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View Full Version : Can Lolth morph out of her spider form?



Mystic Muse
2010-02-24, 06:26 PM
I'm hoping the question is rather clear. Can lolth morph into a normal drow instead of her drider form or is it not an option?

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-24, 06:27 PM
I'm hoping the question is rather clear. Can lolth morph into a normal drow instead of her drider form or is it not an option?

She often appears as both, across editions, depictions and so on.
Beyond that, I couldn't say, however.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 06:34 PM
Yes, she has Alter form as a Salient divine ability.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-24, 06:37 PM
okay. Just making sure.

Myou
2010-02-24, 06:40 PM
Ahhh, lolth, even her name is silly. :smallbiggrin:

As a deity lolth can do whatever she wants, she's a walking scuttling plot device.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 06:40 PM
Ahhh, lolth, even her name is silly. :smallbiggrin:

As a deity lolth can do whatever she wants, she's a walking scuttling plot device.

Deities and Demigods disagrees with you.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-24, 06:42 PM
Ahhh, lolth, even her name is silly. :smallbiggrin:

As a deity lolth can do whatever she wants, she's a walking scuttling plot device.

This is actually for a web comic of mine. not a D&D game. Because of this I want to make her at least a little bit consistent with the setting fluff.

However I don't have a ton of books I can read through so I usually have to ask people who know the settings better.:smallannoyed:

Myou
2010-02-24, 06:42 PM
Deities and Demigods disagrees with you.

Deities and Demigods is toilet paper. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse
2010-02-24, 06:45 PM
Deities and Demigods is toilet paper. :smalltongue:

*looks at deities and demigods*
*looks at toilet paper*

No, I'm pretty sure deities and demigods is a D&D manual.:smallwink:

Myou
2010-02-24, 06:47 PM
*looks at deities and demigods*
*looks at toilet paper*

No, I'm pretty sure deities and demigods is a D&D manual.:smallwink:

It's just in disguise.
It certainly works better as toilet paper than as a manual for describing divine beings mechanically in D&D. :smallwink:

AbyssKnight
2010-02-24, 06:49 PM
Well, if you prefer a different source, Lolth is often depicted as looking like a normal drow in various novels as well.

The intro into.....Siege of Darkness, I believe.....makes a point of demons in the Abyss approaching her thinking she is easy prey, until they realize she is much more than just a dark elf girl.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-24, 06:51 PM
Yes, she has Alter form as a Salient divine ability.

Alter Form won't help. That only helps if she was humaniod. She needs polymorph.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-24, 06:56 PM
Alter Form won't help. That only helps if she was humaniod. She needs polymorph.

You're thinking of Alter Self. That would be true.

She has Alter Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm), he said. It specifically mentions even the adding or removing of a couple of limbs, even.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-24, 07:00 PM
It's actually the Shift Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#shiftForm) divine ability which allows her to do this.

EDIT: Alter Form isn't powerful enough to change her into a completely different form, but it's a requirement for Shift Form.

Shinizak
2010-02-24, 07:12 PM
Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic (http://yafgc.shipsinker.com) Has a lot of Drow and some Lolth in it.

Geddoe
2010-02-24, 08:34 PM
Deities and Demigods version has Alter Reality, so her morphing into anything should be pretty easy.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-24, 08:47 PM
The questions that prompted this, I'm guessing, are "Why would Corellon curse Lolth to be a hideous spider-thing if she can just look however she wants anyway? For that matter, how could he so curse her if she retained that ability? Aren't being cursed with a form and being able to choose your form mutually exclusive?"

I think that Lolth may have been temporarily downgraded to unique demon status after her rebellion against the Seldarine before working her way back up to goddess. In which case, she was cursed, but she got better.

Needless to say, she carries a grudge about this.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-24, 10:02 PM
So would she ever willingly spend time as a half spider?

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 10:10 PM
So would she ever willingly spend time as a half spider?

It's her natural form. That's got to grate, particularly if you're vain (and used to be considered beautiful).

Sure, you can hide it, but you still know it's there. And so do the other Gods.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-24, 10:30 PM
out of curiosity how old would Bahamut and Tiamat have been when Lolth was cursed? Would they even be alive yet?

Altima
2010-02-25, 05:39 AM
The questions that prompted this, I'm guessing, are "Why would Corellon curse Lolth to be a hideous spider-thing if she can just look however she wants anyway? For that matter, how could he so curse her if she retained that ability? Aren't being cursed with a form and being able to choose your form mutually exclusive?"

I think that Lolth may have been temporarily downgraded to unique demon status after her rebellion against the Seldarine before working her way back up to goddess. In which case, she was cursed, but she got better.

Needless to say, she carries a grudge about this.

This is true--Lolth was originally (1st Edition originally) merely an overpowered demon after her failed attempt of splattyness on the rest of the Seldarine.

Then she gained a spark of divinity and all bets were lost.

Many deities in the Forgotten Realms have different forms they take, especially the more powerful ones. It just so happens one of Lolth's is a drow-headed spider or a giant spider.

A for why she'd keep it? Well, probably because every other intelligent race is smart enough to be arachnophobic. Those eight-legged abominations should never have existed in creation!

hamishspence
2010-02-25, 05:43 AM
Quite a lot of 3.0-3.5 artwork, tend to go with super-drider, rather than drow-headed spider.

The one in Complete Divine appears to have eight arms, as well as eight legs.

Altima
2010-02-25, 05:52 AM
Quite a lot of 3.0-3.5 artwork, tend to go with super-drider, rather than drow-headed spider.

The one in Complete Divine appears to have eight arms, as well as eight legs.

Because a female-headed spiders is rather...well, not aesthetically pleasing. I do prefer the super drider, Andariel look-alike, or what have you over the drow-headed spiders, but that is how she is said to have as her form.

lord_khaine
2010-02-25, 06:16 AM
out of curiosity how old would Bahamut and Tiamat have been when Lolth was cursed? Would they even be alive yet?

Well, if you considder the race of dragons to be older then the answer would be quite old by mortal standard.

blueblade
2010-02-25, 06:23 AM
Have to say, thanks for the merry trip through the divine abilities. All suitably ridiculous, particularly:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor

Which by RAW, cannot be switched off! It ain't easy being God after all...

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-25, 06:27 AM
IIRC, in Faith and Pantheons (Forgotten Realms) is depicted at least once as a female (and quite hot) Drow.

Grumman
2010-02-25, 06:50 AM
a female (and quite hot) Drow
Isn't that redundant? :smalltongue:

Myou
2010-02-25, 07:43 AM
Isn't that redundant? :smalltongue:

More like an oxymoron. :smalltongue:

Zeta Kai
2010-02-25, 08:10 AM
Am I the only one that thinks it's silly for a stat-block to be the be-all & end-all of a god's powers? I think it's very strange to say "But Lolth doesn't have a polymorph spell in her salient ability list, so she's stuch in spider form forever, LOL." I know it's RAW, but I think the point has been made that RAW sucks.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-25, 08:49 AM
Do drow commonly know that Lolth is a 'super-drider'? Seems odd that Driderism's considered a curse, though it's a step closer to Lolth (despite being a punishment for failure... I don't think kobolds would revile their failed clerics if they were cursed and turned into dragons). Or do they have a 'don't ask - don't tell' policy regarding Lolth's Drider form?

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-25, 09:06 AM
Am I the only one that thinks it's silly for a stat-block to be the be-all & end-all of a god's powers? I think it's very strange to say "But Lolth doesn't have a polymorph spell in her salient ability list, so she's stuch in spider form forever, LOL." I know it's RAW, but I think the point has been made that RAW sucks.

Well, speaking for experience (as a DM, I've not Divine Ranks :smalltongue:) Alter Reality is generally enough for everything...

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-25, 09:44 AM
Do drow commonly know that Lolth is a 'super-drider'? Seems odd that Driderism's considered a curse, though it's a step closer to Lolth (despite being a punishment for failure... I don't think kobolds would revile their failed clerics if they were cursed and turned into dragons). Or do they have a 'don't ask - don't tell' policy regarding Lolth's Drider form?

Corellon cursed Lolth with that form, so it's basically her taking it out on them in turn. She hates that form so she uses it as a punishment. Seems sensible enough.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-25, 09:52 AM
Do drow commonly know that Lolth is a 'super-drider'? Seems odd that Driderism's considered a curse, though it's a step closer to Lolth (despite being a punishment for failure... I don't think kobolds would revile their failed clerics if they were cursed and turned into dragons). Or do they have a 'don't ask - don't tell' policy regarding Lolth's Drider form?

Well, it's an interesting (and almost certainly unintentionally weird) situation.
I personally have some non-raw takes on the general drow/lolth situation, but this I feel is an easy one.

Lolth, and perhaps the Drow themselves, are frankly ambivalent on the issue themselves. Lolth's iconic creature has always been a spider, and as it's Lolth's form, it cannot help but be something to be held up, venerated (and feared, etc). But it was also forced upon her by Correllon (and for very petty reasons, amusingly.)

The fact that it was inflicted upon her by Correllon, reguardless of anything else, makes it something of a sore spot, reguardless of anything else. To be cursed with the form of a Drider is a bad thing on most levels, even though it does essentially bring you closer to your God, mostly because of the connotations, though perhaps? It is, after all, Lolths form, but not a Form of HER choosing.

hamishspence
2010-02-25, 10:12 AM
In Evermeet, by Elaine Cunningham, which outlines how Araushnee/Lolth fell, the reasons Corellon casts her out aren't exactly petty- she tried to kill him, and she organized an enormous army of evil deities to attack Arvandor.

His words "For all these deeds, I name you tanar'ri. Be what you are, and go where you must."

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-25, 10:13 AM
In Evermeet, by Elaine Cunningham, which outlines how Araushnee/Lolth fell, the reasons Corellon casts her out aren't exactly petty- she tried to kill him, and she organized an enormous army of evil deities to attack Arvandor.

His words "For all these deeds, I name you tanar'ri. Be what you are, and go where you must."

but the reason he transforms her first, is that so she won't be pretty. So that he won't feel sorry for her and change his mind.

hamishspence
2010-02-25, 10:17 AM
I don't recall the novel saying that. I think it was a case of- anything transformed into a fiend, is going to take on a new fiendish appearence.

Maybe it was in some other source?

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-25, 10:21 AM
I don't recall the novel saying that. I think it was a case of- anything transformed into a fiend, is going to take on a new fiendish appearence.

Maybe it was in some other source?

Yeah, I've no idea about any novels, it's just what I scratched up when looking into Lolth.
I've no idea how widespread it is, but it's in the Forgotten Realms Wiki.


Araushnee's banishment also involved Corellon turning her into a bloated spider demon so that he could not be persuaded to reconsider his decision due to her beauty. (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lolth#History)

I kind of like that element, personally. It's just petty and dim enough to really feel like an Elfy, Correllony action to me. :smallcool:

hamishspence
2010-02-25, 10:26 AM
This was the novel:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Evermeet:_Island_of_Elves

I'm not sure where the "transformed her so he wouldn't change his mind" came from though.

The Leraje story in the Tome of Magic rulebook does make him come across as somewhat petty.

ken-do-nim
2010-02-25, 11:31 AM
Deities and Demigods is toilet paper. :smalltongue:

Considering the brilliance of the 1E Deities and Demigods, my 3E acquisition of Deities and Demigods remains the worst gaming manual I have ever purchased. I sold it right away.

In 1E, Lolth has 2 forms: dark elf female and giant spider with dark elf head. She has pros and cons with each form. She can only cast spells as a dark elf female, but she has powerful protections in giant spider mode including a better armor class and immunity to psionic attack.

Grumman
2010-02-25, 11:40 AM
More like an oxymoron. :smalltongue:
I'll pretend I didn't hear that.

hamishspence
2010-02-25, 11:43 AM
Have to say, thanks for the merry trip through the divine abilities. All suitably ridiculous, particularly:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineSplendor

Which by RAW, cannot be switched off! It ain't easy being God after all...

I think that's a nod to Zeus- one of his lovers asked to see him in his real form, and when he took his real form, she promptly died.

Sydonai
2010-03-22, 06:07 PM
In "The Lady Penitent" Lolth has eight different forms varying between spider, Drow, and hybrid. Before the "War of the Spider Queen" series she only had two forms; Drow and Drow-headed spider.

I could say why, but I don't know how to use spoilers.

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 06:18 PM
In "The Lady Penitent" Lolth has eight different forms varying between spider, Drow, and hybrid. Before the "War of the Spider Queen" series she only had two forms; Drow and Drow-headed spider.

I could say why, but I don't know how to use spoilers.

For Spoiler-boxes, type:
Spoiledstuffhere

It'll look like:
Spoiledstuffhere

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-22, 08:31 PM
Deities and Demigods disagrees with you.

you can't spell Lolth without "lol"

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-22, 09:33 PM
you can't spell Lolth without "lol"

I dunno, I've seen a lot of people who spell it "Lloth." Is that an alternative spelling, an archaic one, or are they just bad spellers?

sambo.
2010-03-22, 09:44 PM
lolth is a goddess. she can appear as whatever she wants to appear as.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-22, 09:45 PM
I think Lloth was some kind of typo that Salvatore ran with, or something. Unsure. It's basically a canon variation at this point, though.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-22, 09:47 PM
This was the novel:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Evermeet:_Island_of_Elves

I'm not sure where the "transformed her so he wouldn't change his mind" came from though.

The Leraje story in the Tome of Magic rulebook does make him come across as somewhat petty.

Deities and Demigods, I believe. Which was published in 2002 and thus would be the latest story as far as 3.x is concerned. However: Corellon also banished one of Lolth's daughter's who had only been tricked into working with her mother against Corellon. So it's not like there isn't a precedent for pettiness in his past.

sambo.
2010-03-22, 10:01 PM
Deities and Demigods, I believe. Which was published in 2002.

not the edition I have.... that was published in, err, i dunno exactly. early 80's.....

mine has the stats for Stormbringer :smallbiggrin:

on that note, i'll dig out my 1ed Legends and Lore and see what it has to say on the subject of Lolth.

on a side note, my drow ranger/wizard has a spider familiar which i named Lilolth.:smallcool:

Optimystik
2010-03-22, 10:22 PM
It's her natural form. That's got to grate, particularly if you're vain (and used to be considered beautiful).

Sure, you can hide it, but you still know it's there. And so do the other Gods.

I see it a different way. She could return to her beautiful drow form anytime she wanted (Alter Reality.) She chooses to remain part spider because they epitomize her state of mind - insidious, ruthless, patient. She also, having been cast out as an elf, wants as little to do with them as possible.


I think Lloth was some kind of typo that Salvatore ran with, or something. Unsure. It's basically a canon variation at this point, though.

It's the one I always use. "Lolth" just looks weird to me and doesn't roll off the tongue either.


The Leraje story in the Tome of Magic rulebook does make him come across as somewhat petty.

The vestige stories should all be taken with a rather large grain of salt, imo. They themselves barely remember what caused them to be what they are, and several are flat out impossible exceedingly improbable.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-22, 10:28 PM
Deities and Demigods, I believe. Which was published in 2002 and thus would be the latest story as far as 3.x is concerned. However: Corellon also banished one of Lolth's daughter's who had only been tricked into working with her mother against Corellon. So it's not like there isn't a precedent for pettiness in his past.

He only banished his daughter Eilistraee because she asked him to. He knew Lolth had redirected the arrow however Eilistraee wanted to be banished with the rest so she could help guide the Drow back to the light.

Now I would say that Lolth could appear to mortals as whatever the hell she wants. But a deity or someone with true seeing would have no choice but to view her natural spider form, she can change her from but she can't change her natural form.

Corellon cursed Lolth to that form so she could never convince him to forgive her. If she could still appear beautiful to him she might have weaseled her way back in.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-22, 10:43 PM
Do drow commonly know that Lolth is a 'super-drider'? Seems odd that Driderism's considered a curse, though it's a step closer to Lolth (despite being a punishment for failure... I don't think kobolds would revile their failed clerics if they were cursed and turned into dragons). Or do they have a 'don't ask - don't tell' policy regarding Lolth's Drider form?

4E fluff fixed this, incidentally - driders are now revered by drow culture, I believe.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-22, 10:45 PM
4E fluff fixed this, incidentally - driders are now revered by drow culture, I believe.

And on Eberon they are an independent race.

Draxar
2010-03-23, 06:37 AM
I dunno, I've seen a lot of people who spell it "Lloth." Is that an alternative spelling, an archaic one, or are they just bad spellers?

IIRC that's how it's spelt in the Drizzt books.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 07:36 AM
IIRC that's how it's spelt in the Drizzt books.

The early ones, I think. I think the newer ones use the correct spelling. Though for what it's worth, to my ear "Lloth" sounds much better due to the balance of the word, and the emphasis the last sound has. It's just...much more evocative of an "alien" (in name) deity than "Lolth".

DragoonWraith
2010-03-23, 09:07 AM
In 1E, Lolth has 2 forms: dark elf female and giant spider with dark elf head. She has pros and cons with each form. She can only cast spells as a dark elf female, but she has powerful protections in giant spider mode including a better armor class and immunity to psionic attack.
Didn't she also have like 66 HP?

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-23, 01:50 PM
The early ones, I think. I think the newer ones use the correct spelling. Though for what it's worth, to my ear "Lloth" sounds much better due to the balance of the word, and the emphasis the last sound has. It's just...much more evocative of an "alien" (in name) deity than "Lolth".

I actually pronounce Lolth with a silent L, so it comes out the same pronunciation-wise. I can't even imagine trying to vocalize that second L. It would sound ridiculous.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 01:57 PM
I actually pronounce Lolth with a silent L, so it comes out the same pronunciation-wise. I can't even imagine trying to vocalize that second L. It would sound ridiculous.

It's just a long L as far as I'm concerned; feels pretty intuitive. Basically, move the stress on the "l" instead of the "o" and just say a long "l" followed by spitting out the "oth".

Taelas
2010-03-23, 01:57 PM
Trying to vocalize the second "L" in "Lolth" is preposterous. "Lloth" makes much more sense.

Closak
2010-03-23, 02:02 PM
I just found something interesting in the divine abilites list.



Possess Mortal
Prerequisites
Cha 29.

Benefit
The deity can possess any mortal in any location the deity can sense. Unwilling mortals can attempt Will saves (DC 10 + the deityís Charisma modifier + the deityís rank).

Notes
Spells that prevent possession block this ability if the mortal is unwilling. Likewise, spells that end possession drive out the deity if the mortal is unwilling. If the mortal is willing, however, the deity cannot be blocked or driven out, except by a divine shield or the use of the Alter Reality salient divine ability by a deity of higher rank.

The possessed mortal effectively becomes an avatar of the deity. The deity can draw on all the possessed mortalís memories, and the deity senses what the mortal senses. Each mortal possessed counts as a remote location where the deity is sensing and communicating. A demigod can possess up to two mortals at a time, a lesser deity can possess up to five mortals at once, an intermediate deity can possess up to ten, and a greater deity can possess up to twenty mortals at once.

All we need to do is add one little thing.

Just add in the restriction that the mortal need to have some sort of special condition with their body and/or mind and we get something very similiar to what happens near the end of a certain movie :smalleek:

I just say this.
I KNEW IT!

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-23, 02:03 PM
It's just a long L as far as I'm concerned; feels pretty intuitive. Basically, move the stress on the "l" instead of the "o" and just say a long "l" followed by spitting out the "oth".

I was referring to pronouncing the second L in "Lolth," not "Lloth."


Trying to vocalize the second "L" in "Lolth" is preposterous. "Lloth" makes much more sense.

Yes, exactly. But I still spell it "Lolth," despite pronouncing it that way.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 02:12 PM
Yes, exactly. But I still spell it "Lolth," despite pronouncing it that way.

Psh, you can pronounce Lolth just as well. Sure, it's not an English pronunciation, but IPA Lolth works just fine...or Finnish Lolth :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-03-23, 02:20 PM
I just found something interesting in the divine abilites list.




All we need to do is add one little thing.

Just add in the restriction that the mortal need to have some sort of special condition with their body and/or mind and we get something very similiar to what happens near the end of a certain movie :smalleek:

I just say this.
I KNEW IT!

what movie is this?

Closak
2010-03-23, 02:25 PM
I put it this way.

Movie: Advent Children
Condition needed: Mortal needs to have Jenova cells in his/her body
Mortal: Kadaj
Deity doing the possessing: Sephiroth
End result: one dead Kadaj, courtesy of Cloud Omnislashing him.
Other end result: Door into world of the living slammed shut in Sephiroth's face as a result of Kadaj's death.
Winner: The good guys.


Great, so Sephiroth has a Divine Ability, what does this say i wonder? :smalleek:

The charisma requirement explains the hordes of crazed fangirls...

Dervag
2010-03-23, 07:04 PM
The fact that it was inflicted upon her by Correllon, reguardless of anything else, makes it something of a sore spot, reguardless of anything else. To be cursed with the form of a Drider is a bad thing on most levels, even though it does essentially bring you closer to your God, mostly because of the connotations, though perhaps? It is, after all, Lolths form, but not a Form of HER choosing.Also, evil beings don't necessarily want to be closer to their god, if their god occupies an unenviable state.

If you're the evil cultist who wants to free your deity who's been imprisoned in a giant block of Distilled Essence of Pain, you probably don't want to get thrown into a bunch of the stuff yourself.


I kind of like that element, personally. It's just petty and dim enough to really feel like an Elfy, Correllony action to me. :smallcool:Yeah. Although it's kind of sensible when we're talking about supernatural goddess-level beauty: that kind of thing can have an effect on even a basically well-adjusted god. In a very real sense, Lolth (whatever her name was then) could and did use beauty as a weapon, one that it would be hard to fight her without somehow neutralizing.

Zaq
2010-03-23, 08:03 PM
I actually pronounce Lolth with a silent L, so it comes out the same pronunciation-wise. I can't even imagine trying to vocalize that second L. It would sound ridiculous.

That's why I always go out of my way to pronounce it. A character as silly as Lolth (or her full and proper name, Roflolth) deserves a name to match.

I suppose it goes without saying that I hate elf-related fluff almost as bad as I hate dragon-related fluff in 3.5, and drow-fluff is the worst of the elf-fluff. Roflolth indeed.