3.5 Monster Manuals, Which ones are worthwhile

[Egiam]

So... Which non-core Monster Manuals are worth the money? I have MM5, and it seems kind of... dumb unless you have a very specific entry you wish to use. I do like the Hobgoblin-dedicated and Mindflayer-dedicated sections...

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'd say the MM III is probably the best of the MM sequels. MM IV is less good, but okay. MM II is pretty wacky, and needs a bit of updating to 3.5, but I for one enjoy it. Who doesn't love jermlaines, meenlocks, and wysts?

I believe it requires updating as well, but the Fiend Folio is a very cool book. If you enjoy plane-hopping, it's hard to beat.

Though they are not as concentrated as the proper Monster Manuals, the Fiendish Codices and Lords of Madness have some cool monsters in them.

[Grumman]

Of the ones I've seen, I think MM3 is the best. It's got the three sorts of Warforged and the Living Spell, Spellwarped and Woodling templates.

[Sinfire Titan]

MM5 is actually very good for an Encounter book. They actually did some stuff right in that book (like making sure the enemies could take on optimized PCs if the head count is even).

Most of the Aberrations in that book are especially nasty (one of them has an AMF 5/day).


I recommend MM4 (in spite of Tiamat). It damn near follows the same pattern as MM5, but it also has the Skurrids.



If those little bastards don't challenge your players, something is going horribly wrong.

[Mystic Muse]

If those little bastards don't challenge your players, something is going horribly wrong.

There's only one thing worse than evil squirrels.

Evil squirrels in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace

[faceroll]

MM1 has got classic monsters, but they need feat changes if you're playing outside of core. I like the stuff in MM2, though a lot of people don't. It's full of weird monsters, which is what old school D&D is all about- weird ass creatures that eat you. The CRs are all over the board, but CR is pretty much a useless number, anyway. MM3 has got some cool stuff, too. I don't like 4 & 5 because, as you said, really specific stuff that the rules already gave me.

[BRC]

MMIII is very useful. Some of it's monsters are highly over CR'd (Fleshrippers), but it's generally good stuff.

[Tiktakkat]

There's only one thing worse than evil squirrels.

Evil squirrels in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace

How about just strange squirrel worshipers?
http://melkot.com/locations/irongate/ig-skratzivort.html
And yes, I do have a player who is squirrelly.

[Eldariel]

MMIII's biggest failing is the existence of Fleshraker... But it's a decent book anyways. Just...give Fleshrakers 3 extra levels of adjustment for Druid or something. They'll STILL be good.

[hamishspence]

I believe it requires updating as well, but the Fiend Folio is a very cool book. If you enjoy plane-hopping, it's hard to beat.

It requires a bit less updating though- Damage reduction, and possibly the CRs for a few of the fiends.

Since it was a late 3.0 book, and the 3.5 style was already beginning to manifest itself (Fiend Folio might be called "proto-3.5"). The Extraplanar subtype. Square areas, instead of sometimes rectangular. Survival, instead of Wilderness Lore.

[Eldariel]

FF is really 3.5 save for DR, which is still in X/+X format.

[hamishspence]

yes- though I think Kaortis need a change to their SLAs, since they had Alter Self and Reduce, which don't work on Outsiders.

Dragon 358 (August 2007) recommended replacing them with Disguise Self, and Comprehend Languages.

on fiendish CRs- the Fiendish Codexes officially change them:

Demons:
Alkilith- CR 14 in FF, CR 10 according to FC1
Blood Fiend- CR 14 in both
Klurichir- CR 25 in FF, CR 17 according to FC1
Maurezhi- CR 9,10,11,12,13 in FF, CR 3,4,5,6,7,8 9,10 according to FC1
Myrmyxius- CR 21 in FF, CR 17 according to FC1
Skulvyn- CR 4 in both
Wastrilith- CR 17 in FF, CR 11 in FC1

Devils- both are restatted in FC2 anyway. However:
Paeliryon- CR 22 in FF, CR 18 in FC2
Xerfilstyx- CR 18 in FF, CR 15 in FC2

[Sinfire Titan]

yes- though I think Kaortis need a change to their SLAs, since they had Alter Self and Reduce, which don't work on Outsiders.

Dragon 358 (August 2007) recommended replacing them with Disguise Self, and Comprehend Languages.

Alter Self works on Outsiders. Hell, that's the biggest abuse of the spell!

[hamishspence]

Whoever wrote that article must not have been paying very close attention...

I think the point was, that since with Alter Self you can only change into a creature of your type, kaortis can't masquerade as humans with it the way they could in 3.0. Though technicially pretending to be Outsiders of the most humanlike appearence should work- aasimar, for example.

[TheCountAlucard]

The best Monster Manuals were the odd-numbered ones, though even the even-numbered ones had some good creatures.

Also, some of the type-specific splats are pretty nice... (LoM, Libris Mortis, et cetera...)

[AslanCross]

MM III is the best, I agree. MMIV is kinda bad, though I like the Spawn of Tiamat.

MM II is the worst. Really random CRs. Some are too low, some are too high. CR 9 monster with at-will disintegrate, implosion and MORDENKAINEN'S DISJUNCTION?! :smalleek:

I do agree that the type-specific ones (LM and Fiendish Codices) are also pretty good.

[The_Snark]

MM II is the worst. Really random CRs. Some are too low, some are too high. CR 9 monster with at-will disintegrate, implosion and MORDENKAINEN'S DISJUNCTION?! :smalleek:

Ah, the Adamantine Horror. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that someone at WotC forgot that you don't get 9th-level spells at level 9...

[Sinfire Titan]

Ah, the Adamantine Horror. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that someone at WotC forgot that you don't get 9th-level spells at level 9...

I explain it so it has the same origins as the Rust Monster.

[Inhuman Bot]

Ah, the Adamantine Horror. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that someone at WotC forgot that you don't get 9th-level spells at level 9...

I, personally, support the theory of the maker of that beastie accidently leaving out a digit of it's CR.

[jokey665]

I've always liked the odd-numbered monster manuals more than the even-numbered ones.

[mikej]

MM III, fun of good stuff. Has the popular Fleshraker Dinosaur :smallbiggrin:

[Rappy]

I'll put my voice in the crowd for the Monster Manual III; really, it's one of the best

Outside of Wizards of the Coast, I'd also pick up the Tome of Horrors unless you're bothered by "weird" monsters.

[Runestar]

So... Which non-core Monster Manuals are worth the money? I have MM5, and it seems kind of... dumb unless you have a very specific entry you wish to use. I do like the Hobgoblin-dedicated and Mindflayer-dedicated sections...

The designers flat out admitted this was their intention. With so many monster splatbooks available, they were no longer under any pressure to "cover all the bases" by creating extremely generic creatures and were now free to design narrowly-focused monsters for used in specific scenarios/contexts.

For me, I too say MM3 and 5. MM4 was quite uninspiring, though it at least has the edge of properly cr'ed monsters. Conversely, the monsters in MM2 were very cool, but poorly designed. I would really like to know what was going through the minds of the design team when they designed adamantine horror and the playtesting process which gave it a cr9. :smallannoyed:

[Raiki]

Everyone saying that MMII has a bunch of funky problems but is worthwhile anyway? Yeah, they hit that right on the head.

I can't forget the pre-game practice session I ran for one of my PCs. The game was starting at level 3, so I picked out a nice CR2 demon from MM2. I forget which one it was, and I'm AFB, but near the end of the encounter, after he had chipped away most of its HP, I noticed that it had Polymorph as a level 12 Sorcerer. Let me repeat that. The CR2 creature had polymorph as a level 12 sorcerer. Needless to say, I realized at this point that the battle was not a good measurement of PC power, so the demon flew 60' above the PC (yeah, it could fly too) and polymorphed into a baleen whale. The resulting falling damage killed them both.

~R~

[Kaiyanwang]

I've to say that yes, a lot of CRs in MMII are broken to the bone.

Nevertheless, a lot of monsters there, exspecially undead (Banshee, Famine Spirit, Death Knight, Ragewind, Effigy, Crimsom Death, Deathbringer), and magical beasts (thinking about Phoenix) are very cool, and if you fix few things is a book full of interesting monsters.

Think about unique abilities like the one of Spellweaver, or the JOvoc Demon.

I found very interesting Fiend Folio, too even if sometimes suffers of the MMII Syndome (Chronotryn, so cool, so strong, so wrong).

[magic9mushroom]

Ah, the Adamantine Horror. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that someone at WotC forgot that you don't get 9th-level spells at level 9...

If you have a Tanglefoot Bag, you can beat it. The thing has a +0 Concentration modifier, and will lose its SLAs 70% of the time. Also, it's meant to only show up with a crapload of other Clockwork Horrors, so the CR will be inflated by 3 or 4 and you won't run into it at level 5.

There's also the fact that you're going to know about it quite a while before you fight it, and will likely have the ability to prepare (like with Dragons) because it's likely going to show up as the BBEG of a Clockwork Horror invasion.

So yeah, if you prepare for it with Tanglefoot Bags, initiative boosters, avoiding ambushes, and possibly Disintegrate (since it has a very crappy Fort save), you can kill it.

[Roc Ness]

I, personally, support the theory of the maker of that beastie accidently leaving out a digit of it's CR.

Yeah. CR 19 seems more a bit more appropriate.

I enjoy the MM II. Sure the CR is inappropriate in a lot of cases, but the ones that are right are quite fun. (Like the Corrolax)

[magic9mushroom]

Yeah. CR 19 seems more a bit more appropriate.

I enjoy the MM II. Sure the CR is inappropriate in a lot of cases, but the ones that are right are quite fun. (Like the Corrolax)

CR 19 is not appropriate. By that point, the wizard has Foresight up and can Disintegrate the Horror before it can do anything.

[Runestar]

Yeah. CR 19 seems more a bit more appropriate.

I enjoy the MM II. Sure the CR is inappropriate in a lot of cases, but the ones that are right are quite fun. (Like the Corrolax)

It would be way too fragile to stand up to a 19th lv party. That and by the time you encounter one, its minions would be too weak to challenge them.

Cr9 seems intentional. The SLAs simply need to be replaced. Any suggestions? Maybe replace disjunction with dispel magic, disintegrate with scorching ray (or some other damage spell appropriate for that cr) and implosion with...??? Phantasmal horror 1/day?

Give it quicken SLA (so it can fire off a free spell while attacking each round) and we are set. :smallbiggrin:

[Roc Ness]

CR 19 is not appropriate. By that point, the wizard has Foresight up and can Disintegrate the Horror before it can do anything.

Most Wizards don't have foresight up, regardless of the "optimisation/common sense" error stuff. Then the horror becomes a glass cannon minion with the sole purpose of trying to disable the enemy for some other tough guy.

[Zeta Kai]

As others have said (& seems to be the general consensus elsewhere), the odd-numbered MMs (I, III, & V) are superior to the odd-numbered MMs (II & IV). MM2 is bogged down by editing & proofreading issues, while MM4 is less popular for a number of small factors.

MM4 introduced the "new & improved" monster stat block, which took the stats we were used to seeing for the previous 5+ years (which was a variation on the stat blocks from earlier editions) & rearranged them to the point where it took twice as long for veterans to read it. This slowed down the game significantly for long-time players & DMs, while theoretically making things easier for new players, who didn't know the difference.

MM4 also devoted a good deal of space toward advancing classic monsters with class levels, which is something experienced DMs had been doing for years & could arguably do better. This was considered to be a waste of pages, as well as padding on WotC's part.

Lastly, MM4 introduced the Spawn of Tiamat. And by introduced, I mean "used a quarter of the book to showcase, which is another huge waste of space for DMs who aren't gonna use them in their campaign." Monster books have a lot of monsters in them, naturally, & not all of them are gonna get used by a particular DM. But the SoT are kind of a set: you would probably use them all, or not use any of them. So, if you weren't going to use them for whatever reason, then a big chunk of the book that you just paid for went out the window. Now, I like them, & they can be adapted somewhat easily, but I could see how others would skip them, & there were just so many of them. WotC should have made only half as many, & saved the space for monsters with a different theme.

I'll note that MM5 suffered from all of the same problems as MM4, but used them far better. We were used to the new stat block (kinda), or at least weren't un/pleasantly surprised by it. The advanced classic monsters were done better/more thoroughly. And the Mindflayers of Thoon were much cooler & had more variety than the Spawn of Tiamat.

[Kaiyanwang]

MM4 introduced the "new & improved" monster stat block, which took the stats we were used to seeing for the previous 5+ years (which was a variation on the stat blocks from earlier editions) & rearranged them to the point where it took twice as long for veterans to read it. This slowed down the game significantly for long-time players & DMs, while theoretically making things easier for new players, who didn't know the difference.


I had the same deal.. even if, the things that REALLY annoyed me was introduced, IIRC, in MMIII: the premade Power Attack subtraction. Why shouldn't be I able to adjudicate case by case the usage of PA?

Did they think that people are dumb?

[Yora]

You can. But for example in the Star Wars Saga books, I think it's really convenient to have it printed right there, so you can just flip up the book without having to stop for some moments to check what feats and weapons the creature has, which options that offers to you, and what the AB and damage for each option would be.
It's just one or two extra lines for each stat block, and I think it's quite useful.

Except if you mean something entirely different here.

[Moglorosh]

Did they think that people are dumb?
It's better to assume people are too dumb to understand something than it is to assume that they are too smart for a little hand-holding. Nobody ever went broke underestimating their audience.

[Runestar]

I had the same deal.. even if, the things that REALLY annoyed me was introduced, IIRC, in MMIII: the premade Power Attack subtraction. Why shouldn't be I able to adjudicate case by case the usage of PA?

Did they think that people are dumb?

My guess is that they wanted the final product to do more damage than its stats would normally allow, so they used power attack to make up the lack of damage. Either that or they didn't want it to hit so often, so again, power attack as a convenient tool to degrade its attack. Take that cave troll for instance. A full attack (with rakes) can easily take down a fighter at full hp if they didn't have it PA.

The real annoying thing comes in fiendish codex, where they often don't tell you how much the creature PAs for (so time is wasted reverse-engineering its stat block), and worse, the final numbers don't even add up! :smallmad:


Lastly, MM4 introduced the Spawn of Tiamat. And by introduced, I mean "used a quarter of the book to showcase, which is another huge waste of space for DMs who aren't gonna use them in their campaign."

They are actually fairly potent and some can be reflavoured quite readily. I know that redspawn arcanist made for a rather powerful sorc npc, I once used the white spawn (the cr1 whatever it is called) as reskinned kobolds with a hint of white dragon ancestry. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

It's better to assume people are too dumb to understand something than it is to assume that they are too smart for a little hand-holding. Nobody ever went broke underestimating their audience.

The principal issue is that it's far more trouble to figure out what the creature's real attack bonus is when the PA is pre-subtracted which means that part of the stat block is practically useless for someone actually competent enough to use Power Attack themselves; you generally just have to forget about it and recalculate the attack bonuses since it comes into play a lot, especially when dealing with high AC characters or maneuvers requiring opposed attack rolls (e.g. Disarm) or similars.

If they really wanted to pre-PA, they could've just typed "Usually PAs for -3" or something next to the stat block. That'd be far more useful as then you'd have the the base data in the book and thus don't need to start counting crap when you use the monster.

[Kaiyanwang]

My guess is that they wanted the final product to do more damage than its stats would normally allow, so they used power attack to make up the lack of damage. Either that or they didn't want it to hit so often, so again, power attack as a convenient tool to degrade its attack. Take that cave troll for instance. A full attack (with rakes) can easily take down a fighter at full hp if they didn't have it PA.


My point is that It's far better, IMHO, leave the DM decide on the fly how much power attack with the monste, and not to recalculate the max AC beatable with a reasonably high hit and so on. Without, as you say, reverse-engineering..


The principal issue is that it's far more trouble to figure out what the creature's real attack bonus is when the PA is pre-subtracted which means that part of the stat block is practically useless for someone actually competent enough to use Power Attack themselves; you generally just have to forget about it and recalculate the attack bonuses since it comes into play a lot, especially when dealing with high AC characters or maneuvers requiring opposed attack rolls (e.g. Disarm) or similars.

If they really wanted to pre-PA, they could've just typed "Usually PAs for -3" or something next to the stat block. That'd be far more useful as then you'd have the the base data in the book and thus don't need to start counting crap when you use the monster.

Exactly. Exactly..

[Yora]

Okay, in that case I agree it's really stupid. :smallbiggrin:

[SpikeFightwicky]

Despite the whacky CRs, I'll always have a soft-spot for MMII because it brings in all the 2nd Ed./AD&D monsters that I missed from MMI (Phoenix, Banshee, Sylph, Jermlaine, Death Knight, Firbolg, Grell, Hook Horror, Myconid, Thri-Kreen, etc...) True, most of them had to be worked on/modified to get them right, but it was a good base.

I'll stand by MMIII being the my favorite. I liked a lot of the stuff in MMV also (go Kuo-Tua!).

[bosssmiley]

MM1 & 3, FF.

All other MMs were gas huffing idiocy and/or lazy "Good enough. Go to press" hackjobbery. :smallannoyed:

MM2 was a badly edited mess.
MM4 was page bloated by crappy fluff and sprawling statblocks.
MM5 was nothing but prototype 4E-ish monster mechanics released as a completed book (*durp* "Da monster be diffrunt when lose half its HP").

But then I think the original FF (100% British content) is the best monster book ever made for D&D.


"More than once I've argued for the ultimate awesomeness of a world where the Fiend Folio is the primary monster book. And looking at the scant list above (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2007/10/mightiest-monsters-1st-ed-fiend-folio.html) I'm actually kinda leaning towards the idea that the FF better fits with the 3 Little Beige Books than [does] the Monster Manual.

What would a game world look like where the original daemons and the slaad were the primary extraplanar foes? A world where the Eye of Fear & Flame was the number one undead baddie? Where people feared fogbanks because they might contain the mightiest of giants? Sounds pretty effin' cool to me."
-- Jeff Rients

[Zeta Kai]

They are actually fairly potent and some can be reflavoured quite readily. I know that redspawn arcanist made for a rather powerful sorc npc, I once used the white spawn (the cr1 whatever it is called) as reskinned kobolds with a hint of white dragon ancestry. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not saying that the Spawn of Tiamat weren't good; they were. What I'm saying is that they are presented as a package, with the implication that they are to be used as such. That essentially makes them one big monster-group, like the Mindflayers of Thoon from MM5, or the Kythons from BoVD. So if you weren't gonna use them in your campaign, for whatever reason, then that's a significant chunk of the book that you just paid for that might as well go out the window. It'd be like having a monster book with ~30 pages just dedicated to warforged. Yeah, a lot of people might think that's cool, but if you're not using warforged in your campaign, then it's useless to you.

[Tiktakkat]

They are actually fairly potent and some can be reflavoured quite readily. I know that redspawn arcanist made for a rather powerful sorc npc, I once used the white spawn (the cr1 whatever it is called) as reskinned kobolds with a hint of white dragon ancestry. :smallbiggrin:

Hah! I started my last campaign with the players heading into an area where the locals told them about the "Legendary Giant Albino Kobolds of the Crystalmist Mountains", which of course were whitespawn hordelings.
And, doubling down, when needing a spellcaster for a bunch of troglodytes with a connection to a red dragon in my current campaign, the redspawn arcaniss was perfect to save me time and effort of writing up an entire NPC from scratch.

So indeed, the dragonspawn have a lot of tweak potential like that.

[TheCountAlucard]

As others have said, the odd-numbered MMs are superior to the odd-numbered MMs.Whatever you say, man. :smalltongue:

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I picked a ... CR2 demon from MM2No you didn't.