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Ice&Fire
2010-02-24, 04:27 PM
I'm trying to put together a build based around a bard that optimizes Leadership, Undead Leadership etc. and making his army of followers/cohorts a force to be reckoned with. For the bard himself, i was thinking something along the lines of Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver.

Are there any guides around that could be helpful, or what kind of feats/PrC's/spells/items etc. could be useful in either making the bard a better buffer or improving on leadership (including other kinds of leadership) ?

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-24, 04:47 PM
I'm trying to put together a build based around a bard that optimizes Leadership, Undead Leadership etc. and making his army of followers/cohorts a force to be reckoned with. For the bard himself, i was thinking something along the lines of Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver.

Are there any guides around that could be helpful, or what kind of feats/PrC's/spells/items etc. could be useful in either making the bard a better buffer or improving on leadership (including other kinds of leadership) ?

Well...Leadership tends to be considered as stinky-grade cheese for a reason, and that's because it allows you to have a Cohort. The followers don't matter much, but the Cohort is essentially a character (who may or may not be under your control, but usually does) that's at least two levels behind. Taking ANY class (for you) and then making a Wizard cohort/Cleric cohort is sure to make your game far more powerful. A Cleric with a Wizard cohort or a Cleric with a Wizard cohort is sure to make your game a nightmare. Worse, since your cohort doesn't take from your XP but rather "levels" as you do, you're effectively making a character that doesn't drain the party's XP pool.

However, if you want to make your followers more powerful...you can start thinking on characters with teamwork trained benefits and perhaps the feats that require two or more people adjacent. Then, make sure you can work something decent with those followers.

If you wish to maximize the power of your followers and seek to take them to combat, anything with the White Raven discipline. Since those grant maneuvers that depend on people to work, your followers will multiply the power of those strikes. If for some strange and odd reason you somehow get War Master's Charge, you'll see why it's so broken to have a Warblade/Crusader as either your character or your cohort.

Then, if you get to Heroes of Battle, you'll get most of the feats for followers, plus the feat to increase the level of the cohort you get. Then, you do the scaling Leadership cheese, and break the game into it's main components pretty much.

So yeah...Leadership doesn't need much optimization actually. If you want to make your followers more powerful, however, those are good choices. Cohort? It comes pre-broken already.

kentma57
2010-02-24, 04:48 PM
Step 1: Make yourself, every follower, and cohort a psion
Step 2: Cast Metaconcert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm)
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit

strider24seven
2010-02-24, 04:48 PM
You ought to post what material you have available.

However, you may wish to consider this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7228.0)- it's actually pretty good at what it does: controlling others.

But yeah... a Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver would be pretty awesome. A level of Mindbender plus Mindsight from Lords of Madness also lets you communicate with your minions telepathically AND be effectively immune to surprise. A level or two of Marshal wouldn't hurt either. Motivate Strength can be pretty brutal. With Undead Leadership, any sort of divine casting can be pretty nice, like the above build. A level of Warblade or Crusader can get you White Raven tactics, which can help your allies out. If you're into Psionics, Thrallherd is a decent substitution for Leadership for two cohorts at a higher level.

If you can, take an Artificer (or twenty) as a cohort (or followers) to make items for your army.

Edit: Ninja'd with the White Raven.

NEO|Phyte
2010-02-24, 04:49 PM
Step 1: Make every follower and cohort a psion
Step 2: Cast Metaconcert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm)
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit
Step three is entirely too meaningful, given how Metaconcert works (specifically, the fact that the rules are insufficiently clear on the matter)

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-24, 04:51 PM
Well, be an orc, throw in a level of Cancer Mage, contract Festering Anger, pick up Might Makes Right, and then get a strength score of AH with a maxed out Leadership score ASAP. Then take Brutal Throw and kill gods by using improvised weapon rules and throwing little wadded up balls of paper at them. And then duck when the DM starts throwing books at you.

Overshee
2010-02-24, 06:05 PM
(Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) is leadership on steroids)

Ice&Fire
2010-02-24, 08:43 PM
You ought to post what material you have available.

However, you may wish to consider this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7228.0)- it's actually pretty good at what it does: controlling others.

But yeah... a Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver would be pretty awesome. A level of Mindbender plus Mindsight from Lords of Madness also lets you communicate with your minions telepathically AND be effectively immune to surprise. A level or two of Marshal wouldn't hurt either. Motivate Strength can be pretty brutal. With Undead Leadership, any sort of divine casting can be pretty nice, like the above build. A level of Warblade or Crusader can get you White Raven tactics, which can help your allies out. If you're into Psionics, Thrallherd is a decent substitution for Leadership for two cohorts at a higher level.

If you can, take an Artificer (or twenty) as a cohort (or followers) to make items for your army.

Edit: Ninja'd with the White Raven.

Ok yea, i probably should've stated sources. Any 3.5 Wotc D&D products, including dragon magazine. Could potentially use 3rd party with some convincing.

Is there any rule stopping cohorts from taking leadership again? A thrallherd cohort might be an interesting addition.

Are there any feats that help with leadership scores or other leadership improvements? I remember someone talking about a feat with a name similar to tyrant or something. Allowed you to be as mean to yor followers as you wanted and you got no minuses to leadership

Akal Saris
2010-02-24, 09:56 PM
I don't think there's a rule against them taking it, except that russian doll schemes with leadership tend to be exceedingly silly.

The benevolent dictator feat is 3rd party, from the Complete Blackguard or something similar. Turns your negatives (cruelty, etc) into positives for followers only.

Otherwise there are feats that aid leadership and give a small bonus to your score in Heroes of Battle, as well as Ecclesiarch from the Eberron Campaign Setting.

I think the optimal character to buff his followers would probably be a bard/crusader, or a crusader/cleric/ruby knight vindicator, or a wizard/war weaver build.

I've made a few leadership builds of my own with the goal of hitting 25 leadership as soon as you reach 6th level, which gives a 4th level cohort (eh...) and a pair of 6th level followers (!!).

Leader builds:

Orc leader:

Golfimbul
Water Orc Barbarian 2/Orc Paragon 3/Marshal 1/ Orc Warlord 3 = 24 leadership at 6th

Books:
Mini's HB (Marshal)
Races of Faerun (Orc Warlord) (Req's Orc, BAB +5, nongood, intimidate 8, ride 5, survival 5, barbarian rage, feats: might makes right)
Player's Guide to Faerun
UA: water orcs, orc paragon

32 PB
Str 24 (26 with gauntlets)
Dex 8
Con 10
Int 6
Wis 6
Cha 16 (18 with periapt)

BAB: +5
Trip (in a rage w/a MW weapon): +14 touch, +19 to the check, for 1d10+12 damage.

Variants: Lion totem barbarian and Wolf totem barbarian for pounce and improved trip

Feats:
1st:
2nd bonus: Improved Trip
3rd: Skill Focus: Diplomacy
6th: Leadership
6th bonus: Might Makes Right (from Marshal)
Later:
9th: Extra Followers (doubles followers, +1 to leadership)

Aura: Art of War (Bonus on trip, disarm, sunder checks)

Skills:
Intimidate 9 ranks
Survival 5 ranks
Ride 5 ranks
Diplomacy 4 ranks

Items:
Gauntlets of Strength 4k
Periapt of Wisdom 4k
Keep for 4k?
Gear for 1k?

Leadership:
+8 Str
+4 Cha
+6 level
+2 renown
+2 keep
+1 special power
+1 fairness and generosity
= 24
orc warchief races of faerun 185


Undead leader:

(Venerable Necropolitan) Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Marshal 1

Build progression: Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon +2/Sorcerer +1/Marshal 1

Feats:
1st:
1st bonus (open)
3rd bonus (open)
3rd (Ecclesiarch, EBCS)
6th (Undead Leadership)
6th bonus marshal: Natural Leader (Heroes of Battle)

Leadership:
+8 Cha (4 base, 1 cloak, 1 from human paragon, 1.5+.5=2 from venerable and 4th level)
+6 level
+2 ecclesiarch
+2 natural leader
+2 undead leadership
+2 renown
+2 keep
+1 special power
+1 fairness and generosity
= 25

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-24, 10:23 PM
Is there any rule stopping cohorts from taking leadership again? A thrallherd cohort might be an interesting addition.
Want some real fun? Improved Psicrystal improves your psicrysta's abilities by one level. It can be taken multiple times. Those abilities include hit die. At six hit die, your psicrystal can take Leadership, so if you manage to take Improved Psicrystal three times, then at level three, you can have a 6HD psicrystal with Leadership and a level 4 cohort. A 4th-level Psion with three instances of Improved Psicrystal, for a psicrystal with a 5th-level Psion cohort. Repeat ad infinitum.

Volthawk
2010-02-25, 02:15 PM
How about giving your cohort Leadership?

And then giving it to the next...

And the next...

And so on

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-25, 02:30 PM
How about giving your cohort Leadership?

And then giving it to the next...

And the next...

And so onI always rule that cohorts are cohorts specifically because they lack the ability to lead. Should a cohort ever gain the leadership feat, he will immediately leave the player character and go do his own thing.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-25, 02:39 PM
I always rule that cohorts are cohorts specifically because they lack the ability to lead. Should a cohort ever gain the leadership feat, he will immediately leave the player character and go do his own thing.

Which is why you use the Psicrystal trick above. The Cohort has a Psicrystal, but the Psicrystal has the next Leadership feat.


Think like the Hypnotoad!

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-25, 02:55 PM
Yes, I understand the trick. However, my opinion still stands - if a character has the leadership feat, he will not serve. He will lead. If you manage to give your Psicrystal leadership, he will not want to 'serve' as your Psicrystal anymore. He will want to do something else. But that's just me.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-25, 02:59 PM
Here's my thought:

Race: Vampire Human (yes, LA sux. Whatev)
Class: Bard 3/Egoist 9/Thrallherd 5/That Vampire Leader Class 5/Mindbender 1

Greenish
2010-02-25, 03:17 PM
That Vampire Leader Class 5Lord of Dead? (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)

Kantolin
2010-02-25, 03:37 PM
While unlikely to be optimal, if you manage to get Warchanter 10, you can give everyone who hears you sing a base attack bonus equal to whomever has the highest BAB in the group.

Having a whole group of followers with the BAB of your party's 15th level beatstick is pretty dang awesome.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 04:06 PM
Here's my thought:

Race: Vampire Human (yes, LA sux. Whatev)
Class: Bard 3/Egoist 9/Thrallherd 5/That Vampire Leader Class 5/Mindbender 1

An ECL 30something build is useful how?

ericgrau
2010-02-25, 04:55 PM
Well actually bardic music doesn't seem to have a limit on how many people it can affect. Grabbing a PrC with some serious boosts could make your army downright ridiculous.

absolmorph
2010-02-25, 05:11 PM
Well actually bardic music doesn't seem to have a limit on how many people it can affect. Grabbing a PrC with some serious boosts could make your army downright ridiculous.
Dragonfire Inspiration?

Ice&Fire
2010-02-26, 02:31 AM
Dragonfire Inspiration?

Well that WAS part of the plan, haha, along with a bunch of buffs to make my followers a threat.

Speaking of which, is there any way to get Venomfire onto the bard/sorc/wizard spell list, and, if so, is there any low ECL humanoids that I could attract as followers to cast it on?

Jayngfet
2010-02-26, 02:57 AM
I had a DM that said that while I was only allowed three people following me max, I got to stat them all to whatever class I saw fit if their first level was an NPC class.

Climb ranks, use magic device, magic missile wands. You're dealing that much more damage while the main party keeps it busy.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 03:05 AM
Be a Thrallherd. Make your thralls thrallherds. Also make your believers thrallherds.

Now you can manifest Metaconcert among the entities created by Metaconcert. :smallyuk:

Also, you have a disposable army (hooray for no "cruelty" modifier).

(Incidentally, is it just me, or does D&D psionics include lots of ripped-off concepts from Julian May?)

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 03:06 AM
Thrallherds can't have leadership, but can be Thrallherds themselves.

SO, if we mix all the tricks...

Get leadership, and be Thrallherd. Get 1 cohort + 2 Thralls. Cohort takes leadership. Rinse repeat. All cohorts are also Thrallherds. They each get 2 thralls.

Thralls are also Thrallherds. Thus they gets 2 thralls each. Rinse repeat.

All are psion. With Psicrystal with leadership. (Can we get the psicrystal to be a thrallherd? That'll be fun).

Godskook
2010-02-26, 03:10 AM
Here's a piece of some of the least-cheesy leadership op-fu: Specialists. Having a PC who's sole duty in life is to stay up all night standing guard duty is dull and boring. Having 2-3 followers optimized to the brim(to make up for their poor levels) is just useful. I mean, the ease at which a L1 character can get a +15 or better on a skill check when they have nothing better to do with their feats or life is pitiful.


Want some real fun? Improved Psicrystal improves your psicrysta's abilities by one level. It can be taken multiple times. Those abilities include hit die. At six hit die, your psicrystal can take Leadership, so if you manage to take Improved Psicrystal three times, then at level three, you can have a 6HD psicrystal with Leadership and a level 4 cohort. A 4th-level Psion with three instances of Improved Psicrystal, for a psicrystal with a 5th-level Psion cohort. Repeat ad infinitum.

Yes, my 4th level Psion is technically in charge of that deity. What of it? (http://xkcd.com/704/)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 03:11 AM
Thrallherds can't have leadership, but can be Thrallherds themselves.

SO, if we mix all the tricks...

Get leadership, and be Thrallherd. Get 1 cohort + 2 Thralls. Cohort takes leadership. Rinse repeat. All cohorts are also Thrallherds. They each get 2 thralls.

Thralls are also Thrallherds. Thus they gets 2 thralls each. Rinse repeat.

All are psion. With Psicrystal with leadership. (Can we get the psicrystal to be a thrallherd? That'll be fun).

You can't have leadership if you're a Thrallherd. When you take your first level in the PrC your cohort and followers lose faith in you and leave.

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 03:14 AM
AH, crap I misread that one as Thralls cannot have leadership, and not you. Unfortunately, that means your thralls can have leadership. Though them being Thrallherds also is much better

Heliomance
2010-02-26, 03:17 AM
How is Thrallherd better than Leadership? There are a plethora of things that improve/stack with leadership, none that synergise with Thrallherd.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-26, 03:19 AM
Thrallherd maxes out its Leadership score much faster, and it can potentially get 2 cohorts. Practically, it's much better for Evil characters, because you can sacrifice your followers and cohorts whenever you feel like with no side effects beyond a 24 hour delay.

It doesn't have the same feat-based support that Leadership does, though.

Greenish
2010-02-26, 03:39 AM
How is Thrallherd better than Leadership? There are a plethora of things that improve/stack with leadership, none that synergise with Thrallherd.Thrallherd levels are counted twice for your leadership modifier, so you don't have to jump through any hoops to get it high. Your first thrall is only one level lower than you, and you get a second one too.

Oh, and there's no penalty from cruelty, aloofness, failure, moving around a lot or causing the deaths of your followers.

There's no penalty in getting the thralls killed (or having a familiar etc. or recruiting someone with different alignment) either, and you get new ones in 24 hours.

:smallcool:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 03:41 AM
How is Thrallherd better than Leadership? There are a plethora of things that improve/stack with leadership, none that synergise with Thrallherd.

As has been said, you don't need anything to stack with Thrallherd, because your leadership score maxes out at level 15 even with a +0 Charisma, and doesn't take penalties. Also, you get the benefit of that feat that gives you a cohort one level below you for free, and a second cohort.

Gaiyamato
2010-02-26, 03:43 AM
No one has yet pointed out the obvious yet:

Full progrssion
Psion 5/Thrallherd 1/Metamind 10/Thrallherd 4

The Psicrystal uses it's cohort to get another Psion/Thrallherd with a psi crystal and Thrallherds.
Your Thrallherds (and those of your Psi crystal's cohort) are all Psion/Thrallherds with Psi crystals who also get Psion/thrallherds and get thrallherd Psion/Thrallherds.

When you can go no further use Metaconcert.

Whats a good +0ECL race to maxamise this? lol.
I know a group of very obnoxious players who play 3.5 dnd all the time. They are running a level 11 campaign and want me to start as a level 6 character if I wish to join (because they all started at that level).
I think even at level 6 I could break it with this.

All of this aside I was tinkering with the leadership ideas with this:


Race: Orog
True Neutral
Worships Skadi

STR: +6
DEX: -2
CON:
INT:
WIS: -2
CHA: +2

Level 1: Orog 1
Level 1: Daylight Adaptation
Flaw: Iron Will
Flaw: Will to Live
Level 2: Orog 2
Level 3: Barbarian - Bear totem 1 - Berserker Strength
Barbarian: Toughness
Level 3: Weapon Focus (Great Axe)
Level 4: Barbarian 2
Barbarian: Improved Grapple
Level 5: Barbarian 3
Barbarian: Greate Fortitude
Level 6: Fighter 1
Fighter: Power attack
Level 6: Leadership
Level 7: Fighter 2
Fighter: Cleave
Level 8: Ledgendary Captain 1
LC: Great Captain
Level 9: Ledgendary Captain 2
Level 9: Might makes Right
Level 10: Orc Warlord 1
Level 11: Orc Warlord 2
Level 12: Orc Warlord 3
Level 12: Extra Followers
Level 13: Divine Crusader 1
Domain: Strength
Level 14: Divine Crusader 2
Level 15: Divine Crusader 3
Level 15: Landlord
Level 16: Divine Crusader 4
Level 17: Divine Crusader 5
DC: Weapon Specialisation (Great Axe)
Level 18: Warmaster 1

Trying to find a way to make things go faster and better with the Orog war leader. The level restriction and prerequisite restriction for some of the feats is a real pain. Meeting a couple of the skill requirements will be a pain as well.
I turned the Orog race into a 2 level racial class to make it easier. But if possible LA buy-back would be the better option here.

The idea is to have an Orc leading a huge band of Orcs/Humans/Goblins/Kobolds in ships who follow the Norse Gods and raid random settlements viking style.
Use the Landlord income and the free tower etc. from Warmaster to make some remote fortress and a small town. Capture women as slaves and bring them back, that sort of thing.

I'd love to run this guy in a 3.5 sandbox. :D

I had though about adding the lolth-touched template onto this, but the requirement to be chaotic evil barred me from Warmaster Prc and the extra LA was a real pain. But I do miss the +6STR and +6CON. :(

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 03:56 AM
How is Metamind relevant, and why are you taking it given that it loses you a pile of manifester levels?

Getting to Thrallherd 10 is better.

Gaiyamato
2010-02-26, 04:22 AM
How is Metamind relevant, and why are you taking it given that it loses you a pile of manifester levels?

Getting to Thrallherd 10 is better.

Not really, the only thing you really gain between levels 1 and 10 are a few 1/day or similar abilities that are duplicated by your powers anyway. The loss of Psion progression levels would normally be bad but look at the Metamind powers.
Now imagine hundreds of metaminds linked into one incredible Metaconcert with hundreds of super charged psi-crystals containing tens of thousands of PP for the Metaconcert group mind to draw from.
Pool all of that starting gold and just make one huge fortress, get a bunch of Psionically constructs to keep the psions all alive while they maintain the Metaconcert indefinately (in effect).

You dont need to worry about progression when you can fire a psionic dart that could destroy gods in a single hit. lol.

Yora
2010-02-26, 04:26 AM
But how often do you get the opportunity to play such a character? :smallwink:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 04:32 AM
Not really, the only thing you really gain between levels 1 and 10 are a few 1/day or similar abilities that are duplicated by your powers anyway. The loss of Psion progression levels would normally be bad but look at the Metamind powers.
Now imagine hundreds of metaminds linked into one incredible Metaconcert with hundreds of super charged psi-crystals containing tens of thousands of PP for the Metaconcert group mind to draw from.
Pool all of that starting gold and just make one huge fortress, get a bunch of Psionically constructs to keep the psions all alive while they maintain the Metaconcert indefinately (in effect).

You dont need to worry about progression when you can fire a psionic dart that could destroy gods in a single hit. lol.

You can't augment beyond your Manifester level.

Gaiyamato
2010-02-26, 04:52 AM
Which is 15 at level 20 anyway... :P

Besides he can use this:


Font of Power (Ps)

A 10th-level metamind can act as a living cognizance crystal, producing seemingly endless power points once per day, for up to 1 minute. His eyes shine like tiny stars, and faint illumination seems to beam out of his mouth and the end of each of his fingers. While so empowered, he can manifest any of his powers without drawing from his power point reserve. He finds the power points he needs welling up within his own body.

If a metamind using this ability enters a metaconcert, his power point reserve is accessed normally for the purpose of his contributing to the pool.

To get a free infinite Metaconcert.
Think about it in terms of there being hundreds of copies of this character.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 05:03 AM
Which is 15 at level 20 anyway... :P

No, actually it's 14.

The problem with Metamind is that it gives you all those nice power points and then takes away your ability to spend them.

Also, if the players are that obnoxious, hand them Pun-Pun as your ECL 6 character, then ask them again to play at level 11. :smallwink:

EDIT: and Font of Power explicitly says it doesn't help in a Metaconcert. You quoted the bit in which it said that, in fact.

Gaiyamato
2010-02-26, 05:08 AM
No, actually it's 14.

The problem with Metamind is that it gives you all those nice power points and then takes away your ability to spend them.

Also, if the players are that obnoxious, hand them Pun-Pun as your ECL 6 character, then ask them again to play at level 11. :smallwink:

True.. but they know pun pun.

And yes you are right it is 14. Which is still plenty. I intend on only using a bunch of level 1 powers for the most part. Metaconcert is the only complex thing there.
The hundreds of psicrystals and psionic constructs are the real power.
If I want I can also make a bunch of psionic items, stones, crowns etc. to enhance it all.

Just a pity that I cannot use my psi-crystal as an Item Familiar. Though having an item familiar on top of it(for each and every psion) would be amusing.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 05:14 AM
True.. but they know pun pun.

And yes you are right it is 14. Which is still plenty. I intend on only using a bunch of level 1 powers for the most part. Metaconcert is the only complex thing there.
The hundreds of psicrystals and psionic constructs are the real power.
If I want I can also make a bunch of psionic items, stones, crowns etc. to enhance it all.

Just a pity that I cannot use my psi-crystal as an Item Familiar. Though having an item familiar on top of it(for each and every psion) would be amusing.

If you only intend on using a bunch of level 1 powers and don't intend to augment, you will be severely suboptimal.

Seriously, Metamind is listed as a "down two" PrC in the Tier list. It's baaaad, mmkay?

Gaiyamato
2010-02-26, 05:18 AM
If you only intend on using a bunch of level 1 powers and don't intend to augment, you will be severely suboptimal.

Seriously, Metamind is listed as a "down two" PrC in the Tier list. It's baaaad, mmkay?

Like I said, normally I'd agree with you.

But I realised the serious stupidity of inifite psions being able to manifest a power for free all at the same time then join into a giant mind and be super stupid just for ****s and giggles.
I don't need quality, I've got quantity. In fact my quantity has quantity that can make more quantity.

All this aside though. Any comments on the Orc?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 05:24 AM
You still can't use Font of Power with Metaconcert. The text you quoted makes that abundantly clear.

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 05:26 AM
1 problem with metaconcert is that you've to stuff everyone close together (20 feet radius I think). Gotta be very stuffy when you try to get your 'infinite' thralls into that space.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 05:31 AM
1 problem with metaconcert is that you've to stuff everyone close together (20 feet radius I think). Gotta be very stuffy when you try to get your 'infinite' thralls into that space.

Another is that you can only use it with 10 people. :smallwink:

Gaiyamato
2010-02-26, 05:34 AM
I make infinite groups of meta minds. I'm not the only one casting it. lol.
Also I cannot find anything saying that the meta-mind from the metaconcert cannot also cast metaconcert. I also have vertical positions as well as horizontal. Maybe a dip into Elocater?

Font of power can be used to trigger metaconcert.
It only says that while in a meta concert you dont have inifite power. Which makes sense. So you draw from your power reserve as normal.

wait.. whats the smallest ECL +0 Race?

faceroll
2010-02-26, 05:59 AM
wait.. whats the smallest ECL +0 Race?

Kobold from 3.5, Hengeyoki in sparrow form from 3.0.

Ice&Fire
2010-02-26, 07:32 PM
Thanks for all the advice and opinions.
Would it be worth trying to fit 4 levels of Spellguard of Silverymoon into a build also containing Sublime Chord & War Weaver?