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CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-25, 09:56 PM
I mostly play D&D. Or rather, I did, until I flung myself into self-imposed exile. However, I'm not beyond expanding my horizons into new gaming systems. For instance, I've played Shadowrun a few times, and used to play Warhammer 40K until I wound up living in a cardboard box.

I often see mention of the game Exalted on these forums, whether here or in the Recruiting Games threads. I've seen Exalted (whatever the current version is; the one you'd see waltzing into Borders or Barnes & Noble) before, and perused the massive main book, but I'm yet to sit down and devour the thing. I'd rather do so after purchasing the book, but I must know more before such a decision can be made.

So, what's up with Exalted? Is it fun? Give me the hard sell!

I know that you basically play as demigods, but that's about it. What's the main mechanic? What's the best part about it? What are some folks' experiences playing this game?

My mind thirsts for answers to these questions, as well as questions I'm yet to even think of. Being a crotchety old 3.5 D&D loon, is it a system best avoided by my curmudgeonly, simulationist ways? Or should I open my heart to a new era of over-the-top epic action? What say you? WHAT SAY YOU?

Lochar
2010-02-25, 10:07 PM
I'm going to do this the easy way.

God-Kings of Lotus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108603)

IC-2 of God-Kings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135748)

Come back when you're finished reading and tell me whether or not you're sold.

unre9istered
2010-02-25, 10:10 PM
Over the top epic action, a la anime style kung fu. You can also pull off social/politcal/large scale war kung fu as well, thought he war stuff is rarely used.
The game uses d10s only. You roll a number of dice equal to your attribute (strength, dexterity, stamina, charisma, manipulation, appearance, wits, intelligence, perception) plus ability (melee, stealth, occult etc). A 7 or higher on a die is a success. You also have "charms" which are your powers and can do anything from simply doubling the dice pool you have to making it so you can jump 100's of yards or use a melee on a guy 50' away or cause a crowd of people to riot (or stop a riot). You spend essence points to do this, you have a pool of 30-100 or so depending on your stats.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-25, 10:11 PM
I'm going to do this the lazy way.


Fixed that for you.

Come now, people! This is a forum! I desire discussion! Begin the babbling!

The Demented One
2010-02-25, 10:13 PM
• Main mechanic: it's the Storyteller system. If you've played World of Darkness, you know the basics. Couple things different, but it's very easily adapted to.

• The premise: You're an epic hero in an equally epic world, a world that's beset on all sides by apocalyptic doom. You're either its greatest champion and defender in the face of the apocalypse...or else you are the apocalypse.

• Fun bits: Phenomenal cosmic power. In contrast to Dungeons and Dragons, where the beginning character is a fresh adventurer, the beginning character in Exalted is a reborn demigod, and is one of the most important people in the setting by sheer dint of the power he wields. You aren't at the top of the totem pole, but you're in the upper echelons. Things like founding kingdoms, waging war, fighting rogue gods and powerful demons, and forging epic artifacts is all within the purview of beginning play. As you become more and more advanced, you begin building empires, bringing back the magic and technology of bygone ages, and battling cosmic horrors toe-to-toe. The action is amazingly fun, as you are actually rewarded for being awesome.

• Less fun bits: the system is not an easy one to get started on. There are lots of crunchy bits to get mastered. Some books have very poorly done mechanics, although a new wave of errata has just begun to be released that fixes a lot of bad things. The internet community can be very, very vitriolic.

Tavar
2010-02-25, 10:18 PM
Useful Exalted Quotes (http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?action=browse&id=QuotesofCoolness&oldid=CoolQuotes)

Funny Exalted Quotes (http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?QuotesofGoodness)

The former give alot of info on how the game actually works. The latter references broken things in the same order as the commoner Rail Gun, but also gives a more humorous look at the game. Both are good reads.

Also, best quote of the bunch:

I've said before, and I'll say again, the fact that I like the Dragonblooded means I find them interesting, which does not imply morally correct or that I feel they have to "win" (whatever that means). Some people do, but I've never said so.

But here's the thing - I don't think they're bad either. I think they'll FAIL, sure, because that's the canonical end of the Age of Sorrows, but so will everyone else.

But they aren't going to fail because they're not heroic enough. Nor are the Solars. Nor are the Lunars. Nor are the Sidereals. They'll fail because the odds are too high and the time too short and the divisions between the Exalts too deep.

(I'm excluding the Abyssals from this as they're a special case - they're not their own Exalt type, they're corrupted Solars, who one and all chose to be corrupted, albeit under duress. Also they've only just come into existence.)

But I don't see any of them as fools and villains. And I'll explain why.

Now, it's easy to see why Solars are heroes, and I hardly have to convince Nagisawa Takumi of that anyway, but hey, here goes: they're Exalted due to excellence. They were Exalted because they surpassed their fellow man even before they had a hint of divine power. They are left in the world, alone, to forge their own destiny. Some find others like them, but there's so few of them in such a huge world that most work alone. They have no backup, no support, and no cause beyond that which they choose for themselves (although sometimes Zeniths get instruction, they're very vague). They have to forge their own place in a world that, if it perhaps doesn't all fear and hate them, is mostly willing to take advantage of them at the friendliest. And they DO it. Their reappearence: scattered, without support, in a time of tumult, has nonetheless already redefined the world. Every Solar can change the world, singly or jointly. They can descend into the darkest sin or be a paragon of virtue(s). They were instrumental in building the First Age, and could build the Third. The Solars are undeniably heroes.

But they are not the only heroes.

Let me tell you what it means to be Dragonblooded. To be Dragonblooded is to have a responsibility. To be Dragonblooded is to take up the sword to defend Creation. Every Dynast can ride, and shoot, and fight both bare handed and with a weapon, and lead troops into battle. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. The most fat, jaded, lazy bureaucrat of the Thousand Scales can take up a sword and fight a strong man to a standstill without use of a single Charm, and lead troops into battle with competence. The requirements for Lookshy Dragonblooded are even more strict. If you cannot learn to fight for Creation, Dragonblooded society has no use for you. They believe themselves to be the only force standing between Creation and that which would destroy it, and they act accordingly. That does not just include personal competence. To be Dragonblooded is not a title, or an adornment, but membership in a single nation. Only Dragonblooded, of all the Exalted, have a Charm that allows them to take their most hated Dragonblooded foe and instantly trust and love them like a brother to join together to fight a greater threat. That is their duty: that is their call. You say they have failed Creation in their stewardship. But they have saved it. Saved it once, and twice, and many times over. When they overthrew the Solars, they were dying in scores, in droves, in their hundreds and thousands, but they would not surrender. They would not break. They fought until every last one was gone, because the brotherhood does not retreat. When the Great Contagion broke the armies of the Shogunate and the survivors faced oncoming endless hordes of horrors from beyond reality, they did not lay down and die, or flee screaming and broken. Oh, a few may have, but the records are clear on the whole: they fought. They fought to the end, they forced the Fair Folk to scratch and claw and die for everything they wanted to grasp, and in some places they even won, the broken remnants of reality against an impossibly larger foe! And ever since, whenever anything has threatened Creation, any horror has run loose upon it, the Dragonblooded have marched. They have fought the Fair Folk. They have fought rogue gods. They have fought the armies of the dead. Some have failed, some have died, a few have even turned traitor, but the brotherhood of the Dragons still stands in the defence of Creation. Even now, at the beginning of the setting, the Dragonblooded are the two mightiest forces in Creation. They have a religion that venerates them, yes, but also one that orders them to treat mortals well, which is more than one can say for any other known religion in Creation. And they police themselves. Sometimes it is effective and sometimes not, but even now the realms of the Dragonblooded are the safest and most stable in Creation. Even now, in both the Realm and Lookshy, you can find mortals in position of power. Even now, the peasants eat, the spirits are kept doing their proper jobs, and the foes of Creation dare not yet enter, because that is the peace that the Dragonblooded fought and bled and died for. Everything in Creation, everything that lives, owes its life to the Dragonblooded, because it is they who have been the army that defended Creation since the Solars were overthrown and the Lunars left. Every Solar owes his life to the Dragonblooded, even if he owes his death to them as well. Creation might need a more powerful protector, but it could never ask for a more loyal and dedicated one. The Dragonblooded are heroes.

But they are not the only heroes.

Let me tell you what it means to be Lunar. To be Lunar is to be tougher than any other Exalt ever had to be. Lunars don't Exalt for trying to do something audacious and remarkable, like Solars. They Exalt because they did something audacious and remarkable. A Solar might Exalt for taking up a sword to defend his village against the Fair Folk, but a Lunar only Exalts if he survived doing that. A Lunar has to win, to overcome a trial that seems impossible, before they get any reward. That is the life of a Lunar in a nutshell. They do not have the overwhelming power of the Solars, nor the brotherhood of the Dragonblooded, nor the support of Heavens and certain knowedge of the Sidereals. And yet they survive nonetheless. There is no challenge the Lunars cannot survive. The fury of the Primordials could not destroy them. The Dragonblooded and Sidereals could not stop them from escaping. The Wyld twisted them, broke them at their very core, crippled that which made them Exalted, and the Lunars yet survived. They not only survived, they remade themselves. Without their patron, without the Solars, without anyone else, the Lunars forged themselves new Exaltation and survived still. If they could not inhabit Creation, they inhabited the Wyld, a place absolutely antithetical to life, and survived still. And they did not just simply survive, either, cowering like dogs at the edge of a campfire's light. They grew stronger. They seized places of power. They forged nations. And they forged each other. They found new Lunars and tattooed them as the Lunars now needed to survive. And they did this without Sidereal astrology or any other means of instantly finding out when and where one Exalted. They did this through constant vigilence and looking out for those who needed it most. Nobody, not even the Solars, have faced what the Lunars have. The Solars merely died. But the Lunars were broken down to their very soul. Every Lunar, everywhere, is broken. But they have not died. They have not surrendered and become the lapdogs of the Dragonblooded and received the considerable benefits of their strength. They have not turned their backs on Creation, either. They have not walked out into the Wyld and left everything behind. Despite everything, despite terror and betrayal and death, despite being wounded more than any other Exalt could even imagine, they remain steadfast and true to themselves above all. The Lunars are heroes.

But they are not the only heroes.

Let me tell you what it means to be Sidereal. There is no life harder than that of a Sidereal. To be Sidereal is to be chosen, from birth, although you neither knew nor asked for it. To be Sidereal is to Exalt and be told that now you must train to be the finest-edged weapon in Creation, that you will spend the rest of your incredibly long life protecting Creation, and that there is no time for weakness, for doubt, or for failure. You will do what is required of you, or you will die and another will be chosen who is of a finer mettle than you. And most every Sidereal you will ever meet was given that choice, nodded their head, and devoted their existence to keeping Creation from the abyss. You may sneer that Sidereals control the world. That is true, but it is nothing to be rejoiced about. Controlling the world is a literal thing for Sidereals, not figurative. They must espy every aspect of it. They must figure out when anything is going wrong. And then they must stop it. Ninety-nine Sidereals, to our knowledge, do this. Ninety-nine men and women work day in and day out for Creation, and their only reward is another assignment and knowing that Creation has gone on another day. They have given up friends. They can love, but will never be loved for themselves. They erased their very existences from Creation to better serve it; if their judgement on how to best serve Creation was wrong, it does not erase the sacrifices they have made in pursuit of the noblest goal there is. They do have vacations, because there is no time and nobody to take their place. They can amass staggering wealth and power but will never be able to enjoy it. Some guide the Solars, some guide the Dragonblooded: in either case, they see young heroes who have their whole lives ahead of them and can do whatever they want with it, who have the ability, the sheer luxury of saying on any given day "screw this, I'm going to go do something else". That's the freedom the Sidereal will never have, can never have, but they will do their job nonetheless and try their damndest to help the Solars or Dragonblooded to save Creation. That is their reward - that Creation lives another day. Not adulation. Not even a thank you. Just a satisfactory result. And they die. Oh yes, they die. Sidereals are the longest-lived of all the Exalted. And yet barely any survive from before the Usurpation. Why? Because they are out, every day, doing what they think must be done to save the world. And many times they die doing it. And death might be a relief, except it's an abject failure which has taken out a key piece of the network that keeps Creation safe. You may not agree with the decisions they make, but only an ingrate or someone suffused with hatred could fail to be in awe at the sacrifices the Sidereals make for what they believe they have to do. Their lives are only the first step. Only a Sidereal could, and does, wield a weapon which is immensely more effective against someone they love. Not pretend to love. Not have convinced that he loves. Not said he loves. Loves. Truly. Deeply. That weapon was built because it would be used. Because to be a Sidereal is to put nothing above your task of defending Creation. Not yourself. Not the one your love. Not your desires. Not anything. You don't matter. You chose not to matter. You chose figuratively (and quite literally in the oldest cases) not to even exist, all in the desire, the drive, the duty to make sure that Creation does exist. The Sidereals are heroes.

But they, too, are not the only heroes.

All of them are heroes. Not individually, of course - there's always individual except. But collectively? Yes. Oh yes. Collectively, they have given more of themselves then anybody should ever be asked to do, and they have done it gamely and with excellence. They have all accomplished feats that border on and in many cases should have been impossible.

They are EXALTED. The name of the game is EXALTED. And the Exalted, all of them, are heroes.

The tragedy of the setting is that being heroic is not enough. Giving of yourself is not enough. Straining yourself to the utmost is not enough. It's too late, too hard, the enemies are at the gates and they cannot be denied. Not by the Solars, or the Dragonblooded, or the Lunars, or the Sidereals or anyone else.

That's where the PCs come in.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-25, 10:18 PM
So, what's up with Exalted?It is fun.


Is it fun?Yes, yes it is. :smallamused:


Give me the hard sell!Gonna try to, anyway.


I know that you basically play as demigods, but that's about it.Specifically, you typically play as an ordinary mortal whose actions caught the attention of magic essence created by (the god of the sun, awesomeness, and perfection/the moon goddess/the goddesses who work destiny/the elemental dragons/the slain titans who created the world/the banished titans who created the world/Autobot), which binds itself to you and makes you more powerful. Or I guess you could just be descended from something cool, or even be a mortal (though a mortal is gonna get BRUTALIZED in any combat against an Exalt).


What's the main mechanic?You have Attributes (which kinda work like ability scores in D&D) and Abilities (which kinda work like skills in D&D), which you'll roll together (a martial artist attacking something would roll "Dexterity" and "Martial Arts," plus or minus a few modifiers) and a suite of Charms (personal earth-shattering, miracle-working POWER!) that do a variety of things depending on what you pick out. Do you want to be able to dodge a thrown boulder? There's a Charm for that. Do you want to be able to block a thrown boulder? There's a Charm for that. Do you want to throw a boulder? You'll probably have to have a really high Strength+Thrown, but once you do... :smalltongue:


What's the best part about it?There's a rather epic feel to it; plus, the characters typically get a chance to really make an impact on the world around them. A Shadowrunner's probably not going to make a vast amount of difference (short of blowing up some buildings or the like) until he's rich enough to retire, but an Exalt starts out on par with Hercules, and goes up from there.


What are some folks' experiences playing this game?I've got a campaign log, if you're interested.


Being a crotchety old 3.5 D&D loon, is it a system best avoided by my curmudgeonly, simulationist ways?Once you learn how to go beyond the impossible and kick logic to the curb (i.e., "stunting"), you should be fine. :smalltongue:

EDIT: SO many ninjas!!! (curls up, whimpering) They just... came out of the TREES, man!

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-25, 10:29 PM
Never mind the ninjas, TheCountAlucard, you've been most helpful.

It would seem delving into the stinking pit of the internet will net me more information than I could possibly desire...

The Demented One
2010-02-25, 10:31 PM
Never mind the ninjas, TheCountAlucard, you've been most helpful.

It would seem delving into the stinking pit of the internet will net me more information than I could possibly desire...
Speaking of the stinking pit of the internet...

While 1d4chan's description of Exalted (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Exalted) is...well, what you would expect in terms of profanity...it is probably the single best introduction to the setting you could hope to get.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-25, 10:45 PM
The training of a young exalt (Abyssal caste) in the ways of Kung Fu. (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0271.html)

However, that's page 271 of the comic. So I recommend reading from page 1 (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html). That comic is what has actually made me want to play Exalted when I'm already fed up with general game mechanic due to a Werewolf/Vampires/Mages LARP group here at school.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-25, 10:48 PM
While 1d4chan's description of Exalted is...well, what you would expect in terms of profanity...it is probably the single best introduction to the setting you could hope to get.


“This place isn't going to maintain itself,” said the Primordials. “Let's make a bunch of servants to run the place for us! We'll give them intelligence, free will, and hopes and dreams, and then keep them as slaves for eternity! It'll be great!”One of my favorite parts. :smallamused: How could something like that go wrong?!? :smalltongue:

Krimm_Blackleaf
2010-02-25, 10:50 PM
Fixed that for you.

Come now, people! This is a forum! I desire discussion! Begin the babbling!

Discussion aside! I am going to have to insist upon Lochar's idea.

Edit: There's also the feeling I've gotten that I've become better at writing epic tales.

The_Snark
2010-02-25, 11:42 PM
Other people have covered the basics, so I'll just mention why I like it:

-The setting. There's a fairly detailed history, a large world, and an interesting cosmology. The latter two each have a series of books devoted to fleshing them out. You don't need them—the core book has a paragraph or two detailing the basic features of each nation and a bit more on other realms of existence, and you can always riff off that—but they're there if you have the money. For the most part, I've found them to be pretty interesting—I feel like the writers for each chapter sat down and said "Okay, what makes this nation interesting enough to write about? Why would you want to set a game there?" And if they came up with an answer they wrote a chapter about it, and if not they left it out, or gave it a couple pages in the chapter marked Misc at most. The fact that Creation has... six such books, plus four for other realms of existence (the celestial city of Yu-Shan, the demon realm of Malfeas, the Underworld, and the Wyld), should tell you that they've put a lot of effort into it. The world actually feels large.

The (default) present time in the setting is supposed to be a very eventful time, and it shows: there are a lot of NPC plans described, and a lot of NPCs with ambitions and nondescript plans. It really does feel sorta like looking at an actual setting that happens to have been frozen in time—even if your PCs never arrived, the world would have gone someplace.

Not necessarily the same place, mind you. But it's very far from a static setting.

-You play epic heroes. I know other people have hammered this home, but I'm not talking about the ability to kill a hundred soldiers with your bare hands, wrestle giants, and talk a king into giving you his crown, although the scope of possible deeds is certainly part of it. Both the fluff and the mechanics encourage you to play someone larger-than-life. Gilgamesh, Hercules, Cu Chulainn... there are a lot more archetypes that work well in Exalted, but it's harder to think of specific examples. Mighty warriors who occasionally flip out and kill people they shouldn't, hubris-laden rogues who steal secrets from the gods, a pious old man who attains enlightenment on a mountaintop and goes down to the valleys to spread his wisdom... those are the sort of character that Exalted does really well. This is not a game for playing an everyman; the more mythic, the better.

(This is the case with Solars, at least, who are the ones you'll be playing in the basic book. The other types of Exalted have slightly different themes, and slightly different mechanics to go along with it.)

-The mechanics are just plain fun. Sure, the system is clunky sometimes, and there's some broken stuff lying around, and minmaxing is very possible... but despite all that, it's fun to make a character who can pull the strings on nations, or command a ship so well that it holds together even when it has more holes in it than hulls remaining, or steal other people's names, or deliver a punch to their sense of self and watch them forget who they are.

Jerthanis
2010-02-26, 12:24 AM
I'll go into a little bit of detail on the mechanics to start with, since I didn't see if you mentioned playing Vampire or another Storyteller game.

You have Attributes, which will be somewhat familiar, Strength, Dexterity, Stamina and so on. These are rated between one and five (generally). You also have Abilities, which are a lot like skills, but share system space with combat abilities. These ratings are between zero and five. In each action you take, you combine one of the Attributes with one of the Abilities and roll that many d10s. You then count how many dice rolled 7, 8, or 9; these count as one "success". Each 10 counts as two "successes". Something easy, like guiding a horse through muddy terrain might require one success while something extremely difficult, such as guiding a galloping horse through a churning swamp in the middle of a hurricane might need five or more successes.

In general, you're playing a character for whom 5 successes is trivial (in their area of expertise).

In terms of the stories it tells, it tells extremely diverse, morally complex tales about power and its application, hard choices to save the world, the value and meaning of life, and other heavy issues. It explores these issues within the context of a kung fu steampunkish western fantasy (meaning both cowboys AND sword & sorcery) setting.

In an Exalted game I ran a while back, a character grew up in a brutal, paranoia-inducing big-brother state and cast what he saw as chains off, going to build his own nation on an oasis in the desert, calling all peoples who wished to live safe and free. People flocked to him and his incredible speeches of hope and freedom. Unfortunately, he was better at leading than organizing, and poor planning and bad luck led to a drought causing almost a third of his city-state's population to starve. When he entered a violent conflict with his neighboring nation, he brought them to their knees easily... but then he had to decide what to do with the survivors. He hated slavery, but the alternatives; such as putting them all to the sword or allowing them to foster continued guerrilla warfare against his nation; seemed worse!

When he compromised on the issue, and allowed his nation to take them as slaves as an "enforced religious experience" for them, he lost his temper and tore down his nation's halls of legislature with his bare hands.

The powerscale really isn't quite so phenomenal-cosmic as all that though. I'd say a starting Exalt character is about D&D level 11-12ish, and in a game of reasonable length you might hit a level 16 equivalent.

Lochar
2010-02-26, 12:26 AM
D&D 11-12th level? Wizard, possibly. You're just learning how to tell the rules of reality that "No, things work like I want them to, not like you say they have since time began."

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-26, 12:36 AM
Guh... the ghastly d10. So non-Platonic.

That aside, the base mechanic seems simple enough, but I hear many people talk of a clunkiness to the system, and a fairly steep learning curve. I can't imagine it's any more complex than 3.5 D&D, but what are the obstacles a newcomer should expect?

Jerthanis
2010-02-26, 12:41 AM
D&D 11-12th level? Wizard, possibly. You're just learning how to tell the rules of reality that "No, things work like I want them to, not like you say they have since time began."

Yeah, D&D is epic for the cool kids and not for the others. There are things you can do at 7th level in D&D with magic that you will never be able to do in Exalted no matter how hard you try.

But even for Fighters, level 11 means you can fall off a cliff and brush yourself off before running a marathon. It means you'd suffer more from the lack of sleep caused by staying up all night than from your wounds if you were attacked by an average army as you were preparing for bed. It means you can hack a lovecraftian entity apart from the inside and wonder what the big deal with it was supposed to be.

I'm just saying that you're not overestimating Exalted... you're underestimating D&D.


Guh... the ghastly d10. So non-Platonic.

That aside, the base mechanic seems simple enough, but I hear many people talk of a clunkiness to the system, and a fairly steep learning curve. I can't imagine it's any more complex than 3.5 D&D, but what are the obstacles a newcomer should expect?

Exalted combat follows an extremely simple 10 step resolution process. Charms, artifacts and abilities can modify and complicate almost any one of these steps.

I'm reasonably experienced with the system and the game flows like molasses whenever someone throws a bunch of attacks at once.

Edit: And to clarify, when I say it's extremely simple, I'm not being facetious. The ten steps boil down to "Declare attack type, declare defense type, roll attack, compare to static defense trait, calculate damage, roll damage, apply damage result", the complicated part is that there are aspects of the system that can potentially interact with almost any one of these 10 steps and turn something straightforward into something you're flipping pages and scratching your head about.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-26, 01:13 AM
Yeah, D&D is epic for the cool kids and not for the others. There are things you can do at 7th level in D&D with magic that you will never be able to do in Exalted no matter how hard you try.Be that as it may, most of the miracles in various religious and/or mythic texts (with the exception of raising someone from the dead) can be duplicated with Exalted's equivalent of "first-level spells." Feeding a nation with flakes that fall from the sky? Done. Parting the seas just so you can walk across? Easy. Evading damage by turning into a flock of birds? That's certainly doable. Heck, not mythic or anything, but remember Nimbus, from Dragonball? First-level spell. The higher-level stuff is set aside for setting rivers afire, making a place into Brigadoon, making mirror copies of someone, shooting someone a mile into the air only to drop a hill on them, causing your army to win a battle just by keeping your arms raised, and... Gattai!

Sure, spellcasting in Exalted doesn't go near the stupidity of epic spellcasting in D&D, but I still know which one I like more. :smallamused:

Fortuna
2010-02-26, 03:36 AM
How well would it work (purely out of curiosity) to run a game that took you from 1st level in D&D up to about 11th level and then switched to Exalted, using the Exalted setting the whole time?

sonofzeal
2010-02-26, 04:36 AM
How well would it work (purely out of curiosity) to run a game that took you from 1st level in D&D up to about 11th level and then switched to Exalted, using the Exalted setting the whole time?
I dread for the life expectancy of a lvl1 D&D character in the Exalted setting.

Might be better to play D&D up to lvl 20, in whatever setting you want, then switch to Exalted rules for epic play.

The_Snark
2010-02-26, 04:42 AM
How well would it work (purely out of curiosity) to run a game that took you from 1st level in D&D up to about 11th level and then switched to Exalted, using the Exalted setting the whole time?

Pretty poorly, I suspect. Magic in D&D and magic in Exalted don't map very well at all, so you're going to have to toss all D&D spellcasting—for that matter, almost all magic or supernatural stuff that would normally be available to D&D characters—and improvise. someone felt like playing a martial artist they might be able to carefully select martial maneuvers to fit a Terrestrial martial arts style. Unfortunately, they'd then be locked into some (slightly sub-par) Charm choices upon Exalting. There's no good D&D analogue to thaumaturgy or sorcery, and almost all magic items would have to go.

If everybody agreed to play mundane characters—fighters, rogues, scouts, whatever—and the DM is okay with homebrewing stats to fit any supernatural enemies they cross (which wouldn't be often, because most creatures with supernatural abilities are quite dangerous to mortals) then it'd be simpler. The tone is going to be different, though, and maybe a little jarring. Exalted's combat rules are fairly dangerous for mortals; this is a marked contrast to D&D, where you can laugh off swords and arrows after getting a few levels under your belt. To me, at least, it'd feel jarring to be able to do that. Mortals in Exalted are generally not superpowered individuals; as Jerthanis points out, D&D characters start edging into being just that as they reach mid-levels.

Exalted does have rules for playing heroic mortals and converting them once they Exalt. They're not especially interesting rules, and I don't think I'd want to run through eleven levels' worth of play with them, but they're serviceable if you want to have a prelude running up to the characters' Exaltations.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-26, 05:45 AM
Speaking of the stinking pit of the internet...

While 1d4chan's description of Exalted (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Exalted) is...well, what you would expect in terms of profanity...it is probably the single best introduction to the setting you could hope to get.

It may be the sleep deprivation, but I'm laughing so much at this I'm having difficulty typing this. I definitely have to convince someone to run this now.

How much experience with it would you need before you ran a game?

Lochar
2010-02-26, 06:44 AM
Not as much as you think, but I'd go into it knowing that everyone's first characters are going to have some funny issues, because it is everyone's first characters.

I think for new characters, there's a couple of things that make things a bit easier. You get 10 Charms by default. Pick up 3-4 combat Charms, 3 or so social Charms, and scatter the rest among what looks interesting for your character. That way, you're not stuck doing nothing when your circle(group) are doing something out of the build of your character.

Nothing sucks more than building an Essence 2 Dawn Caste (The mighty warriors), with nothing but melee and archery charms, then coming to realize. Oh ****, I get about 3 dice to try to talk to people. And I have nothing to make it better.

grautry
2010-02-26, 07:26 AM
Funny Exalted Quotes (http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?QuotesofGoodness)

About that, what's with all the jokes about Gem?

The Demented One
2010-02-26, 08:09 AM
About that, what's with all the jokes about Gem?
The city of Gem, in canon, is about to be destroyed by like a half-dozen different things.

Indon
2010-02-26, 09:50 AM
The training of a young exalt (Abyssal caste) in the ways of Kung Fu. (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0271.html)

However, that's page 271 of the comic. So I recommend reading from page 1 (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html). That comic is what has actually made me want to play Exalted when I'm already fed up with general game mechanic due to a Werewolf/Vampires/Mages LARP group here at school.

I'd like to second Keychain of Creation.

It showcases Exalted in the same sense that OOTS showcases D&D.


Edit: And to clarify, when I say it's extremely simple, I'm not being facetious. The ten steps boil down to "Declare attack type, declare defense type, roll attack, compare to static defense trait, calculate damage, roll damage, apply damage result", the complicated part is that there are aspects of the system that can potentially interact with almost any one of these 10 steps and turn something straightforward into something you're flipping pages and scratching your head about.

And this, in turn, is because a major mechanical facet of being an Exalt is changing how things work, because Essence kinda works by overriding the universe in the user's favor.

And Exalts have a ton of diverse, flavorful... and occasionally even confusing... ways to do so.

WalkingTarget
2010-02-26, 10:35 AM
A few examples of how super-awesome your Charms are:

Athletics - a normal person with 1 point in this is described as being able to keep their balance on an icy street. A Charm, Graceful Crane Stance, with a 1 point prerequisite means that, for a scene, you automatically succeed on any balance test as long as your supported by a surface at least as strong and wide as a human hair.

Awareness - 5 point prereq, so not really easy, but this is one of my favorites: Surprise Anticipation Method. If you have any essence left (think magic points) and aren't completely incapacitated and something is putting you in mortal danger and it's possible to notice it (being asleep doesn't prevent it), you do so. You are allowed to put this in combos, which means that you can use it along with...

Melee - Heavenly Guardian Defense needs 4 points of the skill, as long as you're armed and aware of an incoming attack (which, if you combo it with the above charm, makes it unlikely that you'll be caught by surprise), you block it. Completely. Perfectly Even if it's something that shouldn't be blockable, like a thrown mountain.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-26, 10:44 AM
...Awareness - 5 point prereq, so not really easy, but this is one of my favorites: Surprise Anticipation Method. If you have any essence left (think magic points) and aren't completely incapacitated and something is putting you in mortal danger and it's possible to notice it (being asleep doesn't prevent it), you do so. You are allowed to put this in combos, which means that you can use it along with...

Melee - Heavenly Guardian Defense needs 4 points of the skill, as long as you're armed and aware of an incoming attack (which, if you combo it with the above charm, makes it unlikely that you'll be caught by surprise), you block it. Completely. Perfectly Even if it's something that shouldn't be blockable, like a thrown mountain.

So if everyone uses both of those then the game grinds to a halt because they are all immortal? Or am I missing something?

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-26, 10:50 AM
So if everyone uses both of those then the game grinds to a halt because they are all immortal? Or am I missing something?

This combo requires 1) motes, 2) willpower and 3) that you not use any of your awesome world-shattering powers other than these (unless they are combo'd with those two, which makes the combo more expensive).

Also, it requires Awareness 5, which not everyone is willing to have.

Also, someone might still send a Total Annihilation your way (think a sorcerous nuclear warhead powered by the sun of Hell), which cannot be parried. Ever. No, not even with Heavenly Guardian Defense. Even though the latter can block a mundane nuclear warhead and explosion.

Indon
2010-02-26, 10:50 AM
So if everyone uses both of those then the game grinds to a halt because they are all immortal? Or am I missing something?

They cost resources - specifically, it costs motes of essence, which is basically your character's mana.

Exalts can do crazy awesome things - and in fact, awesomeness can even directly generate a bit of essence for you, so the more awesome you are the longer you can go - but eventually an Exalt can will could will probably run out of resources.

This isn't including the First Age Solar charm "Zeal", which explicitly overrides abilities like Heavenly Guardian Defense.

WalkingTarget
2010-02-26, 10:53 AM
So if everyone uses both of those then the game grinds to a halt because they are all immortal? Or am I missing something?

You can't keep it up indefinitely. HGD is you're panic button to save against somebody's OMGWTFBBQ mega-kill-you-dead combo move.

Indon
2010-02-26, 10:54 AM
Also, someone might still send a Total Annihilation your way (think a sorcerous nuclear warhead powered by the sun of Hell), which cannot be parried. Ever. No, not even with Heavenly Guardian Defense. Even though the latter can block a mundane nuclear warhead and explosion.

Could Spell-Shattering Palm destroy that? I forget the limits of that charm.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-26, 10:55 AM
This combo requires 1) motes, 2) willpower and 3) that you not use any of your awesome world-shattering powers other than these (unless they are combo'd with those two, which makes the combo more expensive).

Also, it requires Awareness 5, which not everyone is willing to have.

Also, someone might still send a Total Annihilation your way (think a sorcerous nuclear warhead powered by the sun of Hell), which cannot be parried. Ever. No, not even with Heavenly Guardian Defense. Even though the latter can block a mundane nuclear warhead and explosion.

They cost resources - specifically, it costs motes of essence, which is basically your character's mana.

Exalts can do crazy awesome things - and in fact, awesomeness can even directly generate a bit of essence for you, so the more awesome you are the longer you can go - but eventually an Exalt can will could will probably run out of resources.

This isn't including the First Age Solar charm "Zeal", which explicitly overrides abilities like Heavenly Guardian Defense.

I thought that might be the case, but thanks for clearing it up. I just finished gorging on Keychain of Creation (which is bad because it means there's no more :smallfrown:) and I am now definitely going to be playing Exalted in the near future, one way or another.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-26, 10:56 AM
Could Spell-Shattering Palm destroy that? I forget the limits of that charm.

It can, but the results will be catastrophic. Not as catastrophic as an actual TA blast, but still quite destructive.

Indon
2010-02-26, 10:58 AM
It can, but the results will be catastrophic. Not as catastrophic as an actual TA blast, but still quite destructive.

Well, if you comboed Spell-Shattering Palm with a perfect defense, you could then SSP the initial attack then dodge/parry the resulting essence kersplosion.

randomhero00
2010-02-26, 10:59 AM
I love exalted for its feel and fluff, which is no small thing. But the dice/mechanics of it generally stink. Well, its not that bad, but its not the best of the games out there... that said it is still one of my top 5, so that's saying a lot for the cool factor.

Just browsing this thread it looks like most of the things have been mentioned.

The technology in exalted is really cool. Its like high tech fantasy devices. You use part of your essence/power to run such devices. Anything from artifact swords to flippin mechwalkers and flying air ships with plasma cannons. I don't think I've ever seen such a world that blended high tech stuff into fantasy so well (without going all scifi.)


So if everyone uses both of those then the game grinds to a halt because they are all immortal? Or am I missing something?

Huh? not sure what your question is. The game never grinds to a halt. But this brings up an interesting point, Exalted is sooo not DnD, there is no true "RAW" the same way there is in DnD. Its all up to your storyteller where the rule of cool wins. So I think what you're getting at is, what if two dudes use to immaculate techniques on each other, one a counter? Well its up to your storyteller completely. There could be an explosion, if its a higher ranking dude than you he may win out, you might roll, it might trigger something else..etc. If your question was of their life, Exalted can still die. Many, many have already, as part of the backstory of the game.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-26, 11:00 AM
Well, if you comboed Spell-Shattering Palm with a perfect defense, you could then SSP the initial attack then dodge/parry the resulting essence kersplosion.

If you have a perfect defense that is not a parry, such as Seven Shadow Evasion, you don't need Spell-Shattering Palm.

Indon
2010-02-26, 11:05 AM
If you have a perfect defense that is not a parry, such as Seven Shadow Evasion, you don't need Spell-Shattering Palm.

I'm sure there're undodgable kill-you-dead magic, as well, and you never know when the GM might have an Akuma Sidereal throwing around insidiously corrupted custom sorcery at you.

Plus, using Spell-Shattering Palm in conjunction with Heavenly Guardian Defense in that way would be sexy-awesome.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-26, 11:07 AM
Using Spell-Shattering Palm, however, means you are also immune to the resulting shattering, just like the user of an appropriate Countermagic spell.

kamikasei
2010-02-26, 11:08 AM
Its all up to your storyteller where the rule of cool wins. So I think what you're getting at is, what if two dudes use to immaculate techniques on each other, one a counter? Well its up to your storyteller completely.

Well, no, no more than anything else. Perfect defenses trump perfect attacks.

randomhero00
2010-02-26, 11:12 AM
Well, no, no more than anything else.

Dunno specifically about perfect attack vs perfect defense, but the rest of what I said is true. White Wolf games in general are way more rule of cool oriented than RAW oriented. At least that's what I remember when reading it.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-26, 11:12 AM
A few examples of how super-awesome your Charms are:Martial Arts - with three dots in it and a decent Dexterity, your punch might knock a mortal back a few feet. The Charm "Heaven Thunder Hammer," on the other hand, guarantees knockback of one yard for every point of pre-soak damage. As an example, I once punched an Abyssal while using this Charm. With no other Charms active, sent her flying sixteen yards. Its upgrade, "Horizon-Hurling Tactic," requires Martial Arts 5 and Essence 5; it throws the enemy twenty miles.

And that's not counting the freaky Sidereal ones, where you kick someone's soul off, or punch them so hard that they turn into a duck, or be so good at kung-fu that you cause a sniper to shoot his buddy who's in the room with him.

Resistance - with some dots in this one, you have decent odds of withstanding poison, and can probably do something strenuous activity for a few hours. With "Immunity to Everything Technique," you can send your cyanide sandwich back to the chef, "because it doesn't have enough of that delicious arsenic seasoning," and ask the waitress for more ground glass in your cola (which is tainted with the Ebola virus). Oh, and when you go to the bathroom, the toilet paper is poison ivy.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-26, 11:15 AM
Resistance - with some dots in this one, you have decent odds of withstanding poison, and can probably do something strenuous activity for a few hours. With "Immunity to Everything Technique," you can send your cyanide sandwich back to the chef, "because it doesn't have enough of that delicious arsenic seasoning," and ask the waitress for more ground glass in your cola (which is tainted with the Ebola virus).

It also allows you to summon a Glorious Solar Plate out of nowhere.

Indon
2010-02-26, 11:19 AM
Using Spell-Shattering Palm, however, means you are also immune to the resulting shattering, just like the user of an appropriate Countermagic spell.

Oh, good point. So it's not necessary, the awesomeness is built-in.

It's other people who need the perfect defenses, heh.

Okay, here's a thought.

Would it be possible to combine spirit-attack-capability charms, with defense and counterattack charms, with homing-attack types of charms, to be able to, say, attack the spirit of a bolt of lightning that tries to hit you?

WalkingTarget
2010-02-26, 11:24 AM
This isn't including the First Age Solar charm "Zeal", which explicitly overrides abilities like Heavenly Guardian Defense.

This is a contested point. Zeal says that it ensures that when the Solar channels a Willpower through a Virtue, their action succeeds perfectly, regardless of defense.

HGD defends perfectly regardless of whether or not the attack is unblockable.

The (first edition) rules spell out that if an unstoppable attack meets and immovable defense, the defense wins. This still seems to be the intent in the 2e main book with Perfect Defenses, but that book had removed Perfect Attacks in favor of ones that simply rule out a specific type of defense (unblockable, undodgeable) so didn't use those exact terms (Zeal was added in a later sourcebook about the mythical First Age when Solars ruled Creation). HGD is specifically usable to block even things that can't be blocked. Zeal would make any attack unblockable, undodgeable, or whatever else, but HGD can block anyway since that's its purpose.

I always saw Zeal as being meant to show that a high-Essence Solar can do anything if he/she really cares about it. It's a permanent quality of the Solar, not something I see as trumping specific powers. Zeal is extremely overpowered otherwise (i.e. I think it was poorly written).

Bigtime Edit - poking around in White Wolf's errata pages, I found this (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Answers01#Perfect%20Defenses%20and %20Attacks) tidbit:

"In the case of attacks which state that they defeat even perfect defenses, such as the shockwave produced by a Soulbreaker Orb, this applies only to perfect defenses which do not possess the 'block the unblockable / dodge the undodgeable' clause, such as certain Dragon-Blooded, Alchemical, and Martial Arts Charms." So HGD still works against Zeal-powered attacks (and I'd assume things like Total Annihilation, though I don't have the wording for that spell available - only wiki pages)

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-26, 11:25 AM
It also allows you to summon a Glorious Solar Plate out of nowhere.Yeah, yeah... truth be told, Resistance seems to go really hard in a bunch of different directions at the same time. Some of the Charms summon armor, or make it more convenient to wear. Some of them outright prevent damage altogether. Some of them focus on giving you more health levels, negating having your arm torn off, not caring about poison or disease, and anime-battle recovery (i.e., slap a band-aid on it, and the next day you're ready to fight again). Some of them let you recover Essence and Willpower when you get slapped in the face. Some give you an insatiable battle rage.

Really, Resistance has a pretty diverse Charmset, at least for Solars, anyway...

Tengu_temp
2010-02-26, 11:37 AM
Really, Resistance has a pretty diverse Charmset, at least for Solars, anyway...

That's because first edition had two abilities in its place: Resistance and Endurance. They realized they're redundant in second edition and added them together, putting some of the charms that remained into a new ability that came in Endurance's place, Integrity.

Similarily, first edition had Brawl and Martial Arts instead of just MA. What used to be Brawl is the Solar Hero Style now, and they added War to fill in the gap.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-26, 12:23 PM
Kicking people's souls off, and erasing mountains (read it somewhere) make Sidereals sound much better than the other types of Exalted.

Now I haven't read anything into them yet, but just compared to others, they seem inherently more powerful. Are they?

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-26, 12:37 PM
Now I haven't read anything into them yet, but just compared to others, they seem inherently more powerful. Are they?Solars are generally more powerful than Sidereals, but Sidereals cheat.

To clarify, a lot of their fate-reweaving Charms make it harder for you to be awesome. When you roll for stuff, a 7 or higher on the die is considered a success, but a Sidereal can make it so that only a 9 or higher is considered a success.

Plus, they're ninjas.

Kyeudo
2010-02-26, 12:45 PM
Similarily, first edition had Brawl and Martial Arts instead of just MA. What used to be Brawl is the Solar Hero Style now, and they added War to fill in the gap.

They didn't so much as add War as pull War out of Performance, since Performance was doing double duty in First Edition.


Kicking people's souls off, and erasing mountains (read it somewhere) make Sidereals sound much better than the other types of Exalted.

Now I haven't read anything into them yet, but just compared to others, they seem inherently more powerful. Are they?

Hahaha. No. Sidereals have the WEAKEST native Charms of all Celestial Exalted. They still blow Dragon-Blooded out of the water, but a Sidereals Charms are overcosted or otherwise limited compared to their Solar analogs. They get some fun stuff that only they can do (like a Dodge Charm that lets them strap an entire city to their back and move it as far as they can run), but they can't exactly go toe to toe with a Lunar of equivalent experience and expect to come out on top.

However, they can learn Sidereal Maritial Arts relatively easy (they can learn from a text book if they have to, Solars and Abyssals need a Sidereal Sifu to train them), and Sidereal Martial Arts make up a lot of the difference, especialy once they get a Sutra running to offset the ridiculous mote cost. A Sidereal Martial Artist can clone himself, literally punch the eyes out of your head and then juggle them for kicks and giggles, karate chop a spell in half, make himself into a temporary psuedo-Primordial, or attack everyone on a continent the size of Soviet Russia in a single instant.



One thing that some people have commented on, the slow speed of Exalted play, only shows up at a real table or if you run the game through real time chat. In Play-by-Post games, Exalted flows smooth as butter, unlike D&D, which grinds to a crawl as soon as you say "roll inititive." With plenty of time to think and an automated dice roller to elimate the need to throw 20+ dice five times in a row, your game goes as fast as people post.

Indon
2010-02-26, 01:18 PM
Hahaha. No. Sidereals have the WEAKEST native Charms of all Celestial Exalted. They still blow Dragon-Blooded out of the water, but a Sidereals Charms are overcosted or otherwise limited compared to their Solar analogs.

I dunno. I'd say in terms of raw power, even DBs have more potent charms, for obviously less cost.

DBs are the weakest type of Exalt because of all their other limitations - their limited Essence pools, the difficulty they experience with out-of-aspect charms, their poor access to sorcery and supernatural martial arts, and their hard Essence score cap.

WalkingTarget
2010-02-26, 01:22 PM
I may not be up on current events since I only played in 1ed games, but is there still the limit on Sidereals that prevents new Charm creation beyond new martial arts forms while other Exalts are free to develop what they want?

Indon
2010-02-26, 01:23 PM
I may not be up on current events since I only played in 1ed games, but is there still the limit on Sidereals that prevents new Charm creation beyond new martial arts forms while other Exalts are free to develop what they want?

Yes. Sidereals remain unable to develop new charms, as their charms were created and given to them by the Maidens.

A Sidereal could theoretically convince one or more of the Maidens to create new charms for them, but aside from that, they're SOL.

WalkingTarget
2010-02-26, 02:36 PM
Question about Total Annihilation: I found a bit about it on a WW wiki page, how often is its damage applied/how much damage does it do? The errata page I found earlier would mean that you can use HGD against it, but you'd have to continue to use it every damage interval for AoE/Environmental effects until you get clear of the blast radius.

The minimum duration seems to be 25 ticks, but is damage applied every tick or what?

Drascin
2010-02-26, 04:48 PM
That's because first edition had two abilities in its place: Resistance and Endurance. They realized they're redundant in second edition and added them together, putting some of the charms that remained into a new ability that came in Endurance's place, Integrity.

Similarily, first edition had Brawl and Martial Arts instead of just MA. What used to be Brawl is the Solar Hero Style now, and they added War to fill in the gap.

...so that's where all the inconsistencies between the character sheet and the abilities in the actual book came from? Well damn. I was thinking I was going crazy. But why does my pdf copy of the 2nd Ed manual have the 1st edition sheet, I wonder...?

Jerthanis
2010-02-26, 05:13 PM
I dunno. I'd say in terms of raw power, even DBs have more potent charms, for obviously less cost.
.

mmm.... nope. Compare Impeding the Flow to Portentious Comet Deflecting Mode. Walking Outside of Fate vs Dragon Shroud Technique. Wanting And Fearing Prayer vs Anything ever. Sidereals are solid contenders on the Celestial playing field even without their martial arts. The fact that Dragonbloods can nova for more dice occasionally doesn't make them more potent than Sidereals.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-26, 05:43 PM
So the main book mostly concerns the Solar exalted, and various expansions provide rules for playing various other kinds of exalted, whom fit different niches?

Could you play in a mixed game, say with one Solar, one Sidereal, a few Alchemicals, etc? Or is each type of exalted designed to be played in a team composed of other similar exalted?

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-26, 05:45 PM
So the main book mostly concerns the Solar exalted, and various expansions provide rules for playing various other kinds of exalted, whom fit different niches?Exactly.


Could you play in a mixed game, say with one Solar, one Sidereal, a few Alchemicals, etc?Yes, you could. However, there'd be a difference in power level, even if you tossed a bunch of experience points into the laps the not-Solars.

kamikasei
2010-02-26, 06:26 PM
...so that's where all the inconsistencies between the character sheet and the abilities in the actual book came from? Well damn. I was thinking I was going crazy. But why does my pdf copy of the 2nd Ed manual have the 1st edition sheet, I wonder...?

Because White Wolf writers all have the Immunity from Editors Technique charm and spam it constantly.

Kylarra
2010-02-26, 06:32 PM
Yes, you could. However, there'd be a difference in power level, even if you tossed a bunch of experience points into the laps the not-Solars.Actually, with the exception of dragon-blooded, your other exalts have comparable power to solars, just manifested in different ways.

Drascin
2010-02-26, 06:35 PM
Because White Wolf writers all have the Immunity from Editors Technique charm and spam it constantly.

Yeah, seems so. Time to head to google and find the actual 2nd edition one, I guess...

Ah well. I had been trying to build a couple sample characters with one of my tabletop players, to see if we could get the hang of the character creation process, and we were getting rather befuddled. I think we'll have to remake his prospective character's Ability distribution...

Lochar
2010-02-26, 06:37 PM
This is the sheet I usually use when building. Stolen from Demented One.


Name:
Exalt Type and Caste:

Motivation:

Background:

Attributes:

Physical:
Strength: ●
Dexterity: ●
Stamina: ●

Social :
Charisma: ●
Manipulation: ●
Appearance: ●

Mental:
Perception: ●
Intelligence: ●
Wits: ●

Abilities:

Archery:
Martial Arts:
Melee:
Thrown:
War:

Integrity:
Performance:
Presence:
Resistance:
Survival:

Craft:
Investigate:
Lore:
Medicine:
Occult:

Athletics:
Awareness:
Dodge:
Larceny:
Stealth:

Bureaucracy:
Linguistics:
Ride:
Sail:
Socialize:

Backgrounds:

Artifacts and Equipment:

Charms:


Join Combat:

Defenses:
Dodge DV:
Parry DV:

Soak: B/L

Health:
-0 [ ]
-1 [ ] [ ]
-2 [ ] [ ]
-4 [ ]
Incapacitated [ ]

Mental Defenses:
Dodge MDV:
Parry MDV:

Virtues:
Compassion: ●
Conviction: ●
Temperance: ●
Valor: ●

Virtue Flaw:

Intimacies:


Willpower:

Essence:
Permanent: ●●
Personal:
Peripheral:
Committed:


Flaws:


Bonus Points:

WalkingTarget
2010-02-26, 07:10 PM
Yeah, seems so. Time to head to google and find the actual 2nd edition one, I guess...

Ah well. I had been trying to build a couple sample characters with one of my tabletop players, to see if we could get the hang of the character creation process, and we were getting rather befuddled. I think we'll have to remake his prospective character's Ability distribution...

Aren't these (http://www.white-wolf.com/downloads.php?category_id=143) the correct ones?

Drascin
2010-02-26, 07:24 PM
Aren't these (http://www.white-wolf.com/downloads.php?category_id=143) the correct ones?

Indeed they are, and thanks. However, funnily enough, the ones here (http://www.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?line=extras) aren't, despite it theorethically being the official Exalted section in White Wolf :smalltongue:.

Axelgear
2010-02-26, 08:05 PM
Awww, did I miss out on the big "Why Exalted Is So Awesome" frenzy?

Jerthanis
2010-02-26, 09:28 PM
Yeah, seems so. Time to head to google and find the actual 2nd edition one, I guess...

Ah well. I had been trying to build a couple sample characters with one of my tabletop players, to see if we could get the hang of the character creation process, and we were getting rather befuddled. I think we'll have to remake his prospective character's Ability distribution...

The most important two pages in the book for character creation are pages 84 and 85. It's got all the numbers distribution in all the areas as well as the bonus point costs for various things. When you finish with those two pages, all you really need to get from the rest of the book would be selecting charms that go along with your most important skills and selecting a virtue flaw.

Terraoblivion
2010-02-27, 01:18 AM
Because White Wolf writers all have the Immunity from Editors Technique charm and spam it constantly.

But wouldn't that require that they have editors to begin with?

Fortuna
2010-02-27, 03:58 AM
You guys convinced me. I bought the thing, even though every bone in my body cried out to actually do something useful with that money.

Thanks, guys.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-27, 07:17 AM
Awww, did I miss out on the big "Why Exalted Is So Awesome" frenzy?

Please feel free to share your wisdom.


You guys convinced me. I bought the thing, even though every bone in my body cried out to actually do something useful with that money.

Thanks, guys.

"Time you enjoyed wasting is not wasted time" - T. S. Elliot

Drascin
2010-02-27, 07:18 AM
By the way, a question that I couldn't help but think yesterday as we were working on his character - what other manuals should I have other than the corebook? In particular, he seemed to be a bit dissapointed on the Artifact selection, and I'm very much not confident in my ability to homebrew something balanced yet for his character (who he intends to be a fast, snake-themed Dawn caste, while almost everything Artifact in the manual seemed to be Daiklaives and similar Xbox-sized weapons), so any manual that pads the selection a bit would be nice.

My other player, he's still not decided, but he seems to be interested in playing a Twilight caste Sorcerer, so something that adds a bit to spell selection would be cool too.

Lochar
2010-02-27, 07:22 AM
You want the first three Books of Sorcery.

1: Wonder's of the Lost Age
2: White and Black Treatises
3: Oadenol's Codex.

1 and 3 are artifact books, 2 is all the spells you'll ever need.

horngeek
2010-02-27, 08:26 AM
Luckily for him, Snake Style is in the main manual.

Now, if he had (say) wanted Celestial Monkey Style, he would have needed Scrolls of the Monk.

Overshee
2010-02-27, 08:28 AM
You want the first three Books of Sorcery.

1: Wonder's of the Lost Age
2: White and Black Treatises
3: Oadenol's Codex.

1 and 3 are artifact books, 2 is all the spells you'll ever need.

(excellent books, IMHO. WW was very creative and did a good job with them)

Terraoblivion
2010-02-27, 09:48 AM
Scroll of the Monk is also a good buy, has a lot more martial arts styles. They are not exactly based very well though. There four books are the major ones for solar games, while the corresponding Manual of Exalted Power is of course needed for everything else. But really in general i like most of the books published for this game, but they are definitely secondary to the four mentioned above in importance.

The Demented One
2010-02-27, 11:54 AM
If you want to get Scroll of the Monk, wait for errata to come out. The low-level styles in it are good, but the higher level styles are...going to be fixed by mechanically competent writers soon.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-27, 12:06 PM
If you want to get Scroll of the Monk, wait for errata to come out. The low-level styles in it are good, but the higher level styles are...going to be fixed by mechanically competent writers soon.

So is the Exalted philosophy basically "do what's awesome, because someone else will fix it later".

Arcanoi
2010-02-27, 12:11 PM
And the Golden Rule is that if the Fix isn't awesome enough, you can fix it Awesomer.

PinkysBrain
2010-02-27, 12:18 PM
I find it strange that this can go on for 3 pages without someone mentioning some more about the virtue flaw ... I haven't played it, but I know enough about WW games to understand that they build this kind of thing into each and every one of their games (ie. humanity&frenzy in Vampire, I did play nWoD, virtue flaw/limit break in Exalted etc. etc.) and that it does tend to impact game play.

So how exactly does it impact the role playing in Exalted?

The Demented One
2010-02-27, 12:31 PM
So how exactly does it impact the role playing in Exalted?
Not too much.

Solars and Lunars occasionally go off and do horrible stupid things, a la Achilles or Gilgamesh.

Sidereals make hilariously bad plans, especially when they gather in groups. KUUUUUUUUKLA!

Dragon-Bloods really don't get hit by it at all.

Abyssals neither, as long as they're doing what they're supposed to. If you wanna be a brooding anti-hero, though, you are gonna get slapped across the face by Oblivion.

Infernals can avoid it by acting like Bond villains. Monologuing, death traps, that kind of thing.

Alchemicals don't have it at all, they just have Clarity. Makes them efficient, emotionless machines.

Kylarra
2010-02-27, 12:35 PM
I find it strange that this can go on for 3 pages without someone mentioning some more about the virtue flaw ... I haven't played it, but I know enough about WW games to understand that they build this kind of thing into each and every one of their games (ie. humanity&frenzy in Vampire, I did play nWoD, virtue flaw/limit break in Exalted etc. etc.) and that it does tend to impact game play.

So how exactly does it impact the role playing in Exalted?Frankly I find my players go off and do horribly stupid things on their own, so the limit break is a good chance for them to see what it looks like on the outside...

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 12:47 PM
Sidereals make hilariously bad plans, especially when they gather in groups. KUUUUUUUUKLA!

Not only do they make stupid plans, they promptly execute them with extreme competence.

For example: the Usurpation.

Drascin
2010-02-27, 01:21 PM
For example: the Usurpation.

In their defense, from all I've read, somebody had to remove the Solars' heads from their asses before the world went to pot again. The Usurpation was really, really needed. Problem was that, as said, the collective effectiveness of a group of Sidereals is inversely proportional to the number of Sidereals in the group - and with ALL sidereals in it, well, what exactly did you expect :smalltongue:.

Sanguine
2010-02-27, 01:23 PM
In their defense, from all I've read, somebody had to remove the Solars' heads from their asses before the world went to pot again. The Usurpation was really, really needed. Problem was that, as said, the collective effectiveness of a group of Sidereals is inversely proportional to the number of Sidereals in the group - and with ALL sidereals in it, well, what exactly did you expect :smalltongue:.

You know I kind of think the Gold Path might have been a better option. Of course I may have a biased view of things.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 01:23 PM
In their defense, from all I've read, somebody had to remove the Solars' heads from their asses before the world went to pot again. The Usurpation was really, really needed. Problem was that, as said, the collective effectiveness of a group of Sidereals is inversely proportional to the number of Sidereals in the group - and with ALL sidereals in it, well, what exactly did you expect :smalltongue:.

If Lytek had decided to, you know, tell anyone about the Great Curse, the Siddies probably could've handled it without having to kill everyone.

The Demented One
2010-02-27, 01:32 PM
Sidereals, in summary:



Sidereal #1: So. These weird, Autochthon spawned Exalts are stomping all over the place. What do we do?

Sidereal #2: Hrm. Maybe get in touch with some of the more powerful Solar circles out there, and arm them with better training and equipment?

Sidereal #1: That might spiral out of control quickly. Perhaps we sh-

A crowd of Sidereals bursts into the room, Chejop Kejak crowd surfing on top of them, and several small gods of alcohol being passed around

Sidereal #3: OMG Mesoamerican Robot Cyborgs!

Sidereal #4: Release the Kukla!

Sidereal's 6, 7, 8: Kukla, Kukla, Kukla, Kukla!

Chejop Kejak: KUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKLA!

Sidereal #1: See, that's a good plan. Solars? I mean, really now.

PinkysBrain
2010-02-27, 02:03 PM
If Lytek had decided to, you know, tell anyone about the Great Curse, the Siddies probably could've handled it without having to kill everyone.
Isn't the knowledge about virtue flaws internalized in the setting? Knowing that it comes from a curse seems rather tangential to dealing with it, for that you only simply need to know how situations affect your judgement.

Even if the curse prevents you from seeing the causes of your own behaviour and what triggers it, any companions with you for long enough should be able to put two and two together unless they are complete idiots.

Drascin
2010-02-27, 02:10 PM
If Lytek had decided to, you know, tell anyone about the Great Curse, the Siddies probably could've handled it without having to kill everyone.

Yeah, if they had known, maybe they could have done something. But as it was, the only thing they knew was that their bosses were turning into (more of) a horde of destiny-breaking, god-empowered manchildren prone to destructive temper tantrums and mad science that killed hundreds. Thinking that, they had to do something. And then, when they all got together to see what to do about it, the usual Sidereal "efficiency" struck, and we all know how that went :smalltongue:.

But yeah, I figure the day someone, anyone, finds out about the Great Curse, Lytek is going to have to field some pretty angry questions :smallamused:.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 02:11 PM
Only two beings (native to Creation) know about the Curse. They're both Celestial gods and are not telling. Nobody knows that the violent mood swings Exalted all share have anything to do with a curse, they think it's just part of being Exalted.

Abyssals and Green Sun Princes probably know about the Curse, because theirs have been lifted by their masters. But no, it is certainly not common knowledge.

People might be able to work out their friend's Virtue Flaws after a long time of being around them and seeing them Limit Break. People generally don't figure out their own Virtue Flaws, because it seems perfectly normal to them - it's who they are.

Of course, one effect of the Curse is pride and ignorance of your own failings... so even if your friend told you "Hey, dude, when you see lots of suffering without intervening you suddenly turn into a psychopath", you probably wouldn't listen.

Selrahc
2010-02-27, 02:26 PM
Indeed they are, and thanks. However, funnily enough, the ones here (http://www.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?line=extras) aren't, despite it theorethically being the official Exalted section in White Wolf :smalltongue:.

A guy called Mr Gone makes character sheets for all the White Wolf games, which are almost always better than the ones released with the games. Check the exalted section.
http://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/

Jerthanis
2010-02-27, 03:03 PM
In their defense, from all I've read, somebody had to remove the Solars' heads from their asses before the world went to pot again. The Usurpation was really, really needed. Problem was that, as said, the collective effectiveness of a group of Sidereals is inversely proportional to the number of Sidereals in the group - and with ALL sidereals in it, well, what exactly did you expect :smalltongue:.

The Usurpation saved the world. It was on the brink of complete destruction in a firestorm a thousand times worse than you can imagine.

It also doomed the world to almost certain destruction a millennium or two later.

The setting would be boring if bronze faction Sidereals were "the bad guys". Of course, you can field a pretty good reason why each group is the true hero of Creation, even the Abyssals and Infernals.

Lochar
2010-02-27, 03:46 PM
The Bronze faction weren't the bad guys. They were pragmatic. Gold Prophecy: "small chance of fixing the Solars and the Golden Age of the Solars continues on. Very large chance of the Solars taking it the wrong way, and basically becoming Infernal/Abyssals on their own."

Remember, in Glories there is an Essence 6 Charm that allows the Solar to name a Yozi and basically become the Akuma of that Yozi without the Akuma part.

There was too large of a chance of blowing up Creation for the Bronze Factionists. Their Prophecy said "**** Creation slightly now, and it'll continue going."

Terraoblivion
2010-02-27, 09:48 PM
Yeah, to be honest. For all their dickishness, i have ultimately come to the conclusion that the bronze faction are the better of the two sidereal factions. On one side we have a group that wants to keep things going the way they are and strengthen Creation to withstand all the threats against it. On the other hand we have a group that wants to brainwash and control some of the most powerful beings in the world and then arm and train them so they can better fulfill their duties.

Lochar
2010-02-27, 10:42 PM
And obviously, brainwash and controlling some of the most powerful people works so well.

Sophismata
2010-02-27, 11:01 PM
Remember, Solar have access to an integrity charm that will shatter any and all long-term compulsions on their person, and can be used at any time. :smallsmile:

Oh, they can also punch the stupid compulsions out of other people, too. :smallamused:

Terraoblivion
2010-02-27, 11:06 PM
And then they will be pissed and not really in a mood to focus on the actual threats to Creation. Really, the Gold Faction just has such a stupid plan.

Arti3
2010-02-27, 11:07 PM
Well, maybe Plan B is better. idunknow

Lochar
2010-02-27, 11:16 PM
Remember Sidereals, when all else fails, you have the KUUUKLA!

The Demented One
2010-02-28, 12:59 AM
Sidereals should basically be seen as the People With No Right Option. Killing the Solars was a horribly bad idea. Letting the Solars reign unchecked would be a horribly bad idea. Killing the Solars and trapping their exaltations for hundreds of years, incidentally creating the Deathlords, letting them wipe out 90% of all life with the Great Contagion, leaving Creation open to raksha invasion, installing the Scarlet Empress as the utterly less-than-competent ruler of Creation, and letting the Neverborn and Yozis capture the shards and make their own Exalted is an idea awful beyond imagining. But it was the best option they had. It really sucks to be Chejop Kejak.

Sophismata
2010-02-28, 01:03 AM
[...] the Scarlet Empress as the utterly less-than-competent ruler of Creation [...]

I disagree.

Kyeudo
2010-02-28, 01:09 AM
installing the Scarlet Empress as the utterly less-than-competent ruler of Creation,

I second that disagreement. The Scarlet Empress managed to have her hand in every cookie jar, have all the Great Houses scurrying to fufil her every wish, every country fear her wrath, and matched wits successfully with Chejop Kejack, the mastermind behind the Usurpation, for most of her 700+ year lifespan. There are Solars with less impressive resumes.

Tavar
2010-02-28, 01:15 AM
I second that disagreement. The Scarlet Empress managed to have her hand in every cookie jar, have all the Great Houses scurrying to fufil her every wish, every country fear her wrath, and matched wits successfully with Chejop Kejack, the mastermind behind the Usurpation, for most of her 700+ year lifespan. There are Solars with less impressive resumes.

Perhaps, but the entire structure relied on her presence, and if nothing else Exalted has shown that no matter how immortal you think you are, something out there can kill you. Thus, as soon as she's taken out of the picture, the whole thing starts to collapse. Yeah, the Realm isn't gone yet, but it's like the Roman Empire in the 3rd century AD.

Plus, I mean, all that would really need to happen would for the Fair Folk to invade again. Then good-bye Creation.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-28, 01:36 AM
Why are the Fair Folk called the Fair Folk? They do not seem particularly 'fair' to me. Is that some sort of Asian reference I'm not getting?

Why don't they call them "Oh God we're all going to die *asplode*" instead?

Talkkno
2010-02-28, 01:40 AM
Remember, Solar have access to an integrity charm that will shatter any and all long-term compulsions on their person, and can be used at any time. :smallsmile:

Oh, they can also punch the stupid compulsions out of other people, too. :smallamused:

Doesn't help when a sidereal can convice you that they are lying when they aren't :smallwink:

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 01:42 AM
No, it is a Celtic reference. They are basically the fae and those are traditionally called fair folk. There isn't really more to it than that.

Though remember fair can also mean beautiful and given the enormous amounts of stats that Raksha have, they frequently are just that.

The Demented One
2010-02-28, 02:04 AM
I disagree.

I second that disagreement. The Scarlet Empress managed to have her hand in every cookie jar, have all the Great Houses scurrying to fufil her every wish, every country fear her wrath, and matched wits successfully with Chejop Kejack, the mastermind behind the Usurpation, for most of her 700+ year lifespan. There are Solars with less impressive resumes.
Scarlet Empress did a great job of being a God-Queen. She did an awful job of being a ruler. If the success of your nation is contingent on you personally being there to make sure everything goes right, you're doing it wrong.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:10 AM
Why are the Fair Folk called the Fair Folk? They do not seem particularly 'fair' to me. Is that some sort of Asian reference I'm not getting?

Why don't they call them "Oh God we're all going to die *asplode*" instead?

They're fairies.

Fairies are called 'The Fair Folk' to avoid actually naming them, because when you say their real names they can hear you.

Artanis
2010-02-28, 03:13 AM
Really, the Gold Faction just has such a stupid plan.

It's a Sidereal plan, what do you expect? :smalltongue:

Kyeudo
2010-02-28, 03:17 AM
Scarlet Empress did a great job of being a God-Queen. She did an awful job of being a ruler. If the success of your nation is contingent on you personally being there to make sure everything goes right, you're doing it wrong.

If the continued existance of the world is contigent on you being there to activate a super-defense grid, you have the luxury of assuming that you will live until the end of the world.

I mean, really, Creation is lucky that the Deathlords let the Solars out by accident just as the Scarlet Empress disapeared, else the world would have little hope.

The_Snark
2010-02-28, 03:20 AM
They're fairies.

Fairies are called 'The Fair Folk' to avoid actually naming them, because when you say their real names they can hear you.

And you want your euphemism to be a flattering one, just in case they hear anyway. Hence names like the Fair Folk and the Good People (not used in Exalted, but nonetheless).

Drascin
2010-02-28, 03:21 AM
Scarlet Empress did a great job of being a God-Queen. She did an awful job of being a ruler. If the success of your nation is contingent on you personally being there to make sure everything goes right, you're doing it wrong.

I dunno. Far as my knowledge of Exalted lore goes, the Scarlet Empress seems to have been about the first and only ruler in the history of ever whose dominion only went to hell when she went missing. Everyone else failed on their own. So the Scarlet Empress might fail the basic theory of succession, but as a ruler she certainly seems to be the most competent person in this whole world. Everyone else either blew themselves up or got themselves blown up by their own people for being utter idiots (see: Solars, Primordials).

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 03:27 AM
Yeah, she was a rather skilled ruler. And like Kyeudo pointed out, she was effectively the only person who could defend Creation making succession not terribly relevant. Also she had the means and the will to live forever.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:29 AM
Yeah, she was a rather skilled ruler. And like Kyeudo pointed out, she was effectively the only person who could defend Creation making succession not terribly relevant. Also she had the means and the will to live forever.

And then she decided to screw over the Realm for personal gain, selling her daughter to the yozis as use as their phylactery-womb in the process.

Go Scarlet Empress! Screw over that world!

lostlittlebear
2010-02-28, 03:31 AM
Just adding my two obols worth here.

Maybe it's just me, but as a debater one of the coolest things about Exalted is how you can literally destroy someone's mind by making a really really awesome speech. In D&D, speeches are something fun for the bard to do. In Exalted, they are legitimate combat weapons.

I can't tell you how many times I've wished I had Sanity-Eroding Diatribe in real life. And I'm sure there are countless other Solar/Siddy/Luna charm/combos that can do the exact same thing.

(EDIT: Where does it say she sold out the Realm for personal gain? I thought canon was that she married the Ebon Dragon to save the world, not to screw it over.)

Kyeudo
2010-02-28, 03:33 AM
And then she decided to screw over the Realm for personal gain, selling her daughter to the yozis as use as their phylactery-womb in the process.

Go Scarlet Empress! Screw over that world!

Which still makes no sense to me. The Realm was her personal gain. Every satrapry that the Realm gained added to her political power and her wealth, she more than likely had access to at least one of a dozen ways to become immortal, and she was the single most powerful Dragon-Blood in the world. Why agree to marry the Ebon Dragon?

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:34 AM
Which still makes no sense to me. The Realm was her personal gain. Every satrapry that the Realm gained added to her political power and her wealth, she more than likely had access to at least one of a dozen ways to become immortal, and she was the single most powerful Dragon-Blood in the world. Why agree to marry the Ebon Dragon?

More personal gain!

A wife of a Primordial strikes me as better off than the ruler of a mostly mortal empire.

lostlittlebear
2010-02-28, 03:38 AM
Even when the Ebon Dragon is the literal personification of evil? Marrying pure evil doesn't really strike me as the intelligent option, but hey, it's EXALTED. Nothing has to make sense.

Talkkno
2010-02-28, 03:39 AM
The whole Ebon Dragon thing is not canon, its mere one of the many possibilities of where she may have went. :smallwink:

Drascin
2010-02-28, 03:39 AM
More personal gain!

A wife of a Primordial strikes me as better off than the ruler of a mostly mortal empire.

Now, I don't really know much about the history behind the Empress's deal, but given how messed up and utterly alien Yozis are, I find that a humble cow farm worth Resources 2 is better than being the wife of a Primordial :smallamused:. For one, the cows aren't trying to destroy everything for laughs, and for another, what happens when the Cthulhu thing gets bored of her?

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:41 AM
The whole Ebon Dragon thing is not canon, its mere one of the many possibilities of where she may have went. :smallwink:

No, it... is very much canon. Have you read Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals?

The Ebon Dragon is not the personification of evil. He's a personification of darkness, selfishness and Magnificent Bastardry, but he's not a personification of anything so black-and-white as "evil".

Although he's still very much one of the bad guys. Even compared to the other Yozis.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 03:52 AM
Scarlet Empress did a great job of being a God-Queen. She did an awful job of being a ruler. If the success of your nation is contingent on you personally being there to make sure everything goes right, you're doing it wrong.

Not a big fan of dictatorships, I see. Don't forget that rulers, in particular rulers not elected by the masses, are in it for themselves. The Scarlet Empress was not a queen decided by hereditary rule, a representative elected by common majority, nor was she selected by the ruling caste to represent and enforce their desires. The Empress was an iron fisted tyrant wearing a glove of velvet who came into power solely because she was the only one with access to the Defense Grid. The Realm would either obey or be destroyed.

As such, she had no obligation what-so-ever to set up the Realm to exist beyond her extended lifespan. Who cares what happens after that since the Defense Grid would cease to work and all of Creation would be destroyed with the next Fair Folk invasion?


Why are the Fair Folk called the Fair Folk? They do not seem particularly 'fair' to me. Is that some sort of Asian reference I'm not getting?

Why don't they call them "Oh God we're all going to die *asplode*" instead?

In the ancient British Isles, Fair meant 'Beautiful'. The fair folk would be any species of elf, faerie or sprite believed to exist. The common legends were that the fair folk were not malicious in nature, but would keep you as a pet if they took a liking to you. Not exactly as bad as trolls, but still not something you want to keep around.

Fair Folk in Exalted are much the same, but they do have one clear exception. Fair Folk exist with the rule of narrative responsibility installed in them. For example (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0097.html), the Fair Folk show up to cause trouble because causing trouble makes a good story. However (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0098.html), that doesn't mean Fair Folk are serious villains. No, more accurately they are villains just because someone has to be one (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0099.html). Fair Folk exist in a society where the strongest among the dictate the story, and the weaker assume rules within that story. As such most(read: all but the most ludicrously powerful Unshaped) will fall into a role in the Solar's story, usually that of an antagonist.

They are named, likely, because there are very few ugly Nobles.

Kyeudo
2010-02-28, 03:53 AM
The slave of a Primordial strikes me as far worse off than the ruler of a mostly mortal empire.

Fixed that for you.


The whole Ebon Dragon thing is not canon, its mere one of the many possibilities of where she may have went. :smallwink:

Read MoEP:Infernals. Look at such entries as the Palace of the Ebon Dragon, Ring of the Scarlet Bride, and the sidebar talking about how part of the Ebon Dragon's plans for the Realm involve having his new wife use high Essence Dragon-Blooded Charms to manipulate all of her descendants. It's as canon as anything can be without being spelled out in the sky in letters of fire.


Even when the Ebon Dragon is the literal personification of evil? Marrying pure evil doesn't really strike me as the intelligent option, but hey, it's EXALTED. Nothing has to make sense.

As Yuki Akuma stated, the Ebon Dragon is not the personification of evil. He is the architect (aka the original designer) of trechery, darkness, and freedom. He also probably created or help create such things as trust (so it could be broken), loyalty (so that it could be subverted), and light (so there could be shadow).

In a way, he is the one ultimately responsible for the Primordial War, for free will was his creation and free will was the true weapon the gods used to kill the Primordials.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:57 AM
In the ancient British Isles, Fair meant 'Beautiful'.

It still does.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 03:58 AM
Fixed that for you.

It's the Ebon Dragon we're talking about. Everything is already a slave to him as far as he is concerned.


He also probably created or help create such things as trust (so it could be broken), loyalty (so that it could be subverted), and light (so there could be shadow).

He also created, found or assisted in the creation of the ultimate expression of Virtues: the Unconquered Sun. So, really, the Ebon Dragon is "in it for the lulz". Good, Evil and Neutral got nothing on that.


It still does.

Most people use "beautiful" these days with 'fair' being reserved for the 'foppish' :smallamused:

The_Snark
2010-02-28, 03:58 AM
I feel I should point out that while the books have been hinting ever-more heavily that the Scarlet Empress is the Ebon Dragon's bride-to-be, we have no idea why she did it. It could have been personal gain, I suppose, but it could just as easily have been something she was tricked or forced into.

(Also, the Ebon Dragon has always seemed far more like a Smug Snake than a Magnificent Bastard to me.)

Drascin
2010-02-28, 04:12 AM
He also created, found or assisted in the creation of the ultimate expression of Virtues: the Unconquered Sun. So, really, the Ebon Dragon is "in it for the lulz". Good, Evil and Neutral got nothing on that.

So the Ebon Dragon is basically Tzeentch?

Also, I keep finding it funny that that lazy jerkass Sun is supposed to be the most virtuous thing in the world. Says a lot about the Exalted world, really :smalltongue:.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 04:15 AM
So the Ebon Dragon is basically Tzeentch?

More or less, except for a clear distinction: Tzeentch has a plan with an outcome that can be loosely defined as success. I doubt success is something the Ebon Dragon can fathom. The Ebon Dragon doesn't 'win' so much as he just loses the least.


Also, I keep finding it funny that that lazy jerkass Sun is supposed to be the most virtuous thing in the world. Says a lot about the Exalted world, really :smalltongue:.

The thing with UCS is that he perfectly encompasses Compassion, Temperance, Valor and Conviction simultaneously. He's the only god that walks into a room full of drugs and has to debate whether to: A) give them away, C) throw them away or D) use them to start a fight. And that's only three out of four virtues. In fact, the only way he can really make a logical decision is by suppressing one or more virtues so they aren't perfectly affecting his judgement.

Ironically it's a pretty good match-up with the Ebon Dragon. A god incapable of action against a titan incapable of success.

Drascin
2010-02-28, 04:21 AM
More or less, except for a clear distinction: Tzeentch has a plan with an outcome that can be loosely defined as success. I doubt success is something the Ebon Dragon can fathom. The Ebon Dragon doesn't 'win' so much as he just loses the least.

No, actually, he kind of doesn't. Tzeentch literally plans countermeasures for everything. This includes his own plans. He sets his own followers against each other for the lulz, and gives advantages to his enemies because it'd make for a more chaotic result, even if it means he loses. He sacrificed a huge portion of his power once to keep the other chaos gods existing (other gods which he does/doesn't at the same time hate the guts of) to keep the balance of powers going so everything is more unpredictable.

Basically, Tzeentch is pretty much Xom, but with a beak :smalltongue:. He's not trying to "win" - he's trying to hose everyone else for the lulz. Hence the comparison :smallwink:.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 04:21 AM
(Also, the Ebon Dragon has always seemed far more like a Smug Snake than a Magnificent Bastard to me.)

Shapeism! Just because he's shaped like a serpent doesn't make him a snake! :smallwink:

The Demented One
2010-02-28, 04:29 AM
The thing to remember about the Ebon Dragon is that he isn't a dragon–he's just the shadow of one. He's something complicated and nuanced made into just a flat shape. He doesn't have an agenda, a personality, or even goals. He literally has no Motivation, just an Urge–and that Urge is ******* you over. It doesn't even matter who "you" is. The Exalted? The Gods? Autochthon? The other Primordials? Himself? Yep. He's a stock stereotype of the spiteful, antagonistic villain played deadly straight, to the point of becoming almost an archetype.

He's also pathetic. You know how he made the Unconquered Sun to be everything he's not? Well, the Unconquered Sun is pretty great. The Ebon Dragon is heartless, purposeless, unrestrained, and a coward. He doesn't even have a cosmic perspective of virtue like the other Primordials–he has the same one's as anyone, he's just really bad at all of them. And you almost think that he might be pitiable, that he's definitely not a threat, that you totally shouldn't worry about him, he's just the Ebon Dragon.

Which is exactly why he is a threat. He's pathetic, lowly, base, and vile, and there is no level he will not sink to if it makes you suffer.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 04:31 AM
Well, actually, the Ebon Dragon is a dragon made of darkness, now. He was a literal living shadow, but his nature changed a little bit after the War.

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 04:38 AM
As for the Empress being the wife of the Ebon Dragon they are also releasing a mega-campaign along the lines of the first edition Locust Crusade about her returning as the bride of the Ebon Dragon. That seems fairly canonically established. You can still ignore it, though. I wouldn't make a story about her as the bride of the Ebon Dragon, just as i wouldn't blow up Gem except as a joke. It has been made way too clear that both things are just about to happen for it to be any fun.

Also from what i can tell it appears that she became his bride by reading the Broken-Winged Crane and selling her soul that way. Seems pretty damning to me, though i guess she might still have done it to prevent a worse threat from coming to be. Similarly it is hinted that Mnemon knows this and that it is bad enough to make even her feel bad thinking about it.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 04:43 AM
Well, actually, the Ebon Dragon is a dragon made of darkness, now. He was a literal living shadow, but his nature changed a little bit after the War.

Arguably he changed before the War. His change may or may not have been started by the creation of the UCS. In fact, one could even say the UCS is his Fetich Soul as it defines everything he is(by being everything he is not). Whereas the UCS shoulders the decisions that require parts of his soul, even his very nature, to be suppressed; the Ebon Dragon lacks any such decisions. He can never choose to suppress his Compassion so that he could allow the Infernals to be slaughtered without intervention. The UCS had to for the Solars, but the Ebon Dragon lacks any such compassion for his creations.

Ironically: Saying UCS is his Fetich Soul explains quite clearly why he is the least changed of the Yozi.

The_Snark
2010-02-28, 04:51 AM
Shapeism! Just because he's shaped like a serpent doesn't make him a snake! :smallwink:

What? No! Why, some of my very best friends are ophidians!

More seriously, I was referring to the Smug half of the term. Besides which, I feel like magnificent bastards need to a) have their magnificent schemes shown rather than told, and/or b) have some admirable features. The Ebon Dragon's past and present exploits are all pretty vague, and he prides himself on having no redeeming features.

If Exalted worked like a high school movie, he'd be the popular cliquey girl caricature- you know, the one with no real substance and no apparent purpose in life but to put people down, particularly people who won't fawn over her and especially the movie's protagonist.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 05:09 AM
More seriously, I was referring to the Smug half of the term. Besides which, I feel like magnificent bastards need to a) have their magnificent schemes shown rather than told, and/or b) have some admirable features. The Ebon Dragon's past and present exploits are all pretty vague, and he prides himself on having no redeeming features.

While I agree on point A, I disagree immensely with point B. A Magnificent Bastard protagonist might need such qualities, but a Magnificent Bastard antagonist does not. If anything, the lack of redeemable or even slightly admirable qualities makes one root against the Magnificent Bastard antagonist even more.

Look at Lexx Luthor. He is clearly a Magnificent Bastard antagonist, and before Smallville he lacked any actual reason to hate Superman. He just hated Supes because Supes was in the way. His own greed and selfishness pitted him against Supes, and Supes was only out to save the world and maybe make a difference. This is tentamount to, and I use a bit of hyperbole here, punching the old man who dresses up as Santa and rings a bell for the Salvation Army every Christmas. That old guy didn't do anything to you, and he's only out there to do some good. Yet, you vehemently hate him with every fibre of your being. For what? Because he wants your quarters.

Yet, Lex's actions make him a Magnificent Bastard. His plans within plans that get altered at a heartbeat. He's charismatic, affluent and incredibly manipulative. He convinced a majority of the American populus to elect him when he wasn't trying to kill Supes after all. Yet, he never shows any admirable qualities because of his obsession with punching Santa in the face for trying to take his quarters.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 05:11 AM
Actually, Luthor originally hated Supes because he blamed him for his baldness.

Yup.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 05:27 AM
Actually, Luthor originally hated Supes because he blamed him for his baldness.

Yup.

Still selfish enough for it to not change my point. :smalltongue:

The_Snark
2010-02-28, 05:29 AM
While I admit I've never read a Superman comic, and my knowledge of Lex Luthor stems entirely from Internet osmosis (and thus might be totally off-base), I was under the impression that his main reason for hating Superman is resentment. Lex Luthor is a self-made man, without any natural assets other than his intellect. He worked for what he got, and he regularly goes up against an invincible enemy with nothing more than clever plans and inventions. Superman got his powers by a fluke of biology, and he accomplishes more than Lex without exerting himself nearly as much. That might not have been why he first opposed Superman (I have no actual idea what the first reason was), but it's why he remains obsessed; he feels like he deserves to be better than Superman.

Definitely a villain, but there are admirable qualities there.

And... hmmm, we seem to have digressed. I mean, we digressed from the original topic of discussing what makes Exalted interesting a while ago, but talking about Exalted at least gives the people looking into it some more information...

So, back to the Ebon Dragon. I think everyone has a slightly different set of criteria for magnificent bastardry. I did say and/or; a villain could in theory be utterly despicable, and yet stylish and cunning enough to qualify. But if he can manage some admirable qualities, it makes it much easier for me to accept it. The Ebon Dragon's real failing (in my eyes) is that he isn't shown to be a magnificent trickster; we're assured that he is, and then only given the vaguest of examples. If they gave details on some past schemes of his, they might convince me, but as is...

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 05:47 AM
The Ebon Dragon's real failing (in my eyes) is that he isn't shown to be a magnificent trickster; we're assured that he is, and then only given the vaguest of examples. If they gave details on some past schemes of his, they might convince me, but as is...

Well, supposedly the Ebon Dragon convinced all the other Primordials that free will was good.

By which I mean: The Dragon's Shadow convinced the Personification of Law and Obedience that being able to disagree was Crazy Awesome. I dunno about you, but being able to convince a being literally made of irrefutable order that chaos is cool... Well, that's some magnificent trickery right there.

Though I do agree that we need more examples of Ebon Dragon screwing over people.

Sophismata
2010-02-28, 07:11 AM
Lex Luthor is a self-made man, without any natural assets other than his intellect. He worked for what he got, and he regularly goes up against an invincible enemy with nothing more than clever plans and inventions.

His motives have morphed over time. There are a few different interpretations of him, my favourite being the self-reliance one. Basically, Superman hurts the world just by existing - mankind needs to learn how to solve their own problems, otherwise they will perish the moment Superman does.

Sorta like the Scarlet Empress.

Anyway, Luthor is a Magnificent Bastard, because he is evil and stylish and tragic. The Ebon Dragon is just a ****. A Magnificent Bastard is someone that the audience admires and sympathises with, while recognising that he is still knowingly committing acts of evil or injustice.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 08:03 AM
Anyway, Luthor is a Magnificent Bastard, because he is evil and stylish and tragic. The Ebon Dragon is just a ****. A Magnificent Bastard is someone that the audience admires and sympathises with, while recognising that he is still knowingly committing acts of evil or injustice.

Not quite. Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) over on TVTropes doesn't require admiration or sympathy from the audience. Certainly the Ebon Dragon is a ****, but that doesn't disqualify him from Magnificent Bastard status.

Arcanoi
2010-02-28, 08:12 AM
The problem with that sort of classification is that the Ebon Dragon, by his definition CANNOT be classified. He breaks all rules, because he is the one who invented the concept of the 'rule'. He cannot even be classified as a Primordial, because he is only the shadow of himself.

He is not a villain, because he has no plot, no scheme. He can be an Antagonist, but to suggest he is a villain is to suggest that a hurricane or famine can be a villain. He is a Force, not of Creation or the Underworld, or Malfeas, or even of the Wyld. And what he does is breaks things. He even makes things so he can break them later. He breaks concepts, ideas, and people. Not because he wants to, not because he needs to, but because he is the Ebon Dragon.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 08:47 AM
...He isn't the one who defined the concept of the 'rule'. That was one of the others. (In fact the being that defines the concept of 'rules' might not even be a Primordial.)

And he does have a plot. It involves screwing over the rest of the Yozis and using the Green Sun Princes to free himself and only himself, then spread darkness across Creation.

He is the one who came up with the Green Sun Princes, you know. He's not just a random malevolent force.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 09:14 AM
Being a crotchety old 3.5 D&D loon, is it a system best avoided by my curmudgeonly, simulationist ways?

I just noticed this bit in the OP and have something to add to it: Exalted is a simulation, but not of a medieval setting. It just happens to be a simulation of wuxia films, and spaghetti westerns or spaghetti samurai flicks. Using heroic mortals as PCs and utilizing your own setting: It becomes very easy to play a down-to-earth, lethal and gritty game. As I test I fooled around with a game centered in Dark Age Britain, and the result was pretty good. Annoyingly constrained compared to vanilla Exalted, but none the less it's easily done.

The game even includes rules for bleeding, serious injuries, infections, diseases, poor living conditions, fatigue, extreme weather and the like. Naturally, Exalts are immune or nearly immune to most of these conditions(and all those they aren't immune most will have a charm to make them immune to it).

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 09:36 AM
Rules are split between Cecelyne and She Who Lives In Her Name and the way they split them is not entirely clear. Cecelyne is more social laws and rules as social constructs while She Who Lives In Her Name is laws of nature and the like. But there is some overlap.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 09:41 AM
Also, only Shinma automatically defy concepts they embody. Primordials have more free will than that. The Principle of Hierachy is subservient to Malfaes, for instance.

Edit: No, that wasn't Cecelyne. I think. I forget.

grautry
2010-02-28, 10:12 AM
I've educated myself somewhat on the Exalted Wiki about some of the fluff of the setting, so...

Exalted promises an EPIC, EPIC, EPIC, EPIC adventure of EPIC scale and of EPIC proportions with EPIC opponents. Which is pretty cool.

Here's my question: how many sessions would it take for you(assuming moderately-fast XP'ing) to be able to kill the high-end opponents like:
A) Deathlords
B) Neverborn/Yozis/Primordials(as I understand they're pretty much the same thing, just in a different state of corruption)
C) High end gods(as I understand there are gods for pebbles and stuff, so we're talking about big guys here)
D) Behemoths

or the other big bads(or their Dragons) of the setting? Let's assume that you're a solar party going against a single opponent(unless the opponent explicitly summons others to help him and/or is expected to have an entourage) and you're moderately optimized(in D&D terms you're a Batman Wizard but not an Incantatrix and certainly not a Tainted Scholar).

I'm asking because White Wolf has a terrible habit of making the players into ants compared to the Super Special NPCs that populate the game and I'm really having doubts about them delivering on the promise of how uber the characters really are.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 10:35 AM
I'm asking because White Wolf has a terrible habit of making the players into ants compared to the Super Special NPCs that populate the game and I'm really having doubts about them delivering on the promise of how uber the characters really are.

Yozi/Primordials lack stats. They themselves, for all intents and purposes, cannot be fought. Their component souls do have stats, and those component souls can be fought and defeated like any other being. However, a Yozi/Primordial will simply morph into a different(maybe lesser, maybe greater) being and spawn replacement souls(or, at least, the big souls get replaced).

So far only one Primordial has become greater through defeat: The Lidless Eye That Sees, whom was omnipresent, became Sacheverell, He Who Sees The Shape Of Things To Come, and gained the power to perfectly divine the future. This only works if he's awake, so he's kept asleep by all the other Yozi.

Neverborn could be physically destroyed, but doing so means the Neverborn win. They can't really be fought since they want to be destroyed. Fighting a Neverborn would involve prolonging it's existence and thwarting it's attempts to destroy itself until it absolves itself and cuts it's ties to it's fetters. In which case it would probably be sent to Lethe and then be reborn, assuming Primordials are affected as per mortal souls. Then you'd have to look at the piece above this.

Fighting a Deathlord would be no different than fighting a high XP Exalt. Which would mean ludicrous world-breaking events. I think it was First and Forsaken Lion who has a scene length perfect defense in play, and breaking through that would be trouble all on it's own.

Fighting a god is... Well, it's pitiful. I mean, it's stuff starting XP Exalts roll with. Now, if you mean fighting a big name like Luna or UCS then you're gonna have trouble. UCS, for example, is literally perfect in everything he does. The only way to fight him would be by forcing him to suppress a virtue and then attack through that virtue. Luckily, forcing UCS to suppress a virtue is rather easy. For example, slaughtering all the Solars forced him to suppress his Compassion in order to let it happen.

Thing is: All the 'super special' NPCs you mentioned are all varying varieties of end-game bosses. Killing a Primordial, Yozi, Luna, UCS or absolving a Neverborn is the sort of thing that doesn't end a story; it ends a character. That's a wrap. Roll someone else so we can do other cool stuff.

Before you get to those guys, you have their minions to cut through. Most of those minions will be zombies, weak demons, minor gods or dragon-blooded. Then you get into the big boys: Fighting nephwracks, middle-management gods, second circle souls, behemoths and giant mecha. Finally you have to cut through the elite of the elite: Abyssals, Infernals, highly worshiped gods of war/debate, Sidereals and the like. Then, and only then, would you be swinging for the head.

So, assuming you were getting 10 XP per session: About 10-12 sessions before you pose a threat to a Third Circle soul. Of course, Exalted is just as fun when you're only trying to manage the problems of a little empire in the Scavenger Lands.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-28, 10:59 AM
So the Fair Folk are obsessed by stories, and willingly commit their actions to arbitrary story conventions?

So they're a group of super-powerful, alien TV Tropers? Wow, that really does sound scary.

Kyeudo
2010-02-28, 11:03 AM
By which I mean: The Dragon's Shadow convinced the Personification of Law and Obedience that being able to disagree was Crazy Awesome.

Nitpick: The Primordials are not personifications. Gods are the closest thing Exalted has to beings who are personifications of a concept. A Primordial is the one who came up with the concept in the first place, using itself at the template. The Ebon Dragon is backstabbing incarnate because he designed backstabbing to be the thing that he does.


So the Fair Folk are obsessed by stories, and willingly commit their actions to arbitrary story conventions?

So they're a group of super-powerful, alien TV Tropers? Wow, that really does sound scary.

Yes. A Fae will follow story conventions because that is what is interesting to them. Most don't really want to destroy Creation, but acting like they do creates the most interesting stories for them to be apart of, so a large portion of them pretend to want Creation gone.

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 11:12 AM
And pretending to want Creation gone also makes for such plentiful intrigue against each other playing secret traitors and the dread inquisitors stamping them out. And give room for so much exciting debate and sulking over strategies. Really, it is such a good and useful story that most of them would be sad if Creation actually did get destroyed.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 11:17 AM
And pretending to want Creation gone also makes for such plentiful intrigue against each other playing secret traitors and the dread inquisitors stamping them out. And give room for so much exciting debate and sulking over strategies. Really, it is such a good and useful story that most of them would be sad if Creation actually did get destroyed.

Well, you know, if Fair Folk actually had emotions at all.

Arti3
2010-02-28, 11:27 AM
they have feelings too

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 11:28 AM
The thing is, they do. Creation makes the develop a genuine obsession with it. Similarly people and events from Creation can provoke genuine, non-faked emotion in them. Fair Folk can fall in love for example or truly hate, just not each other but only the Creation-born. Similarly all Fair Folk who come into contact with Creation develops an obsession with it whether they like it or not. The specific nature of the obsession varies, but they somehow become obsessed with Creation. So yeah, most of them would be sad if Creation was gone, most of them don't have an obsession with destroying it after all.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 12:09 PM
The thing is, they do. Creation makes the develop a genuine obsession with it. Similarly people and events from Creation can provoke genuine, non-faked emotion in them.

Bolding mine.

This is where I disagree with you. I do not think Fair Folk have emotions as we understand them. I believe they gain emotions by putting on it's role like a suit. A Fae wearing the guise of a warlord in Creation will have the emotions of a warlord, because that is it's role in the story of Creation. The closest mortal, and I use that term loosely, emotion the Fae come to is curiosity and that is centered toward Creation.

As you mentioned, Fair Folk can love and hate, but only in the context of an individual's story. If it is in a tragic love triangle with two mortals, for example, then they would love both mortals(or only one if they are the intruder) because(and this part is key) it is their role. Take that role away and the Fae has no need for either mortal except as a source of essence. To assume that Fae have mortal emotions assigns a level of humanity that Fae simply do not have.

Were Creation be destroyed, then I think the second greatest story(that of one of the many truly gigantic Unshaped) would become the new focal point of Fae.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 12:11 PM
Remember, a Raksha who stresses his Cup Grace loses his emotions. So, yeah, pretty sure they're faked.

Terraoblivion
2010-02-28, 12:34 PM
No, it is not an opinion. Read Graceful Wicked Masques, it is said over and over that Creation can have real, genuine effects on Fair Folk including inducing genuine emotion in them. Nothing in the Wyld can truly kill them, nothing in the Wyld can make them truly love or hate. Creation can. A good chunk of the description of each of the four castes is about how they react to this fact. That Creation imposes its own rules on them, including emotion. The most clear one is page 105, second paragraph which states: "Even worse a raksha who walks in Creation and interacts with its people suffer a terrible vulnerability - she might, on rare occassions, experience love for a Creation born that is not the result of some duplicitous cup-shaping attack. A love that is real. It is a rare thing, but when a raksha experiences genuine love for one of Creation's bastards (...)", emphasis mine.

Similarly there is an entire section dedicated to describing how the effects of Creation are permanent in a way that shaping attacks aren't. I cannot find it at the moment, it is a large book and there are no easy keywords to search for. Perhaps someone else can help.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 01:37 PM
The most clear one is page 105, second paragraph which states: "Even worse a raksha who walks in Creation and interacts with its people suffer a terrible vulnerability - she might, on rare occassions, experience love for a Creation born that is not the result of some duplicitous cup-shaping attack. A love that is real. It is a rare thing, but when a raksha experiences genuine love for one of Creation's bastards (...)", emphasis mine.

Then the question becomes: Is the Fae feeling love because it chooses to or because of it's shape? To enter Creation a Fae must assume a specific shape and that shape accumulates feelings associated with Creation. So if the Fae leaves Creation, enters the Wyld and unshapes then will that love stay? If so, then we know Fae have actual personal emotions. However, if it does not stay then we know Fae can develop emotions by retention of shape.

As for the description of permanent effects that Creation has on Fae: I cannot find the passage either and have given up looking for now.

FatR
2010-02-28, 03:18 PM
I mostly play D&D. Or rather, I did, until I flung myself into self-imposed exile. However, I'm not beyond expanding my horizons into new gaming systems. For instance, I've played Shadowrun a few times, and used to play Warhammer 40K until I wound up living in a cardboard box.

I often see mention of the game Exalted on these forums, whether here or in the Recruiting Games threads. I've seen Exalted (whatever the current version is; the one you'd see waltzing into Borders or Barnes & Noble) before, and perused the massive main book, but I'm yet to sit down and devour the thing. I'd rather do so after purchasing the book, but I must know more before such a decision can be made.

So, what's up with Exalted? Is it fun? Give me the hard sell!
You can run a fun game named "Exalted", but 90% of the fun parts probably will be your invention, with certain setting flavor slapped on them.



I know that you basically play as demigods, but that's about it. What's the main mechanic? What's the best part about it?
Some guys who wrote 1E books had decent imagination.



What are some folks' experiences playing this game?
Playing it can be fun, as long as the GM handles the mechanical stuff, although just forget all that god-king hype and be prepared to do typical middle-level DnD adventures. I played for a while under 3 different GMs, this happened without fail, is guilty of this myself as well. Might have something to do with the position of the authors themselves. GMing it is the horrible chore, unless you pretty much handwave everything. Reasons for this are manifold - for starters, the game gives you very few useable adventures, no monster manual that does not suck and NPCs generation that takes hours. The combat lacks tactical diversity and meaningful options, so you won't get any enjoyment from attempting to outwargame your players. Mechanics are completely inconsistent with the setting. And so on.



My mind thirsts for answers to these questions, as well as questions I'm yet to even think of. Being a crotchety old 3.5 D&D loon, is it a system best avoided by my curmudgeonly, simulationist ways? Or should I open my heart to a new era of over-the-top epic action?
If you know what game promises that era, please tell me. DnD's power curve reaches higher, gets there faster and DnD breaks less hard at high power levels.

The Demented One
2010-02-28, 03:19 PM
{Scrubbed}

FatR
2010-02-28, 03:31 PM
{scrubbed}

FatR
2010-02-28, 03:32 PM
{Scrubbed}
This way of undermining another's arguments work about as well as Exalted mechanics.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:34 PM
You know this is a thread for talking up Exalted, right? I mean, you can't have posted without actually reading the OP, surely?

The Demented One
2010-02-28, 03:35 PM
Except, there are upper-upper echelons, which are lightyears above you.
You know those perfect defenses? Yeah. Upper-level echelons can't get through those. You can go into Malfeas and chat up the Ebon Dragon himself, and he can't do a thing to you if you've got Integrity-Protecting Prana and Elusive Dream Defense.


If you're content with founding Kingdom of Unimportania; fighting "gods and demons" that actually are fairly minor spirits, not even unbeatable to mundane mortals; and your artifacts beins suspiciously similar to swords +2 in practical use.
Yeah, because the setting is totally designed so you can never do anything that matters. I think you're having Storyteller issues here, and projecting them onto the game itself.


If "repeating the exact same attack/defense pattern" until one of the opponents dies is your definition of amazing fun.
Not every plays Chungian deathmatch paranoia exalted.

RPGuru1331
2010-02-28, 03:39 PM
"The setting would be boring if bronze faction Sidereals were "the bad guys". Of course, you can field a pretty good reason why each group is the true hero of Creation, even the Abyssals and Infernals."

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Why_the_Yozis_are_Right_%28And_You _Should_Suffer_and_Obey_For_All_Eternity%29

I always loved that version of it! I wouldn't use it, I think, but it's interesting to consider.

FatR
2010-02-28, 03:40 PM
The training of a young exalt (Abyssal caste) in the ways of Kung Fu. (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0271.html)

However, that's page 271 of the comic. So I recommend reading from page 1 (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html). That comic is what has actually made me want to play Exalted when I'm already fed up with general game mechanic due to a Werewolf/Vampires/Mages LARP group here at school.
And oh yeah, the main redeeming quality of Exalted: fandom. I don't know whether it's funny or sad, when a parody webcomics actually has plots and characters that are over 9000 times cooler than anything the canon has to offer. Similarly, Exalted fanart is way better than official art. Nevermind mechanics. And, of course, ideas. My disappointment with Exalted strangely coincided with the realization, that rpg.net Exalted (examples of which can be seen on the first page) and official Exalted actually have very little in common.

Gametime
2010-02-28, 03:42 PM
This way of undermining another's arguments work about as well as Exalted mechanics.

But you haven't made any arguments. You've offered a dissenting opinion, to the tune of "Other people say Exalted is a lot of fun, but I say it sucks." You're welcome to your opinion, naturally, but given that it has been completely unsubstantiated by facts and has no more support than any of the many opinions about how fun some people find Exalted to be, I am surprised that you would consider it worthy of, or even subject to, any actual rebuttal.

Just because you don't like a game doesn't make the game bad.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:49 PM
over 9000

I do hope you realise you just lost all credibility. :smalltongue:

FatR
2010-02-28, 04:05 PM
You know those perfect defenses? Yeah. Upper-level echelons can't get through those.
You know those spam attacks? Yeah. Upper-level echelons can make you run out of perfect defenses with them. Easily. In fact, they can make every single starting-level Exalt in the world, if all these Exalts attack them at once, run out of perfect defenses in a single action. They can literally murder about 99.999% of the world in two (you probably can google Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick for yourself).



You can go into Malfeas and chat up the Ebon Dragon himself, and he can't do a thing to you if you've got Integrity-Protecting Prana and Elusive Dream Defense.
Integrity-Protecting Prana does not work against "conjuring a practically invincible monster to eat you" tactics and explicitly states it in its desriptions. Neither it prevents anyone from just eating you. It's just an annoying Charm tax against a particular way of being killed without save. Elusive Dream Defense offers a near-immunity from mindscrew, but does not prevent Ebon Dragon from just beating you up (and then mindscrewing you, if he wishes, because by that point you'll have no juice to invoke it).



Yeah, because the setting is totally designed so you can never do anything that matters.
Yes, it is. And in fact, I discussed this with one of actual White Wolf writers and he directly said, that the requirement of approximately 2.5 years of weekly play (and this, for most groups, can as well be forever, because few campaigns last more than a year) for obtaining 500 or so XP, necessary to tangle with one of the major bad guys, is wholly intentional.



Not every plays Chungian deathmatch paranoia exalted.
Either you play like that, or your GM cheats for PCs about every second session, so they won't be splattered. I have news for you: Exalted is the game where one-action kills are so trivial, they can and will happen unintentionally in mildly challenging battles, and where you have no resurrection. Perfect-turtle or die.

PinkysBrain
2010-02-28, 04:06 PM
Yeah, because the setting is totally designed so you can never do anything that matters.
Well isn't it?

There are plenty of games where regardless of possible power levels the fluff pretty much tells you you should play like a cog in the machine (like say WoD) or that you are fighting a war which can not be won (Midnight). That's not projection, that's just how the books are written.

Do the Exalted books even hint at playing campaigns where you for instance seek to overthrow the Celestines? (Not as a far fetched goal, but as a campaign goal.)

FatR
2010-02-28, 04:12 PM
But you haven't made any arguments. You've offered a dissenting opinion, to the tune of "Other people say Exalted is a lot of fun, but I say it sucks." You're welcome to your opinion, naturally, but given that it has been completely unsubstantiated by facts
The fact that the game gives you very few useable adventures, no monster manual that does not suck, and NPCs generation that takes hours is fact. The fact that the combat lacks tactical diversity and meaningful options, so you won't get any enjoyment from attempting to outwargame your players is fact. The fact that mechanics are completely inconsistent with the setting is fact. You don't even need to actually play Exalted to recognize the first one.

Similarly, the fact that Uber-NPCs >>>>> You is fact. The fact that dicepools are completely out of hand is fact. The fact that you cannot safisfyingly emulate relatively weak and straightforward characters, like Spiderman, at character generation, is fact. And so on.

Drascin
2010-02-28, 04:12 PM
Well, in all honesty, while I feel FatR is not only missing the point but also being fairly rude, I have to say I can't fully disagree with one of his particular points. Namely, this one:


Any game where you must really jump through the hoops to emulate even Spiderman at character creation has no claims on "Phenomenal cosmic power". And no, don't tell me about perfect defenses and sh|t. These are mechanical absctractions, that don't exist in the fluff. Just like supposedly "infinite-damage" explosions that do not, however, vaporize the goddamn Creation.


For all their supposed Ultimate Cosmic Power (tm), Solars feel like just kind of Perfect Beatsticks, at least out of the Core manual. Yes, they're good at what they do - but they really only do perfectly normal stuff, only better, with no awesome feats of WTF, which is kind of dissapointing after hearing all people say.

Really, if you want interesting powers, I can't help but feel a Lunar or Sidereal game might work a lot better...

Tavar
2010-02-28, 04:14 PM
Well isn't it?

There are plenty of games where regardless of possible power levels the fluff pretty much tells you you should play like a cog in the machine (like say WoD) or that you are fighting a war which can not be won (Midnight). That's not projection, that's just how the books are written.

Do the Exalted books even hint at playing campaigns where you for instance seek to overthrow the Celestines? (Not as a far fetched goal, but as a campaign goal.)

Yes. Or at least, it's hinted as much as overthrowing the current kingdoms and forging and empire is in Ebberon. Perhaps moreso, as I seem to remember some starting character goals given in the book along the lines of overthrow the realm, end slavery everywhere, expose the great curse, or even reconcile the different Exalts. And I'm pretty sure a more advanced one was actually to overthrow the Celestial Incarne and take their places in the games of divinity.

Sanguine
2010-02-28, 04:19 PM
Yes. Or at least, it's hinted as much as overthrowing the current kingdoms and forging and empire is in Ebberon. Perhaps moreso, as I seem to remember some starting character goals given in the book along the lines of overthrow the realm, end slavery everywhere, expose the great curse, or even reconcile the different Exalts. And I'm pretty sure a more advanced one was actually to overthrow the Celestial Incarne and take their places in the games of divinity.

Wait what?

FatR
2010-02-28, 04:19 PM
Well isn't it?

There are plenty of games where regardless of possible power levels the fluff pretty much tells you you should play like a cog in the machine (like say WoD) or that you are fighting a war which can not be won (Midnight). That's not projection, that's just how the books are written.

Do the Exalted books even hint at playing campaigns where you for instance seek to overthrow the Celestines? (Not as a far fetched goal, but as a campaign goal.)
No. While the game does not directly forbid you from ever beating them, like oWoD does for certain NPCs, it just mentions such possibilities in passing as extremely far-fetched goals. There is no plot hooks connected to it.

In fact, just look at published Exalted adventures. Those that actually resemble adventures, are fetch quests, rather heavily populated by NPCs, meant by authors to be Better Than You. No god-king badassitude anywhere.

AmberVael
2010-02-28, 04:26 PM
For all their supposed Ultimate Cosmic Power (tm), Solars feel like just kind of Perfect Beatsticks, at least out of the Core manual. Yes, they're good at what they do - but they really only do perfectly normal stuff, only better, with no awesome feats of WTF, which is kind of dissapointing after hearing all people say.

Really, if you want interesting powers, I can't help but feel a Lunar or Sidereal game might work a lot better...

I can kind of see what you're saying, but I think you've missed out on a lot of things if you think this is the case.

Sorcery and Thaumaturgy, for example, provide lots of very interesting and certainly out of the ordinary things- like being able to summon demons and fly around in a whirlwind (though granted, in the core book they have less options, especially Thaumaturgy).

Even just in Solar charms though, you can create illusions, give people mental compulsions, create armor out of nowhere, and reshape chaos to your whim.


Still, even with those things, they are a bit 'plain' in comparison to things like the Sidereals, who can change people into dragons, or Alchemicals, who have magical rocket launchers and giant robot kung fu, so I'll agree to some extent.

RPGuru1331
2010-02-28, 04:35 PM
"For all their supposed Ultimate Cosmic Power (tm), Solars feel like just kind of Perfect Beatsticks, at least out of the Core manual. Yes, they're good at what they do - but they really only do perfectly normal stuff, only better, with no awesome feats of WTF, which is kind of dissapointing after hearing all people say."
Well, they do 'perfectly normal' things in the sense that Heracles might have. Not just the combat against monsters, but also divert rivers (with one's bare hands), hold the sky itself up, and the like. That isn't heat vision, it's true, but if we're going to use Spider Man as our basis, you don't really have to jump through hoops unless the web shooting specifically is your problem. Spider Foot Style, Monkey Leap Technique, Solar Hero, and a Linguistics Excellency (for the pithy one liners) is sufficient for the rest. Heck, I'm pretty sure there's an Essence 2 or 3 Linguistics Charm that will let you parry attacks with your witty repartee.

Drascin
2010-02-28, 04:56 PM
I can kind of see what you're saying, but I think you've missed out on a lot of things if you think this is the case.

Sorcery and Thaumaturgy, for example, provide lots of very interesting and certainly out of the ordinary things- like being able to summon demons and fly around in a whirlwind (though granted, in the core book they have less options, especially Thaumaturgy).

Yeah, Sorcery is the exception. I find Sorcery awesome - but unless I'm misinterpreting stuff (I'm a newbie at this game, after all), thematically not all Exalts can be Sorcerers, because that's mostly a Twilight schtick. For most Solars, it's a few cool charms insterspersed with a lot of "you add a truckfull of dice to your attempt at X" or "this charm allows you to do X faster and affecting more people".


Still, even with those things, they are a bit 'plain' in comparison to things like the Sidereals, who can change people into dragons, or Alchemicals, who have magical rocket launchers and giant robot kung fu, so I'll agree to some extent.

Yeah. I really, really want to find a book on Alchemicals, they sound all kinds of cool.

My first Alchemical exalted will be a distance fighter named Weisritter. Mark my words :smalltongue:.

AmberVael
2010-02-28, 04:58 PM
Yeah. I really, really want to find a book on Alchemicals, they sound all kinds of cool.

My first Alchemical exalted will be a distance fighter named Weisritter. Mark my words :smalltongue:.

This book is what you're looking for. (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=78905&filters=0_0_0_1820_0)

It was released pretty recently.

Terazul
2010-02-28, 04:59 PM
To be fair, that is what is kind of the difference in the Exaltations/Charms go.
Solar, "We are THE BEST AT EVERYTHING"/Abyssal "YOU SUCK"
Sidereal, "Sneaky bastards/I was never here/You were actually there"
Terrestrial, "Weaker, but more cost efficient + POWER OF TEAMWORK"
Infernal, "Oh we so wacky/Embodiment of chosen Yozi"
Alchemical, "ROBOT INSTALL CHARMS"
Lunars I can never remember anything charm-wise about, aside from their crazy animal stuff.

And yeah, you're perfectly good at doing "normal" stuff like deflecting a giant Essence laser into the sky with the Orichalcum toothpick you just pulled out of your mouth. The phenomenal cosmic power (tm) is almost always in reference to your comparison with mortals. Who are utterly terrified at the sh** you pull off. Strong mortal guy over there has trained all of his mortal life to get that 3rd dot of Strength. You just strolled into town and hit that other guy with a mountain-sized sword you just pulled out of an extradimensional space he cannot even begin to comprehend. Then you got hit in the head with 15 arrows and just shook them out and kept walking (Yay Lethal soak). Wait no, flying, on golden wings of essence (Gotta love that Artifact 4). What.

Also, use Stunts.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 05:00 PM
Yeah, Sorcery is the exception. I find Sorcery awesome - but unless I'm misinterpreting stuff (I'm a newbie at this game, after all), thematically not all Exalts can be Sorcerers, because that's mostly a Twilight schtick. For most Solars, it's a few cool charms insterspersed with a lot of "you add a truckfull of dice to your attempt at X" or "this charm allows you to do X faster and affecting more people".

Any Solar can learn Sorcery. Just like any Solar can learn Melee charms, not just Dawn castes.

Twilights aren't even better at it than a Dawn who happened to take Occult as a favoured ability.

One of the most famous Solar Sorcerers ever was a Zenith. Perhaps you recognise her name: it's Salina.

Yes, that Salina.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-28, 05:05 PM
You know this is a thread for talking up Exalted, right? I mean, you can't have posted without actually reading the OP, surely?

Hey, I find counter-opinions just as valuable. I am certainly not sold at this point. Hearing of the problems with the game, and poor experiences playing it, are just as an important aspect of the decision making progress as positive reviews.

I've never played a White Wolf game, and the friends I know who play it never get into much detail with the mechanics. I can spend hours babbling about theoretical builds, spells, and other nonsense with my D&D friends, but stories from White Wolf games are always centered around the story, the characters, etc.

Not that that's a bad thing! But I'm hesitant to spend money on a game that encourages good RP when I could make up some manner of free-form RP experience. Granted, I don't have a full team of people pouring their creative energy into generating an imaginary world, but that's a problem with picking up pre-made campaign settings: often, you get the feeling that nothing your characters will ever do will really change anything. It's almost like the opposite of rail-roading; your characters are a wad of spit in a much more interesting ocean.

It was said earlier that the setting of Exalted 'feels like it will still unravel/unfold/stuff will happen even if you never play in it.' That made me take caution; should not a setting be designed with player interaction and meddling in mind?

It's been said that Exalted allows incredible freedom to change the course of history, or let your character become just another pointless stroke in the grander painting.

Perhaps somewhere in between these two extremes lies the truth...

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 05:09 PM
It was said earlier that the setting of Exalted 'feels like it will still unravel/unfold/stuff will happen even if you never play in it.' That made me take caution; should not a setting be designed with player interaction and meddling in mind?

It's been said that Exalted allows incredible freedom to change the course of history, or let your character become just another pointless stroke in the grander painting.

Perhaps somewhere in between these two extremes lies the truth...

The setting is poised to go straight to hell in a few months. It's your job to stop this from happening.

Alternatively, if you're playing a Raksha, Abyssal, Infernal or possibly Alchemical, it's your job to do it before any of the other factions do it.

AmberVael
2010-02-28, 05:12 PM
It was said earlier that the setting of Exalted 'feels like it will still unravel/unfold/stuff will happen even if you never play in it.' That made me take caution; should not a setting be designed with player interaction and meddling in mind?

That's misreading the intention. Of course players should be able to come and mess around with things, and that's what it's all about. There are a thousand things already going that they could get involved with, because the world is moving around them already.

It's the difference between handing someone a blank slate and a rich, detailed setting- not the difference between making something the players can and cannot interfere with.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 05:15 PM
Spider Foot Style, Monkey Leap Technique, Solar Hero, and a Linguistics Excellency (for the pithy one liners) is sufficient for the rest. Heck, I'm pretty sure there's an Essence 2 or 3 Linguistics Charm that will let you parry attacks with your witty repartee.

To expand on this: Surprise Anticipation Method emulates his spider-sense, Durability of Oak emulates his physical endurance, and using Heart-Compelling Method to enduce rage emulates one-liners.

So with the following charms, you have most of Spiderman's schtick:
1) Graceful Crane Style; 2) Spider Foot Style; 3) Monkey Leap Technique; 4) Surprise Anticipation Method; 5) Durability of Oak; 6) Fists of Iron Technique.

These only requires Martial Arts 2, Athletics 1, Awareness 5 and Resistance 2. It leaves you with 4 charms to pick, quite a few ability points left and takes only 2 bonus points.

The only thing you're missing are web-shooters, which is an Artifact anyway(and probably only around Artifact 1 at best).

Arcanoi
2010-02-28, 05:15 PM
Well, there's two things that ultimately shape your experience with Exalted. One, the big one, the most important part, is your Storyteller. He's the Storyteller for a reason. He's telling the Story. So if he's not good at it, isn't having fun, or just doesn't like you, you're not going to have fun.

Second is player input. Even with the Storyteller system, players still have a much larger impact on Exalted Games than in any other RPG I've played. Exalted allows you to do things that you simply can't in other games. One of the best parts of Exalted is the Stunt system. Stunts encourage you to be awesome and think outside the box. You're trying to escape a prison? Flirt with one of the guards until he begins to spurt a geysering nosebleed and then use the nosebleed as a platform to jump over the wall. You need to break a wall? Combine a three-dot artifact with a social attack and convince the wall it would be in its best interest to get out of your way.

Exalted isn't a flawless game (Point me to one that is). But I've found properly STed, well-peopled games to be massively entertaining. At the very least, give Exalted a try. Maybe you'll find you don't like it, but maybe you will, and you won't really know until you try it, whatever we posters tell you.

RPGuru1331
2010-02-28, 05:17 PM
Perhaps somewhere in between these two extremes lies the truth...

No, that's the fallacy of the middle. What actually happens will vary wildly between groups. Exalted of all stripes have the ability to do whatever the hell they please to the world at large, generally*. Whether or not that potential is squandered by being someone's tools will depend on the characters, the players, and the ST. About the only thing I think might be 'canon' limited is the ability of the Dragonblooded to create and maintain the magical and magitech awesome of the First Age.

*This means you will be opposed by other Exalted. From a meta-perspective, the various types of Exalted were made to be able to beat the others, depending on circumstances. What FatR appears to be referring to is the possibility to have, say, elder Wyld Hunt officials show up and clean house starting with your PCs, both outnumbering and outgunning you. Which doesn't strike me as being terribly different from any other game where there's something bigger then you that you need to oppose.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-28, 05:21 PM
Not my words, but I'm gonna use 'em anyway.


Exalted: I am a god amongst men, great enough that, given time I may rise to shatter the very underpinnings of Heaven and Earth, crush Hell underneath my sandaled feet, transform the bleak and sorrowful Afterlife of those who choose to stay, into a wondrous world of hope and joy that may be rivaled only by the sheer happiness of being in a world ruled by a being such as myself, yet I still have my feet of clay.

Arrayed against me are a curse, uttered by dying beings greater than the reality around them, dark, twisted versions of others like me, now turned to serve a force that seeks to ultimately end all existence, in a quest to satiate its endless hunger, mad Titans, trapped in the body of their leader, warring desperately to get out, insane monsters from beyond the edge of the universe, that only take a form to devour the sanity and reason of mortal man, and others like me, who believe that my very existence is more dangerous than all of the above, combined.

Now, in a world like this, how will I be remembered? What legends will grow from my deeds?

The_Snark
2010-02-28, 05:30 PM
For all their supposed Ultimate Cosmic Power (tm), Solars feel like just kind of Perfect Beatsticks, at least out of the Core manual. Yes, they're good at what they do - but they really only do perfectly normal stuff, only better, with no awesome feats of WTF, which is kind of dissapointing after hearing all people say.

Really, if you want interesting powers, I can't help but feel a Lunar or Sidereal game might work a lot better...

That's kinda the point of Solars. They do things a normal person could do, only amplified to a level that normal people could never actually accomplish (sometimes because it wasn't physically possible until the Solar made it so). remember, They have the most raw power out of any of the Exalted types, and the others make up for it by diversifying into quirky areas like shapeshifting and manipulating Fate.

I'm not quite sure what awesome feats of WTF you were thinking of, but this is possibly a case of the over-hyping you'll find sometimes on the Internet. It also might be a case of not realizing that "add tons of dice to X roll" can actually be really cool. That 20-dice Archery pool isn't just a powerful attack. You could bounce a shot off a tree, a rock, a seagull, three people's helmets, and then hit your target in the back of the head.

In some ways, they have the most subtle sort of magic: they don't transform into animals, or use magic to ensure that there's always a ship going where they want to go. But when their abilities go head-to-head with other sorts of abilities, they generally win.


It was said earlier that the setting of Exalted 'feels like it will still unravel/unfold/stuff will happen even if you never play in it.' That made me take caution; should not a setting be designed with player interaction and meddling in mind?

It's been said that Exalted allows incredible freedom to change the course of history, or let your character become just another pointless stroke in the grander painting.

Perhaps somewhere in between these two extremes lies the truth...

Indeed it is. From what I've heard, White Wolf has a slight tendency to overplan their settings, as with the old World of Darkness and its various apocalypse plots; this can be a good thing or a bad thing depewnding on if you likew the plots they come up with. Exalted doesn't do that so much, but recently there's been a book that will supposedly detail why the Scarlet Empress disappeared and what was going on with that. I'm... not sure I like that, as I feel the setting should have some central mysteries left for the Storyteller and players to explore, but it isn't as if they're forcing people to use that book, so oh well.

In general, the many factions and NPCs generally have their goals outlined reasonably clearly, their current allies/resources/rivals sketched out, and their actual plans left very vague, so that the Storyteller can invent a plot that fits his campaign. The basic assumption of the setting is that the newly returned Solars are the rampaging bulls that have just been set loose in a market full of intricate china-shop schemes. They change the world, they throw off plans, they foil schemes. They will quickly attract people who'd like to recruit or use them, and nothing is stopping them from fighting for someone else's cause, but they can also choose to strike out on their own.

As Yuki says, the setting as-written is heading downhill. It's up to the PCs to stop that. Maybe not single-handedly—while your group works to foil the Yozi Reclamation, there are presumably Lunars battling the encroaching Wyld, other Solars preventing the Deathlords' schemes from advancing unopposed, and so on—but the story focuses on your characters, so that all happens off-screen, and isn't important until your characters decide to get involved with it.

Weimann
2010-02-28, 08:09 PM
Yes, that Salina.Wait, what Salina? :smallconfused:

I should also mention, one of the big things that really really really sold me on Exalted was... the Charm names.

Seriously. Seven Shadow Evasion. Immunity To Everything Technique. So Speaks Cecelyne. Flood Of Victory Prana. Beauty Is In The Eye. You And Yours Stance. Wanting And Fearing Prayer. Piston-Driven Megaton Hammer.

How can you NOT want to use these?!

horngeek
2010-02-28, 08:21 PM
Spell-Shattering Palm.

Exactly what it says on the tin.

Seriously, how can you not love it when someone can PUNCH a spell out of existence? :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 08:23 PM
Salina. Inventor of the Salinan style of sorcery, and the worker of the Salinan Working, the method by which Creation ensues prospective sorcerers go through the five trials even before they have any interest in sorcery.

She was a Zenith, not a Twilight.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 08:34 PM
Seriously. Seven Shadow Evasion. Immunity To Everything Technique. So Speaks Cecelyne. Flood Of Victory Prana. Beauty Is In The Eye. You And Yours Stance. Wanting And Fearing Prayer. Piston-Driven Megaton Hammer.

Scroll of the Monk has some of the best ones, in my opinion. Vindictive Concubine's Pillow Book Understanding, Inevitable Victory Meditation, Walking in the Footsteps of Ten-thousand Things and Four Halo Golden Monkey Alignment come to mind.

The_Snark
2010-02-28, 08:44 PM
My one quibble with Scroll of the Monk's names is that First Pulse style should not have been named in the same style as all the others. It isn't a formal style taught in dojos and practiced by enlightened martial arts masters, it's learned in the gladiator pits and on the streets and practiced by tough, no-nonsense people who don't believe in fighting fair. Rather than Introduction to the Stone Prince and Bird of Paradise Whistles in the North, it should have had Kicking 'Em While They're Down Technique and No Sudden Movements Meditation, and so on.

Would have been a highly amusing contrast to the rest of the book.

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-02-28, 08:53 PM
Scroll of the Monk has some of the best ones, in my opinion. Vindictive Concubine's Pillow Book Understanding, Inevitable Victory Meditation, Walking in the Footsteps of Ten-thousand Things and Four Halo Golden Monkey Alignment come to mind.

OK, that one really needs to be elaborated upon.

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 09:00 PM
OK, that one really needs to be elaborated upon.Well there's a martial arts style called Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, incidentally it is my favorite style, as my other potential favorite style does not exist (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0251.html), but if it did, it would be my second favorite.

The gist of the charm is negating armor soak, hitting you where it hurts asitwere, just like a vindictive concubine can hurt you with a few choice words.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-02-28, 09:09 PM
One of the most famous Solar Sorcerers ever was a Zenith. Perhaps you recognise her name: it's Salina.

Yes, that Salina.
This Salina? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGbjJarMeA)

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 09:39 PM
This Salina? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGbjJarMeA)

Common mistake, but no.

wadledo
2010-02-28, 09:46 PM
So the Fair Folk are obsessed by stories, and willingly commit their actions to arbitrary story conventions?

So they're a group of super-powerful, alien TV Tropers? Wow, that really does sound scary.

Also, I'd just like to point out that in an IRL Lunars game I'm running, I'm portraying the raksha who live in the wyld zone that keeps Mt. Metagalapa exactly like this, only with more:http://www.upmyownass.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/my-hair-is-a-bird-argument-invalid-386x449.jpg

The players have no bloody clue what's going on and their enjoying it.
Or at least I am.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-02-28, 09:50 PM
Well there's a martial arts style called Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, incidentally it is my favorite style, as my other potential favorite style does not exist (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0251.html), but if it did, it would be my second favorite.

The gist of the charm is negating armor soak, hitting you where it hurts asitwere, just like a vindictive concubine can hurt you with a few choice words.

You know, I've always wondered, if the Sidereal's are supposed to be so incredibly sneaky and underhanded, why is the White Veil so much better at it then them? Or at least, why would it be, if it existed, which it doesn't.

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-28, 09:54 PM
The gist of the charm is negating armor soak, hitting you where it hurts asitwere, just like a vindictive concubine can hurt you with a few choice words.

It culminates in a charm that turns you into a floating fish made of pure Essence and is such pure bliss that you might ascend to Lethe on accident. Yes, there's a (few) dirty joke(s) in there and no, I won't point them out.


Would have been a highly amusing contrast to the rest of the book.

Go for the Low Hanging Fruit Prana. Surprise Knee to the Kidneys Maneuver. Fist Crushes Throat Concentration. Advancement of Bringing A Gun To A Knife Fight.

wadledo
2010-02-28, 09:55 PM
You know, I've always wondered, if the Sidereal's are supposed to be so incredibly sneaky and underhanded, why is the White Veil so much better at it then them? Or at least, why would it be, if it existed, which it doesn't.Because all true sidereals are part of the White Veil Society, and all the sidereals are actually first age solars who think they tricked the universe into thinking that they died, while the returning solars/abyssals/infernals are actually Lunar exaltations permanently mindwiped by the first age solars.
The Lunars? Automata.

The Demented One
2010-02-28, 10:05 PM
At one point, I had an Unshaped Raksha link to TV Tropes in its dialogue. Them things is crazy. :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 10:07 PM
At one point, I had an Unshaped Raksha link to TV Tropes in its dialogue. Them things is crazy. :smallbiggrin:

It also addressed one of the players and quoted itself from further back in the thread.

Kyeudo
2010-02-28, 11:40 PM
The fact that the game gives you very few useable adventures, no monster manual that does not suck, and NPCs generation that takes hours is fact.

Few usable adventures? Every chapter of every book oozes plot hooks. There's like a dozen ways that Gem alone is about to be destroyed, enough political intrigue between the Great Houses to float a yacht on, and one can always go tomb raiding in the Scavenger Lands. I hear Densandsor is great this time of year. If you can't take what they have there and run with it, you need to get a new hobby.

No monster manual? WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM!?!?! So you don't have stats for the greater swamp yak. Your main foes can light themselves on fire with a thought, walk on air, and heal people from mortally wounded to only seriously bruised in seconds. Who needs stats for the swamp yak?

NPC generation falls into two categories: Extras and people who matter. In the course of the game, most people fall into the first category. They get dice pools in the 3-8 range for just about everything and may as well die in one hit. People who matter, well, matter, so spending 15-30 minutes figuring out just what the villian's fighting style looks like gives me a good handle on who he is as a character.


The fact that the combat lacks tactical diversity and meaningful options, so you won't get any enjoyment from attempting to outwargame your players is fact.

I like the simplicity. So combat isn't all about where the wizard put the wall of stone and the cloudkill spell and whether or not the fighter can charge and whether the rogue gets his full routine of two-weapon fighting sneak attacks. If you want that in a game, go do some tabletop wargaming. Combat in Exalted is about how cool I make my attack discription. I beat the other guy if I can out-cool him. My best option is to do whatever the heck would be the most awesome thing right now, even if that means rolling my 2 dots in Martial Arts instead of my 5 dots in Melee just so I can kick the guy in the face.



The fact that mechanics are completely inconsistent with the setting is fact.

Odd. I find Exalted to be one of the most mechanically consistant settings out there.


Similarly, the fact that Uber-NPCs >>>>> You is fact.

False. The Mask of Winters has been shown to be defeatable by a Solar Circle with less than 100 xp each. If you are referring to anyone who knows a Sidereal Martial Arts Style, that's because there are problems with Sidereal Martial Arts.


The fact that dicepools are completely out of hand is fact.

This one, at least, can be true. However, there is something to be said for the sensation of dumping 20 dice on the table and knowing you could have thrown an extra 5 or 10 in if you had actually felt like it.


The fact that you cannot safisfyingly emulate relatively weak and straightforward characters, like Spiderman, at character generation, is fact. And so on.

Spiderman is easily imitatible with four or five Solar Charms, as has been said. Besides, the system was designed to let you emulate Superman, not Spiderman. If you have to work a little bit to be Squirrel Girl because there are more "punch people five miles" Charms than "talk to animals" Charms, that doesn't bother me.


In the end, FatR, most of your problems with the system boil down to you getting stuck with a D&D DM at the helm of your Exalted game.

Weimann
2010-03-01, 08:38 AM
And, should you actually need stats for said swamp yak, it's easy to just treat him as an extra with a 5-7 dice attack pool and a -2 penalty to attacks against him because he smells like crap from living in a swamp, unless you succeed on a Stamina+Resistance roll. It really doesn't have to be more complicated.

Indon
2010-03-01, 09:24 AM
Also, I keep finding it funny that that lazy jerkass Sun is supposed to be the most virtuous thing in the world. Says a lot about the Exalted world, really :smalltongue:.

I think this says more about the Games of Divinity.

I wrote out a fascinating story possibility a while ago about a Primordial who wrote himself out of existence and was forgotten - because said primordial reforged its' souls into an artifact weapon and Exalt shard and joined Creation. That primordial became of the view that the entirety of creation - and particularly the Games of Divinity, was simply a massive machine the Primordials created, subconsciously, in order to kill themselves, and said Primordial wanted to become a part of that machine.

I'll probably write it up on this forum when I get around to finishing the artifact weapon.


Here's my question: how many sessions would it take for you(assuming moderately-fast XP'ing) to be able to kill the high-end opponents like:
A) Deathlords
B) Neverborn/Yozis/Primordials(as I understand they're pretty much the same thing, just in a different state of corruption)
C) High end gods(as I understand there are gods for pebbles and stuff, so we're talking about big guys here)
D) Behemoths

or the other big bads(or their Dragons) of the setting? Let's assume that you're a solar party going against a single opponent(unless the opponent explicitly summons others to help him and/or is expected to have an entourage) and you're moderately optimized(in D&D terms you're a Batman Wizard but not an Incantatrix and certainly not a Tainted Scholar).

I'm asking because White Wolf has a terrible habit of making the players into ants compared to the Super Special NPCs that populate the game and I'm really having doubts about them delivering on the promise of how uber the characters really are.

I ran a game for about a year weekly, with an average of about 5 XP per session, for a group of players who were used to playing D&D.

The game had solidly entered the world-changing phase when the campaign petered out. A while back they barreled into Rathess, revived sleeping first-age Dragon Kings (they're humanoid dinosaurs), trained up the population of Rathess into a servicable army and used that army to defeat an army of Beastmen, and then went on their way leaving Rathess in the control of the Dragon Kings. So, in short, they built an army of dinosaur people that they gave up because they thought they had better things to do.

After a quick interlude where they went to trial against a high-ranking god, and won, which ended up with the god's demotion, they teamed up with another Solar who was building his own kingdom at the western edge of Creation, kept him from destroying said kingdom in his hubris, and led an army of supernatural beings into Onyx (successfully, I might add, though they never did figure out if they destroyed the Silver Prince or if he withdrew), bringing them fully into the Big Boys league of complicated schemes and such, drawing the attention of powerful Sidereals, and so on. Basically from there they were going to just do bigger and bigger Creation-revamping things.

The characters were Essence 3-5, and a mixed-type group. One was 5 and contemplating figuring out a way to hit Essence 6 (I houserule Essence 6 and up to be harder and more interesting to get). The game would've ramped up faster had I not needed to train my group out of a D&D mindset.


This is where I disagree with you. I do not think Fair Folk have emotions as we understand them. I believe they gain emotions by putting on it's role like a suit. A Fae wearing the guise of a warlord in Creation will have the emotions of a warlord, because that is it's role in the story of Creation. The closest mortal, and I use that term loosely, emotion the Fae come to is curiosity and that is centered toward Creation.
That's how it starts, certainly.

But Creation is reality, and conveys reality to the Fae. Mostly this consists of stories, since thanks to how Fate works, narration is physical law in Creation and the Fae take forms appropriate to this, but there's nothing saying this can't extend. After all, for Fae, even their own rules are made to be broken as they interact in Creation.


Elusive Dream Defense offers a near-immunity from mindscrew, but does not prevent Ebon Dragon from just beating you up (and then mindscrewing you, if he wishes, because by that point you'll have no juice to invoke it).

I don't think the books properly conveyed to you how the Exalted universe works.

The Ebon Dragon would not attack an Exalt physically - he is a coward. No, it doesn't matter if he was overwhelmingly likely to win. The Ebon Dragon is not a rational being and does not think that way.

In fact, almost nothing in the Exalted universe is rational, like you seem to be implying they should be. Almost all the beings of Exalted run on a more vanilla version of the narrative 'laws' that the fae follow - the Virtues for higher-Essence beings, or Fate for lower-Essence ones.

Thoughts like, "I have X motes and can drain YZ motes from my opponent by invoking this specific combo..." etc, are things that do not happen in the Exalted universe. They are against the very nature of Creation.

Lochar
2010-03-01, 09:46 AM
If you want to read an interesting tale of someone taking on the Ebon Dragon, I'm doing it right now in my game.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7986781

Essence 5, with only a few extra charms that weren't XP bought, but they're not in current use of this anyways.

RPGuru1331
2010-03-01, 10:46 AM
"The game would've ramped up faster had I not needed to train my group out of a D&D mindset."

I've noticed that the perceived need for a Paranoia Combo prior to Ess 4/5 (Reflex Sidestep + SSE, SAM/HGD, etc) is inversely related to one's enjoyment of Exalted, and that the 'DnD mindset' seems to lead to an incredibly large 'need' for such a combo.

WalkingTarget
2010-03-01, 10:56 AM
"The game would've ramped up faster had I not needed to train my group out of a D&D mindset."

I've noticed that the perceived need for a Paranoia Combo prior to Ess 4/5 (Reflex Sidestep + SSE, SAM/HGD, etc) is inversely related to one's enjoyment of Exalted, and that the 'DnD mindset' seems to lead to an incredibly large 'need' for such a combo.

Hell, I was the one to posit the SAM/HGD combo early in this thread and I never bothered putting a paranoia combo together at all in a game where we got to those Essence levels. I had SAM, but I trusted our ST enough to not blindside us to the point that a properly stunted full dodge wouldn't be enough to get us by if we needed to activate it.

Indon
2010-03-01, 11:24 AM
Hell, I was the one to posit the SAM/HGD combo early in this thread and I never bothered putting a paranoia combo together at all in a game where we got to those Essence levels. I had SAM, but I trusted our ST enough to not blindside us to the point that a properly stunted full dodge wouldn't be enough to get us by if we needed to activate it.

In the game I was talking about, I started to introduce perfect attacks and defenses when my group started to ease into the proper nationbuilding mindset.

In fact, the first time I had an NPC use them heavily, it was against the party's Dragon-Blood. He was the guy who reached 5 Essence and wanted to push 6 to gain a competitive advantage.

By the time all the group had broken the Essence 5 barrier, I wanted combat to be more like high-level anime combat, where the fight could be decided with a single decisive blow so characters needed to be careful about extending themselves. Getting the players into that combat mindset was a slow process, but rewarding and fun.

Sophismata
2010-03-01, 11:28 AM
Not quite. Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) over on TVTropes doesn't require admiration or sympathy from the audience. Certainly the Ebon Dragon is a ****, but that doesn't disqualify him from Magnificent Bastard status.

TV Tropes has (again, it seems) changed the MB page, and there are arguments still going on about it, so don't look into it too much.

The thing that keeps coming up is that a Magnificent Bastard is, above all, Magnificent. That tends to engender a certain kind of admiration for the character.

WalkingTarget
2010-03-01, 11:48 AM
Oh, there were perfects in our group, we just hadn't all invested in paranoia combos to make sure that we weren't hit with a super-mega-ultra death combo in our sleep or whatever.

We had a running gag about the hypothetical guy who had a SAM Combo to Summon the Loyal Steel his dire lance from Elsewhere, don some Glorious Solar Plate, and summon a Phantom Steed and set it off when he got startled by somebody tapping him on the shoulder to ask the time (for extra lulz he had 0 resources and looked like a bum normally).

Then again, there was an NPC Solar we had started getting involved with who really, really, really could have used a paranoia combo, but his untimely death made for a great story, so YMMV on their usefulness.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-01, 12:43 PM
The thing that keeps coming up is that a Magnificent Bastard is, above all, Magnificent. That tends to engender a certain kind of admiration for the character.

Magnificence refers to scale as well as grandiose actions, not simply admiration. As such a Magnificent Bastard can simply be a bastard of epic scale or incredibly grandiose plans.

As for paranoia combos: I don't think any of my PCs had one, though most of my Abyssal fighters will end up taking Ebon Lightning Prana. So I guess I inspire paranoia combos instead of require them. :smalltongue:

PinkysBrain
2010-03-01, 01:04 PM
The Ebon Dragon would not attack an Exalt physically - he is a coward. No, it doesn't matter if he was overwhelmingly likely to win. The Ebon Dragon is not a rational being and does not think that way.
Even most cowards will fight with their back in a corner. This is not about foiling one of his plots. The original argument was about making differences on a cosmic scale, so the permanent power balance has to shift ... which in this case means either the Ebon Dragon has to stop being the Ebon Dragon (complete unbreakable mind control similar to the curse, or turning him into something similar to the Yozis) or he has to die.

Whether he wouldn't choose to confront you directly or not is irrelevant, he isn't being given the choice.

RPGuru1331
2010-03-01, 01:07 PM
He'd still probably hide behind his Component Souls. At best, you can expect him to intervene when.. Erembour, I think it was, his Fetich is under threat.

Since each Primordial has something tot he tune of 119 component souls, he's probably not going to fight until 'forced' to, and destroying his Fetich would do... something to him. Something unpleasant.

Kyeudo
2010-03-01, 01:19 PM
Nitpicks:
Erembour is not his Fetich, and most Yozis only have about three dozen component souls, not 120.
The Ebon Dragon is already a Yozi.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-01, 01:19 PM
Since each Primordial has something to the tune of 119 component souls, he's probably not going to fight until 'forced' to, and destroying his Fetich would do... something to him. Something unpleasant.

The question is: Unpleasant to him or unpleasant to you? The Dragon's Shadow became the Ebon Dragon itself when... Something, made him 'lesser'. Before he was the shadow of all things, but now he is the master of shadows. So what will his next incarnation be? I would leave him as an impotent being of hate and selfish indignation than risk his transformation into a threat.

Sophismata
2010-03-01, 11:18 PM
Magnificence refers to scale as well as grandiose actions

I never said it didn't.

Axelgear
2010-03-02, 09:46 PM
Not to stumble into this with something totally unrelated midway through but... Someone once said that Exalted is a game where you can have a group of leper ninjas beating you with their own removed, half-rotten limbs and no-one will question it.

I'm trying to decide what next to put on my book list for it: The Wyld and Underworld setting books OR the Lunar's book OR Wonders of the Lost Age and one of the two setting books.

Any suggestions?

The Demented One
2010-03-02, 10:00 PM
If you want to read an interesting tale of someone taking on the Ebon Dragon, I'm doing it right now in my game.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7986781

Essence 5, with only a few extra charms that weren't XP bought, but they're not in current use of this anyways.
You are going to brag about this forever, aren't you?

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-02, 10:13 PM
Not to stumble into this with something totally unrelated midway through but... Someone once said that Exalted is a game where you can have a group of leper ninjas beating you with their own removed, half-rotten limbs and no-one will question it.

I'm trying to decide what next to put on my book list for it: The Wyld and Underworld setting books OR the Lunar's book OR Wonders of the Lost Age and one of the two setting books.

Any suggestions?

Lunars is always a good purchase. And if you're gonna buy that, The Wyld is a good purchase as well.

RPGuru1331
2010-03-02, 10:46 PM
Not to stumble into this with something totally unrelated midway through but... Someone once said that Exalted is a game where you can have a group of leper ninjas beating you with their own removed, half-rotten limbs and no-one will question it.

I'm trying to decide what next to put on my book list for it: The Wyld and Underworld setting books OR the Lunar's book OR Wonders of the Lost Age and one of the two setting books.

Any suggestions?

Apropos of nothing, Lunars Book. Wonders is better if you have someone who loves Magitech (As a concept, or the stuff in Exalted). As setting information, I'd take The Lunars over the specific books. The Lunars goes over a lot of awesome things and better fleshes the Lunars out even as an antagonist group.

To be honest, the Compasses are legitimately neat, but compared to the competition, they don't do very well.

Jerthanis
2010-03-03, 03:16 AM
To be honest, the Compasses are legitimately neat, but compared to the competition, they don't do very well.

The Compasses are the single best books to buy for running a game. Each chapter is practically a campaign's worth of plothooks centered around one kingdom/organization ect. Weave a couple together and you've got enough material to fill a year of gaming. I've done pretty much just that; twice, in fact.

And the idea of leper ninjas is sort of the dark side of Exalted. When your mandate is "Awesome set to 11! Let nothing stop you, especially not reason!" you can easily get carried away and the product isn't actually awesome anymore. Exalted is extremely vulnerable to this.

Terraoblivion
2010-03-03, 05:43 AM
The Compasses are also just a plain good read. However, i think i will side with RPGuru here. They are less immediately useful than the other books in most cases. Also there are a lot more than two compasses. There are ten in total.

horngeek
2010-03-03, 06:08 AM
I tend to gravitate towards characters from the West, for some reason.

Maybe I just have a 'thing' for blue hair. :smalltongue:

Terraoblivion
2010-03-03, 06:13 AM
Blue hair is neat. You can be from pretty much anywhere and have it, especially if you write in some minor spirit ancestry somewhere. But even if you don't you can, though west and north is probably most appropriate for it.

horngeek
2010-03-03, 07:14 AM
Well, I like the West anyway, for some reason.

Maybe it has to do with living on the largest island in the world... :smalltongue:

Terraoblivion
2010-03-03, 07:24 AM
So you are from Greenland? :smalltongue:

Though admittedly i think you mean Australia.

In any case the West is fighting the North for being my least favorite direction. I really like the South, though. And much of the East too. Doesn't stop all directions from being cool, at least.

Jerthanis
2010-03-03, 11:32 AM
The Compasses are also just a plain good read. However, i think i will side with RPGuru here. They are less immediately useful than the other books in most cases. Also there are a lot more than two compasses. There are ten in total.

Well, here's the thing. A single Compass book tells you 100% of the information about a specific region of the world. Just one of the Manuals of Exalted Power, books of sorcery/esoteric knowledge or other will tell you 10% of the things you will find in that place.

Obviously though, NPC statblocks are worthless without those support books though. Just try guessing what "Shell Crushing Atemi" or "Wolf and Pack Tactics" do without the Lunars book, so they can get you that way, but still, I say Compass is the place to start as a Storyteller.

RPGuru1331
2010-03-03, 12:00 PM
My reason for considering the Compasses less useful is their specificity. How Lunars, for instance, work registers in my head as a basic setting assumption. The specifics on how Paragon or Stygia operates, though? That seems a bit more constricting. They're useful for neat hooks or inspiration, but compared to how Lunars (Or Sidereals, Abyssals, Autobots, etc) set themselves up, it just doesn't measure up, in my mind. But your logic seems Fine Too.

Swooper
2010-03-03, 03:00 PM
Starting my first Exalted game soon, a dragonblooded pbp game. I have a simple rules question, so instead of starting a new thread (and since there's no Exalted QA thread) I thought I'd throw the question into this one, since it's pretty much derailed into a generic Exalted discussion anyway.

The question is this: Do Jade Hearthstone Bracers and Jade weapons stack for purposes of Speed, or are the bracers not meant to apply to Melee weapons (the description says "hand-to-hand or ranged attacks" - does 'hand-to-hand' mean bare-fisted combat only?) ?

RPGuru1331
2010-03-03, 03:13 PM
One of the errata that I've seen recently is "Speed can only go down to 3", but yes, they do stack. Hand to hand isn't just Martial Arts, it's everything done in melee range.

Jerthanis
2010-03-03, 03:42 PM
The question is this: Do Jade Hearthstone Bracers and Jade weapons stack for purposes of Speed, or are the bracers not meant to apply to Melee weapons (the description says "hand-to-hand or ranged attacks" - does 'hand-to-hand' mean bare-fisted combat only?) ?

Rules as Written they do, though it was clarified later that speed has a hard cap at 3 and nothing can go faster.

That said, DO NOT LET THEM STACK.

Trust me, it's a terrible idea. There is more wrong with Speed 3 Goremauls than there is from Speed 2 Short Daiklaives.

Jade is already the best magical material without letting the bracers just exacerbate the problem.

Sophismata
2010-03-03, 08:57 PM
Hand-to-Hand refers to melee, in this case. Do not let speed lower below 3, ever, because the game breaks. Instead, increase rate or DV or something. They recently errata'd the 3 thing, IIRC, but it's been known for a while.

Speed 2 Daiklaives are way better than a Speed 3 Goremaul. They get to act 50% more often, and will thus control the battle. Remember - you're locked into a charm once you use it.

Jerthanis
2010-03-04, 12:36 AM
Speed 2 Daiklaives are way better than a Speed 3 Goremaul. They get to act 50% more often, and will thus control the battle. Remember - you're locked into a charm once you use it.

Even if this were the case, which I contest to be false, how exactly would speed 3 goremauls be not absurdly broken in a world where short daiklaives can't go faster compared to one they can? any kind of system or world?

Seriously, don't let them stack. I let them stack in one game and regretted it until the premature end of that game.

Sophismata
2010-03-05, 08:21 AM
Even if this were the case, which I contest to be false, how exactly would speed 3 goremauls be not absurdly broken in a world where short daiklaives can't go faster compared to one they can? any kind of system or world?

Oh, speed 3 goremauls are absurdly powerful. But speed 2 anything is better. Speed 1 anything is better still, by a whole new order of magnitude.

Indon
2010-03-05, 09:08 AM
Oh, speed 3 goremauls are absurdly powerful. But speed 2 anything is better. Speed 1 anything is better still, by a whole new order of magnitude.

Indeed. With Speed 1 anything you could flurry any opponents' DV to zero and still be fully prepared to defend when his attack comes up.