltongue:

Mark Hall
2010-02-26, 05:57 PM
...I suspect Mark Hall is already bored with the Defender-Sub-Striker and is now rolling up a Sentient Badger Monk :smalltongue:

LOL! Y'all know me too well.

For the record, I made an Avenger MC Paladin. One more person was changing characters, so we had an opening for a Leader, a Defender, and a Striker. Our former Defender decided to bring back her old Shaman, so the former Bard and I got to argue about who was going to choose first (both wanted the other to choose first). I finally went with R'van D'arth, a Deva Avenger modeled primarily on a Jedi. I sold it to Hzurr with "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can imagine."