Knowledge (DMing)

[ArcanistSupreme]

As a somewhat inexperienced DM, I find that Knowledge skills are a little tricky to deal with. My questions for all of you are as follows:

Should a PC be required to use a library for broad and in-depth knowledge checks?
Should a player be allowed to research topics if they have no ranks in the relevant knowledge skill for that topic provided they have access to a library?
If yes, how long should this take?
How much information should a player get on a roll of 10? 15? 20?

Any book references regarding these questions would also be nice.

Thanks!

[Ranos]

As a somewhat inexperienced DM, I find that Knowledge skills are a little tricky to deal with. My questions for all of you are as follows:

Should a PC be required to use a library for broad and in-depth knowledge checks?
Should a player be allowed to research topics if they have no ranks in the relevant knowledge skill for that topic provided they have access to a library?
If yes, how long should this take?
How much information should a player get on a roll of 10? 15? 20?

Any book references regarding these questions would also be nice.

Thanks!

*No. Knowledge is stuff they already know, no research needed. Libraries would be more closely tied with the search skill.
*Sure.
*No rules on that. You'll have to wing it.
*10 is common knowledge. 15 is basic questions. 20 to 30 for really tough questions.

[Temotei]

You could house rule Gather Information as library checks instead of Knowledge, since Knowledge represents what one knows.

[ArcanistSupreme]

*Sure.

That seems to defeat the purpose of having any ranks in Knowledge skills, as players can just look up what specific monsters are weak to if they know they're going to be encountering them.


*10 is common knowledge. 15 is basic questions. 20 to 30 for really tough questions.

But how much info do I give out? If they ask for the general history of the region, does a 27 net them two or three pages of it?

EDIT:
You could house rule Gather Information as library checks instead of Knowledge, since Knowledge represents what one knows.

But that seems to, again, defeat the purpose of Knowledge skills.

I guess my whole issue with the Knowledge skills is that characters with ranks should be somewhat bookish, but is all of their book time spent off-screen? And if you can just get relevant information with the Gather Information skill, why waste ranks in multiple skills when you can just grab it all with one?

[Boci]

That seems to defeat the purpose of having any ranks in Knowledge skills, as players can just look up what specific monsters are weak to if they know they're going to be encountering them.

Wait wait wait. You think that if the PCs know what they are going to face, their character's should not be able to research it without ranks in knowledge? Knowledge is useful for all those encounters you weren't expecting.


But how much info do I give out? If they ask for the general history of the region, does a 27 net them two or three pages of it?

A 27 would give them the general history of the land and some not common fact. It doesn't have to be useful if their request if vague, and a high knowledge check reveals nothing if there is nothing to learn.

[Raum]

As a somewhat inexperienced DM, I find that Knowledge skills are a little tricky to deal with. My questions for all of you are as follows:

Should a PC be required to use a library for broad and in-depth knowledge checks?
Should a player be allowed to research topics if they have no ranks in the relevant knowledge skill for that topic provided they have access to a library?
If yes, how long should this take?
How much information should a player get on a roll of 10? 15? 20?

Any book references regarding these questions would also be nice.

Thanks!I recommend giving a bonus to the knowledge roll when a library with relevant information is used as part of research. That gives characters with the relevant knowledge skill a much better chance of success, gives the untrained seeker a chance, and ensures having the skill still means something. It also lets you hand out books as treasure...

[Haven]

I think I would treat access to a library as giving you a +2 circumstance bonus on a knowledge check, and/or allowing you to take 20. Of course, either way you'd have to say it takes more than a free action to gain this benefit, unlike a normal Knowledge check. How long is up to you, and depends on how well-organized the library is, but I'd say an hour or so per fact, spent searching stacks and thumbing through books.

So then it would only be required if it was a check that's so high they'd need the circumstance bonus and/or a natural 20 to reach it.

Of course, this is all going by RAW. Another way to handle this, which may be better if you need them to visit the library for some plot reason, could be to say that the only answer to this question lies within a tome that no one's read in hundreds of years, gathering dust on the shelves (or depending on the quality of the library, having an apprentice mage by every so often to cast a cleaning/preserving cantrip on it; the library doesn't know what it's about, but someone put it in the Dweomer Decimal System a while ago, and it's old and valuable, so it's worth maintaining).

[Superglucose]

Don't roll to find things in libraries, just make it take an amount of time.

See, most real libraries will have librarians, which unlike the fail old ladies behind the desk who yell at you that most people think of, are typically individuals who are crazily well-versed in where the appropriate books are. So they spend a day in the library and get the information they need... how much information they get is determined by the quality of the library not the quality of the check.

i.e. the local public library might have some information on where Barzak the Evil was born, but if you're looking for the detailed biography you have to go to El Supremo Biblioteca de la Universidad... Arcane (ok so I don't know the spanish equivalent to "arcane") on the other side of a closed border to a nation that is currently at war with the one you're trying to help... who's proprietor is a hungry mind-flayer who consented to eat nothing but sheep brains so he could have the honor of watching over this super special awesome library so he's a bit ornery and you're going to need to do him a favor.

[tyckspoon]

I guess my whole issue with the Knowledge skills is that characters with ranks should be somewhat bookish, but is all of their book time spent off-screen? And if you can just get relevant information with the Gather Information skill, why waste ranks in multiple skills when you can just grab it all with one?

Basically, yes- characters with Knowledges are assumed to be doing the necessary studying off-camera. Knowledge represents a character's previously-acquired pool of information. Gather Information is used to actively acquire new information. They're complementary, not replacements for each other; Gather Information is what you use when you're dealing something outside of your Knowledges or when you fail your Knowledge check (ie "Huh. I don't know much about that, but I think it would be useful to learn a bit. To the library!" Gather Information checks ensue.)

And yes, access to a good library is often treated like a Masterwork Tool for Knowledge rolls. It would provide the same benefit for Gather Information if the information you wanted was in those books.

[elonin]

The library could give a bonus to knowledge checks if it can be accessed when making the check. That would take longer depending on how obscure the info is.

Please stop me (and ignore this) if this is dragging this thread off the rails. I've always had a disagreement with knowledge checks. I've got the impression that by the knowledge check rules then anyone without ranks in knowledges would know what they were facing even if it were the same creature that had been faced for the whole campaign.

[Temotei]

Knowledge Devotion is helpful as well. Or you could always implement the Knowledge skills shown in the "Gaming" section on the left side of the forum screen.

[Haven]

Superglucose--Librarians are awesome, but look at it like this: even when they find the book, they have to take what they find in the library and synthesize it with what they already know to get something useful, because the answer they find may be in such a specialized format that it's useless to someone who doesn't already have the background knowledge.

That's what the knowledge check (with bonus) represents, mechanically speaking. IMO anyway. Or another way: they already know most of the questions that need to be asked, so they can skip the basics and find their answer a whole lot more quickly (otherwise they'd have to take 20).

Also, Gather Information shouldn't apply: that's more like hitting the streets and pumping people for info, which is why its key skill is Charisma. It wouldn't apply to most things you would find in a library, it's more of a current events roll if anything.

[truemane]

Gather Information is a Charisma-based skill. Unless you're specifically fluffing the roll as a talk with the Librarian, it shouldn't really have any effect.

Also, in a Fantasy Medieval period, there wouldn't be public libraries. There would be Monasteries and rich Nobles. And that's about it.

As a general regarding what you reveal beased on a check, my general rule is to use Knowledge checks to drive the story. If someone makes a good roll, tell them things that are likely to make the plot more interesting. And if there are secrets you don't want revealed, then a high check could very well reveal places they could do to acquire them (leading to more plot complications).

But as to the amount of information revealed, unless the player wants CRAZY detail, all you need to do is give a quick-sketch. And as they roll higher, the quick-sketch can get more specific, but it doesn't really have to get any longer.

They can always tell you the specific info they're looking for, if they're indeed looking for anything.

I know that's much help. The answer is, in the end, as much as you feel like giving.

[tyckspoon]

Please stop me (and ignore this) if this is dragging this thread off the rails. I've always had a disagreement with knowledge checks. I've got the impression that by the knowledge check rules then anyone without ranks in knowledges would know what they were facing even if it were the same creature that had been faced for the whole campaign.

One of the better examples of what is termed 'RAWtarded'. Knowledge isn't really meant to represent the sum total of everything a character knows- in particular, it doesn't have much to do with things a character has first-hand experience of, and it doesn't intersect at all with things a character learns in-game with the 'camera' paying attention. You don't un-learn that red dragons breathe fire and have a distinctive wing shape after you fight one just because you run into an older one that has a higher Knowledge DC.

[ArcanistSupreme]

So if the players are in a fairly well-stocked library owned by the adventuring guild that they are a part of, what is a reasonable DC/amount of time to figure out the laws of surrounding nations and the forms of government they use (the player was fairly vague about what he wanted to know)? Assume the library is well stocked (about public-library quality) and decently organized, but many of the books are in different languages/dialects or waaay outdated. Also, the player only has 1 rank in Knowledge (local) and no other Knowledge skills.

[Boci]

So if the players are in a fairly well-stocked library owned by the adventuring guild that they are a part of, what is a reasonable DC/amount of time to figure out the laws of surrounding nations and the forms of government they use (the player was fairly vague about what he wanted to know)? Assume the library is well stocked (about public-library quality) and decently organized, but many of the books are in different languages/dialects or waaay outdated. Also, the player only has 1 rank in Knowledge (local) and no other Knowledge skills.

It really depends. I n some games that would be considered background knowledge available to all characters, in others it could be more obscure. Really time is the limiting factor here, not ranks.

[tyckspoon]

Couple of days if your player is goose enough to try and hunt it all down himself. Couple of hours if he has the sense to ask somebody for help who already knows where the relevant texts are. Same time but different skills if he just asks somebody who already knows to brief him (and I would assume the guild has such a person, because it would be important for its members to know what unusual laws they might run afoul of when operating in the neighboring states.) I wouldn't require a rolled check in any of those situations unless your players get especially silly and offend the people who can help them; they just spend the needed time and learn what they wanted to know.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The nations keep pretty much to themselves, so the type of government (monarchy, democracy) would be fairly common knowledge, but specific laws and the amount of power each governing body holds would be a bit more obscure for someone not from an urban area in that region.

EDIT:

Couple of days if your player is goose enough to try and hunt it all down himself. Couple of hours if he has the sense to ask somebody for help who already knows where the relevant texts are. Same time but different skills if he just asks somebody who already knows to brief him (and I would assume the guild has such a person, because it would be important for its members to know what unusual laws they might run afoul of when operating in the neighboring states.) I wouldn't require a rolled check in any of those situations unless your players get especially silly and offend the people who can help them; they just spend the needed time and learn what they wanted to know.

This is pretty much exactly what I wanted. Thanks.

[valadil]

Should a PC be required to use a library for broad and in-depth knowledge checks?
Should a player be allowed to research topics if they have no ranks in the relevant knowledge skill for that topic provided they have access to a library?
If yes, how long should this take?
How much information should a player get on a roll of 10? 15? 20?

Thanks!

1. No. Knowledge is what your characters already know. If they don't have the skill or fail the check, the library may be an alternative. If players really wanted to use a library I suppose it could give a bonus on a knowledge check. I'd also use a library for some particularly arcane piece of trivia.

2. Sure, why not? I think a bigger question is if the topic is available at the library.

3. Time should be at the speed of plot. Going back to the last answer, tracking down the right library and getting permission to use it could be a part of knowledge gaining quest. If your PCs aren't the book type, this would turn the gain knowledge quest into a social challenge, which may be more up their alley.

4. 4th ed books are awesome for this. Specifically the Forgotten Realms campaign guide tells you what knowledge is available in each city at various DCs. Some of these are history, some of them are plot. Usually basic information is DC 10. Knowledge that would be held by several people, but not just anyone who lives there would be DC 15. This is the sort of thing like the name of the local thieves guild. It's common knowledge, but only in certain circles. DC 20 is pretty rare knowledge and anything above that is only known by a few people in the world.