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View Full Version : Mordon/Inevitable/Formian equivalent of Pit fiends, Auromarch, Solars, and Balors?



Volkov
2010-02-24, 06:30 PM
I understand that in the heirarchy of the outsiders, Ultraloths, Pit Fiends, Balors, Solars, Auromarchs, and Black Slaads all hold very similar positions in their respective groups. But what is Mechanus's equivalent of these?

Heliomance
2010-02-24, 07:03 PM
Primus. Head of the Modrons.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-24, 07:11 PM
Isn't Primus more akin to the Lords of Hell, Demon Princes, and whoever's in charge of the celestial planes? He's certainly way better than any mere Pit Fiend.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-24, 07:13 PM
Yeah, he's a "unique", a "named boss", not the same as a Solar or Balor.

Heliomance
2010-02-24, 07:14 PM
Eh, there's several ranks of elite modrons. It's been a while since I read the fluff on the, though. Aren't there seven ranks, including Primus, before you get to the mook types?

Beleriphon
2010-02-24, 07:16 PM
Decadrones are the highest level of modron heirarchy.

erikun
2010-02-24, 07:22 PM
Remember that, unlike Hades or the Abyss, Mechanus doesn't have everyone following one line of power. Mordons, Inevitables, and Formians will all be doing their own think and frequently not interfering with each other.

I believe there are some rather tough Inevitables running around. I always considered the Marut to be the general "high-power" lawful outsiders. Decadrones will also be quite strong, although I'm not sure what their CR is in 3rd edition.

Samb
2010-02-24, 07:30 PM
Inevitables have the Varakhut and the Quarut both found in fiend folio.

The Varakhut is CR 19, and is one of the main reasons no one becomes/kills a god. The is their sole task in life and they are no joke.
DR 50/+5
SR 20
fast healing: 20
construct immunities
caster level: 19
At will SLA: Dimensional door, circle of doom/death, haste, hold monster, dominate monster
3/day SLA: limited wish, time stop, dispelling blast (greater dispel but with a 30 feet radius)

The Quaruts are a funny bunch, they are WotC's answer to why don't all wizards abuse the hell out of limited wish, wish, time stop, temporal statis. Basically, anything that disrupts the time-space continuum, of course they use said spells as SLAs against people. Next time my PCs use temporal acceleration I'll drop this bad boy on them.
CR 17
3/day SLA: temporal stasis

Runestar
2010-02-24, 07:34 PM
Fiend folio has 2 more inevitables at cr17 and 19, charged with prosecuting those who meddle with time and attempt to usurp gods.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 07:39 PM
I know of the inevitables, but do the Formians have their own counterpart? And what was the hit dice of the decadrones and their CR or whatever it was back in the day.

Eldan
2010-02-24, 07:39 PM
For Modrons?

Well, you have Primus, but he is their god and leader, so more the equivalent of Asmodeus or the queen of stars.

The Secundi are leaders, commanders and administrators, but not epic like the nobility of hell or celestia. So that's probably the level you want to be looking at. Maybe Tertians or quartons. They have different CRs based on publication.

Though really, after Primus, the hierarchy is a lot steeper, and there's a huge gap in power.

Still.

Table of functions, nicked from Wiki because Planewalker is currently slow as hell for me:

Decaton Base modron welfare
Nonaton Law enforcement supervision
Octon Sector governors
Septon Inspection
Hexton Generals
Quinton Bureau chiefs, record keeping
Quarton Region governors
Tertian Judges
Secundus Quarter governors
Primus Supreme ruler of all modrons


Back in Planescape, there were also the mediators, gigantic crystalline beings able to cast wishes, so you might also want to look at these.

By the way, you forgot the top archons (Throne, in this case, as the Tomes are unique since 3.5) and the Tulani for the eladrin in your list of top tiers. Oh, and the Leonals.

Edit: and the Aurumach. Everyone forgets the Rilmani. Me included.

Samb
2010-02-24, 07:41 PM
Fiend folio has 2 more inevitables at cr17 and 19, charged with prosecuting those who meddle with time and attempt to usurp gods.

I already posted them, but the most interesting thing about them is that they are they answer a lot of questions on these boards about why wizards don't take over the multiverse, or why everyone isn't using spells/powers to have infinite turns. Throw a few of these guys at your "godly" wizards and find out.

Granted they are not optimized in terms of feats, but they are just high end machines in the end, and who's to say the "hivemind" of mechanus wouldn't change that skill focus into a improved SLA or even improved init (to put you into stasis fast)?

Volkov
2010-02-24, 07:48 PM
I already posted them, but the most interesting thing about them is that they are they answer a lot of questions on these boards about why wizards don't take over the multiverse, or why everyone isn't using spells/powers to have infinite turns. Throw a few of these guys at your "godly" wizards and find out.

Granted they are not optimized in terms of feats, but they are just high end machines in the end, and who's to say the "hivemind" of mechanus wouldn't change that skill focus into a improved SLA or even improved init (to put you into stasis fast)?

Or simply throw an advanced one with a larger and better SLA list. A max hit dice quarut that can cast wish, gate, miracle, and time stop three times a day and cast limited wish, temporal stasis, haste, slow, destruction, and true domination at will is something to be very, very scared of.

Eldan
2010-02-24, 07:50 PM
Oh, and as far as I know, there was never anything about a formian above the level of a hive queen.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 07:53 PM
Oh, and as far as I know, there was never anything about a formian above the level of a hive queen.

There is their supreme queen, who I think had the term Scion in it's title and was a rank 15 god with maximum formian queen hit dice and similarly increased innate cast spells as a sorcerer levels. But like Primus, she is more akin to Asmodeus, even though either Primus or the Scion would easily defeat him, seeing as they are both gods with the upperhand in hit dice, divine ranks (Asmodeus doesn't have any and no I do not consider 4th edition fluff, and nor will I ever), and so on.

Samb
2010-02-24, 08:02 PM
Or simply throw an advanced one with a larger and better SLA list. A max hit dice quarut that can cast wish, gate, miracle, and time stop three times a day and cast limited wish, temporal stasis, haste, slow, destruction, and true domination at will is something to be very, very scared of.

Well either of them "nova"ing limited wish in one encounter is pretty bad enough.

Just a nit-pick, you missed tome archons as the top ranked archons. I think throne archons might be closer to gods/unique archons.

Noble Savant
2010-02-24, 08:03 PM
There is their supreme queen, who I think had the term Scion in it's title and was a rank 15 god with maximum formian queen hit dice and similarly increased innate cast spells as a sorcerer levels. But like Primus, she is more akin to Asmodeus, even though either Primus or the Scion would easily defeat him, seeing as they are both gods with the upperhand in hit dice, divine ranks (Asmodeus doesn't have any and no I do not consider 4th edition fluff, and nor will I ever), and so on.

Asmodeus is described, before 4th edition, as a being of monumental power. His bleeding creates Pit Fiends. In his own realm, the Ninth, (and the rest of Baator really), he has power comparable to anything a god has. He can make and unmake reality at whim.

Plus, he is the original trickster, the first fallen angel, he broke the first contract and is so much older then Primus or the Scion that it isn't even funny. According to the fluff in any case, they never mechanically created anything more then his avatar. I think he would have the upper hand if he ever lowered himself enough to fight either of them.

Plus, didn't the old Primus die? Not exactly a great track record.

Eldan
2010-02-24, 08:07 PM
Yup... as mentioned above, all of the main categories have their own supreme guys.

Let's go around the wheel and see what I can remember...

Celestia: Thrones
Bytopia: ?
Elysium/Beastlands: Leonal
Arborea: Tulani
Ysgard: ?
Limbo: Black Slaad
Pandemonium: ? The only native fiends I can think of right now are the shadow fiends, and they don't seem to have a hierachy.
Abyss: Balor
Carceri: Top Gehreleth. Can't remember the name at all.
Hades/Gehenna: Ultroloth
Baator: Pit Fiend
Acheron: ?
Mechanus: Secundus or Tertian
Arcadia: Formian Queens

Outlands: Aurumach.

Plus the Solars for all Celestials together.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 08:08 PM
Asmodeus is described, before 4th edition, as a being of monumental power. His bleeding creates Pit Fiends. In his own realm, the Ninth, (and the rest of Baator really), he has power comparable to anything a god has. He can make and unmake reality at whim.

Plus, he is the original trickster, the first fallen angel, he broke the first contract and is so much older then Primus or the Scion that it isn't even funny. According to the fluff in any case, they never mechanically created anything more then his avatar. I think he would have the upper hand if he ever lowered himself enough to fight either of them.

Plus, didn't the old Primus die? Not exactly a great track record.

He only has 35 hit dice as the BoVD tells us, he would lose in a fight against the Scion or Primus. Or heck, more or less any god with more than 2 divine ranks.

Eldan
2010-02-24, 08:08 PM
Plus, didn't the old Primus die? Not exactly a great track record.

Well, yes. But he was slain by Tenebrous/Orcus, and he basically cheated.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 08:10 PM
Well, yes. But he was slain by Tenebrous/Orcus, and he basically cheated.

I agree, I highly doubt that asmodeus could withstand the power of the Last Word, which is essentially the most powerful truenaming utterance, ever. Are you a greater deity? Doesn't matter, it still OHKOs you without fail, heck it's so powerful, unless you yourself are a god, using it will eventually kill you.

The wielder of it during the last word's peak could only be beaten by burning out before he could become a god, protagonist determinism, or some harebrained scheme of Vecna.

Samb
2010-02-24, 08:11 PM
Mordons have basically been replaced with formians and inevitables in 3rd ed. I can't even find them in a MM or even planar HB or even the manual of planes. Dragon magazine made some stats for them but that's it.

Inevitables are a lot cooler than Mordons anyway. Mordons only really worked in Planescape anyway to emphasize how diverse things were.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 08:13 PM
Mordons have basically been replaced with formians and inevitables in 3rd ed. I can't even find them in a MM or even planar HB or even the manual of planes. Dragon magazine made some stats for them but that's it.

Inevitables are a lot cooler than Mordons anyway. Mordons only really worked in Planescape anyway to emphasize how diverse things were.
They are still mentioned in 3e, it's just that after the first Primus died, they faded into the background out of fear and basically never came out of hiding. Allowing the Formians to replace them as the outsider embodiement of mechanus, along with the inevitables, they now replace the Mordon's as Greyhawk's most active embodiments of law.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-24, 08:16 PM
Plus, he is the original trickster, the first fallen angel, he broke the first contract and is so much older then Primus or the Scion that it isn't even funny.

No he didn't. If he did, the LG gods would have taken him out. The whole point of Asmodeus is that he outsmarted the gods by leaving some exploitable loopholes in his contract. Basically, the LG gods can't do anything against him because they all signed the contract and he's just doing his job because he follows it to the letter.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-24, 08:27 PM
No he didn't. If he did, the LG gods would have taken him out. The whole point of Asmodeus is that he outsmarted the gods by leaving some exploitable loopholes in his contract. Basically, the LG gods can't do anything against him because they all signed the contract and he's just doing his job because he follows it to the letter.Keep in mind, that's the story that he keeps telling everyone, anyway. The truth, whatever it is, is likely submerged and obfuscated by a thousand thousand years of active attempts to hide it.

Harperfan7
2010-02-24, 08:52 PM
Arcanoloths are more powerful than Ultraloths.

What is an Auramach?

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-24, 10:53 PM
Keep in mind, that's the story that he keeps telling everyone, anyway. The truth, whatever it is, is likely submerged and obfuscated by a thousand thousand years of active attempts to hide it.

Okay, well as far as anybody knows (which basically means the DM can decide it's something else if he wants to), that IS what happened.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-25, 02:45 AM
He only has 35 hit dice as the BoVD tells us, he would lose in a fight against the Scion or Primus. Or heck, more or less any god with more than 2 divine ranks.

No DM should ever bring any Powers into the equation without immediately tossing out the absolute crap stats in BoVD and D&DG. The only things that prevents a moderately-optimized 10th-level party from wiping both books' selection of Powers are Alter Reality and Hand of Death. Use Dicefreaks' stats or stat them yourself if you want them to accurately reflect the lore.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-25, 03:28 AM
I know of the inevitables, but do the Formians have their own counterpart? And what was the hit dice of the decadrones and their CR or whatever it was back in the day.

The formians have Queens, and the Scion Queen Mother as their top dog.

lord_khaine
2010-02-25, 03:45 AM
Arcanoloths are more powerful than Ultraloths.

What is an Auramach?

yeah the Ultraloths are pretty weak stats-wise, apperently the main reason they remain in charge is that they have convinced everyone else that they are seriously powerfull.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 05:06 AM
Mordons have basically been replaced with formians and inevitables in 3rd ed. I can't even find them in a MM or even planar HB or even the manual of planes. Dragon magazine made some stats for them but that's it.

Inevitables are a lot cooler than Mordons anyway. Mordons only really worked in Planescape anyway to emphasize how diverse things were.

There is a web enhancement that details them, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a&pf=true). Incidentally, it's spelled "modron", not "mordon".

Clovis
2010-02-25, 06:26 AM
No DM should ever bring any Powers into the equation without immediately tossing out the absolute crap stats in BoVD and D&DG. The only things that prevents a moderately-optimized 10th-level party from wiping both books' selection of Powers are Alter Reality and Hand of Death. Use Dicefreaks' stats or stat them yourself if you want them to accurately reflect the lore.

I agree on that. The Dicefreaks put Asmodeus at CR81 which means he's just about unbeatable [the ultimate NPC]. And one of the oldest primal forces with a divine rank of 21.

Volkov
2010-02-25, 07:14 AM
I agree on that. The Dicefreaks put Asmodeus at CR81 which means he's just about unbeatable [the ultimate NPC]. And one of the oldest primal forces with a divine rank of 21.

I could still kill him with the old last word, which I imagine to be "Zeeky Buggy Doog." Or "Gleeg Snag Zip."

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 08:56 AM
It's clearly this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM)

White Blade
2010-02-25, 09:16 AM
I never got the impression that Asmodeus was exceptionally powerful on the massive spiritual level that he plays. (Of course, normal adventurers can't kill him. But they can't kill anyone on that level.) I always got the impression that he was the Lex Luthor of the spiritual world.

Sure, Superman could beat the tar out of him in a fight, sure there are other, more physically powerful evil doers, sure he isn't the strongest of the bunch. But he ends up in charge, again and again and again, and he stays out of prison, stays alive, and takes everything he ever wanted from everyone who ever deserved it. He's not exceptionally dangerous if the God of Paladins wants to wade down and stick a sword in him, that isn't the problem. Asmodeus isn't really powerful because he can take any number of hits or kill you. No, Asmodeus is really powerful because he has enough experience, enough intellect and cunning, enough time, to basically own the soul of anyone he pleases, to force the Gods themselves into a contract, to control every rebellious underling that hell provides.

Ah, bit off topic, but the Asmodeus piece needed saying.

Volkov
2010-02-25, 09:41 AM
I never got the impression that Asmodeus was exceptionally powerful on the massive spiritual level that he plays. (Of course, normal adventurers can't kill him. But they can't kill anyone on that level.) I always got the impression that he was the Lex Luthor of the spiritual world.

Sure, Superman could beat the tar out of him in a fight, sure there are other, more physically powerful evil doers, sure he isn't the strongest of the bunch. But he ends up in charge, again and again and again, and he stays out of prison, stays alive, and takes everything he ever wanted from everyone who ever deserved it. He's not exceptionally dangerous if the God of Paladins wants to wade down and stick a sword in him, that isn't the problem. Asmodeus isn't really powerful because he can take any number of hits or kill you. No, Asmodeus is really powerful because he has enough experience, enough intellect and cunning, enough time, to basically own the soul of anyone he pleases, to force the Gods themselves into a contract, to control every rebellious underling that hell provides.

Ah, bit off topic, but the Asmodeus piece needed saying.
If Asmodeus is lex luthor, then Vecna is doctor doom.

bosssmiley
2010-02-25, 11:57 AM
Arcanoloths are more powerful than Ultraloths.

"Just as planned."
-- anonymous Ultraloth

DiceFreaks Lawful Project (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=408&p=3430), an attempt to make sense of the Modrons (and of why the examplars of Law are variously Wind Dukes, Modrons, Antmen, magic robots, and living cogs).

They also statted a few of the Hierarch grades IIRC.

chiasaur11
2010-02-25, 12:47 PM
It's clearly this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM)

And Primus can say it safely because he has no sense of humor whatsoever.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-25, 12:50 PM
If Asmodeus is lex luthor, then Vecna is doctor doom.

Awesome! :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2010-02-25, 01:38 PM
And Primus can say it safely because he has no sense of humor whatsoever.

He was killed by it, you know. Though he probably reacted like the german officer.

Samb
2010-02-25, 06:13 PM
I always preferred the 2E explanation of Amodues. One of the primal forces of law that created the universe out of raw chaos with his twin (the goddess of the coutl). The two of them had a falling out because they disagreed on good and evil. Both bit the tail off one another (orobus) and while Amodues fell, his blood created the first devils.

Amodues of 2E (and maybe 3E) was much more than a mere god, he was the creator of the multiverse. Half of the great wheel once rested on his back. He doesn't need worshippers, he doesn't grant spells, his real body IS the 9th layer of Baator. He pretends to be a "mere" devil lord so no will know his true goal. The charming devil everyone sees is a mere mental projection of his true self. And even that is more than most gods can handle.

I really hate the "Amodues desires godhood" fluff in 3E. In 2E, gods are Mere gnats that he could not bothered to swat. If 2E had one thing right, it was Amodues' undispute big bad reputation.

Amiel
2010-02-25, 06:20 PM
No DM should ever bring any Powers into the equation without immediately tossing out the absolute crap stats in BoVD and D&DG. The only things that prevents a moderately-optimized 10th-level party from wiping both books' selection of Powers are Alter Reality and Hand of Death. Use [...] to accurately reflect the lore.

Or my stats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111306)? :)

Volkov
2010-02-25, 06:26 PM
I always preferred the 2E explanation of Amodues. One of the primal forces of law that created the universe out of raw chaos with his twin (the goddess of the coutl). The two of them had a falling out because they disagreed on good and evil. Both bit the tail off one another (orobus) and while Amodues fell, his blood created the first devils.

Amodues of 2E (and maybe 3E) was much more than a mere god, he was the creator of the multiverse. Half of the great wheel once rested on his back. He doesn't need worshippers, he doesn't grant spells, his real body IS the 9th layer of Baator. He pretends to be a "mere" devil lord so no will know his true goal. The charming devil everyone sees is a mere mental projection of his true self. And even that is more than most gods can handle.

I really hate the "Amodues desires godhood" fluff in 3E. In 2E, gods are Mere gnats that he could not bothered to swat. If 2E had one thing right, it was Amodues' undispute big bad reputation.
Even Asmodeus's existence was threatened by Vecna's ****ing around with reality in the Vecna series of modules. It was stated that if Vecna won, everyone who ever opposed him would have been crushed brutally. And also, it provides a nice in-game explanation for the differences between 2e and 3e.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-25, 06:27 PM
Or my stats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111306)? :)

That works too. There are plenty of good statblocks for various Powers floating around the web; it really doesn't matter which you use, as long as they fit with the Powers' reputations.


And also, it provides a nice in-game explanation for the differences between 2e and 3e.

That's not so much an "and also" as much as the whole point of the series. Just like with the whole Time of Troubles and Spellplague in FR, the developers generally like to switch editions with a big bang; it just so happened that they wanted to involved Sigil, Ravenloft, and Vecna for the 2e-3e transition in Planescape.

Volkov
2010-02-25, 06:31 PM
I prefered Vecna's straight wizard 2e stats to the no epic level stuff allowed stats in D&Dg. For one, a level 30something wizard is much more threatening than a level 20 wizard/level 20 cleric.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-26, 09:46 AM
I prefered Vecna's straight wizard 2e stats to the no epic level stuff allowed stats in D&Dg. For one, a level 30something wizard is much more threatening than a level 20 wizard/level 20 cleric.

Deities & Demigods explicitly states that if you're using the Epic Level Handbook you should revise the deity stats to use it as well. The reason they didn't is because they can't assume everyone who bought D&DG would also buy ELH.

nyarlathotep
2010-02-26, 10:17 AM
Asmodeus is described, before 4th edition, as a being of monumental power. His bleeding creates Pit Fiends. In his own realm, the Ninth, (and the rest of Baator really), he has power comparable to anything a god has. He can make and unmake reality at whim.

Plus, he is the original trickster, the first fallen angel, he broke the first contract and is so much older then Primus or the Scion that it isn't even funny. According to the fluff in any case, they never mechanically created anything more then his avatar. I think he would have the upper hand if he ever lowered himself enough to fight either of them.

Plus, didn't the old Primus die? Not exactly a great track record.

Yes and the gods were able to throw Asmodeus out of Celestia. Primus died fighting a literal army of inevitables.

Edit: This talk of Primus being killed by the Last Word is news to me. Got the source cause I'm always up for more modron knowledge.

Amiel
2010-02-26, 11:04 AM
Edit: This talk of Primus being killed by the Last Word is news to me. Got the source cause I'm always up for more modron knowledge.

It's within the Dead Gods supplement (you may have difficulty obtaining a copy); of the Planescape product line.

Dead Gods also details the other deities consumed by the Last Word at Orcus' unleashing.

Gorbash
2010-02-26, 12:02 PM
I already posted them, but the most interesting thing about them is that they are they answer a lot of questions on these boards about why wizards don't take over the multiverse, or why everyone isn't using spells/powers to have infinite turns. Throw a few of these guys at your "godly" wizards and find out.


You're... joking, right? I mean, anyone who aspires to be a god or kill a good, will find these guys as annoying as dirt under their nails. They have 150 HP and Fort save of +9 meaning they're pushover for both melee and caster characters who aspire to godhood.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-26, 02:25 PM
You're... joking, right? I mean, anyone who aspires to be a god or kill a good, will find these guys as annoying as dirt under their nails. They have 150 HP and Fort save of +9 meaning they're pushover for both melee and caster characters who aspire to godhood.

Actually, two varakhuts can have a good chance of shutting down a single caster if you're not averse to scry-n-die tactics and good SLA use (which, if you're DMing a caster trying to kill a god, you should be).
The varakhuts finds him via their locate creature SLA (which they have at will, so they'll find him eventually even if he has a nondetection up).
Both varakhuts put up one of their three time stops and greater teleport to the caster's location.
One uses a greater effect of its XP-less wish to disjunction the wizard, and the other one uses limited wish to put up a dimensional lock in the caster's area.
One uses cloudkill on the caster location, the other one sticks him in a barred forcecage.
When they come out of time stop, they each attack the caster with their meteor swarm SLA.
The varakhut that used wish before uses its limited wish to attempt to feeblemind the caster, and the one that used limited wish uses wish to duplicate energy drain.
At this point, the debuffed, item-less, trapped, flat-footed caster has to make 3 DC 21+ Fort saves (while possibly Con-damaged and level-drained) with an unbuffed modifier around 10, and survive 64d6 damage delivered via touch attacks. Not looking good for our hero. Sure, if the wizard gets the drop on the varakhuts, they're screwed—but of all the infinite inevitables in Mechanus, only two have to get the drop on him.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-26, 02:32 PM
So if Asmodeus is Lex Luthor, and Vecna is Dr. Doom...who's Squirrel Girl?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 02:37 PM
Actually, two varakhuts can have a good chance of shutting down a single caster if you're not averse to scry-n-die tactics and good SLA use (which, if you're DMing a caster trying to kill a god, you should be).
The varakhuts finds him via their locate creature SLA (which they have at will, so they'll find him eventually even if he has a nondetection up).
Both varakhuts put up one of their three time stops and greater teleport to the caster's location.
One uses a greater effect of its XP-less wish to disjunction the wizard, and the other one uses limited wish to put up a dimensional lock in the caster's area.
One uses cloudkill on the caster location, the other one sticks him in a barred forcecage.
When they come out of time stop, they each attack the caster with their meteor swarm SLA.
The varakhut that used wish before uses its limited wish to attempt to feeblemind the caster, and the one that used limited wish uses wish to duplicate energy drain.
At this point, the debuffed, item-less, trapped, flat-footed caster has to make 3 DC 21+ Fort saves (while possibly Con-damaged and level-drained) with an unbuffed modifier around 10, and survive 64d6 damage delivered via touch attacks. Not looking good for our hero. Sure, if the wizard gets the drop on the varakhuts, they're screwed—but of all the infinite inevitables in Mechanus, only two have to get the drop on him.

The Disjunction is illegal, because he's immune to it while they're Time Stopped. Also, Wish can't duplicate Energy Drain or Disjunction without going for a greater effect (which will likely not work).

Limited Wish also cannot duplicate the 8th level Dimensional Lock.

But that aside, they are a threat.

They don't even need to scry-n-die, they could simply summon the miscreant using Wish (transport travellers option).

tyckspoon
2010-02-26, 02:47 PM
Actually, two varakhuts can have a good chance of shutting down a single caster if you're not averse to scry-n-die tactics and good SLA use (which, if you're DMing a caster trying to kill a god, you should be).


a: Locate Creature doesn't work like that
b: Mind Blank is a 24 hour duration spell the wizard *will* have with 100% uptime
c: It's easier just to Wish your kill team to the wizard anyway, which will work with absolute reliability pretty much regardless of what the wizard tries to do to prevent interference (although the Varakhuts may still get stuck in an Anticipate Teleportation buffer)
d: you can't cast Disjunction out of a Time Stop.

A pair of anything with good SLAs and Wish is still threatening, but it's not that easy to actually pull off a Scry-and-Die on a high level wizard, let alone one that can make a credible attempt at forcefully claiming godhood.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-02-26, 02:55 PM
It's within the Dead Gods supplement (you may have difficulty obtaining a copy); of the Planescape product line.

Dead Gods also details the other deities consumed by the Last Word at Orcus' unleashing.

Doesn't killing Primus not matter?

I thought I read somewhere that when Primus dies, the Modrons freak out for a few decades/centuries/millenia and then one of them just elevates himself to Primus, the others agree that it is logical, and they get back to work doing...

...well, whatever the hell it is the Modrons are doing in your setting.

Eldan
2010-02-26, 03:07 PM
Normally, yes. One of the Secundi is made the new Primus, and then the promotions go on down the line, until a new monodrone comes from the source.

In this case, however, and these are major spoilers for the Great Modron March, Orcus not only killed Primus, but also took his place in the modron hierarchy.

Zanatos777
2010-02-26, 03:16 PM
Doesn't killing Primus not matter?

I thought I read somewhere that when Primus dies, the Modrons freak out for a few decades/centuries/millenia and then one of them just elevates himself to Primus, the others agree that it is logical, and they get back to work doing...

...well, whatever the hell it is the Modrons are doing in your setting.

Actually it takes about an hour for the Primus to arise and the lower Modrons don't even know he exists anyway.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-26, 03:41 PM
The Disjunction is illegal, because he's immune to it while they're Time Stopped. Also, Wish can't duplicate Energy Drain or Disjunction without going for a greater effect (which will likely not work).

Limited Wish also cannot duplicate the 8th level Dimensional Lock.

But that aside, they are a threat.

They don't even need to scry-n-die, they could simply summon the miscreant using Wish (transport travellers option).


a: Locate Creature doesn't work like that
b: Mind Blank is a 24 hour duration spell the wizard *will* have with 100% uptime
c: It's easier just to Wish your kill team to the wizard anyway, which will work with absolute reliability pretty much regardless of what the wizard tries to do to prevent interference (although the Varakhuts may still get stuck in an Anticipate Teleportation buffer)
d: you can't cast Disjunction out of a Time Stop.

A pair of anything with good SLAs and Wish is still threatening, but it's not that easy to actually pull off a Scry-and-Die on a high level wizard, let alone one that can make a credible attempt at forcefully claiming godhood.

Well, I feel like an idiot. :smallredface: Forgot the need for Delay Spell on most of the effects (I automatically stick Delay Spell on anything with time stop these days), mixed up Lock and Anchor, etc. (Though I did mention the wish-for-greater-effects thing; the wishes aren't being deliberately twisted and there's no XP cost, so a greater effect should work fine and if nothing else they can wish themselves up a custom item to do it.) I'm going to shut up and stop making up tactics for creatures I read for the first time now.

Gorbash
2010-02-26, 03:56 PM
Well, more to the point, I believe that Mechanus doesn't send multiple Inevitables on the same task, they send upgraded versions of the ones that are detroyed.

Depending on the DM's interpretation of the laws of Mechanus, it might or it might not work to simply disable the said Inevitable and bury it under a hill or something.

Sydonai
2010-03-23, 02:06 AM
Even Asmodeus's existence was threatened by Vecna's ****ing around with reality in the Vecna series of modules. It was stated that if Vecna won, everyone who ever opposed him would have been crushed brutally. And also, it provides a nice in-game explanation for the differences between 2e and 3e.


Vecna worshiped(and still does despite being a god) The Serpent, well guess what. Asmodeus is The Serpent, or at least it's personification/avatar.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-03-23, 03:24 AM
Vecna worshiped(and still does despite being a god) The Serpent, well guess what. Asmodeus is The Serpent, or at least it's personification/avatar.

http://www.novarata.net/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

The Rose Dragon
2010-03-23, 06:43 PM
*picture that misses the point*

It's not thread necromancy. The thread wasn't even a month old. It requires a thread to be at least a month and a half old before it is considered thread necromancy.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-23, 07:14 PM
It's not thread necromancy. The thread wasn't even a month old. It requires a thread to be at least a month and a half old before it is considered thread necromancy.

I miss the one Azerian Kemellian (that's probably not how you spell it at all) used to post...

Heliomance
2010-03-23, 07:16 PM
One of the DMs around here runs inevitables thusly: If Mechanus deems it necessary, a single inevitable is sent out to stop you. If that fails, two inevitables are sent out. Should they fail, four are sent out, and so on. I don't really think many casters could deal with 1024 simultaneous varakhuts.