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Myou
2010-02-24, 05:40 PM
As I understand it, the Rainbow Servant is only really broken when casters that automatically know every spell on thier spell list can use it.

If that's right then would the class still be overpowered with the full progression in the text as opposed to the partial progression on the table? Assuming that most high-power PrCs are allowed.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 05:46 PM
As I understand it, the Rainbow Servant is only really broken when casters that automatically know every spell on thier spell list can use it.

If that's right then would the class still be overpowered with the full progression in the text as opposed to the partial progression on the table? Assuming that most high-power PrCs are allowed.

I think you meant that the other way around. Are you saying "RS is overpowered on certain classes with 10/10 casting, would it still be overpowered with 6/10 casting?"

Because the way you wrote it is a no-brainer - of course 10/10 casting is more powerful than 6/10.

hamishspence
2010-02-24, 05:49 PM
I though it was "If you are not playing a class that knows all the spells on its list, is 10/10 casting for it, still overpowered?"


Since it said "Really broken" for 10/10 casting + cleric-type, then asked the question

"is 10/10 casting still overpowered"

Douglas
2010-02-24, 05:52 PM
As I understand it, the Rainbow Servant is only really broken when casters that automatically know every spell on thier spell list can use it.
Correction: It is only really broken when casters that automatically know every spell on their spell list and cast spontaneously use it.


If that's right then would the class still be overpowered with the full progression in the text as opposed to the partial progression on the table? Assuming that most high-power PrCs are allowed.
For prepared casters or casters that do not automatically know their entire class list, I do not think full casting Rainbow Servant would be very overpowered.

Myou
2010-02-24, 05:53 PM
Er, what I mean is, if those classes that learn all spells on their spell lists automatically and cast spontaniously (good point, Douglas) can't take it, would it be ok as a 10/10 class like in the text, or would that be horribly broken too, even if dread necromancers and the like couldn't take it?

The_Snark
2010-02-24, 06:07 PM
Er, what I mean is, if those classes that learn all spells on their spell lists automatically and cast spontaniously (good point, Douglas) can't take it, would it be ok as a 10/10 class like in the text, or would that be horribly broken too, even if dread necromancers and the like couldn't take it?

It would be good, because being able to cherry-pick the best spells from a giant new list is always going to be good. I wouldn't consider it balanced, because it's easy to get into and you lose nothing (save for a couple bonus feats if you're a wizard, I guess), but it's no Incantatrix. In a relatively high-powered game it'd work fine, I think.

erikun
2010-02-24, 06:16 PM
10/10 Rainbow Servant would still be quite powerful. You don't just gain access to the cleric's spell list - you also gain three domains, complete with their relevant abilities. That's a lot better than the base Wizard, although perhaps not much better than other prestige classes.

I've heard most people recommending 8/10 spellcasting. It still retains good spell progression (including 9th level spells, eventually) while still taking something away for the versatility of cleric spell access + domain abilities.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-24, 06:19 PM
Something like a Wizard? 6/10. Because he can get Cleric scrolls easy, he can take avantage of all that plus Batman Wizard style.

Sorcerer? 10/10. Because he needs to blow Spells Known to get Cleric spells. That means about the only thing it gives them is the ability to use use-activated items.

Myou
2010-02-24, 06:38 PM
So there are some fairly conflicting opinions on this it seems. I don't want to houserule its progression to 8/10 or something like that if I can avoid it, I don't mind it being a very good class, I just don't want it to be like the incantatrix, the default PrC for certain classes.

ShneekeyTheLost, I don't follow you when you say that wizards learning all the divine spells they like is that bad - they'd have to pay for every single scroll, so I don't really see how that's too powerful. It's not like letting clerics get arcane spells.

erikun
2010-02-24, 06:43 PM
A 6/10 progression would be terrible for any spellcaster. That would be two spell levels behind where you are at - the Mystic Theurge is better than that!

No, the 10/10 progression is not terribly overpowering. You won't be reaching levels like the Incantrix or Sevenfold Veil. The character will be very versatile though, especially if they can get their hands on a pile of divine scrolls. The full progression Wizard/Rainbow Servant would be about the same as an Archivist in what they can accomplish (which is still quite impressive).

Myou
2010-02-24, 06:45 PM
A 6/10 progression would be terrible for any spellcaster. That would be two spell levels behind where you are at - the Mystic Theurge is better than that!

No, the 10/10 progression is not terribly overpowering. You won't be reaching levels like the Incantrix or Sevenfold Veil. The character will be very versatile though, especially if they can get their hands on a pile of divine scrolls. The full progression Wizard/Rainbow Servant would be about the same as an Archivist in what they can accomplish (which is still quite impressive).

Sounds pretty good to me. :smallsmile:

Thanks for the advice everyone. ^^

DragoonWraith
2010-02-24, 07:12 PM
Yeah, really, if you're not auto-learning those spells, it's really not that big a deal. The Cleric list is worse than the Sor/Wiz list anyway, there are only a select few that are really desirable to a Wizard or Sorcerer.Yeah, it's better than base Wizard, but that's really a problem with the Wizard and not the Rainbow Servant. It's relatively good PrC but nothing like the really broken ones.

If you really wanted, add a crappy feat pre-req or two to it. That's a far more reasonable cost than spellcasting progression in this case.

Even for those who auto-learn their entire list, it's probably not worth it at 6/10. 8/10 seems reasonable for those classes, perhaps, though really those classes are already behind the core classes so in a game with them it's probably not that unreasonable to only be 9/10. It's probably much too good for 10/10, though, it just becomes too obvious to take.

The_Snark
2010-02-24, 07:19 PM
Even for those who auto-learn their entire list, it's probably not worth it at 6/10. 8/10 seems reasonable for those classes, perhaps, though really those classes are already behind the core classes so in a game with them it's probably not that unreasonable to only be 9/10. It's probably much too good for 10/10, though, it just becomes too obvious to take.

It's actually worth it once you get the capstone, I feel—you're four levels behind, but you're an incredible utility caster. I played one, and I felt it was worth the tradeoff... but only because we started at high levels. Levels 7-15 would not be fun.