How should I run a game with few/no magic items?

[TheMinxTail]

Hi, I'm new to the forums. I haven't been playing D&D for long (I recently switched from 4e to Pathfinder while my group of even less experienced gamers who I DM for weren't too attached to it yet), so I guess I'm looking for advice from the more experienced of you out there - and it might help just to get the ball rolling anyway. As the title would suggest, I was thinking of trying to run a game with a minimal amount of magic items. Thing is, my players can usually keep in the game if I can guide them (as they are pretty new, I usually end up making their characters for them during our little mini-campaigns), which means I have to keep my head on everyone's stats - enemy and ally alike. However, I can usually do that well enough since we get together rarely enough for me to memorise my material between sessions. The thing taht always gets me no matter how much I master feats and class features, the magic item system is always too tricky for me to get to grips with on top of all that. Constant benefits are easy - you have a +3 flaming longsword? Fine, I'll note the extra fire damage and bonus to rolls in advance. You have a +4 Belt of Giant Strength or whatever it was called? Easily accounted for. You have a hat of disguise, a few dozen emergency scrolls, immovable rod, a ring of spell storing and... how many potions of heroism did you con off the Barony's Alchemist? At that point, its all a bit much to juggle - but the game balance is projected from the presence of items like those, so I can't just rule to outright scrap them.

I read over the Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted deeds (bargain bin, yay), and I'm not sure what to make of it - some people say its nerfed and otehrs overpowered. If I use somehting like that though, I can afford to start a proper campaign off at a slightly higher level, without the thing getting bogged down in endless skimming over poorly handwritten notes on the Rogue's greedy little collection of magic doo-das . So, what do you people of teh Playground think? Any other variant rules you could recommend, or perhaps just a tried and true method of DM-ing that I've yet to discover? Thanks for any help you can give, and thanks for reading at least this much.

[Myou]

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/innate_magic.htm

I have my own version of these rule, but that's not uploaded anywhere. But they're perfectly fine even if you use them exactly as written.

[TheMinxTail]

Awesome, man. Thanks for the link and quick reply! Its just the sort of thing I was looking for.

Anyone else want to chime in with their variant or homebrew of choice?

[Viletta Vadim]

Well, E6 tends to dramatically reduce the need for the Iron Man kit.

[Eldariel]

You can check the Campaign Journal linked in my sig. It's a no-magic game and the houserules used to make it happen are somewhat detailed in there. Basically, we just have a level-based Dodge-bonus to AC, increased stat growth speed and increased feat gain and skill gain (though the latter two to address inherent 3.5 issues rather than something specifically caused by no magic).

Also, VP/WP system nicely presents damage in such a way that it's very real while healing still being manageable (VP, not WP).

[Myou]

Awesome, man. Thanks for the link and quick reply! Its just the sort of thing I was looking for.

Anyone else want to chime in with their variant or homebrew of choice?

My pleasure! ^^

[TheMinxTail]

You can check the Campaign Journal linked in my sig. It's a no-magic game and the houserules used to make it happen are somewhat detailed in there. Basically, we just have a level-based Dodge-bonus to AC, increased stat growth speed and increased feat gain and skill gain (though the latter two to address inherent 3.5 issues rather than something specifically caused by no magic).

Also, VP/WP system nicely presents damage in such a way that it's very real while healing still being manageable (VP, not WP).

Awesome... don't know why I bothered looking all those defunked DM tips in the guide for these things, I should have just come to you guys months ago.


Well, E6 tends to dramatically reduce the need for the Iron Man kit.

What's an E6? Any second now when someone replies, I'll look like a real idiot probably.

[Greenish]

What's an E6?It's a variant where the characters don't advance in levels beyond level 6, after which they can use experience to buy feats. Here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/200045-e6-game-inside-d-d.html?pp=40

[TheMinxTail]

Hmm... it is a pretty cool system, E6, and I might run it some time. Unfortunately, I already have a rough idea of what sort of setting I'll be using for my next attempt at getting a campaign running, and it involves access to some rather impressive, over the top spells - I guess I'll probably post another thread for that though. But hey, when taht attempt nose dives in a month or so due to my players utter lack of dedication in my attempts at storytelling (n0t a good sign when you're trying to make it as a young author), maybe I'll toss my crazy-ass magic-item-free, monster PCs, all gestalt, high magic campaign to the side and see if the border between High Fantasy and Grittiness is a good place to start again.

[ericgrau]

Sig.nature

[Tyndmyr]

Well, E6 tends to dramatically reduce the need for the Iron Man kit.

This. Since encounters and power level drastically level off, so does the amount of gold per encounter, and the availability of items for sale. It doesn't remove all magic items, but it keeps them to a managable amount.

Which is, imo, the perfect way to learn the magic system. A little at a time. Normal campaigns, especially high level ones, can throw a lot of stuff at you to learn.

[TheMinxTail]

Sig.nature

'Sig'?

Oh, nice Problem Sleuth logo.

[Skaven]

Just be wary what you're doing.

Classes like fighters need magic items to compete at higher levels, an they tend to need a lot of them.

Wizards, Sorcerers and (to a lesser extent) Druids and Clerics kind of get by without the need for magic items.

[TheMinxTail]

This. Since encounters and power level drastically level off, so does the amount of gold per encounter, and the availability of items for sale. It doesn't remove all magic items, but it keeps them to a managable amount.

Which is, imo, the perfect way to learn the magic system. A little at a time. Normal campaigns, especially high level ones, can throw a lot of stuff at you to learn.

Yeah, I know I could do that, but apparently I'm super insane and want to run a mid-level adventure with monster PCs and the like. It'd keep the tiny group of players that I have so far intrested in the GMPCs I use to fill in the group, that's for sure. Ah, seriously though I'll give some thought to thing E6 business. At this rate, with all these variant rules, I'll probably have to make a little month long project to make my own sourcebook detailing these things for my players. Probably colour coded with pretty pictures, since my kid sister is teh most retarded 'genius' to have ever lived...

[ericgrau]

'Sig'?

Oh, nice Problem Sleuth logo.

My signature, last item. And thanks.

[TheMinxTail]

Just be wary what you're doing.

Classes like fighters need magic items to compete at higher levels, an they tend to need a lot of them.

Wizards, Sorcerers and (to a lesser extent) Druids and Clerics kind of get by without the need for magic items.

Yeah, I know, magic items support the game balance, that's why I asked for alternate rules that can support a game with magic items. Banning magic items with no substitute would jsut be cruel to the Fighter.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, I know I could do that, but apparently I'm super insane and want to run a mid-level adventure with monster PCs and the like. It'd keep the tiny group of players that I have so far intrested in the GMPCs I use to fill in the group, that's for sure. Ah, seriously though I'll give some thought to thing E6 business. At this rate, with all these variant rules, I'll probably have to make a little month long project to make my own sourcebook detailing these things for my players. Probably colour coded with pretty pictures, since my kid sister is teh most retarded 'genius' to have ever lived...

DMPCs...banning magic items...high magic spells.

I don't really see how one of these is solving the other problem. You can have an interesting campaign at any level. Likewise, if your players are uninterested in your DMPCs, then changing the level at which you play will not change that.

[TheMinxTail]

DMPCs...banning magic items...high magic spells.

I don't really see how one of these is solving the other problem. You can have an interesting campaign at any level. Likewise, if your players are uninterested in your DMPCs, then changing the level at which you play will not change that.

I don't much care that they don't have a lot of intrest in the DMPCs - the campaign should be about them after all, right? It's just that to lend them a hand, I have to give them extra characters, who while out of combat are DMPCs, when in combat have their control shared around by the players. If they're their anyway, I might as well make them intresting as personailities and in mechanics. For example, as I planned on doing, having a couple of civilsed monsters plucked out of the old MM, including a Lamia and an Ettin's combat stats compiled with some story about a Dr. Insano-like mage who sewed a bunch of lfe forms together to see what would happen. Anyway, the high level magic would mostly be in the hands of the only character that I as the DM would have proper control over (when I say our group is small, I mean small - three people including me) and a few other DMPCs, and I've actually got a pretty good grip onm the magic system. Long story short, I think I could make it work for a few sessions, at least to give my players a taste of a play style that we could have when we get more experience as gamers, so I think I'll get something out of it even if it does fall apart due to my bumbling incompetence.

[Tyndmyr]

Either you have way, way too many DMPCs, or you're using the wrong term. Typically, NPC is the usual label for your run-of-the-mill non player character.

DMPC is reserved for a character you play that is part of the party. It's usually derogatory.

However, DMPCs or no, level is mostly unrelated to if your characters are interesting in mechanics and personality. If you are relatively new to DMing, it's MUCH easier to start at a low level, and have less complicated characters. This will save you vastly more difficulty than trying to get rid of magic items will.

[Superglucose]

Just be wary what you're doing.

+1

Be VERY wary. If you think you're fixing power problems by limiting magic items, you're wrong. All you're doing is making the fighter cry, because either the Wizard/Cleric of the party takes three rounds to buff the fighter to make him effective or ends the encounter in one round.

"No/low magic items" is, imo, the #1 mistake of new GMs. The game is balanced (loosely speaking) to that Wealth By Level table, and the idea of the designers is that at CL 15 (for example) you're wielding some form of +3 flaming Greatsword and wearing +2 Fullplate of Light Fortification at the minimum, with a handful of useful items on the side (wings of flying, amulet of strength +6).

If you're concerned about characters abusing their magic items, 1) if they're new don't worry about that, and 2) if it's really that scary, just give them the items instead of the money and make it a "no magic mart" game. Use the Vow of Poverty progression as a general guideline for what kind of items you should give them, and WBL tables in the DMG for how many and you're set.

[Greenish]

Anyway, the high level magic would mostly be in the hands of the only character that I as the DM would have proper control over (when I say our group is small, I mean small - three people including me) and a few other DMPCsI don't know about your players, but I would be a bit miffed if I saw an NPC toss around shiny spells knowing that I'll never have an access to them. If I travelled with several DMPCs who can toss around shiny spells that I can't access, well, I would be even less happy.

That said, two-player group could recruit a few run-of-the-mill NPCs for flanking buddies or something, or buy war dogs. Or you could just try to tune the encounters such that they don't need much help.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't know about your players, but I would be a bit miffed if I saw an NPC toss around shiny spells knowing that I'll never have an access to them. If I travelled with several DMPCs who can toss around shiny spells that I can't access, well, I would be even less happy.

Yeah, this is a very bad theme. Especially when you're denying access to relatively normal magical items.

[TheMinxTail]

Either you have way, way too many DMPCs, or you're using the wrong term. Typically, NPC is the usual label for your run-of-the-mill non player character.

DMPC is reserved for a character you play that is part of the party. It's usually derogatory.

However, DMPCs or no, level is mostly unrelated to if your characters are interesting in mechanics and personality. If you are relatively new to DMing, it's MUCH easier to start at a low level, and have less complicated characters. This will save you vastly more difficulty than trying to get rid of magic items will.

Yeah, I know its easy to start at early levels, but my guys have like the shortest attention spans ever. Okay, that's not fair, but as a good example we've only done two sessions in my latest campaign attempt and its been a month since then since my third player is always busy these days with tests and such, leaving me to stew with a bunch of new ideas and they completely get off page from last session in that time. I figure that if I run them through teh motions at a higher level tehy might be more motivated next time even if this campaign doesn't go taht well to try and shwo more dedication - keeping in mind that taht could be their new wizard that gets to teleport onto and tapdance on the evil emperor's head before laying waste to his castle with a well placed fireball one day. I know what I mean by DMPC - but for these purposes it basically refers to teh party members whose perspectives are not those of my little gaming team in the narrative - i.e. each of my players, unless they ask me to do things otherwise, outside of combat where I couldn't run everyone without boring them to death as they waited for their initiative, would only refer to one character apiece with the term 'I do this'. And yeah, I know the problem with DMPCs, but hopefully when I pick up two or so new players at some point I can just hand them their normal party roles.

[TheMinxTail]

+1

Be VERY wary. If you think you're fixing power problems by limiting magic items, you're wrong. All you're doing is making the fighter cry, because either the Wizard/Cleric of the party takes three rounds to buff the fighter to make him effective or ends the encounter in one round.

"No/low magic items" is, imo, the #1 mistake of new GMs. The game is balanced (loosely speaking) to that Wealth By Level table, and the idea of the designers is that at CL 15 (for example) you're wielding some form of +3 flaming Greatsword and wearing +2 Fullplate of Light Fortification at the minimum, with a handful of useful items on the side (wings of flying, amulet of strength +6).

If you're concerned about characters abusing their magic items, 1) if they're new don't worry about that, and 2) if it's really that scary, just give them the items instead of the money and make it a "no magic mart" game. Use the Vow of Poverty progression as a general guideline for what kind of items you should give them, and WBL tables in the DMG for how many and you're set.

Thanks for teh concern and whatnot, but as I've said a few times, I'm actually looking for things to substitute for magic items (the Vow of Poverty BoED being the given example) precisely to PREVENT that little doomsday scenario of the fighter being unuseful. Its just that magic items, at least for now, overload my brain capacity since my PCs are barely housetrained - at least in terms of D&D skill.

[TheMinxTail]

Yeah, this is a very bad theme. Especially when you're denying access to relatively normal magical items.

Actually, believe it or not, my guys aren't taht intrested in magic. I have one guy that fits pretty cleanly into a good archetype for playing a Paladin, as he has done in every game so far (if he actually got to a high enough level to spellcast, I'd porbably use the no-spellcasting variant from Complete Warrior or something or at least chose for myself his spell list), and the other is one of those looney types of characters who wants nothing more than to use nigh-epic bluff checks to convince others of her friendliness as she stabs them in the face. If either of them did have much intrest in magic, I would take steps to make sure it was easy for them to use, but hey, isn't it the most basic responsibility of the DM to make sure the players are playing the game the way that they want to?

[TheMinxTail]

I don't know about your players, but I would be a bit miffed if I saw an NPC toss around shiny spells knowing that I'll never have an access to them. If I travelled with several DMPCs who can toss around shiny spells that I can't access, well, I would be even less happy.

That said, two-player group could recruit a few run-of-the-mill NPCs for flanking buddies or something, or buy war dogs. Or you could just try to tune the encounters such that they don't need much help.

Yeah, you could do that with a NORMAL group. But my friends don't know much about stats and instead just looked over my shoulder as I flicked through teh monster manual and say 'I wanna fight some of those things and taht one and maybe a couple of those tall guys with tentacles on their face' (of course I wouldn't actually throw full blown mind flayers at a bunch of low levels - most DMs are hardly so cruel). And I usually improviose the terrain. So until I gain some expertise with arranging encounters, DMPCs it is.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, I know its easy to start at early levels, but my guys have like the shortest attention spans ever. Okay, that's not fair, but as a good example we've only done two sessions in my latest campaign attempt and its been a month since then since my third player is always busy these days with tests and such, leaving me to stew with a bunch of new ideas and they completely get off page from last session in that time.

Higher level play tends to be more complex, and character sheets have a lot more stuff to keep track of. I would not advise increasing level as a cure for a short attention span.

Instead, look into changing the play style, and incorporating a wider variety of stuff, or ways of speeding up the pace of the game. Also, I suggest banning othering shiny toys at the gaming table if this is a problem. Shiny toy syndrome is terrible for the ADD types.

Oddly enough, magic items are one way to get players interested...and I don't mean flat stat-buff types either. Things with unusual or interesting effects tend to bring up "what can I do with this?" thinking, which gets players engaged in the game. For example, an immovable rod, sovereign glue, or a decanter of endless water are all awesome items that will likely give your players creative things to play with.


I figure that if I run them through teh motions at a higher level tehy might be more motivated next time even if this campaign doesn't go taht well to try and shwo more dedication - keeping in mind that taht could be their new wizard that gets to teleport onto and tapdance on the evil emperor's head before laying waste to his castle with a well placed fireball one day. I know what I mean by DMPC - but for these purposes it basically refers to teh party members whose perspectives are not those of my little gaming team in the narrative - i.e. each of my players, unless they ask me to do things otherwise, outside of combat where I couldn't run everyone without boring them to death as they waited for their initiative, would only refer to one character apiece with the term 'I do this'. And yeah, I know the problem with DMPCs, but hopefully when I pick up two or so new players at some point I can just hand them their normal party roles.

Showing them how awesome your high level DMPC casters are will not motivate them in the way you desire. It's more likely to bore them.

Also, as a DM(especially a new one), you have a fair amount of prep work and stuff to keep track of. Adding multiple characters to this only adds to this load. It increases the amount of time at the table taken up by you, and means you're spreading your available prep time thinner. Replacing magic items with houserules will not solve this.

Drop the DMPCs, keep the level from being terribly high. You don't need to start at level 1, but anything over about 5 is probably too high at first. Don't worry about learning every magic item under the sun...just learn what your players buy, and add one or two items that interest you to what the bad guys use.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, believe it or not, my guys aren't taht intrested in magic.

Then don't bother banning magical toys or trying to get them into caster classes. If they want to play a guy that smashes and cuts evil stuff...nothing wrong with that. You don't need to go to any great lengths to do so.

I reccomend you check out the 3.5 SRD for a free resource that gives you monsters by CR. It'll give you plenty of fun, evil monsters at whatever level you choose to play at.

[Volkov]

Do you want to do the same to magic in general or not? Because without magic items, the divide in power will grow, casters are less dependent on magical items than noncasters. Sure they won't get that fancy +6 headband of intellect anymore, they can just use permanency on fox's cunning to get 2/3rds of the effect.

[herrhauptmann]

Doing a mid level campaign with low magic, you'll have to restrict some of the enemies the party faces.
CR is based on the party being near a baseline strength. Wealth (and magic items) is a portion of your strength, and for melee characters, it's the majority of your strength.

If your party has no casters cuz they don't want to play casters (which is a preference) fine, but they'll have a harder time against certain monsters.
If your party has fewer magical items, they're going to have a hard time against MOST mid-high CR creatures. DR 15/good or silver is a lot rougher if they can't buff. Especially if they seem to be unoptimized, simple builds. 15 might be their average damage per hit. Which means you've just nerfed them except for crits.


So you're building their characters? Do they give you a character idea, and you build it for them? Or do you come up with everything on your own? You're doing ALL the work, and they're not investing any time in understanding how the character is built/made. Maybe you guys should pick a simpler game, or one where a computer does most of the work. Baldurs Gate on the PS2 for instance.

[Volkov]

Doing a mid level campaign with low magic, you'll have to restrict some of the enemies the party faces.
CR is based on the party being near a baseline strength. Wealth (and magic items) is a portion of your strength, and for melee characters, it's the majority of your strength.

If your party has no casters cuz they don't want to play casters (which is a preference) fine, but they'll have a harder time against certain monsters.
If your party has fewer magical items, they're going to have a hard time against MOST mid-high CR creatures. DR 15/good or silver is a lot rougher if they can't buff. Especially if they seem to be unoptimized, simple builds. 15 might be their average damage per hit. Which means you've just nerfed them except for crits.


So you're building their characters? Do they give you a character idea, and you build it for them? Or do you come up with everything on your own? You're doing ALL the work, and they're not investing any time in understanding how the character is built/made. Maybe you guys should pick a simpler game, or one where a computer does most of the work. Baldurs Gate on the PS2 for instance.

Baldur's gate I and II are for the PC (which is an infinitely superior gaming platform for any genre outside of pen and paper roleplaying, where it suffers in the role playing aspect), Dark alliance was for the consoles.

[herrhauptmann]

Baldur's gate I and II are for the PC (which is an infinitely superior gaming platform for any genre outside of pen and paper roleplaying, where it suffers in the role playing aspect), Dark alliance was for the consoles.
Coulda sworn the PS2 game was "Baldurs Gate: Subtitle"

[TheMinxTail]

Higher level play tends to be more complex, and character sheets have a lot more stuff to keep track of. I would not advise increasing level as a cure for a short attention span.

Instead, look into changing the play style, and incorporating a wider variety of stuff, or ways of speeding up the pace of the game. Also, I suggest banning othering shiny toys at the gaming table if this is a problem. Shiny toy syndrome is terrible for the ADD types.

Oddly enough, magic items are one way to get players interested...and I don't mean flat stat-buff types either. Things with unusual or interesting effects tend to bring up "what can I do with this?" thinking, which gets players engaged in the game. For example, an immovable rod, sovereign glue, or a decanter of endless water are all awesome items that will likely give your players creative things to play with.



Showing them how awesome your high level DMPC casters are will not motivate them in the way you desire. It's more likely to bore them.

Also, as a DM(especially a new one), you have a fair amount of prep work and stuff to keep track of. Adding multiple characters to this only adds to this load. It increases the amount of time at the table taken up by you, and means you're spreading your available prep time thinner. Replacing magic items with houserules will not solve this.

Drop the DMPCs, keep the level from being terribly high. You don't need to start at level 1, but anything over about 5 is probably too high at first. Don't worry about learning every magic item under the sun...just learn what your players buy, and add one or two items that interest you to what the bad guys use.

Oh, I might have given the impression that the DMPCs were the only one of their power level. The characters they control would be just as flashy. Anyway, yeah I know you're right, prep work is important... I haven't implemented any of these techniques yet anyway, so don't worry about me wreaking misfortune and misery among my players - not until the weekend that is. I suppose the real reason I wanted to try a higher level is because I thought of a great idea for a story - or at least a few rough ideas I figured would make an intresting adventure, and lower levels wouldn't have a fantasy level of power capable of fitting the narrative.

[TheMinxTail]

Coulda sworn the PS2 game was "Baldurs Gate: Subtitle"

I think I saw some Forbidden Realms games in a bargain bin. Anyway, I don't want to automate since I want to control my own stories more - I mean, you can programme a game with the expertise, but you can't automate wininging it, which is what I do half the time anyway when my sister seems to go out of her way to derail what little of the evening's game was planned out. Anyway, as I've said a few times, the original purpose of this thread was to find a substitute for magic items that didn't make a trainwreck of the melee fighters (Innate Magic Items, Vow of Poverty, and the like) so that if I decide taht I feel liek jumping in to a mid level campaign I don't have to spend hours looking those damn things up then the whole session juggling them in my head with everything else. As for my running every aspect of the game, yeah it sucks, but my guys are getting better and I try and get them to make their own characters whenever we start a new mini-campaign. At some point, they'll probably earn enough competency to make and run their own characters, I'm just supporting them to that point in time.

[Volkov]

Coulda sworn the PS2 game was "Baldurs Gate: Subtitle"

It was Dark alliance, it was to baldur's gate as metroid prime was to the metroid series, except not as able to compare with the original series as metroid prime was with the 2d metroid games.