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Frosty
2010-02-25, 06:24 PM
So I'm DMing a campaign where my 4 PCs are infiltrating the Nine Hells. We've had one combat already, and one of the PCs spend the entire combat doing nothing but running away because he has a Will save of +3 (gogo Fear Auras). Given the nature of this campaign, how do I keep the character useful in combat but not completely negate the fact that he has only a +3 Will save at level 14? Devils aren't just going ignore their fear auras or their Dominates or Suggestions, but I don't want to make the character useless either. Any advice?

jguy
2010-02-25, 06:25 PM
Can no one cast Protection from Evil at all?

PersonMan
2010-02-25, 06:28 PM
Can no one cast Protection from Evil at all?

Seconded.

Also, how did he get a his modifier so low? The only thing I can imagine is if he was a bad Will save class and got himself a 4 or so in Wisdom.

Long-term: Iron Will should help if the save is that low.
Short-term: Owl's Wisdom nets you a +2, IIRC.

Koury
2010-02-25, 06:29 PM
Level 14 with +3 Will? Is that a function of an abysmal (get it? Nine hells?) Wisdom or lots of classes? If its the latter, fractional saves. Use them :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2010-02-25, 06:29 PM
PfE doesn't help against Fear effects or Suggestion does it? It will work against Dominate Person but Dominate's duration is...much longer than that of PfE.


Seconded.

Also, how did he get a his modifier so low? The only thing I can imagine is if he was a bad Will save class and got himself a 4 or so in Wisdom.

Long-term: Iron Will should help if the save is that low.
Short-term: Owl's Wisdom nets you a +2, IIRC.
I believe he has average or slightly below average wisdom but the Weak Will Flaw, and his classes are all Bad Will progression.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 06:30 PM
Multiclassing between low will classes would do it

PersonMan
2010-02-25, 06:37 PM
PfE doesn't help against Fear effects or Suggestion does it? It will work against Dominate Person but Dominate's duration is...much longer than that of PfE.


I believe he has average or slightly below average wisdom but the Weak Will Flaw, and his classes are all Bad Will progression.

I see. Well, you could make the PCs paranoid that way, having Devils cast SLAs on him, and then see what they do once PfE wears off...

Anyways, if there are buffers in the party, they could help. Anyways, you could let him do some things. If, say, a Devil Suggests that he stop his party from fighting, you could simply hand him a note telling him he needs to do so.

Alex112524
2010-02-25, 07:08 PM
Have him take Steadfast Determination? It's in PH2

Shades of Gray
2010-02-25, 07:09 PM
Use the fractional saves variant?

Ashiel
2010-02-25, 07:10 PM
If he's in the nine hells, he should likely have at least a cloak of resistance +2. A few wisdom buffs wouldn't hurt (owl's wisdom was wisely suggested). Iron Will is nice but maybe he can't use it.

Seriously though, the 1st level spell Remove Fear should be cast on the party pretty regularly at those levels; especially if fighting stuff with fear auras. I mean, honestly. :smalltongue:

Protection from Evil as noted previously prevents charms and compulsions from affecting him until the hour/level duration wears off; which is usually long enough that the charms have worn off first.

If there's a paladin in the party, he should be getting another +4 to saving throws against fear. Highly situational though.

Bless is another 1st level staple spell that should be cast regularly. It provides bonuses against fear, and a +1 to all attack rolls for your whole party.

Calm emotions works pretty decently too, but requires concentration and can kill your own buffs.

Some ideas. :smallsmile:

Frosty
2010-02-25, 07:15 PM
His con isn't that hot either, so Steadfast Determination won'thelp. His saves are +6, +18, +3. I fear for his life. Makes me wonder how he made it as a Hellbreaker in the past.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-25, 07:15 PM
I think it's called the standard of valor.
Pretty much a flag that you plant in the ground. Allies within range gain bonuses depending on which particular flag was planted.
edit:

His con isn't that hot either, so Steadfast Determination won'thelp. His saves are +6, +18, +3. I fear for his life. Makes me wonder how he made it as a Hellbreaker in the past.

Hellbreaker, that's the Fiendish codex PrC for rogues, isn't it? What's the fluff for the PrC?
Seriously though, maybe you should 'cheat' a little and plant a magic item within the loot, and give the party a free casting of identify so they can find out what it is real quick.

If he STILL doesn't take the item, well, you've tried helping him. At this point, it's his fault for not being smarter in character generation.

Ex: Had a level 15 fighter. Base saves (before items) F-23/R-3/W-16. Managed to get up to a 10 reflex, but that cost a bit of money in enchantments that stacked. (And was wasted money, levels 15-17, didn't need a single reflex save)

Lysander
2010-02-25, 07:23 PM
Take leadership, gain a paladin cohort and +4 vs fear.

Or become undead.

Frosty
2010-02-25, 07:24 PM
Yeah that's the PrC. They're chaotic types that raid devil treasure hordes...for fun or to disrupt them it's all good.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-25, 07:29 PM
If he survives to 15th level, the wizard could cast mind-blank on him.

Actually, you could make the focus of a min-adventure to get a greater metamagic rod of chaining (value 100,000gp+, from Complete Arcane). 3 times per day, you can chain (increase single person spell to 1 primary +1/caster level secondary targets, great for buffs) any level of spell. Thus, the entire party is continually mindblanked, and you have a logical reason for why a group of devils (with greater teleport at will) do not use scry and die tactics.

ericgrau
2010-02-25, 08:19 PM
Remove fear is a first level cleric / bard spell. It can even hit multiple targets. At higher levels a wizard or sorcerer can give him a mind blank. There's also dispels and a million other counters to suggest to the party. Probably a magic item I haven't thought of too.

Haven
2010-02-25, 08:25 PM
Personally, I think fractional will should be used for just this reason. It stops people from getting shafted for multiclassing, and conversely, prevents them from getting a ridiculous save by getting all those +2s through multi-classing.

Basically, treat the good progression as giving +1/2 to a save and the poor progression as giving +1/3 to a save (rounding down). They get an extra +2 to their good saves in the class they take at level 1 (treating that as a benefit like x4 skill points and max HP, in other words).

That ought to even out those saves to something a bit more balanced instead of the overloaded fortitude save.

Thrawn183
2010-02-25, 09:09 PM
Don't, if he's getting a great reflex save from multiclassing, he has to pay with a weak will save. If you want to boost his will save, make sure to do it in a way that knocks down his reflex save (as fractional saves probably would I guess)

Runestar
2010-02-25, 11:23 PM
Heroes' feast would grant fear immunity, and it should last long enough to see you through the day.

Frosty
2010-02-26, 12:34 AM
Hmm...Hero's Feast is a FANTASTIC idea. And he has only multiclassed once. Went from Rogue to Hellbreaker.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-26, 12:41 AM
What're his stats? And specific build breakdown.

Anyway, if he's got the flaw weak willed, then I'd say that both his fort AND will saves are too low. Without that flaw, his saves would be the same in both. And a 6 in either, he's got what, a 4 base, and a +2 cloak?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-26, 12:51 AM
Seriously, why did he not do SOMETHING to mitigate his poor Will save?

Have him dip two levels in Swordsage. Pick up the Diamond Mind maneuvers which replace Fort and Will save with a Concentration check, which can be boosted much easier. This should help him survive. Also, with things like Island of Blades, Assassin's Stance, and Pouncing Strike, it should significantly boost his damage output.

Nuke
2010-02-26, 01:23 AM
He's the one not worrying about his Will save, taking the weak willed flaw, not taking iron will or anything really to boost his saves.

I don't see why you should be the one worrying about it.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-02-26, 01:27 AM
So I'm DMing a campaign where my 4 PCs are infiltrating the Nine Hells. We've had one combat already, and one of the PCs spend the entire combat doing nothing but running away because he has a Will save of +3 (gogo Fear Auras). Given the nature of this campaign, how do I keep the character useful in combat but not completely negate the fact that he has only a +3 Will save at level 14? Devils aren't just going ignore their fear auras or their Dominates or Suggestions, but I don't want to make the character useless either. Any advice?

He should consider using ranged weapons. I hear a crossbow can hit from way beyond the fear aura.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-26, 01:46 AM
He's the one not worrying about his Will save, taking the weak willed flaw, not taking iron will or anything really to boost his saves.

I don't see why you should be the one worrying about it.

Taking a flaw, then turning around and taking a feat to negate the flaw is rather counterproductive, unless there's a feat which is 1st level only that you NEED. I can't really see a case where it's productive to get a 1st level feat by taking a flaw, then using up your 6th or 9th level feat recovering from the flaw. More likely to be taking a feat at that level which has prereqs.

He should really have taken noncombatant, the poor reflex one, or murky eyed. Unless there's a specific, story based reason for why he chose the flaw he did.

Runestar
2010-02-26, 01:50 AM
Hmm...Hero's Feast is a FANTASTIC idea. And he has only multiclassed once. Went from Rogue to Hellbreaker.

And it basically invalidates the point of fear auras on the party. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-26, 03:29 AM
He's the one not worrying about his Will save, taking the weak willed flaw, not taking iron will or anything really to boost his saves.

I don't see why you should be the one worrying about it.

And actually, I can see the GM going "Hey, you knew where you were going, you were the one who hosed your Will save, with no attempt to shore it up, and every attempt to dump it. It's your own darn fault you're running away every game. Maybe next time, don't min/max away a critical defense...

Deepblue706
2010-02-26, 03:44 AM
Remove Fear, Calm Emotions, Heroes' Feast, Heroism, Greater Heroism are all useful. Some of these can even come in potion form. The PC could spend resources having to accomodate his weakness, making it less of a problem and allowing for play, but not necessarily easy play as the PC has less to spend on other materials.

And even then, the character isn't invulnerable to fear effects.

Pluto
2010-02-26, 03:59 AM
Isn't Superior Resistance a level 6 spell?

And I wouldn't worry about it, so long as he will be able to make steps to rebuild a couple levels or to multiclass into somethig a bit more robust.

ericgrau
2010-02-26, 09:18 AM
Can no one cast Protection from Evil at all?
No effect on fear, only enchantments that grant ongoing control.


Heroes' feast would grant fear immunity, and it should last long enough to see you through the day.

Heroes' feast only gives a +1 bonus to saves vs. fear. Remove fear is still a first level spell btw :smalltongue:. Does the cleric seriously have a better use for his 1st level slots? It also provides a +4 to saves vs. fear if you cast it ahead of time instead of using it to remove fear. Greater heroism provides fear immunity. Dispel works against spell like abilities like devil fear. If you have a druid he can spontaneously summon a unicorn who can cast remove fear.

Gnaeus
2010-02-26, 09:23 AM
And actually, I can see the GM going "Hey, you knew where you were going, you were the one who hosed your Will save, with no attempt to shore it up, and every attempt to dump it. It's your own darn fault you're running away every game. Maybe next time, don't min/max away a critical defense...

Exactly this. He built his boat, let him learn to swim or drown.

Person_Man
2010-02-26, 09:28 AM
If he's Evil, he could always devote himself to an elder evil to get bonus Vile feats. Pick up Deformity (Madness) for immunity to Mind Effecting, and he's set.

Evard
2010-02-26, 09:33 AM
I vote for you as the DM not doing anything, the character was made that way and going into hell with a low will save is his own fault.

If you do anything it would be like modifying AC's of monsters just because a wizard wants to use a scythe in melee instead of spells. It really wouldn't be fair to the other players if you intervened in this way.

Ask the other players to vote on if they want you to do something about it... If they do then just have the player make a new character who is a prisoner in hell that they rescue to help them do what they are doing.

1stEd.Thief
2010-02-26, 09:39 AM
I agree with the "you built this leaky boat" posters.

I'd make it more fun than Fear effects though: The last campaign I was in the party unexpectedly met a Vampire and my character had a low Will save (Waaaayyy better than +3, though...)

Long story short: I knew the DM had a small, specially prepared deck of cards; however, my character failed his Will save against the Suggestion that I play a game of cards with the charming gentleman with the pale skin. The first and only time I ever drew from a Deck of Many Things.

JeenLeen
2010-02-26, 09:52 AM
Heroes' feast only gives a +1 bonus to saves vs. fear.

It gives a morale bonus of +1, IIRC, but gives blanket immunity to fear.

From Heroes of Battle, there is the Horn of Plenty. I don't know the WBL tables, so it might be pricey for a party at that level (12000 gp), but it creates a level 12 Hero's Feast 1/day.
Once my D&D team could afford them, we got two to stay immune to fear all the time. (We did have a 'magic-mart' type economy in the game, though.) This does overall negate the fear auras, though, which I see is not what you want.

Buffs and casting of Hero's Feast sound good. Even if the cleric casts it 2/day, that's a big expenditure of resources, so it seems worth negating the fear aura. A dip into a meldshaping class might help -- I think there are some soulmelds that give immunity or at least large bonuses against fear.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-26, 10:00 AM
Yeah, seriously he should have seen this coming. If he dislikes the situation he's put himself in, let him lose the flaw and the free feat. That should prop his save back up a little.

Beyond that, he's buttered his bread and now he's got to lie in it.

Runestar
2010-02-26, 10:11 AM
Is there a reason why a lv11+ party is not automatically starting each day with heroes' feast? Seriously, the benefits seem well worth the cost of a 6th lv spell - disease/fear immunity, long-duration aid. My DM pretty much accepted that certain status effects just would be flat out useless by a certain lv. :smallamused:

I don't believe in "You made your bed, now you have to lie in it", at least not in dnd. That's the whole point of the OP creating this thread. You have a perceived weakness, you find some way to mitigate that limitation or even make it irrelevant altogether. :smallbiggrin:

Heck, tell him to go necropolitan if he has to. Or retrain 2 lvs in gravetouched ghoul or something. Yes, poor will saves may seem suicidal in a game where a failed will-save is often a SoD or worse, but that does not mean a low will save is untenable if the player is prepared for it. :smallsmile:

Thajocoth
2010-02-26, 10:11 AM
Did he know ahead of time there'd be a focus on Will saves? Does he regret making such a low-will character?

I'd let him tweak a few feats and his flaw if he wants, something I would always allow within a short enough time since character creation, as long as it's ultimately a similar character. I've had my share of characters who trudged on with bad decisions that I really just didn't want to play.

kamikasei
2010-02-26, 10:24 AM
The problem with "he made his character with this weakness, let him deal with the consequences" is that one of the consequences may be "he can't contribute meaningfully, so he has no fun and drags the game down for the rest of the table too". If his character concept doesn't work for the game - and "a guy with no strength of will or mental defences, adventuring through the Hells themselves and battling mind-devastating horrors" doesn't sound like a very good match - then it might be prudent to have him rebuild rather than try to offset or work around his flaws.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-26, 10:27 AM
The problem with "he made his character with this weakness, let him deal with the consequences" is that one of the consequences may be "he can't contribute meaningfully, so he has no fun and drags the game down for the rest of the table too". If his character concept doesn't work for the game - and "a guy with no strength of will or mental defences, adventuring through the Hells themselves and battling mind-devastating horrors" doesn't sound like a very good match - then it might be prudent to have him rebuild rather than try to offset or work around his flaws.

Yes, well. The point is that he took the flaw, and then took a PRC whose entire concept was "adventuring through the Hells themselves and battling mind-devastating horrors".

It just sounds like backfiring munchkinery, really. Allow him to lose the flaw, (and feat that he got from it), if he chooses. Really, It's hard to have sympathy.

Evard
2010-02-26, 10:29 AM
So if the other characters have problems with something due to poor choices (even when not going into hell a poor will save is horrible) then will you let them change their character, and if those choices later make them have different problems will you allow them to change again?

When I make a character in DnD I understand that there will be things wrong with it and that is part of the fun, instead of changing his character make him change his tactics? Give him a bow or crossbow for when he is fighting things with suggestion or fear... You could also put some lesser monsters in the fight for him to kill while the rest of the party fights the bigger threats.

kamikasei
2010-02-26, 10:33 AM
I'm not advocating sympathy. My point is just that the DM has a measure of responsibility to try to make the game fun, and part of that includes telling players when the character they're describing (or playing) won't be (or is proving not to be) capable of having much fun in the game, or actually making the game less fun for others. Maybe this player is a complete jackass who deserves to have a terrible, unfun game as karmic backlash for his shortsighted munchkinry, but even if that's so there's no reason for the DM and other players to see their game suffer for the sake of providing that backlash.

So, yes, if as it seems the player has made choices in building his character that just don't work for the campaign, the solution I would recommend is to simply let him rebuild slightly to make his character a better fit.

Evard
2010-02-26, 11:23 AM
Letting the player remake the character makes the campaign seem less dangerous and fun. If I was playing in a game where the DM didn't put me up against my biggest weakness I would feel well that things sucked, I like to be challenged while having fun.

randomhero00
2010-02-26, 11:24 AM
I thought you could only be affected by 1 aura of the same type a day? Or was it only from 1 creature's same typed aura a day? If its the former it shouldn't be as much of a problem.

Pluto
2010-02-26, 11:43 AM
The problem with "he made his character with this weakness, let him deal with the consequences" is that one of the consequences may be "he can't contribute meaningfully, so he has no fun and drags the game down for the rest of the table too". If his character concept doesn't work for the game - and "a guy with no strength of will or mental defences, adventuring through the Hells themselves and battling mind-devastating horrors" doesn't sound like a very good match - then it might be prudent to have him rebuild rather than try to offset or work around his flaws.

Just for one level.
(Or until the party can adapt.)
He's only temporarily screwed, so long as the effects aren't outright lethal.

If the group can't find a way to cope, a Warblade dip would solve most of his problems with Moment of Perfect Mind, Bolstering Voice and Iron Heart Surge.

Thajocoth
2010-02-26, 11:45 AM
Letting the player remake the character makes the campaign seem less dangerous and fun. If I was playing in a game where the DM didn't put me up against my biggest weakness I would feel well that things sucked, I like to be challenged while having fun.

Except that, when making a character initially, one may expect it to play very differently than it does. A person might have no idea that fear auras even exist, let alone that he would be seeing a lot of them in a Hell themed campaign. I know I would not have anticipated it if I was the player... That's why I let players adjust their characters a bit within the first few sessions of that character's life.

Evard
2010-02-26, 11:49 AM
But making yourself really really vulnerable to something and knowing you are doing that (he took a flaw) you should know it will be exploited. Even if the hell wasn't going to happen there are soooo many things that targets Will that its not funny.

Thajocoth
2010-02-26, 12:02 PM
But making yourself really really vulnerable to something and knowing you are doing that (he took a flaw) you should know it will be exploited. Even if the hell wasn't going to happen there are soooo many things that targets Will that its not funny.

You assume he knows this. I wouldn't. The only 3.5 game I ever played never touched my Will. In 4e, which I usually play, having one abysmal defense doesn't usually make a character unplayable.

Frosty
2010-02-26, 01:57 PM
Having an abysmall Reflex save is fine. It's only damage. Having an abysmal Will save is just asking for it.

In any case, he wrote a kickass backstory and his character isn't munchkin-esque at all. The 9 Wisdom makes sense given his megalomaniac narcissist backstory. He has 10 str, 20 (26) dex, 12 (14) con, 14 (16) int, 9 wis, and 12 cha. He's Pathfinder Rogue 5/Hellbreaker 9. He has the -3 Will save flaw and the -1 HP/level +10ft speed trait.

Oh, apparently he doesn't have anytrhing like a Cloak of Resistance.

Evard
2010-02-26, 01:58 PM
Did your DM make sure your will wasn't touched? I know as a DM I personally throw everything and everyone oddly enough I usually miss their bad defenses and hit their good ones -_-;;;;

Its common sense that your weakest link will be exploited or at minimum attacked at some point in the game.

Now for the character not the player, what low willed adventurer would even go into hell? That in itself makes no sense, if i was an adventurer that knew i was easily dominated i would not go somewhere that houses anything that is known to deal with manipulating people's will.

Thajocoth
2010-02-26, 03:21 PM
Did your DM make sure your will wasn't touched? I know as a DM I personally throw everything and everyone oddly enough I usually miss their bad defenses and hit their good ones -_-;;;;

Its common sense that your weakest link will be exploited or at minimum attacked at some point in the game.

Now for the character not the player, what low willed adventurer would even go into hell? That in itself makes no sense, if i was an adventurer that knew i was easily dominated i would not go somewhere that houses anything that is known to deal with manipulating people's will.

No, he used the same 3 monsters over & over... We fought Ogres, Orcs & Kobolds. Oh, and some statue that knew Magic Missile. He only uses monsters he has memorized. So many things were wrong with that campaign though...