PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Two-weapon fighting/cleave build by 21: viable?



Masaioh
2010-02-25, 07:28 PM
Does the playground think that a melee class at level 21 with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Great Cleave, and Ultimate Cleave (and all their prerequisites) would be any good in a high-power early epic game?

If I have this right, the character would get to make 4 attacks with each weapon, with standard 20/15/10/5 plus modifiers, and each attack could cleave if it drops an enemy. Assuming you are able to get 25 Dex by 21st level, that is. I haven't decided what weapon to use, but exotics are a bad idea because this build is already feat-heavy. However, wielding a pair of other (normally) two-handed weapons may be possible.

I plan to make either a Gravity Warrior or a Threat with this build. Both classes can be found on dungeons.wikia.com, and they are written by the same person.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-25, 07:34 PM
Non-casters are never worth playing in Epic.

Gan The Grey
2010-02-25, 07:39 PM
Non-casters are never worth playing in Epic.

You REALLY think this is a useful response?

Edit: Just in case this isn't clear, the question is rhetorical.

Masaioh
2010-02-25, 07:39 PM
Non-casters are never worth playing in Epic.

Non-casters dominate in our games. Not sure what we're doing different, but epic spellcasting isn't even viable until around 25th due to low spellcraft.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-25, 07:45 PM
Non-casters dominate in our games. Not sure what we're doing different, but epic spellcasting isn't even viable until around 25th due to low spellcraft.

We seriously need a headdesk or facepalm emote...


You REALLY think this is a useful response?

Apparently the OP isn't aware of basic Epic optimization. Dunno why I even bothered posting, considering he's using Homebrew from the Wiki. 90% of thatstuff is unbalanced enough pre-Epic...

Gan The Grey
2010-02-25, 07:49 PM
I recommend taking magic weapons that pump your to-hit over everything else initially, followed by enchantments that add d6's. There are alot of good feats in PHBII that help for to-hit and two-weapon fighting (the mastery feats and two-weapon pounce and rend). Your two biggest issues will be missing on iterative attacks and the generally low damage values of these attacks vs a two-hand fighter. And unless you can figure out how to raise the damage of individual attacks, you won't be making many cleave attempts. Cleave works well with low occurance high damage attacks.


We seriously need a headdesk or facepalm emote...

So, because some people play differently than you do, focusing on different aspects of the game than you...we should just look down on them and avoid answering their questions?

Masaioh
2010-02-25, 07:50 PM
I recommend taking magic weapons that pump your to-hit over everything else initially, followed by enchantments that add d6's. There are alot of good feats in PHBII that help for to-hit and two-weapon fighting (the mastery feats and two-weapon pounce and rend). Your two biggest issues will be missing on iterative attacks and the generally low damage values of these attacks vs a two-hand fighter. And unless you can figure out how to raise the damage of individual attacks, you won't be making many cleave attempts. Cleave works well with low occurance high damage attacks.

Got it. I don't have access to PHBII, but my DM might.

And Sunfire, could you explain what you mean by "basic epic optimization"?

noiadodh
2010-02-25, 07:56 PM
And Sunfire, could you explain what you mean by "basic epic optimization"?

abusing the epic spells DCs mitigation mechanics IIRC...

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-25, 07:56 PM
Take, for example, a wizard. The wizard is extremely smart and cunning, and has spent a lot of time researching magic. IC, once epic magic becomes available, the wizard "should" realize that epic magic is extremely powerful, and could do much good for the world (or for himself). Ergo, as a high-Int character with access to an extremely powerful system, the in-character thing to do would be to optimize Epic Spellcasting. And once that's done, with minions contributing spell slots, things start to fall apart.

Of course, nobody can properly RP a godlike-Int character anyway, so "dumbing down" the wizard to not abuse any spells is reasonable.

Also, because the question is about "viable", the point is moot. The build can never be optimal; it can certainly become viable. As long as it's in line with the rest of the party, and has cool numbers, it's viable as long as the DM adjusts well.

Masaioh
2010-02-25, 08:03 PM
abusing the epic spells DCs mitigation mechanics IIRC...

Oh, I see. My DM ruled that the "additional participants" mitigation can only be used if the character is a Red Wizard or another class that can use circle magic, due to some FR fluff that I wouldn't be able to explain adequately. XP payment is changed to material components that cost 10x the equivalent xp cost in gold IE. 100 xp would translate to a 1,000 gp material component. (We don't use XP at all, it complicates things because we usually have new players in our games)

So in order to really 'break' epic spellcasting you either need tens of millions of GP for material components or every item you wear has to increase either your main spellcasting ability or spellcraft skill.

Those are the most in-depth hourserules we use, everything else is relatively minor. The campaign I would use this build in would probably have every PC be balanced around epic casters in order to make them not broken.

Thurbane
2010-02-25, 08:03 PM
...anyway, back to the original question. I'm not that good with epic builds, but if you want to get mileage out of TWF and Cleave, you're going to need some serious reach. Grab every feat and item that increases your reach and/or size.

Personman's handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732

Masaioh
2010-02-25, 08:05 PM
...anyway, back to the original question. I'm not that good with epic builds, but if you want to get mileage out of TWF and Cleave, you're going to need some serious reach. Grab every feat and item that increases your reach and/or size.

Personman's handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732

I have access to a feat called lighten weapon. It's like weapon focus in that you choose one type of weapon, but it allows you to wield it one size category larger at a -2 attack penalty. A reach weapon would gain reach this way. The Improved feat removes this penalty.

This means I need as many bonus feats as possible...

noiadodh
2010-02-25, 08:08 PM
So in order to really 'break' epic spellcasting you either need tens of millions of GP for material components or every item you wear has to increase either your main spellcasting ability or spellcraft skill.

finally found it

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=791074&postcount=9

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-25, 08:13 PM
My DM ruled that the "additional participants" mitigation can only be used if the character is a Red Wizard or another class that can use circle magic

In any case, nonepic spellcasting is enough for an uber-intelligent character to break the campaign world. But, again, this discussion is off-topic.

My high-level optimization is limited, but I really would have to second Person_Man's handbook. It won't get you all of the way, of course, but it should take you far enough that the amount of work you have to do is satisfactory.

Masaioh
2010-02-25, 08:28 PM
In any case, nonepic spellcasting is enough for an uber-intelligent character to break the campaign world. But, again, this discussion is off-topic.

My high-level optimization is limited, but I really would have to second Person_Man's handbook. It won't get you all of the way, of course, but it should take you far enough that the amount of work you have to do is satisfactory.

Alter Self + Enlarge Person sounds good. Here's the feats I have so far for a human Threat 21:

Human bonus: power attack
1st level: Cleave
3rd level: Two-Weapon Fighting
6th level: Great Cleave
9th level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12th level: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15th level: Ultimate Cleave
18th level: Lighten Weapon
21st level: Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

As of 21st level, the Threat's class abilities give my weapon three effective size categories, plus lighten weapon gives one actual size category at a -2 penalty. Due to perfect two-weapon fighting, it will be the only penalty I have. This can allow me to wield two colossal-sized one-handed weapons. There is also a special metal the weapons can be made out of called Dragonsteel which is either homebrew or Unearthed Arcana, which makes the weapon one size category lighter. Add in alter self and enlarge person as well.

It will work, but it'll make me a glass cannon.

Mongoose87
2010-02-25, 08:34 PM
You guys might have a houserule for this, but you don't actually increase your reach when you increase weapon size.

Roderick_BR
2010-02-25, 08:47 PM
We seriously need a headdesk or facepalm emote...



Apparently the OP isn't aware of basic Epic optimization. Dunno why I even bothered posting, considering he's using Homebrew from the Wiki. 90% of thatstuff is unbalanced enough pre-Epic...

You mean basic cheese optimization. And last I checked, no one starts out with such knolewdge. He could search the forums if he knew such things existed, and since he joined past August, he could not have browsed enough to learn about it, so, no headdesks or facepalms needed, except for your post.

That said, to the OP: TWF is considered weak due to high feat and equipment cost for less return than builds with two-handed weapons, and spellcasting is considered superior to anything, no exceptions (maybe the truenamer, but that's another case).
For epic casting, there are ways to boost spellcraft checks using magic itens AND ways to reduce the DC to create spells. Mostly of it are rules abuse, though.

Finally, TWF can get nice if you can find ways to attack more than once a round if you move more than 5ft. You can get Pounce (search/google it), or those feats to move/charge and make one attack with each weapon, and one that lets you TWFight in attacks of opportunity.

Suggestion: Unless utherly necessary, avoid Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and the epic version, because you'll rarely, if at all, use that 3rd and 4th attacks, even using those move tricks, and even if you do, it's unlikely to hit. If you are playing a fighter, that Weapon Supremacy feat gives an ability to make your 2nd attack at +5, effectively making you attack +20/+20 with each weapon. There's also the tempest PrC that removes some TWF penalties, and makes weapon specific feat from one weapon apply to another.

The rest is about the reach thing people said.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-25, 10:25 PM
Check this thread: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132804&highlight=lightning+mace+infinite+attacks)
It's built around pumping the crit range super high, then getting a free attack everytime you get a crit-threat.
The theoretically infinite number of attacks the build grants will help with your desire to cleave like a madman. If only because you'll be doing more damage on your turn, raising the chances of you bringing someone below 0 HP.

While I don't know what the higher forms of cleave do (only cleave and great cleave), I don't think you're likely to be cleaving too often in a game once you get past say level 10. So those feats are probably a bit of a waste. It's even worse since you're using TWF, so while you get more attacks per round, you're doing less damage on each individual attack, and doing so at a lower attack bonus (though you've got perfect TWF, so that's not an issue).
Additionally, most viable TWF builds use rogue so you can get Sneak Attack on each attack. Even 5d6 SA per attack adds up when you're making 6+ attacks a round. (There's a feat which boosts it to d8's vs evil creatures too)

The reason people keep saying that only casters are effective in epic is because they break reality by rolling a spellcraft check for d20+100. While a fighter just deals hitpoint damage. The problem with hitpoint damage is that the monster is just as deadly at 1 HP as it is at 600 (unless houserules are in effect). Certain published feats will actually raise effectiveness when your HP total is low.

Masaioh
2010-02-25, 10:46 PM
Ultimate Cleave lets you carry over any excess damage from the killing blow onto your cleave attack once per turn.

After looking this over again, I think i'm gonna drop the cleave feats. Including Power Attack, that frees up 4 more feats.

Jallorn
2010-02-25, 11:06 PM
-snip-
So, because some people play differently than you do, focusing on different aspects of the game than you...we should just look down on them and avoid answering their questions?

You win this thread.

lsfreak
2010-02-26, 12:02 AM
You win this thread.

The problem is we have to assume RAW, and RAW-wise, anything non-caster will get their face splattered into the ground at epic. So while people may play differently, we assume everyone plays by the same unless it's explicit we've thrown that common ground out.

The OP obviously throws out at least some of that common ground, but made no effort to clarify that in the first post.

Now that we know more of what we're dealing with, we can go onto something useful (because giving out TWF/Cleave help in epic isn't useful when you're assuming everything the rules do, because it just doesn't cut it).

Boci
2010-02-26, 12:06 AM
So, because some people play differently than you do, focusing on different aspects of the game than you...we should just look down on them and avoid answering their questions?

But Sinfire Titan did answer the question. The OP asked is the build viable and they said no.

I guess you could use the lightning mace trick for extra attacks, and at epic you should be able to afford enough gear to make all enemies vulnerable to crits, provided your magic items are not meddled with.

Feycraft from DMG II is a must, it will save feats.

On a side note I support the bid for a headdeask emote.


I recommend taking magic weapons that pump your to-hit over everything else initially, followed by enchantments that add d6's.

Doesn't dual wielding lend itself to crit fishing, which doesn't benefit that much from a fist full of d6s?

Flickerdart
2010-02-26, 12:07 AM
If you're willing to sacrifice power for flavour, you might want to take a look at the Lightning Warrior. :smallbiggrin:

tonberrian
2010-02-26, 12:25 AM
giving out TWF/Cleave help ... just doesn't cut it

:smalltongue:

Anyways.

It would be more useful to know exactly what material the OP has available, and where everything is coming from - I now know of two different Ultimate Cleave feats, and while I think this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Cleave_(DnD_Feat)) was the one he was referencing, I could be entirely wrong.

More to the point, the build still doesn't negate the basic flaw of Melee - how to consistently be able to hit things multiple times. Might I point towards another of Person_Man's handbooks, this one being about Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

(Does anyone have a list of all of Person_Man's helpful threads? I really need to bookmark them all under one folder for easy reference.)

herrhauptmann
2010-02-26, 12:31 AM
Which book is that in? "Netbook of feats" quoted at the bottom sounds more like a 3rd party thing that uses the OGL.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-26, 12:40 AM
Without a boatload of additional damage per swing, a TWF/Cleave build is nigh-worthless. You need to stack damage on top of damage on top of damage for any kind of TWF to be effective. Otherwise you deal sub-par damage, never kill anything, thus half your build is completely worthless. Realistically, in an epic game, you need at least an extra hundred or so damage per swing to be a viable threat with this kind of build.

Gan The Grey
2010-02-26, 12:49 AM
Okay people. Let's stop pretending that posting a reply that completely disregards the OP's question is anything but snarky and elitist. According to the final comments of his post, the OP obviously wants to play a melee build of some sort. Had Sinfire continued by showing the OP how to make an optimized melee character for epic play, I wouldn't have anything to say. And I know Sinfire is smart enough to make a good high level melee character.


Doesn't dual wielding lend itself to crit fishing, which doesn't benefit that much from a fist full of d6s?

That's one side of the coin, sure. But...why have the possibility for double or triple damage on your attacks when you can have an extra 5d6 from various elemental enchantments guaranteed?

Upsides - Works on monsters immune to critical hits, guaranteed damage on each attack.

Downsides - Elemental immunities are common at high level.

I'm sure there are better enchantments that add extra damage that bypass elemental immunities, like merciful, but I'm AFB currently.

Masaioh
2010-02-26, 12:52 AM
Tonberrian, that is the right Ultimate Cleave.

Netbook is a 3rd party source that, AFAIK, has been taken off of the internet. I have it as a .doc. It's like 400 pages of feats.

I have the following books:

Complete Arcane/Champion/Divine/Warrior
Draconomicon
MM 1-5
PHB
DMG
Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness
Exemplars of Evil
Elder Evils
Libris Mortis
Lords of Madness
Draconomicon
Fiendish Codex 1 & 2
ToB (But my DM doesn't allow it, I'd have to clear any content with him beforehand)
ELH
Weapons of Legacy
Magic Item Compendium
Quintessential Fighter/Sorcerer
BoEF (Just don't ask)

My DM has other books, but I won't be able to look through them personally because he's in Japan right now.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-26, 12:54 AM
See if you can get a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian thrown in with Shock Trooper thrown in (you already got Great Cleave, so all you really need for it is Improved Bull Rush), and Leap Attack. That should increase your damage output nicely.

Masaioh
2010-02-26, 12:55 AM
Okay people. Let's stop pretending that posting a reply that completely disregards the OP's question is anything but snarky and elitist. According to the final comments of his post, the OP obviously wants to play a melee build of some sort. Had Sinfire continued by showing the OP how to make an optimized melee character for epic play, I wouldn't have anything to say. And I know Sinfire is smart enough to make a good high level melee character.



That's one side of the coin, sure. But...why have the possibility for double or triple damage on your attacks when you can have an extra 5d6 from various elemental enchantments guaranteed?

Upsides - Works on monsters immune to critical hits, guaranteed damage on each attack.

Downsides - Elemental immunities are common at high level.

I'm sure there are better enchantments that add extra damage that bypass elemental immunities, like merciful, but I'm AFB currently.

Any weapons I wield will be +10 golemblade. Golemblade is a Homebrew +10 enchantment that doubles the number of damage dice a weapon has and increases the damage die by 2 steps. So a medium Golemblade would deal 4d10 damage. This would be applied after all effective size modifiers. The weapon will require a minimum strength score but anything but Str and Dex will probably be dumpstats anyways.

Grumman
2010-02-26, 12:59 AM
The only time I'd recommend Cleave on an Epic character is if you're wielding the Lance of the Unending Charge and planning on carving a five-lane highway through everything in your path. For a fighter-type on foot, no.

If I was going to play the character concept you suggest, I'd use my Thri-kreen Typhoon build. This means Perfect Multiweapon Fighting, Telflammar Shadowlord for teleport-pounce, and the shadow-jump maneuvers based on Warblade levels.

absolmorph
2010-02-26, 01:16 AM
If you're willing to sacrifice power for flavour, you might want to take a look at the Lightning Warrior. :smallbiggrin:
This amused me because it was completely unexpected.

Also, TWF benefits most from boatloads of bonus damage, like sneak attacks.
If you've got +7d6 damage from SA, then you can get an extra +56d6 damage in a round. Get lots of SA dice. If it gives you bonus damage dice on all attacks, use it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-26, 01:18 AM
Any weapons I wield will be +10 golemblade. Golemblade is a Homebrew +10 enchantment that doubles the number of damage dice a weapon has and increases the damage die by 2 steps. So a medium Golemblade would deal 4d10 damage. This would be applied after all effective size modifiers. The weapon will require a minimum strength score but anything but Str and Dex will probably be dumpstats anyways.

*headdesk*

4d10 is not a lot of damage, man. You're gonna need a lot more than that if you are gonna be competitive in an Epic campaign. By level 21, if you aren't having some way of dishing out at least 100 damage a hit, and reliably getting at least one full-round attack per round, you're gonna be left waaaaay behind.

You asked how to make this build more viable. My suggestion: more damage. See if you can get a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard in the group somehow. Find some way to stack a handful of bonuses on your damage. Something...

Gan The Grey
2010-02-26, 01:21 AM
Any weapons I wield will be +10 golemblade. Golemblade is a Homebrew +10 enchantment that doubles the number of damage dice a weapon has and increases the damage die by 2 steps. So a medium Golemblade would deal 4d10 damage. This would be applied after all effective size modifiers. The weapon will require a minimum strength score but anything but Str and Dex will probably be dumpstats anyways.

Does that give you a +10 to hit, or is that just the cost of the enchantment? If the first, then I scream unbalanced in an overpowered sense(by that I mean it ignores the rules for creating magic items), and if the second, then I scream unbalanced in a not-even-close-to-worth-it for this build sense. Without the bonuses to hit, a dual-wield build won't work.

Either way, I'd stick with either +5 somethings with +5 worth of damage dice weapons, enhancing crit, and finding other ways of adding extra damage dice to each attack. And take feats to boost your to-hit as well.

tonberrian
2010-02-26, 01:30 AM
That Golemblade enchantment? Crap. Threat class? More crap. If my calculations are correct (probably not in this case, stupid size category changing), you've managed to increase your base damage up to around 22d10, or about 121, plus whatever miscellaneous bonuses you may have.

This is too low. You've spent all your efforts increasing your base weapon damage - and it's not working for you. You need to look at other ways of adding damage - see Person_Man's guides on putting stats to good use (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) and Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026).

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-26, 01:50 AM
Greater two weapon fighting is terrible. An extra attack at a -10? For a feat? I'll pass...

tyckspoon
2010-02-26, 02:23 AM
That Golemblade enchantment? Crap. Threat class? More crap. If my calculations are correct (probably not in this case, stupid size category changing), you've managed to increase your base damage up to around 22d10, or about 121, plus whatever miscellaneous bonuses you may have.

This is too low. You've spent all your efforts increasing your base weapon damage - and it's not working for you.

That's actually not too bad for early epic; if he's swinging 8-ish attacks for 100+ damage apiece in a full attack sequence he can still expect to pretty reliably drop a CR 20-22 enemy. It just won't scale any more than that unless he is permitted more homebrew size increases.. and I suppose there's also the problem that a an effective +20 equivalent weapon is hilariously outside the wealth ratings for a level 21 character, let alone two of them for dual-wielding. Heck, a +11 equivalent (if you make it as simple as possible and get a +1 Golembane, which would be subject to DR/Epic..) is too costly at more than 2 million GP for the sword alone. Epic wealth scales pretty fast, but it's not *that* fast.

... 'course, giving the Fighter an inappropriately powerful sword is one of the classic solutions for their class weakness, so why not.

Runestar
2010-02-26, 02:27 AM
I doubt you are likely to hit at all with your 4th attack(s), so you may wish to consider taking the stormguard warrior feat (from tome of battle). It lets you make touch attacks (no damage if you hit, but each successful hit grants you a damage bonus on attacks next round). So you still get something out of your less useful 3rd and 4th attacks. This can translate to ~12-16 extra damage per hit each round.

Also consider getting a source of pounce, either by taking 1 lv of barb, warblade for pouncing charge or even taking the dire charge feat. MIC has some items which let you move as a swift action. Basically, you want to be able to consistently make a full attack, since the damage of your individual attacks won't be too stellar.

Some other useful feats may include dual strike (miniatures handbook), combat reflexes (you have a good dex), robilar's gambit (to complement dual strike), high sword/low axe (add a little tripping into the equation), melee weapon mastery (for the bonus damage). Not sure if you can squeeze them all in though.

What's your build stub again? Fighter21?

I say scrap cleave and focus solely on TWFing. I won't say it is optimal, but hey, the point of optimization is to make the best out of any one given situation. :smallsmile:

2xMachina
2010-02-26, 02:57 AM
Use Thri-Keen? 2 more hands to attack with. MWF FTW. (2HD+1LA)

Or Insectile template for +4 hands (+2LA). With buy off, that's 2HD for 8 hands, and lots of +Dex.

If you don't mind changing a bit, Master Thrower with BSB (warblade/fighter base) could do mass attack pretty well. Use the Touch attack of Master Thrower to counter to-hit penalty. BSB for mixing melee and range. Thrown weapon? That's melee for BSB. So you can full attack anytime. I think you can even cleave with the BSB thrown weapon.

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-26, 04:28 AM
That's actually not too bad for early epic; if he's swinging 8-ish attacks for 100+ damage apiece in a full attack sequence he can still expect to pretty reliably drop a CR 20-22 enemy. It just won't scale any more than that unless he is permitted more homebrew size increases.. and I suppose there's also the problem that a an effective +20 equivalent weapon is hilariously outside the wealth ratings for a level 21 character, let alone two of them for dual-wielding. Heck, a +11 equivalent (if you make it as simple as possible and get a +1 Golembane, which would be subject to DR/Epic..) is too costly at more than 2 million GP for the sword alone. Epic wealth scales pretty fast, but it's not *that* fast.

... 'course, giving the Fighter an inappropriately powerful sword is one of the classic solutions for their class weakness, so why not.

At least i my experience, we made it work in our old Epic Campaing but:

1) It needs high MADness because the fighter had Devastating and Overwhelming Critical as well

2) The fighter need to be over - equipped (rearrange how enhancements works in epic weapons)... very easy for the DM. Just a note: Vorpal weapons gain a new interest because lot of attacks --> lot of chances (consider anyway that the main villains of the caampaign were fiends, so highly "crittable" and "vorpalizable")

3) More pounce or belt-of battle-like effects you take, better is the result you reach.

4) Don't undestimate throwing if linked with effects (say, tripping).

5) If you have problems with DR and to-hit, throw in Blade of Ragnarok.

So, I agree with you.