[3.5] Sahuagin rake

[Nich_Critic]

Hey all,

I'm looking at Sahuagin's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sahuagin) for an encounter, and I'm confused about their rake ability. I know that normally rake is used for grapples, so instead of doing a normal grapple check attack I can do an attacks for +2 (1d4+1). However, it also says I can do two rake attacks while swimming. Is this above and beyond an attack/full attack, or does it replace it?

Also, how would you rate their CR? They seem a little underwhelming at 16 AC with 11 health for a CR 2. 3 of them is apparently a CR 5 encounter, but it's likely my players, at level 3, will kill them as soon as they get an attack. The only saving grace is that 60ft swim speed, which will let them play hit and run for a while, but otherwise it seems like they make decent attacks at a mediocre bonus and then die. Am I missing something here?

[Sinfire Titan]

Constrict is used for Grapples. Rake is used when a weapon hits twice in one round.

[Nich_Critic]

This (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rake) says otherwise, but the one you mentioned does exist (rend I think?). Dndwiki does have errors though, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

[Volkov]

This (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rake) says otherwise, but the one you mentioned does exist (rend I think?). Dndwiki does have errors though, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

The monster manual disagrees with you and agrees with the second poster.

[jiriku]

Basically, the rake attacks get added into the full attack routine whenever the sahaguin is swimming, because its hind legs are no longer occupied with supporting it, as they would be if it was standing on the ground. This is sort of the inverse of the way that dragons receive two extra wing buffet attacks while on the ground because their wings aren't occupied with keeping them aloft.

[Nich_Critic]

The monster manual disagrees with you and agrees with the second poster.

I have the same text as the SRD on page 313 of the monster manual. Is there errata somewhere?


Basically, the rake attacks get added into the full attack routine whenever the sahaguin is swimming, because its hind legs are no longer occupied with supporting it, as they would be if it was standing on the ground. This is sort of the inverse of the way that dragons receive two extra wing buffet attacks while on the ground because their wings aren't occupied with keeping them aloft.

Thats what I wanted to know, thanks. Am I correct in thinking that while grappling you can rake with out an opposed grapple check? And that the other option is use a natural attack with an opposed grapple?

[Indon]

Constrict is used for Grapples. Rake is used when a weapon hits twice in one round.

Rake is also used in grapples. You're thinking of rend, where two claw attacks hit.

IRL, raking is what, say, a cat does with its' rear claws when it grabs something with its' foreclaws. It repeatedly and rapidly claws with its' hind legs, trying to inflict as much damage as possible.

Looking at the article:

When swimming, a sahuagin tears with its feet as it strikes with its talons or a weapon.
This is undoubtedly the intended usage. Basically, when a Sahuagin grapples, it gains access to its' rake attacks.


A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

[Sinfire Titan]

This (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rake) says otherwise, but the one you mentioned does exist (rend I think?). Dndwiki does have errors though, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Ok, my bad. I was thinking of Rend.


Rake requires the creature to initiate a grapple. Next round, when it takes an attack, it gains two additional claw attacks (normally you can only attack with one natural weapon). This replaces the normal attack action when grappling.

[Nich_Critic]

Ok, so which of the following is true?

Out of water:

- A grappling sahuagin gets an additional claw attack with a successful grapple check
- A grappling sahuagin gets a claw attack while grappling they can use without a check

In water
- A sahuagin gets two rake attacks in addition to their full attack in the water
- A sahuagin gets two rake attacks in addition to their natural attack when winning an opposed grapple in the water
- A sahuagin gets two rake attacks they can use without a check while grappling in the water

[Sliver]

Sure, but some creatures gain the rake before the actual grapple is established.. Fleshrakers, felines (like Celestial lions, Dire lions, Hellcats, Dire tigers..). All of these have pounce and improved grab I believe..

Edit: I believe it's the "A sahuagin gets two rake attacks in addition to their full attack in the water"

Hey! I know the sahuagin.. It's in the.. Nevermind.. :smallredface:

[Indon]

Out of water:

- A grappling sahuagin gets an additional claw attack with a successful grapple check
- A grappling sahuagin gets a claw attack while grappling they can use without a check

In water
- A sahuagin gets two rake attacks in addition to their full attack in the water
- A sahuagin gets two rake attacks in addition to their natural attack when winning an opposed grapple in the water
- A sahuagin gets two rake attacks they can use without a check while grappling in the water

Out of water, the sahuagin gets two rake attacks when grappling in addition to its' normal attack routine. These rake attacks do not require winning a grapple check, the sahuagin need only be in the grapple, and they do not suffer a penalty for being used while grapple like most weapon attacks.

In water, the sahuagin gains this ability and additionally may make its' two rake attacks when not grappling as part of its' full attack.

Rake attacks never require a successful grapple check - they require only being able to successfully be in a grapple. For instance, if someone else grapples a sahuagin, and it tries to escape and fails, it's still in a grapple and that guy's in for a nasty surprise.

[Nich_Critic]

Ah, ok. That makes these little things pretty deadly actually. While they aren't likely to win a grapple check against the PC's I can see actually being in the water, they definitely can put on some hurt if engaged in the water.

Thank you :smallbiggrin:.

[Admiral Squish]

With the four-armed ones it's even MORE ridiculous. Seven natural attacks in a round! SEVEN!

[Wings of Peace]

This (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Rake) says otherwise, but the one you mentioned does exist (rend I think?). Dndwiki does have errors though, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Eeeeew. Dandwiki.... use this instead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

[Nich_Critic]

I find they very often have the exact same text on most things, and dndwiki has (for some things) better organization, in that things that have entries are usually linked. If I want the definitive source on things, I'd look at the PH/DMG/MM. The only thing I regret about it is that it doesn't have any sources listed (probably because it's the SRD, not a transcription of the books, so they aren't going to call back to the PH), and sometimes it takes a bit of work to find a proper source on things. And sometimes they strip things that look like fluff from spells which actually have an impact on how they can be used.

[faceroll]

Constrict is used for Grapples. Rake is used when a weapon hits twice in one round.

No, rend is used when s weapon hits twice. Rake is used to mimic a hindfoot attack, like theropod dinosaurs or cats.