The Permanency Spell [3.5]

[CockroachTeaParty]

I always thought that getting various spell effects permanently cast upon a character via the Permanency spell would be a good idea, especially in higher level games, as both a good precaution and a time-saver.

However, permanencied spells can be dispelled, and once they're gone, the XP spent to get them is lost.

Are there any bits I'm missing? Any houserules that would make the spell more desirable?

Perhaps a dispelled permanent spell returns to the subject after 24 hours have passed? How would one balance this?

What about NPCs, who don't have XP totals? Why wouldn't certain high-level NPCs have various defensive and utilitarian spells permanently cast upon them, thus saving buff time?

I find in most games Permanency is disregarded or ignored. Do other people have experience with the spell in their games?

[Flarp]

I always thought that getting various spell effects permanently cast upon a character via the Permanency spell would be a good idea, especially in higher level games, as both a good precaution and a time-saver.

However, permanencied spells can be dispelled, and once they're gone, the XP spent to get them is lost.

Are there any bits I'm missing? Any houserules that would make the spell more desirable?

Perhaps a dispelled permanent spell returns to the subject after 24 hours have passed? How would one balance this?

What about NPCs, who don't have XP totals? Why wouldn't certain high-level NPCs have various defensive and utilitarian spells permanently cast upon them, thus saving buff time?

I find in most games Permanency is disregarded or ignored. Do other people have experience with the spell in their games?

Spells that no enemy would ever bother to dispel, such as Speak with Animals or Tongues would certainly apply.

[Claudius Maximus]

Spells that no enemy would ever bother to dispel, such as Speak with Animals or Tongues would certainly apply.

But they would be automatically included in a targeted dispel.

Some applications of Permanency can't be dispelled by casters of a lower level than you were when you cast the spell. Also, I reckon many NPCs wouldn't expect combat as often as a PC adventuring group, and thus wouldn't worry about dispelling much.

[Jack_Simth]

I always thought that getting various spell effects permanently cast upon a character via the Permanency spell would be a good idea, especially in higher level games, as both a good precaution and a time-saver.

However, permanencied spells can be dispelled, and once they're gone, the XP spent to get them is lost.

Are there any bits I'm missing? Any houserules that would make the spell more desirable?

Perhaps a dispelled permanent spell returns to the subject after 24 hours have passed? How would one balance this?

What about NPCs, who don't have XP totals? Why wouldn't certain high-level NPCs have various defensive and utilitarian spells permanently cast upon them, thus saving buff time?

I find in most games Permanency is disregarded or ignored. Do other people have experience with the spell in their games?

If dispelling is not a common opponent tactic, Permanency becomes quite useful. If Dispelling is a common opponent tactic, Permanency becomes quite useless. Most times, the DM plays at about the level of the players. If the players use lots of Dispels and buffs, the DM will use lots of Dispels and buffs.

So if your group casts a lot of Dispels, Permanency is useless... if you almost never cast Dispel Magic (or variants), Permanency is quite useful.

As to house-ruling dispelled Permanency spells to come back after X timeframe? It's not particularly broken, really.

[Fizban]

That's an idea: you could rule that a dispelled permanent spell is instead suppressed like a magic item for.... 1d4+1 rounds I think it was? Or having it come back in a day is good too. Sadly they're still both house rules: as is there's really no reason to use permanency unless it's the only way to get the effect you want. The low level spells like detect magic are better off in cheap items, and the high level spells are useless or would make you a prime dispelling target. Permanency would probably be good in games where the group is more worried about the plot than optimizing their characters. In that kind of situation, a permanant animate objects or other specific spell could be the exact tool for the job, and a dispel would be used as more of a plot point from the boss instead of a mook sundering your spell.

[Ormagoden]

I'd toy with the idea of making it be suppressed for 24 hours or possibly d6 hours.

[Optimystik]

I'd have it suppress permanent spells for 1d4 rounds, just like the Dispel Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) and items.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I think pulling out the big guns, like Disjunction, would get rid of Permanency assuming house rules were in effect. But why ever bring out Disjunction unless you hate your players?

[magic9mushroom]

I think pulling out the big guns, like Disjunction, would get rid of Permanency assuming house rules were in effect. But why ever bring out Disjunction unless you hate your players?

Eh, just give the guy with it PC loot and you should be fine.

[Volkov]

I think pulling out the big guns, like Disjunction, would get rid of Permanency assuming house rules were in effect. But why ever bring out Disjunction unless you hate your players?

To make what tv tropes calls a hopeless boss fight.

[Tyndmyr]

The xp cost isn't too bad, given that xp is a river.

And hey, dispel is always a caster threat. You need to take precautions for it. For example, using CL boosters for permanencied spells. Limits who can cause you difficulties. Secondly, wearing a ring of counterspells, loaded with Dispel Magic. It's not a guarantee, but damn does it help.

[Lysander]

One answer is to research transformation spells that grant permanent extraordinary abilities as an instataneous effect. As opposed to enchanting your eyes to have Darkvision it'd physically alter your eyes to grant Darkvision. They would need a steep xp cost and a high level though.

[ericgrau]

It is in fact a very nice benefit but at a hefty cost. Remember that when you're a level behind the party you gain xp faster, so the cost is not permanent.

Keep track of how often the monsters have been dispelling you. If it's not often, spend a small amount of xp on permanency. That way you get some benefit but it's not a huge loss if you get dispelled.

I find people are often scared to use it because of dispel, but don't actually get hit with a dispel all that often and usually don't realize that they'll get their xp back either.

[Lysander]

I suppose the best thing to do is use it on spells you really need, as opposed to just taking everything simply because you can.

[herrhauptmann]

It is in fact a very nice benefit but at a hefty cost. Remember that when you're a level behind the party you gain xp faster, so the cost is not permanent.


But every second level or so, you'll gain at the same rate even when you're a level lower.

Personally, I'd rather use permanency to help out my tank characters. Get DM approval to use it on lesser vigor, then just relax between fights even when we don't have a party healer.
At that point though, I'd be paying a lower level NPC for a casting of a spell. Even easier to have that dispelled by an enemy, than say the Darkvision and Arcane SIght that the party batman put on himself 2 levels ago.

[Ernir]

I suppose the best thing to do is use it on spells you really need, as opposed to just taking everything simply because you can.

And that only on the spells you really need up 24/7, those you'll never know when will come up. See Invisibility and Alarm (if you aren't Rope-Tricking) on your stronghold access point(s) come to mind.

[ericgrau]

But every second level or so, you'll gain at the same rate even when you're a level lower.
Eh, eventually you'll get it back. If it makes you feel better psychologically you could only spend whatever you get back, and constantly be slightly behind and level up a hair later than everyone else. Or if you also become a crafter you can constantly be a full level behind and get a non-stop stream of free xp to spend on crafting and permanency as you get it. The benefit of that usually outweighs the cost.

[Kobold-Bard]

My rule is that they are suppressed and can be brought back with a minute of concentration (10 consecutive Full-round actions, no AoO). Completely arbitrary but I like it.

[jiriku]

Some builds can use permanency more reliably than others. A red wizard or other PrC that can use circle magic can easily pump their caster level for one day, long enough to cast the permanent spell at an extremely high caster level. If you can get to caster level 35, then even a greater dispel magic can't dispel your permanent spells.

On the other end of the spectrum, a properly built dweomerkeeper can cast permanency without spending xp, so the spell can be cheaply recast if it's dispelled.

[Eldariel]

Purchasing Permanency from auxillary Wizards is a decent way around the XP cost, but that of course makes it into a GP cost which can be even more painful depending on how much the DM cares about WBL (or if at all).

[herrhauptmann]

Purchasing Permanency from auxillary Wizards is a decent way around the XP cost, but that of course makes it into a GP cost which can be even more painful depending on how much the DM cares about WBL (or if at all).

And you're doubly screwed if it gets dispelled. Because now you can't even get it recast until you find a wizard who will cast for cash.