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View Full Version : 3.5 Feat: Prepare Known Spells as Invocations - PEACH



Barbarian MD
2010-02-25, 03:49 PM
Versatile Invoker

Prerequisites: ability to cast 2nd-level spells and lesser invocations.

Benefit: Permanently sacrifice one Invocation known. Each time you recover your spells, you may prepare any one spell in its place, according to the table below. You must be able to cast this spell normally. You may take this feat multiple times.

{table]Invocation Sacrificed|Level of Spell
Least|1
Lesser|1-2
Greater|1-3
Dark|1-4[/table]

Special: You may choose to prepare a higher level spell slot as an invocation than that indicated on the table. You may prepare a spell that affects only you that is two levels higher than the limit imposed by the above table. The spell itself need not be a personal spell, but as an invocation it will affect only you, regardless of the wording of the spell.


Examples: Morthos the Warlock/Cleric can cast Dark Invocations and 6th-level spells. He has sacrificed one of his Dark Invocations in order to prepare a divine spell in its place. Today, when he prepares his spells, he prays to his deity to allow him to Invoke Magic Weapon, Greater. He may now use this spell as an invocation throughout the day, blessing anyone with the effects of the spell as a standard action.

Morthos the Warlock/Cleric can cast Greater Invocations and 5th-level spells. He has sacrified one of his Greater Invocations in order to prepare a divine spell in its place. Today, instead of preparing an offensive spell, he instead prepares True Seeing as a Greater Invocation. He would normally only be able to prepare up to a 4th-level spell in the place of a Greater Invocation. However, he is specially preparing this 5th-level spell for himself, and now has a form of True Seeing that will only work for himself.


***************************
(This may well be overpowered. There are so many spells out there that I'm sure I've missed something that would be ridiculous as an at-will all day. If this needs to be nerfed, so that you can only prepare one spell permanently in the place of an invocation, rather than having the flexibility to change it each day, it'd probably be best to just homebrew it as an invocation, rather than requiring a feat tax.)

Forever Curious
2010-02-25, 03:56 PM
(This may well be overpowered. There are so many spells out there that I'm sure I've missed something that would be ridiculous as an at-will all day. If this needs to be nerfed, so that you can only prepare one spell permanently in the place of an invocation, rather than having the flexibility to change it each day, it'd probably be best to just homebrew it as an invocation, rather than requiring a feat tax.)

Yeah, I'd say. At will spells!?

Then again, you need pretty high levels of both for it to get REALLY crazy, but still.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-25, 04:21 PM
The problem is that some of the lowest level spells get absolutely broken when taken as invocations.

Sac a Dark Invocation for at-will Divine Power? Ouch.

Sac a Least Invocation for Lesser Vigor at-will for unlimited out of combat healing? Even worse

Hell, sac a Dark for Orb of Sound. You've got an at-will RTA which makes your EB look like a popgun, naturally ignores SR, and bypasses most defenses anyways

Or even worse, Polymorph as an at-will Invocation...

Barbarian MD
2010-02-25, 04:35 PM
So you're saying that...

A) It would need a comprehensive list of approved spells to not be broken

or

B) It's broken, regardless of any work on the mechanics


Would it work if it were limited to buffs only?

One minor point: unlimited out of combat healing already exists. It's a Reserve Feat called Touch of Healing.

Actually, another minor point: Divine Power is an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with your magic items. If you prepare it every day, you're saving yourself 36,000 gp for the cost of a feat and an invocation slot. That actually seems pretty weak, considering the level you'd be talking about to do it. But maybe that's just me.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-25, 04:38 PM
So you're saying that...

A) It would need a comprehensive list of approved spells to not be broken

or

B) It's broken, regardless of any work on the mechanics


Would it work if it were limited to buffs only?

One minor point: unlimited out of combat healing already exists. It's a Reserve Feat called Touch of Healing.

1. I like this.

2. Maybe limit it to Evil/Chaotic spells (Warlock and all), though there aren't a lot of them so I don't know how viable that is.

3. Is Touch of Healing from Complete Mage, or somewhere else. I don't recognise it.

Barbarian MD
2010-02-25, 04:40 PM
3. Is Touch of Healing from Complete Mage, or somewhere else. I don't recognise it.

Complete Champion: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Touch_Of_Healing

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-25, 04:42 PM
Complete Champion: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Touch_Of_Healing

Thanks. Nabbed.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-25, 04:44 PM
The problem with Touch of Healing is:


The effect ends once you've healed the subject up to half its normal maximum hit points. This ability has no effect on creatures that can't be healed by cure spells.

You can't heal up to more than 1/2 total HP that way. Lesser Vigor? Tops off the tank every time.

I think this *could* be done, but I think it would have to have a fairly restrictive spell list, and could likely be better done by taking a few non-broken type spells and making them Invocations. For example:

Otherworldly Reach
Can use Prestidigitation and Mage Hand at will

That's not broken, but it is useful. It's a decent invocation.

However, whenever you give people a 'blank check', they tend to exploit it

Xefas
2010-02-25, 04:47 PM
I don't believe this is all that powerful.

At lowest level you can use this is technically 7th. A Warlock 6/Full Caster 1 with Precocious Apprentice could get it, but you don't get a feat at 7th, so in practice, the lowest level would be 9th.

And at 9th level? Free out of combat healing? So? At that level you can already get more out of combat healing than you'll ever need on the cheap. And you're basically sacrificing being a Full Caster 9 to be a Slightly Gimped Warlock 6/Full Caster 3, which is a hefty trade.

Stuff like Polymorph, Divine Power, and True Seeing can't come into play until level 18-20. And at that point, it's not very impressive. A Warlock 11/Full Caster 7, for instance, could Polymorph himself at will. And then a Full Caster 18 just uses Polymorph Any Object to permanently Polymorph himself into something even better, but didn't have to spend a feat or lose a class feature, or take all those Warlock levels to do it. And then he Polymorph Any Objects his familiar permanently into something even better. And then everyone else in the party the next day. And still has his spell slots after that.

In short, it's interesting, but I wouldn't worry about it being overpowered.

Barbarian MD
2010-02-25, 04:49 PM
So, throw out the numbers game, and instead turn it into a comprehensive list of spells that work with this feat?

Barbarian MD
2010-02-25, 04:54 PM
I don't believe this is all that powerful.

Two Words: Eldritch Disciple

1. Cleric 1
2. Cleric 2
3. Cleric 3
4. Warlock 1
5. Eldritch Disciple 1 (+1 Invoking Class)
6. Eldritch Disciple 2 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
7. Eldritch Disciple 3 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
8. Eldritch Disciple 4 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
9. Eldritch Disciple 5 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
10. Eldritch Disciple 6 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
11. Eldritch Disciple 7 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
12. Eldritch Disciple 8 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
13. Eldritch Disciple 9 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
14. Eldritch Disciple 10 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
15. Warlock 2
16. Warlock 3
17. Warlock 4
18. Warlock 5
19. Warlock 6 (Dark Invocations)
20. Cleric 4 (7th-level spells)

Actually, I guess that isn't that bad, looking at what you'd be able to pull off in the end compared to a level 20 cleric...

But, I do have one other word: Gestalt.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-25, 04:55 PM
So, throw out the numbers game, and instead turn it into a comprehensive list of spells that work with this feat?

By giving people a flat 'sac x for a y spell', you are opening things up to rampant abuse. Alternate sources, different lists (Heal as a 4th level spell off someone or another's list, for example)... look at some of the Artificer or Archivist cheese, this is what happens when you give people a blank check.

Take spells which you feel would make good invocations, and make them viable options for invocations.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-25, 04:58 PM
Two Words: Eldritch Disciple

1. Cleric 1
2. Cleric 2
3. Cleric 3
4. Warlock 1
5. Eldritch Disciple 1 (+1 Invoking Class)
6. Eldritch Disciple 2 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
7. Eldritch Disciple 3 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
8. Eldritch Disciple 4 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
9. Eldritch Disciple 5 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
10. Eldritch Disciple 6 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
11. Eldritch Disciple 7 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
12. Eldritch Disciple 8 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
13. Eldritch Disciple 9 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
14. Eldritch Disciple 10 (+1 Invoking Class, +1 Divine Class)
15. Warlock 2
16. Warlock 3
17. Warlock 4
18. Warlock 5
19. Warlock 6 (Dark Invocations)
20. Cleric 4 (7th-level spells)

Actually, I guess that isn't that bad, looking at what you'd be able to pull off in the end compared to a level 20 cleric...

But, I do have one other word: Gestalt.

Never worry about Gestalt unless that's its actual aim. Chaos ensues otherwise.

Xefas
2010-02-25, 05:01 PM
Two Words: Eldritch Disciple

Ah, okay, you got me. I was wrong.

So...maybe compare to Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell? If you consider that overpowered, then you could probably consider this feat overpowered.

I know they're not exactly the same, but I feel they're in the same ballpark.

Barbarian MD
2010-02-25, 05:01 PM
Never worry about Gestalt unless that's its actual aim. Chaos ensues otherwise.

Probably good advice.

((However, I'm about to play a gestalt Cleric//Warlock in a campaign I'm in... :smallwink: So it has to not be broken with gestalt, on top of not being broken normally.))