[4e] Divine Boons and Deva Reincarnation

[LibraryOgre]

So, last night, I'm working on a new character, one I hope to keep for a while (because I have been a character sheet revolving door). I'm 13th level, which means a LOT of cash, and when I had most of what I wanted, I found divine boons.

And proceeded to purchase a goodly number of them. Like most of the 3rd level ones, not including the one for the deity of my Avenger ('cause a bonus to opportunity attacks pretty well sucks for Mr. "I have wisdom, intelligence, and little else").

Now, my DM has limited me to one, and I'm not gonna argue it; his table, his rules. However, I got thinking about it, and the concept behind Devas, who are perpetually reincarnating.

If a god liked you enough to give you a boon, would it matter that you're on your 17th reincarnation?

[Tiki Snakes]

On a spiritual level a Deva does, infact, reincarnate. But in a very real way, it's not the same person. So, basically, I'd be suprised if such things would carry over.

Though if your Deva did attract a boon from a god in a past incarnation, it would likely mean they have some generally positive opinion of you still, and could well be watching in case you become useful.

Basically, good RP and Plot hook fodder, but unlikely IMO to be a possible source of extra boons at Character-gen.

[LibraryOgre]

On a spiritual level a Deva does, infact, reincarnate. But in a very real way, it's not the same person. So, basically, I'd be suprised if such things would carry over.

Though if your Deva did attract a boon from a god in a past incarnation, it would likely mean they have some generally positive opinion of you still, and could well be watching in case you become useful.

Basically, good RP and Plot hook fodder, but unlikely IMO to be a possible source of extra boons at Character-gen.

Oh, I certainly wouldn't argue for FREE boons... everything's paid for... but it is a rationale for multiple.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I would say this: a boon can easily be seen as a divine gift given to grant power for a specific purpose. A Deva can either be seen as being reincarnated with a different purpose each time, or else as being reincarnated for the same purpose.

If the purpose is different, the previous boon should not carry over. If the purpose is the same, then the previous boon should still be sufficient, unless the Deva's deity deems them to require another boon for the purpose.

Finally: the DM said so. If his reason isn't story-based, no fluff explanation will convince him.

[LibraryOgre]

Finally: the DM said so. If his reason isn't story-based, no fluff explanation will convince him.

I want to be clear on this: I'm not asking to convince him. I'll argue a bit before the game, but not hard; his table, his rules. If he HAPPENS to be convinced by the discussion, I won't argue... but I don't argue rulings, and seldom argue rules.

[Yakk]

First, by default RAW, divine boons are 'owned' by the DM. DMs choose to give them out as quest rewards, unlike magic items which players can be presumed to purchase (by default).

Second, by default RAW, (world-as-written? game-as-written? These aren't rules -- they are sort of meta-rules... hmm), boons go away after ~5 levels on their own. Given that boons leave PCs in one incarnation, I'd expect them to be unlikely to stick around for multiple lifetimes.

[Hzurr]

Hi. I'm the DM! (sometimes refered to as "Dreamcrusher," since the "no oversized weapons" ruling.)

I had a few reasons for saying "nope" to having 7 divine boons.

1) The PC is an Avenger, someone who enforces the will of his god, but somehow manages to have a divine boon from every god except the one he worships?

2) Divine boons aren't something that are simply bought, but something that is given from a god in repayment for a service. There's a good chance that the PC's quest will earn them brownie points from Ioun, so I have no problem having the PC choose to receive a divine boon then in lieu of more gold or magic items, but to just start off with 7 without any real justification or backstory?

3) What Yakk said:

First, by default RAW, divine boons are 'owned' by the DM. DMs choose to give them out as quest rewards, unlike magic items which players can be presumed to purchase (by default).

Second, by default RAW, (world-as-written? game-as-written? These aren't rules -- they are sort of meta-rules... hmm), boons go away after ~5 levels on their own. Given that boons leave PCs in one incarnation, I'd expect them to be unlikely to stick around for multiple lifetimes.

So...yes, that was my rational for nixing the build. But if these can be addressed, then I have no problem with it.

[Yakk]

Oh, and the balance reason why divine boons are in the hands of the DM:

They are slot-less, no-need-to-equip, magic items. And often they are useful for more than 5 to 10 levels after you can get them.

I mean, they almost all have decent properties -- from mere item bonuses to skills, all the way up to "use an at-will power as an encounter power"!

[Kurald Galain]

1) The PC is an Avenger, someone who enforces the will of his god, but somehow manages to have a divine boon from every god except the one he worships?
Yeah, I would veto for that as well. I would also veto having boons from conflicting deities.

But it's fluff veto, of course. For all intents and purposes, boons are simply the same as magical items. They have the same levels, same price, and same usage, and most of them aren't particularly powerful either. IIRC you simply have a "boon slot" just like you have a "feet slot" and a "tattoo slot".

[Yakk]

Yeah, I would veto for that as well. I would also veto having boons from conflicting deities.

But it's fluff veto, of course. For all intents and purposes, boons are simply the same as magical items. They have the same levels, same price, and same usage, and most of them aren't particularly powerful either. IIRC you simply have a "boon slot" just like you have a "feet slot" and a "tattoo slot".
Yes, they have prices. These prices are intended to roughly balance the difference in other resources you should give the party, not as a price the PC can pay for them.

No, you don't have a 'boon slot'. The boons are intended, as written in the DMG2, to be bonuses you throw at players based off of plot based considerations that are not tied to items. They are supposed to fade after a handful of levels.

Unlike magic items, which are intended to be manufactured and purchased and sold by PCs, boons are not. This also reflects the fact that magic items exist in PHBs and player usable supplements (adventurers vault, for example).

They use some of the same balancing system -- they are not, however, interchangable with magic items.

Magic items are written up to be mostly self balancing. Slotted magic items cost you the slot, and unslotted magic items are (generally, when they didn't screw up) designed to be useless more than a few levels after you get them (to "decay" in quality) by doing things like have fixed attack bonuses etc.

Boons do not have this property.

[Colmarr]

a bonus to opportunity attacks pretty well sucks for Mr. "I have wisdom, intelligence, and little else").

Melee training (wisdom)?

[LibraryOgre]

Melee training (wisdom)?

It all comes down to how many feats you can afford to spend.

[Colmarr]

It all comes down to how many feats you can afford to spend.

True. True. Just thought I'd mention it on the off chance that you didn't know about it and were interested in increasing your MBA options :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, they have prices. These prices are intended to roughly balance the difference in other resources you should give the party, not as a price the PC can pay for them.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Still, the way it's written, any player that reads the DMG2 is likely to ask his DM if he can buy an Xth level boon instead of an Xth level item.

The difference between a boon and an item is just fluff. There is no power discrepancy and no rules discrepancy, other than that boons are unslotted (which is no big deal given the christmas tree effect). So if a player would like to have to convert an item to a boon or vice versa, or take a handful of boons instead of items at character generation, then that won't be unbalanced. If balance is the concern, then there are a few powerful items to watch out for, but boons aren't on that list.

Of course, if fluff is the concern, then no, you can't buy boons except from the God of Greed.

[Colmarr]

Of course, if fluff is the concern, then no, you can't buy boons except from the God of Greed.

Didn't some adventurers kill her (and ironically take her stuff) recently?

[Kurald Galain]

Didn't some adventurers kill her (and ironically take her stuff) recently?
Wasn't T$R the god of greed? :smalltongue:

Hm, I'm not sure who you refer to, but I recommend against googling for a goddess of greed. :smallredface:

[Colmarr]

Hm, I'm not sure who you refer to, but I recommend against googling for a goddess of greed. :smallredface:

I'm referring to Tiamat, and to the latest (and last) adventure in the Scales of War adventure path.

Incidentally, I fell for your reverse psychology (knowing full well the horrors that awaited me) but surprisingly googling "goddess of greed" was suprisingly non-painful. :smallcool:

[Yakk]

The difference between a boon and an item is just fluff. There is no power discrepancy and no rules discrepancy, other than that boons are unslotted (which is no big deal given the christmas tree effect). So if a player would like to have to convert an item to a boon or vice versa, or take a handful of boons instead of items at character generation, then that won't be unbalanced. If balance is the concern, then there are a few powerful items to watch out for, but boons aren't on that list.
No, the unslotted nature of boons, and how they are written, makes it a big deal.

For 680 gp you get to use an arcane at-will as an encounter power. There is no opportunity cost for this ability -- zilch.

That happens to be the best one, but the other ones remain pretty damn good. A +2 to 5 item bonus to a myriad of skills that, once again, only have the tiny 680 gp opportunity cost?

At or around level 3, that 680 gp is expensive. By level 9, it is starting to look cheap. By level 14, it is dirt cheap. By level 19, you wouldn't even notice buying them, because they cost less than 1% of the expected 'cash to buy magic items' each.

They have decent properties, and they don't take up a slot. Players have already noticed that daily magic item uses are less useful than properties on equipped items: but you have a limited number of them (hands, arms, waist, feet, head are the ones you can afford to 'just dabble' in), and each purchase means you cannot get another item for that slot that you keep equipped.

We can see, in fact, exactly what happens when players are free to buy them willy-nilly: someone starting a paragon tier buys up an assload of them, because they are ridiculously good return on equity.

They are in the DMG for a reason. No attempt was made, unlike other slotless items, to balance them for being slotless.

Yes, players who read the DMG (or who use the character builder) might be tempted to ask "can I have a chirstmas tree of boons".

The answer should be "no", and at best "you can a buy boon within 4 levels of your character, and they go away when you hit 5 levels above the boon". And even that gets questionable.

Yes, they exist in the same mechanical space as magic items. No, they are not balanced like magic items. Magic items are (intended) to be something that if a player goes and buys a (level appropriate total) of gp worth of them, cheese is mitigated. Boons where not designed that way.

[Kurald Galain]

For 680 gp you get to use an arcane at-will as an encounter power. There is no opportunity cost for this ability -- zilch.
You can also do that with a Master Wand (680 gp) and the Disembodied Hand feat. Turns out there aren't actually all that many class combinations for which this is a powerful choice.


A +2 to 5 item bonus to a myriad of skills that, once again, only have the tiny 680 gp opportunity cost?
Okay, a +5 item bonus would be worthwhile. A +2, meh. Plenty of items give you a few skill bonuses here and there, and they don't stack. I find it funny that a Boon would grant an Item bonus, though.



At or around level 3, that 680 gp is expensive. By level 9, it is starting to look cheap. By level 14, it is dirt cheap.
That is true. But the question is, would a level-19 character become overpowered if he got +2 to all his skills? I don't think he would.


Magic items are (intended) to be something that if a player goes and buys a (level appropriate total) of gp worth of them, cheese is mitigated. Boons where not designed that way.
I agree with the intent. However, my point is that, considering how item design fails at this intent, it's not a big deal that boons lack this intent.

[Yakk]

First, you have to give up a feat (a resource that is more than, say, 1% of your petty cash) to pull off the same trick.

Yes, items grant item bonuses. But they take up slots. These don't. And they have trivial costs, even at levels where the bonus is decent. Plenty of items give item bonuses (and the reason why boons give item bonuses is that they are intended as alternative to item rewards, thus live in the same design space), but they must be equipped to grant the bonus, and (as I mentioned before) you only have a few slots.

I'll repeat: they have trivial costs, even after the point where they are quite useful.

Second, bags of Master's Wands are almost as cheesy as buying up a bunch of boons.

Third, dual implement spellcaster.

Forth, this isn't the level of cheese that will horribly break the game.

Fifth, /bye thread!

[LibraryOgre]

They are in the DMG for a reason. No attempt was made, unlike other slotless items, to balance them for being slotless.

Yes, players who read the DMG (or who use the character builder) might be tempted to ask "can I have a chirstmas tree of boons".


Heck, I saw them in the DMG after the fact... before that, I was just cruising the Character Creator.