LGBTitp - Part Five

[golentan]

Does relational happenings factor in there at all? Falling in love, ect... Or all bisexuals who go for the opposite sex are choosing the easier option?

EDIT: Sorry. It's late and the wording there just rubs me the wrong way.

That's not what I mean and you should know it. Love is fairly rare in your average relationship at least early on, most relationships are feeling out the waters about such things. Love, while the goal, also isn't enough to keep something going. Pragmatism, unfortunately, is. I'm not condoning, I'm not condemning. I'm pointing out the logic in choosing to pursue one option over another, and explaining what might account for what the one named Nameless Ghost might have seen, because that rubbed me the wrong way.

[Nameless Ghost]

Just to clarify, by "claiming" I meant something closer to "pretending", as in "claiming to be bisexual but actually isn't". As in, "some teenaged girls might claim to be bisexual because it's the "in" thing, but in actual fact they aren't."

I figured this was implied but re-reading it I can see it's probably not as obvious as I thought. Sorry that came across the wrong way, I'mma go edit my post to make it more obvious.

[Asta Kask]

That certainly makes more sense as for a possible rationale.

Where this idea of a switch arose from though, is a mystery.

Dichotomizing is something the human mind does fairly often. It makes life easier if there are only two options to consider and, to be fair, it very often works.

Take the idea of gender - most people are fairly consistently uni-gendered in all dimensions. Transsexuality is the exception, not the rule. So the idea that you are either male or female works most of the time and saves a lot of time and effort.

Similarly, if you assume that everyone is heterosexual, you'll be right 90% of the time and it will save a lot of work and potential embarassment trying to find out. You don't have to hand everyone a checklist every time. So it's understandable, even if it is - strictly speaking - inaccurate.

[Beelzebub1111]

Well. today is the day that I come out to my friend. Wish me luck!

[Lix Lorn]

Good luck!

[Asta Kask]

Well. today is the day that I come out to my friend. Wish me luck!

I don't believe in luck. But I hope it goes well, and you have my support from across the ocean.

[Beelzebub1111]

Well, that was anticlimactic. She said that she "figured it out"...and that's about it. woo?

[Deth Muncher]

Well, that was anticlimactic. She said that she "figured it out"...and that's about it. woo?

Eh, happens. I have two friends who everyone pretty much figured it out before they confirmed our suspicions. At least she didn't flip out and hate you, amirite?

[albis]

at least it went nicely XD

[Delta]

Does relational happenings factor in there at all? Falling in love, ect... Or all bisexuals who go for the opposite sex are choosing the easier option?

Alright, I've been doing the lurklurklurk thing for a while now here, haven't been posting much on the boards in general, but feel like I might add my own 2 cents here.

At least for me, it had (and has) nothing to do with that. The reason that I've never had a relationship with a man is simply that I've met the perfect girl for me almost 7 years ago and have been with her ever since. Could've happened the other way around as well I guess, although I admit it's of course a lot easier that way, but it's not as if I deliberately "chose" being with a girl because it's easier.

[Jacklu]

:smallsigh: My reaction last night was a bit uncalled for. I see the logic in what you're saying, I was just tired and grumpy. No hard feelings?

[Coidzor]

Well, that was anticlimactic. She said that she "figured it out"...and that's about it. woo?

I was suitemates with a guy who we had all pegged as gay the year before he came out to us. I believe even his dad and sisters weren't particularly caught by surprise when he came out to them. Can't remember whether his mom had a heart attack like he had feared, but I'm guessing not.

Suffice to say, we didn't much care that he liked dudes.

[Delta]

No hard feelings?

Absolutely not :) My post wasn't supposed to sound angry or anything like that, it was just an explanation, I can understand the point of view that question was coming from. I'm lucky enough to know that my family wouldn't have much of a problem if I ever came out (although my mother probably would have much less of a problem with a gay son than with a bi one... she told me once that she absolutely simply couldn't understand bisexuality ;) ) I simply didn't do so because it never came up and wasn't necessary, so if I ever fell in love with a man, I wouldn't let such difficulties hold me back.

[CrimsonAngel]

Came out to 3 people today! One was proud that I was brave enough to do that, one is apparently bi to, and one found out when we were playing truth or dare, so whenever I picked truth he'd ask about that. He asked if I thought he was hot, but I said no. :smallfrown:

[Coidzor]

Is that what spawned the fight? :smallconfused:

[CrimsonAngel]

No, that was a whole other guy. Why would one of those hetero fellows beat up a Bi kid for not telling him he's hot? Besides, this guy is scrawny. :smalltongue:

[RabbitHoleLost]

Um...for me? Yes there is a HUGE rational factor in there. I love people who I choose not to pursue, because it's not viable, or not as viable.

And as for going for the easy option: I'm much pickier about girls than guys, so it's logical that the chances of me finding a guy I both like and think is viable are greater than those with a girl.

Same here.
But there's also the number game.
Statistically speaking, there are a lot less gay women than there are straight men.
Then you have to figure out which are lesbians that don't like bisexuals, and then you have to play the liking game, and which one of those girls that still might be attracted to you still is attractive TO you, and which one you get along with...
It significantly narrows the pool.

[Beelzebub1111]

I was suitemates with a guy who we had all pegged as gay the year before he came out to us. I believe even his dad and sisters weren't particularly caught by surprise when he came out to them. Can't remember whether his mom had a heart attack like he had feared, but I'm guessing not.

Suffice to say, we didn't much care that he liked dudes.

But...that's what worries me. I'm by no means a flamboyant individual, nor do I think I follow any stereotypes. I mean, sure not having any girlfriends, but I'm also socially awkward.

Have I been giving off signals? How many other friends know already? crap...stupid paranoid self.

[CrimsonAngel]

But...that's what worries me. I'm by no means a flamboyant individual, nor do I think I follow any stereotypes. I mean, sure not having any girlfriends, but I'm also socially awkward.

Have I been giving off signals? How many other friends know already? crap...stupid paranoid self.

Best set fire to them.

[cycoris]

Same here.
But there's also the number game.
Statistically speaking, there are a lot less gay women than there are straight men.
Then you have to figure out which are lesbians that don't like bisexuals, and then you have to play the liking game, and which one of those girls that still might be attracted to you still is attractive TO you, and which one you get along with...
It significantly narrows the pool.

Mmm, yes, yes. I meant more that on top of all that, there's also the fact that I'm pickier about women, which makes the chances of me ever being in a relationship with one slim to none, delightful though I may find them. :smalltongue:

[MikelaC1]

After reading so many of the horror stories about 'coming out', Im sort of glad I never had to. Both of my parents died before I figured out that I was Bi, and the few other relatives live several provinces away. And considering that where I work, being Bi is more accepted, perhaps even expected, Ive never had a problem. And when I started my first long term committed relationship with a woman (whom I am still with, lov ya Debbie), it was met with no real reaction. Perhaps Ive missed a part of personal growth that would come with such a war, but I think Im better off without it.

[CrimsonAngel]

After reading so many of the horror stories about 'coming out', Im sort of glad I never had to. Both of my parents died before I figured out that I was Bi, and the few other relatives live several provinces away. And considering that where I work, being Bi is more accepted, perhaps even expected, Ive never had a problem. And when I started my first long term committed relationship with a woman (whom I am still with, lov ya Debbie), it was met with no real reaction. Perhaps Ive missed a part of personal growth that would come with such a war, but I think Im better off without it.

Showoff. :smalltongue:

[RabbitHoleLost]

Mmm, yes, yes. I meant more that on top of all that, there's also the fact that I'm pickier about women, which makes the chances of me ever being in a relationship with one slim to none, delightful though I may find them. :smalltongue:

I was agreeing, and also expanding on the original question, too.
However, since I have been in a relationship with a few women, I suppose I'm less picky than you :smalltongue:
Nonetheless, these days, I prefer to sit back and creep out over the few women who pique my interest.
:smallbiggrin:

[Asta Kask]

I have this perception that women are more likely to be Bi than Lesbian, whereas men are more likely to be Gay than Bi. I.e., that men are more extreme on the androphilia/gynophilia axis than women. Does anyone know if it's true or if it's just good ole' confirmation bias* kicking in?

*basically, you see what you expect to see

[golentan]

I have this perception that women are more likely to be Bi than Lesbian, whereas men are more likely to be Gay than Bi. I.e., that men are more extreme on the androphilia/gynophilia axis than women. Does anyone know if it's true or if it's just good ole' confirmation bias* kicking in?

*basically, you see what you expect to see

Bi male here, know very few other bi men in person, more bi women but still more lesbian women than that.

[Coidzor]

I have this perception that women are more likely to be Bi than Lesbian, whereas men are more likely to be Gay than Bi. I.e., that men are more extreme on the androphilia/gynophilia axis than women. Does anyone know if it's true or if it's just good ole' confirmation bias* kicking in?

*basically, you see what you expect to see

Are you sure you're not just modifying that old urban legend about women being bi by default and skewing one way or another through acculturation and developmental experiences and such?

[golentan]

Are you sure you're not just modifying that old urban legend about women being bi by default and skewing one way or another through acculturation and developmental experiences and such?

I'm not going to agree with that stereotype, but there was an interesting study about the physical symptoms of such things recently (as in within the past decade). I'm just not sure if there might not be false positives due to measurement methodology, but a summary is here. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm) It raises interesting questions if nothing else.

[Murdim]

I'm not going to agree with that stereotype, but there was an interesting study about the physical symptoms of such things recently (as in within the past decade). I'm just not sure if there might not be false positives due to measurement methodology, but a summary is here. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm) It raises interesting questions if nothing else.
Not that study again :smallsigh:

Well, to be honest, my reaction was more : Not. That. EFFING. Study. AGAIN ! :smallfurious:

This isn't just an emotional answer. This isn't just because it insults basically everyone except (surprise !) straight and gay males. This isn't just because it's exactly this kind of CRAP that kept me in denial for so long. The study in question, and its alleged results, are plain wrong and unscientific on countless levels. Bailey himself is a notoriously sexist, biphobic and transphobic douche, who takes a visible pleasure in getting rid off the much-needed reservations of the study report when selling his sensationalist bullpoop to the press.

The only reason why this piece of crap is so referenced and so widely used, is because it fits the interests and prejudices of both dominating groups in Bailey's homonormative entourage : heterosexual men, who rule over society in general, and gay men, who rule over the queer community. Think "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", only more moderate, more polite, less aggressive and... well, less Godwin-ish. Actually, think about the way scientists "proved" the superiority of the mighty whitey over niggërs using (biased, unrepresentative) cranial measurements and the (un-/disproven, unscientific) hypothesis that cranium size correlates with intelligence, and you'll be pretty dead-on.

Here are some scathing criticisms of the study, mostly based on another article, published in the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/05/health/05sex.html?_r=1) :
http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/NYTBisexualityFactSheet.pdf
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/Bisexuality/Bisexuality-NYT%207-05-05.html
http://archive.glaad.org/action/write_now_detail.php?id=3827
http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3799
http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=15015

And here are some juicy informations about J. Michael Bailey and his "work" :
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/pinnel-science.html
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/bailey-bisexual.html
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2003/winter/disposable-people/queer-science
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/Bisexuality/Bisexuality-NYT%20Letters%207-12-05.htm
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/LynnsReviewOfBaileysBook.html


As for golentan's article itself, there's still a mind-numbing enormity from Bailey that I want to comment, but that doesn't appear in the study report and in the NYT article.


These findings likely represent a fundamental difference between men's and women's brains and have important implications for understanding how sexual orientation development differs between men and women
No. No, no no. This is beyond error, beyond stupidity, beyond even inconscient prejudice-based bias, straight in the territory of intellectual dishonesty. You're measuring GENITAL REACTION, jackass, not brain activity. What you've just "discovered" is that there's a fundamental difference between men's and women's GENITALIAS, something that most kindergarten children already know, something which is exactly why no honest scientist would ever adventure himself in trying to deduce any psychological difference in men's and women's sexuality by comparing penile and vaginal arousal.



EDIT : Goddammit. GODDAMMIT. How could I have missed THAT ?


To rule out the possibility that the differences between men's and women's genital sexual arousal patterns might be due to the different ways that genital arousal is measured in men and women, the Northwestern researchers identified a subset of subjects: postoperative transsexuals who began life as men but had surgery to construct artificial vaginas.

In a sense, those transsexuals have the brains of men but the genitals of women. Their psychological and genital arousal patterns matched those of men -- those who like men were more aroused by male stimuli and those who like women were more aroused by the female stimuli -- even though their genital arousal was measured in the same way women's was.

"This shows that the sex difference that we found is real and almost certainly due to a sex difference in the brain," said Bailey.
That is pretty much the exact opposite. Male-to-female transsexuals typically have distinctly feminized brains, even before receiving any kind of treatment. Their genitalias are essentially penises who have been grossly reshaped and repurported into a vagina-like form. Female brains. Male genitalias.

This shows that the alleged sex difference that you "found" through an inoperative experimental module is bullpoop and almost certainly due to men having penises and women having vaginas.

[Asta Kask]

Are you sure you're not just modifying that old urban legend about women being bi by default and skewing one way or another through acculturation and developmental experiences and such?

Very possible. But what's your experience? Is it an urban legend?

[Delta]

Very possible. But what's your experience? Is it an urban legend?

In my opinion and experience, it most probably is. It's simply easier in our current cultural environment for a woman to be bi than for a man. Of course I can't offer any scientific studies, but my personal impression is that the genders' distribution on the sexual orientation scale doesn't really differ too much from each other, it's simply that a lot of guys who are at least mildly interested in their own sex rarely admit that.

[Thufir]

In my opinion and experience, it most probably is. It's simply easier in our current cultural environment for a woman to be bi than for a man. Of course I can't offer any scientific studies, but my personal impression is that the genders' distribution on the sexual orientation scale doesn't really differ too much from each other, it's simply that a lot of guys who are at least mildly interested in their own sex rarely admit that.

Additionally, they may be less likely to even realise said interest, because they are less likely to encounter it - women in my experience are much more affectionate towards both genders than men, much more comfortable with physical closeness - and I figure you're probably more likely to realise an attraction to someone the more you get physically close to them (Obviously there are other factors as well, but I suspect this would influence things).

[Totally Guy]

Is there a word for coming out as straight?

I told a colleague that I was going on a date tonight and he asked "What's he like?"
:smallsigh: Another person jumping to conclusions...

I'm not even camp or anything. At least I don't think so.

Most of my friends are non-hetero types from all over the spectrum. It can make me feel lonely.

[rakkoon]

It's not easy, we understand. Couple of years ago:

"Ok so this is my girlfriend"
"Your what?"
"my girlfriend"
"What?"
"My girlfriend" (getting very annoyed)

couple of months later they told me they didn't know I was straight

[Derjuin]

I knew I recognized the name "Bailey" with regards to gender and sexuality studies somewhere...

:smallannoyed: I just pretend people like him don't exist...

[Murdim]

Is there a word for coming out as straight?
Leaving in ? :smallbiggrin:... :smallsmile:... :smallfrown:

A priori, I don't think you have anything to worry about. But I guess it must not always be easy to be the token straight guy in a group of friends.


Very possible. But what's your experience? Is it an urban legend?
My experience says that there's no reason to assume that every straight- or lesbian-identified woman is in fact deluding herself, and lying to others, about her true sexuality. This is the exact same reasoning that makes people think male bisexuals don't really exist, despite the fact we do.

[Asta Kask]

My experience says that there's no reason to assume that every straight- or lesbian-identified woman is in fact deluding herself, and lying to others, about her true sexuality. This is the exact same reasoning that makes people think male bisexuals don't really exist, despite the fact we do.

That's not what I meant to ask. Is there a different ratio of bisexuals/homosexuals in men and women?

[Murdim]

That's not what I meant to ask. Is there a different ratio of bisexuals/homosexuals in men and women?
The "old urban legend" Coidzor alluded to is that women are always bisexual, while men aren't, usually with the implication that they never are. What he was saying is that your assumption that women might lean more towards bisexuality than men, while legitimate in itself, may be based on this harmful urban legend. That's why we should be very careful and reserved about this kind of thing : quantitative differences (women are more likely to be bisexual than men) are easily distorted into qualitative ones (all women are bi, all men are either gay or straight).

[Asta Kask]

The "old urban legend" Coidzor alluded to is that women are always bisexual, while men aren't, usually with the implication that they never are. What he was saying is that your assumption that women might lean more towards bisexuality than men, while legitimate in itself, may be based on this harmful urban legend. That's why we should be very careful and reserved about this kind of thing : quantitative differences (women are more likely to be bisexual than men) are easily distorted into qualitative ones (all women are bi, all men are either gay or straight).

Ok, but if we do look at quantitative differences, being aware that qualititative differences are non-existent, what's your impression?

[Murdim]

Ok, but if we do look at quantitative differences, being aware that qualititative differences are non-existent, what's your impression?
Yeah, sorry. I was being so self-absorbed that I didn't even answer to your question :smallfrown:

Some studies say that men are more likely to be bisexual than women (most notably, the Kinsey report), while others affirm the opposite. In the end, the accepted consensus is that bisexuality exist in both genders in roughly the same proportion. To be honest, most people, myself included, consider women to be more likely to identify as bisexual than men, if only in this time and place... but not in a level significant enough to justify treating one in a different way than the other.

[Ziren]

That's not what I meant to ask. Is there a different ratio of bisexuals/homosexuals in men and women?

I made this observation myself, but I think this has a lot to do with social acceptance rather than a "natural" difference.

I might post more on this later, as I can't seem to find the right words to describe what I mean right now.

[MickJay]

Slightly related, a couple of weeks ago, there was a test on BBC website, for determining whether one's brain is more male or female. Of course, it was full of caveats and warnings about factors that might influence the final result. It's based on a sample of participants, with scale from 0 to 100 for both "male" and "female" brains, average of 50. I was quite amused, however, when one of my friends got a "100% male brain" result, mostly due to not bothering with solving some parts of the test and cheating a bit in one :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

I was 47% female. ^_^ I also got female on a random gender test on Facebook. XD And my souls colour is pink.

[Faulty]

I was 50% female on that BBC test.

[cycoris]

I'm always androgynous on those tests. ALWAYS. :smallbiggrin:

Dunno why this makes me happy...

[Faulty]

I'm always androgynous on those tests. ALWAYS. :smallbiggrin:

Dunno why this makes me happy...

Because you are an androgyne? :smalltongue:

[golentan]

Dammit, did I post the Bailey study? Yeah, that's what I get for skimming articles before linking. I was looking for the one entirely on blood flow and mucilage, and suggested it might actually serve as a defensive mechanism rather than true arousal. Let me look...

Found it, it's the Chivers study. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34688685/ns/health-sexual_health/)

[Dihan]

I just did that BBC test. I got the centre point between the two... Which would be 0%. Does that mean I don't have a brain? :smallconfused:

[Lix Lorn]

XD I doubt it.
I am ever-so-slightly on the female side.

[golentan]

I just did the test and got slightly towards female.

Also, I like really masculine faces on my women. But I knew that (I also like really feminine faces on my men. Also, why I am I referring to "My" people? I don't own anyone. Gah, existential word choice crisis!)

[Quincunx]

Don't worry, Dihan, that means you're exquisitely qualified for civil service. (Actual news a few days ago about a French civil servant who had an MRI and was shown to have very little brain tissue. Hurrah for living a productive life despite what the scan says.)

[Cristo Meyers]

Heh, I ended up smack-dab on the average male brain. I half expected it to skew a bit more towards female, actually.

[Lix Lorn]

I found a better test. It seems to indicate i am definitely a T.
Good. I like being right. (Smile)

[Derjuin]

Humm...I wasn't able to find the BBC test, but then I didn't look very much...hehe.

[Cristo Meyers]

link to the BBC test (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml)

[Asta Kask]

It seems to indicate i am definitely a T.

T? Transgender?

[Graymayre]

I need to say something.

About a year ago I had stopped visiting the GiantITP forum. This had been done for many reasons, but the one that stood starkly against all others had been an intense inner confliction that I carried with me for most of my life.

When I reached puberty, I began to go into intense periods of depression. Feelings of inadequacy, doubt, and despair pervaded every thought. My waking moments were spent just waiting to go back to sleep. In public I wore an emotional mask to hide my depression. I was good at wearing them, no one was ever able to see the torment behind it. In this time, I was never able to grasp what catalyzed these feelings. Numerous visits to two different psychiatrists and the use of several anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications caused absolutely no change in my emotional stature or understanding of my condition.

In 2008, I started visiting this forum for the first time. The group was nice, some of my friends visited, and it was geared toward the activities I enjoyed. Even when I hit a slump this place always let me smile, something I very rarely did in my life.

Some months past my 18th birthday I began to visit this LGBT thread. Far from questioning myself at the time, I was merely curious of it. I did not even know the meaning of the letters.
As I continued to visit the thread, my mind began to wander and question my own feelings. I hated gay men that I had encountered before then. During gym class I loathed and feared changing in front of other men, or even being near them when they did. I had interests that involved women exclusively, and steered from any "male contamination" with a great fervency. But as I asked these new questions, those walls began to crumble. With startling speed my attractions shifted. The former fears and interests I had clung to became phantasmic. As my world changed I was forced to look back on the miasma of depression that followed me and question its grounding. I began to see that my life's tribulations stemmed from this single problem. This revalation shaked me to the core. In the matter of a day it rebirthed me from a pile of ashes into a new person. I felt, for possibly the first time in my life, what happiness really felt like.

I wanted to say this earlier, but I still had fears that needed to be resolved, I had told no one of myself at the time and I knew that my friends visited this site and did not want to reveal myself to them. I knew that I couldn't keep visiting without saying anything, so I decided to just not come back until my problems were resolved. Now I return, a year after my departure, having told my closest friends what I was feeling. No drama occured, full acceptance. And with nothing in the way, I have become even closer to them and myself.

[Lix Lorn]

That's right.
I don't trust the BBC test. It disagrees with every test i've taken, and the questions are very narrow.

[Cristo Meyers]

That's right.
I don't trust the BBC test. It disagrees with every test i've taken, and the questions are very narrow.

Personally I wouldn't trust any test along these lines. I see most of them as a springboard for discussion: you start with what this test (or others) say and move on into what the reality is, even if that disagrees wildly with what the test says.

[Maltore]

That BBC test annoyed me by not letting me do both sets of faces, and now I'd have to redo all 4 first tests if I want to get there again. Blech.

Funny to see that I've a lower digit ratio (0.94) than the average male (0.96) though. I'll have to ask my mother what she was doing during my intra-uterine sleepover.

I have a question for the other bisexual people around: I have very recently realised that I approach sex with a different mindset depending on whether I'm with a male or a female partner. With women I very much want to be active and do things to them, to the point where I don't much care whether they want to reciprocate or not and am just as happy to finish off on my own, whereas with men I just really want to submit. It's not like I don't enjoy playing with my men, but that's firmly categorised under "foreplay, or possibly your reward for all the times I've been quite selfish". Anybody else experience something similar?

[Yora]

I just did the test and got slightly towards female.

Also, I like really masculine faces on my women. But I knew that (I also like really feminine faces on my men. Also, why I am I referring to "My" people? I don't own anyone. Gah, existential word choice crisis!)

But it's good taste anyway. :smallwink:
There seem to be quite some people attracted to androgynous features and who make it known these days. Which I think is really most welcome.

[cycoris]

I just did that BBC test. I got the centre point between the two... Which would be 0%. Does that mean I don't have a brain? :smallconfused:

a) you neither exhibit masculine nor feminine traits or...
b) you exhibit traits of both to equal degrees so that they cancel each other out.

I did a bit of fiddling with the test to get an idea of how it was scored, and those are the two possibilities that I could see.


Because you are an androgyne? :smalltongue:

Mentally so, apparently. I got exactly what Dihan got.

I scored very close to the average male score on several of the sections, very close to the female score on other sections, and did dazzlingly well on some and horrifically poorly on others (spot the difference, I'm looking at you).

It all seemed to average out to a zero, which I think is one of the problems of these tests.

To get an 'androgynous' score on many tests like these, you can get very low or high scores in various areas, as long as the male and female ones balance out. So you could be strongly masculine and feminine at the same time, or be relatively undefined in both areas, but the results don't reflect a difference between the two.

(Yes, I do realise that sounds weird and is awkwardly phrased, but I really couldn't think of a better way to convey my meaning. Help would be appreciated, if what I said is confusing.)

Is this because not many people realise that there even is a difference, or that they feel the distinction isn't worth noting, or what? :smallconfused:

[golentan]

That BBC test annoyed me by not letting me do both sets of faces, and now I'd have to redo all 4 first tests if I want to get there again. Blech.

Funny to see that I've a lower digit ratio (0.94) than the average male (0.96) though. I'll have to ask my mother what she was doing during my intra-uterine sleepover.

I have a question for the other bisexual people around: I have very recently realised that I approach sex with a different mindset depending on whether I'm with a male or a female partner. With women I very much want to be active and do things to them, to the point where I don't much care whether they want to reciprocate or not and am just as happy to finish off on my own, whereas with men I just really want to submit. It's not like I don't enjoy playing with my men, but that's firmly categorised under "foreplay, or possibly your reward for all the times I've been quite selfish". Anybody else experience something similar?

Umm, with women I like being very active but taking my time. With men I like being very passive. In both cases, I like a lot of playing around before anything happens, and I have been accused of voyeurism (I prefer seeing the other person enjoying the festivities more than I enjoy enjoying them myself).

And Yora, thank you. I do have good taste. And I'm brilliant. And handsome. And oh so humble. Someone will be really lucky to have me, at least that's what everyone says when they dump or reject me.

[albis]

I got 0% too XD

[Asta Kask]

To get an 'androgynous' score on many tests like these, you can get very low or high scores in various areas, as long as the male and female ones balance out. So you could be strongly masculine and feminine at the same time, or be relatively undefined in both areas, but the results don't reflect a difference between the two.

The test measures several dimensions, but doesn't differentiate between someone with no strong leanings in any dimension and those with 'equal and opposite' leanings in several dimensions. Is that clearer or just shorter?


Is this because not many people realise that there even is a difference, or that they feel the distinction isn't worth noting, or what? :smallconfused:

Ìt's because it's more difficult to interpret. Much easier just to say "0% brain.":smallsmile:

[Derjuin]

Blarg, I am impeded by lack of ruler :smallsigh: I have some millimeter-measured graph paper that I might be able to use, but I don't recall what the scale is, nor do I have the wrapper it came in to tell me :smallfrown:

[Yora]

And Yora, thank you. I do have good taste. And I'm brilliant. And handsome. And oh so humble. Someone will be really lucky to have me, at least that's what everyone says when they dump or reject me.
Sounds like we are made for each other. To quote some bat**** crazy chick: "We would be the most powerful couple in the world!"
Unfortunately, your avatar has me completely convinced that you're a bug. It would never work with us.

[cycoris]

The test measures several dimensions, but doesn't differentiate between someone with no strong leanings in any dimension and those with 'equal and opposite' leanings in several dimensions. Is that clearer or just shorter?


Yes, thank you, that is exactly what I meant.


Ìt's because it's more difficult to interpret. Much easier just to say "0% brain.":smallsmile:

And this saddens me. Taking the easy route out because they don't have an explanation. *pout*

[Vaynor]

Weird, I got 50% female.

Maybe this explains my fascination with romantic comedies.

[Thufir]

I have a question for the other bisexual people around: I have very recently realised that I approach sex with a different mindset depending on whether I'm with a male or a female partner. With women I very much want to be active and do things to them, to the point where I don't much care whether they want to reciprocate or not and am just as happy to finish off on my own, whereas with men I just really want to submit. It's not like I don't enjoy playing with my men, but that's firmly categorised under "foreplay, or possibly your reward for all the times I've been quite selfish". Anybody else experience something similar?

Yes. Though I have my moods. Sometimes I feel differently.

[golentan]

Sounds like we are made for each other. To quote some bat**** crazy chick: "We would be the most powerful couple in the world!"
Unfortunately, your avatar has me completely convinced that you're a bug. It would never work with us.

Well, I look human...

Also, you're not that crazy, we would be the most powerful couple. See earlier comments vis a vis "Oceans: Boiling and fusion thereof."

[Lix Lorn]

'Yeah you and me we can ride on a (Warp) Star, if you stay with me girl
(We can rule the woooorld!)
'Yeah you and me we can light up the sky, if you stay by my side!
(We can rule the woooorld!)

I'm an uke for guys. More seme-y for girls. XD

[CrimsonAngel]

The BBC test says i'm a girl.

[Lix Lorn]

Uh. Is that good?

[CrimsonAngel]

Well, seeing as how I'm a guy- no.

[blackfox]

Hm. I scored 25% on the female side... Scored male on the angles, female on spot-the-difference, right-brained on which thumb on top, male on empathy, VERY male on systemization, female on extrapolating emotions from facial expressions, ridiculously long fingers on the finger test, I prefer androgynous faces, very male on rotating objects, very female on the word test, and slightly female on the ultimatum.

Weird.

[Thufir]

So, that BBC test... is it actually possible to get intermediate results, or is it just 100, 50, 0, 50, 100?

Because I came out as 50% male, but I scored pretty highly on some of the things that are apparently more female as well (In fact, of the bits with numerical scores, I was above average on all but 2). I'd definitely say I'm more on the male side, but 50% seems a bit far over.

EDIT: Apparently it is, though still sticking to fairly precise divisions. It seems unlikely to me that everyone falls so neatly at nice round numbers.

[Lix Lorn]

So? That dun't mean anything, Crimson. XD

[Quincunx]

How's 17% suit that idea of broad intervals?

[MoriHikari]

50% female for me on that test. Sounds about right :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

...Mori? Do you remember me, Fee? Or is it just a naming coincidence?

[Graymayre]

Wow, after waiting a year to say that I guess I expected a bigger reaction, or any reaction really. :smallfrown:

I understand, you guys are busy on this BBC test. Maybe I'll come back in another year and try again.

[Lix Lorn]

I'm sorry, i only joined a month ago, but it's nice to meet you. I didn't know how to respond.

[Delta]

Wow, after waiting a year to say that I guess I expected a bigger reaction, or any reaction really. :smallfrown:


For what it's worth, I'm really glad it worked out for you this way in the end. But as I had my first post on this thread just yesterday myself, I wasn't really sure how to respond to you.

[Nano]

Why I Hate Texas (And/Or High School), Exhibit A:

Yesterday in my seventh period class, we were discussing discrimination of various types, specifically what's happened in the news recently. My teacher brought up a story about how a few days ago a couple men were assaulted for coming out of a gay bar.

Cue cheering and a chorus of "Woo hoo!'' and 'Served "em right!"

I've never been more disgusted with my peers. I expected a few *******s to speak up, but not eighty percent of the class.

[MoriHikari]

...Mori? Do you remember me, Fee? Or is it just a naming coincidence?

hm... its probably a naming coincidence...I think the only place i know you from is here...:smallredface:

[Derjuin]

Wow, after waiting a year to say that I guess I expected a bigger reaction, or any reaction really. :smallfrown:

I understand, you guys are busy on this BBC test. Maybe I'll come back in another year and try again.

I'm sorry Graymayre; I didn't see your post when trying to keep up with everything :( It's good that you've figured things out though, and from the sound of your post, it sounds like you're much better for it :) Welcome to the LGBT thread *hugs*!

[CrimsonAngel]

Wait, what letter is he?

[Maltore]

Wow, after waiting a year to say that I guess I expected a bigger reaction, or any reaction really. :smallfrown:

I understand, you guys are busy on this BBC test. Maybe I'll come back in another year and try again.

I'm sorry for the lack of response. I'm very happy that this thread helped you attain a happier life. Similarly to the above posters though, I cannot really take any credit for it, as I mostly just lurk around these boards and very rarely post.

Perhaps you should put a little link in your last post to the previous one (or repost it in a spoiler), so people know what you're referring to. In all fairness, I had read your story, but I had to go looking for it again after the post I quoted, not because your tale hadn't made an impression on me, but because it didn't trigger any "this is a person who's waiting for a reply". It reads to me like you're giving an update of what has happened in the year that you've been away for the people who knew you back then.

[Lix Lorn]

'Yeah, people are mostly crap.'
Joss Whedon speaks true.

(hugs Nano, assuming it is not too forward or something)

[Nano]

Of course not. *Hugs*

Sorry about only coming in here to complain, guys. I don't tend to have much to contribute otherwise. :smalltongue:

[arguskos]

Wow, after waiting a year to say that I guess I expected a bigger reaction, or any reaction really. :smallfrown:

I understand, you guys are busy on this BBC test. Maybe I'll come back in another year and try again.
Hey, I JUST logged in to check. Gotta gimme a moment or two, you know? :smalltongue:

Also, I'm happy to hear your conundrum is resolved, I remember our discussions of it, and I'm happy you're doing better. Don't be a stranger, Graymayre. :smallwink:

[Thufir]

Sorry about only coming in here to complain, guys. I don't tend to have much to contribute otherwise. :smalltongue:

Well, the idea behind the thread is to support our people. People for whom everything's going fine don't generally need so much in the way of support.

[Lix Lorn]

The lesson here is clear: If you're not getting enough attention, complain!
(Shot)
:belkar: Yeah, rock on, elf buddy!

[Graymayre]

I'm sorry for the lack of response. I'm very happy that this thread helped you attain a happier life. Similarly to the above posters though, I cannot really take any credit for it, as I mostly just lurk around these boards and very rarely post.

Perhaps you should put a little link in your last post to the previous one (or repost it in a spoiler), so people know what you're referring to. In all fairness, I had read your story, but I had to go looking for it again after the post I quoted, not because your tale hadn't made an impression on me, but because it didn't trigger any "this is a person who's waiting for a reply". It reads to me like you're giving an update of what has happened in the year that you've been away for the people who knew you back then.

You're right. My problem was that leaving was an issue I needed to resolve in order to feel some sort of closure on my situation. I needed to complete the cycle so to speak. When no one responded to my "you guys are the besterestest and probably saved my life" post it just made me feel so worthless. :smallfrown:

I guess I also hoped to use this as a place to help me with this facet of my life, because I really don't have anyone to talk about this anywhere else. I thought that posting here would just be the passcard needed to enter or something else silly.

If anyone's interested, here's a reposting:
I need to say something.

About a year ago I had stopped visiting the GiantITP forum. This had been done for many reasons, but the one that stood starkly against all others had been an intense inner confliction that I carried with me for most of my life.

When I reached puberty, I began to go into intense periods of depression. Feelings of inadequacy, doubt, and despair pervaded every thought. My waking moments were spent just waiting to go back to sleep. In public I wore an emotional mask to hide my depression. I was good at wearing them, no one was ever able to see the torment behind it. In this time, I was never able to grasp what catalyzed these feelings. Numerous visits to two different psychiatrists and the use of several anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications caused absolutely no change in my emotional stature or understanding of my condition.

In 2008, I started visiting this forum for the first time. The group was nice, some of my friends visited, and it was geared toward the activities I enjoyed. Even when I hit a slump this place always let me smile, something I very rarely did in my life.

Some months past my 18th birthday I began to visit this LGBT thread. Far from questioning myself at the time, I was merely curious of it. I did not even know the meaning of the letters.
As I continued to visit the thread, my mind began to wander and question my own feelings. I hated gay men that I had encountered before then. During gym class I loathed and feared changing in front of other men, or even being near them when they did. I had interests that involved women exclusively, and steered from any "male contamination" with a great fervency. But as I asked these new questions, those walls began to crumble. With startling speed my attractions shifted. The former fears and interests I had clung to became phantasmic. As my world changed I was forced to look back on the miasma of depression that followed me and question its grounding. I began to see that my life's tribulations stemmed from this single problem. This revalation shaked me to the core. In the matter of a day it rebirthed me from a pile of ashes into a new person. I felt, for possibly the first time in my life, what happiness really felt like.

I wanted to say this earlier, but I still had fears that needed to be resolved, I had told no one of myself at the time and I knew that my friends visited this site and did not want to reveal myself to them. I knew that I couldn't keep visiting without saying anything, so I decided to just not come back until my problems were resolved. Now I return, a year after my departure, having told my closest friends what I was feeling. No drama occured, full acceptance. And with nothing in the way, I have become even closer to them and myself.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, i only met you today but i'm glad for you! ^_^
Also i joined the fanclub. xD

[Maltore]

I guess I also hoped to use this as a place to help me with this facet of my life, because I really don't have anyone to talk about this anywhere else. I thought that posting here would just be the passcard needed to enter or something else silly.

Welcome to the club! This is very much the right place to be, and don't get discouraged if you don't always / immediately get replies. Just like in a real-life conversation, sometimes you have to hit the right moment to catch people's attention.

Now, let me show you the secret handshake... :smallwink:

[Lix Lorn]

I got no handshake. :smallfrown:

[Maltore]

I got no handshake. :smallfrown:

Here you go! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mhh8IP4KlU) :smallamused:
...do I hear "be careful what you wish for?

[Lix Lorn]

She reminds me of pedo-sannin.
(Shot for reference)

[blackfox]

Indeed, welcome to the club Graymayre! We've got RAINBOW COOKIES. Much better than the ones the Dark Side has. Clearly, we are superior. :smalltongue:

[RabbitHoleLost]

Gray: I had wondered where you went off to.
Huh.
Well, now I know.
Congratulations on working through what must have been a really hard personal revelation, and I'm glad you came back to share your story with us.

BBC: 10% Female. I like my men masculine, and my women feminine.
SURPRISE SURPRISE.

[Pyrian]

We've got RAINBOW COOKIES. Much better than the ones the Dark Side has.Dark Side cookies are chocolate, which would be awesome if they didn't keep poisoning them. :smallannoyed:

[Coidzor]

Am I blind or was no link to this posted?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Am I blind or was no link to this posted?

There wasn't one I saw, but search-bar-fu lead me to this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

EDIT:
And, apparently, 75% Female. :smallconfused: I guess I picked up a lesbian brain or something?
ALSO EDIT: For clarification, I'm male.

[cycoris]

Oi, Coidz...

link to the BBC test (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml)

Yes, I just like proving you blind. :smalltongue:


Dark Side cookies are chocolate, which would be awesome if they didn't keep poisoning them. :smallannoyed:

And what about those of us who generally don't like chocolate flavoured things?

No, it could never be a plot to rid the world of you nasty chocolate people. And of course the LGBT thread hasn't taken over the Dark Side, silly Pyrian.

@v: But the Dark Side is where all the cool kids go! :smallfrown:

[Pyrian]

Well, unless you're particularly set on both joining the Dark Side and getting poisoned, I wouldn't worry about it. :smallcool:

[Dogmantra]

That test was a bit rubbish... The most glaring flaw I can see is that it asked for a definitive preferred gender. That was the hardest part of the test for me :smalltongue:

As expected, I got an exactly half and half...

[Viera Champion]

I need a girlfriend, or a boyfriend. But at my age, the latter isn't the easiest thing to find. I already asked a girl out, but got rejected. She told me I was more like a brother to her. >_>

[Beelzebub1111]

I need a girlfriend, or a boyfriend. But at my age, the latter isn't the easiest thing to find. I already asked a girl out, but got rejected. She told me I was more like a brother to her. >_>

ooh, that's rough buddy. My condolences

[Jacklu]

Took the test. :smallconfused: Apparently I am male. -_-

[Coidzor]

^: Well, you certainly seem slightly more masculine than you do feminine. Mostly you seem neuter though, as that's what you try to go for. Your manner of flirting, as, say, with Nameless, is about the most masculine behavior-pattern sort of thing you do that I've witnessed online.

So apparently being educated means you're more female. Or is it just that only females want to (or is it should want to?) be educated?

More feminine and smarter than the average guy. I think I'm somewhere slightly less than 25% Masculine(since I couldn't find a ruler). It's not perfectly halfway, but close enough that I had to examine it.

[Serpentine]

Wow, after waiting a year to say that I guess I expected a bigger reaction, or any reaction really. :smallfrown:

I understand, you guys are busy on this BBC test. Maybe I'll come back in another year and try again.Well, I only just read this post, but if I had read it and not responded, it would've been because I'm not entirely sure what the big revelation was :smallconfused: It's good that you've grown as a person, but I can't quite figure out in what direction... Are you saying you're gay?
I just did that BBC test. I got the centre point between the two... Which would be 0%. Does that mean I don't have a brain? :smallconfused:Guess it's off to see the Wizard for you.

About to do the test thing.

I was told today that apparently New South Wales has just given a "no-gender" classification to the first person ever. It was something like this: ze (ze said ze prefered that) was born male, was transexual, took hormones, had a sex change, stopped taking the hormones, considers zeself neither male nor female, or as much one as the other. Will look for the actual story.

edit: Here (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sexless-in-the-city-a-gender-revolution-20100311-q1l2.html) we (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/03/11/australia-is-first-to-recognise-non-specified-gender/) go (http://www.samesame.com.au/news/local/5168/Genderless-Birth-Certificates-In-New-South-Wales.htm).
Also, we have the same birthday :smalleek:

[Ashen Lilies]

Apparently I'm dead even as well. 0% either way. Which seems okay/accurate enough, I guess. Though I'd probably not take it to the extent the person above did. I like my male body well enough.

[Asta Kask]

Personally I'm a Pod-being from the Planet Zzyrk. Why is there no PZ in the banner? :smallfurious:

(kidding. I'm straight.)

[Nameless]

Nameless did the test for teh lulz. Nameless is a man. 25% towards the male side. Hurray! *does manly things like beer drinking and rugby*

Sweet, my Finger/hand/thingy ratio thingy was 1. *applies for a hand... modelling agency?* :smallconfused:

Lawlz.

I kinda knew what some of these questions were trying to figure out. Like the systematic/empathy thing, and the spacial/language thinking stuff. Does that matter at all?

[Lioness]

I was better at the rotating shapes and word finding than the guys and the girls ^^

And I'm 30% female. Good, I guess?

[Asta Kask]

I was too lazy to complete the test. What does that indicate?

[Jacklu]

That you are a college student. =P

[Ziren]

I was better at the rotating shapes and word finding than the guys and the girls ^^

And I'm 30% female. Good, I guess?

I actually managed to get all of them right =D

50% male and apparently I prefer masculine-looking women. Then again I mostly picked the faces at random on that one because they all looked uncanny to me.

[albis]

I actually managed to get all of them right =D

50% male and apparently I prefer masculine-looking women. Then again I mostly picked the faces at random on that one because they all looked uncanny to me.

The faces thing was weird... I mean, (to me) it was evident that they had edited the pics to make them look feminine/masculine, so they all kinda looked kind of ugly to me, because the modifications were so apparent they deformed people's expression :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

Of course. Though I only found it to be the case for about a quarter of them where they really borked it to the point where I couldn't stand it compared to, say, the final fantasy movie.

Mostly though, my eyes were watering from having to look at so many faces in rapid succession that my brain started ignoring their expressions completely, what little expressiveness there was anyway. They were pretty neutral dead faces, I remember that much at least.

It's still saying something though that the less horrible burn it uncanny valley ones beat out the people I've been having to deal with IRL though.

[Thufir]

Also, it bothered me that the faces got reused with very slight changes. It meant a few times I just thought "I've seen these two before," and clicked the same option without really thinking about it.
Also also, they were all just going for maybe one or two facial characteristics, which perhaps I don't find attractive by themselves, but maybe if they'd combined a larger number of them together, I might've felt differently.

[Lioness]

Yeah, I didn't really find any of them attractive, but it told me I prefer more masculine faces. I actually think I prefer slightly more feminine faces, but hey, what do I know.

[Dogmantra]

Yeah, I didn't really find any of them attractive, but it told me I prefer more masculine faces. I actually think I prefer slightly more feminine faces, but hey, what do I know.

Hey, same here. I just started clicking random ones because I got a bit bored and couldn't even see a difference in some. I never used anything more than "only just prefer" either.

[Quincunx]

Yes, Thufir. They were testing for measurable facial characteristics. That was the point. For example, whenever they reused the broad and prominent jaw, I down-rated that face no matter what the rest of it looked like. I was pleased with the range of skin tones in the test, also. A longer test with more than one face of each base skin tone would be great. Actually, a longer test where half the base faces weren't defaulted to the aesthetic of "ew, omg no" would be great. A shallowness test. Isn't it great!

Also I am amused that in two pages of responses, only one person (Yo.) gave the percentage without saying which side it skewed towards. Now where's the fun in just taking the confirmation as it's reported instead of guessing? :smalltongue: (Dogmantra reported "half and half", but I can't tell if that was a 50% without reporting gender, or a 0% androgyne.)

Also also, 'zeself' doesn't parse properly in my head. It need a consonant to end the first syllable to parse as a reflexive. Following the examples in the article, the pronoun would be 'hirself', which looks too much like a typo. Better to make an objective pronoun from the ze- root and then build a reflexive out of that.

Also also also, yes, a hand modeling agency with long and shapely fingers, no knobbly knuckles, and absolutely no hand hair. There's a single gene to control hairiness on the middle fingerbone, you know.

[Coidzor]

Well, I forgot to put which direction my percentage skewed in initially. But I generally just wanna smash things when someone is being baldfaced about trying to force me to guess something in a game to amuse them. Something about the line "dance, puppets, dance," just seems vulgar and rude to me, but that's probably just my silly old eccentricity speaking.

So... There are people with hairless wrists, eh? Naturally hairless, I mean. :smallconfused: I thought for sure you had to wax in order for that to be the case. Although, I guess that explains why everyone vomits at the sight of my hands then. :smallannoyed:

[Dogmantra]

(Dogmantra reported "half and half", but I can't tell if that was a 50% without reporting gender, or a 0% androgyne.)

Ah yes, that'll be because I was rather tired. 0% androgyne apparently.

[Cotilla]

Well, first of all: Hello everyone :smallredface:

I'm a 18 years old gay guy I have known that I'm gay since when I was 12, when I realised that I was thinking that my tennis trainer (obviously a guy) was very hot.

Not long after that, I realised too that I was in love with my best friend (who was for some time the boyfriend of my best female friend), who happened to be the DM in my D&D group, which mean that I saw him a lot. I never told him that I had a crush on him, because he was quite intolerant... despite that, various facts confused me: he was rude (and often violent) with nearly everybody (including other friends), but never with me, he liked to show me the new games he purchased and the music he downloaded. We used to be alone in his bedroom, with me sitting on his bed while he explained me things about the games, the music groups and such. One day, we nearly kissed; sometimes the rol group stayed over at his parents house and we played poker or other card games, and the loser or losers had to take a whiskey drink, but I don't drink alcohol, so I hadn't to do it. After this guy lost the third play, he drank the whiskey, stood up and offered me the bottle; I told him again that I don't drink, and he left the bottle on the table, put behind me and whispered in my ear “If it was from my mouth would you drink it?”. I was puzzled, and I couldn't say anything. He simply sat back on his chair, and nobody ever mentioned that moment. But a couple of months ago, when he and his family returned from they anual trip to Sweden to meet the family of his mother, we had an argument, and I havent seen him since that day. A friend of mine, told me that soon after our argument he left his house and went to another city to study, which is souspicious, because the last two years he hasn't done anything, despite that everytime I asked, he said that that year he would go study to another city, which he never done until we didn't speak anymore.

The problem here is that I still love him, so now i'm kind of depressed. :smallfrown:

Sorry if the post is a little messy, but I haven't come out to anybody yet, and I had to tell someone or I would explode.

[Coidzor]

Well, sounds like he definitely had you pegged or was just a huge wistful thinker himself, so I wouldn't exactly be dead certain there weren't people who knew.

Not sure what to tell you about missing him though. You think he'd be unwilling to reconcile from a distance? Or is it pretty much irreconcilable?

Not sure what's so confusing about him, at least from the information presented here, it sounds like a plausible explanation would be that some part of his bravado is just a shell to deflect suspicion about him being in the closet.

Also, welcome, glad you could be joining us.

[Rauthiss]

Welcome!

I took the test, got a straight 0%. what a surprise. :p

[golentan]

Welcome, Cotilla.

It sounds to me like he had a thing for you too. Is there any way to get in touch with him?

Also, if you don't mind my asking, why have you never come out? Not meaning to be accusatory, sometimes it's a safety issue. But it sounds to me like you're not happy keeping your feelings pent up, and if it's just that you never felt it was the right time or something...

?

Offers support and welcomes.

[Asta Kask]

Well, first of all: Hello everyone :smallredface:

I'm a 18 years old gay guy I have known that I'm gay since when I was 12, when I realised that I was thinking that my tennis trainer (obviously a guy) was very hot.

*snip*

The problem here is that I still love him, so now i'm kind of depressed. :smallfrown:

Sorry if the post is a little messy, but I haven't come out to anybody yet, and I had to tell someone or I would explode.

Come out or stay in, you'll always find a home here.

[Lix Lorn]

Yep!
'We're all mad here.'
Hugs?

[Cotilla]

@ Coidzor: I think I still have his mobile phone, but I don't know if I want to call him... it's complicated, one day I think I want to say him that I love him, and the other I think I've had enough of his arrogant attitude.

@ golentan: The reason I've never come out it's not because of fear of the rejection of the family, the friends or things like this, heck, my auntie is lesbian, has married her girlfriend and they have a baby (The cutest baby in the world, in my opinion :smallwink:). It's more because I have never had a boyfriend, so I don't see the need to extract the topic to collation.

Thanks for the welcome... and I wouldn't mind a hug or two :smallredface:

PD: Sorry if there are some strange sentences in the post, but the English is my third language.

[Asta Kask]

Thanks for the welcome... and I wouldn't mind a hug or two :smallredface:

Ask and ye shall receive.

Forum Heap!!!

*dives in with a hug*

[Lix Lorn]

GLOMP!
(tacklehugs)

[Delta]

Thanks for the welcome... and I wouldn't mind a hug or two :smallredface:

Be careful what you wish for...

*BULL RUSH TACKLE HUG* :)

[CrimsonAngel]

Dog pile! :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

Stay away! Don't hurt my awesomely pretty face!

I've come to suspect that I'm suffering from severe lack of motivation to do anything, because I don't actually want anything to change. I'm pretty comfortable, and comfortable is always safe. Could have something to do with me failing for three years to actually call my dad to come out about my unusual gender issues. Come to think of it, it really started to be more than just being lazy around the time I got my first suspicions about being slightly different than most people. Too bad it's 2 am around here. Really have to try calling him tomorrow.

[Derjuin]

I don't know if the cause is the same, but I've been fighting with motivation issues lately too (well, since 10th grade, which was...I think...5? years ago). However, I have taken a baby step or three towards actually feeling confident about myself in public - I got the shirt I've wanted forevers, and most folks that commented on it said "That shirt's rockin'!" or "I like your shirt, miss!", both of which made me go :smallbiggrin:. Hehe.

Also, I finally finished the BBC quiz. I realize the results aren't to be taken at face value, but I got a 50% Female. Was quite happy to see that ^_^


(Edit: Woohoo, I'm an orc! Orkzorkzorkzorkz.)

[Faulty]

Ahem.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j224/FaultyClockwork/IMG_0175.jpg?t=1268533575

I look sorta akward.

[Jacklu]

Welcome Cotilla. Make yourself at home and best of luck. *hugs*

Yora: Call him! We'll be here to give hugs no matter the outcome.

Derjuin: Yay! Grats!

Fautly: What gender is Faulty again? I honestly can't remember. .-.

[Derjuin]

I think it looks nice Faulty :smallsmile:

And welcome Cotilla! :smallbiggrin: *hugs*!

[CrimsonAngel]

I always thought of Faulty as a man, based on the avatar.

[Faulty]

Faulty is male. :smalltongue: Faulty's gender is... something...

This is my first male avatar. Previously I had Eilistraee (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/b/bd/Eilistraee_symbol.jpg/200px-Eilistraee_symbol.jpg) and Kaylee (http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/Firefly-Kaylee.jpg).

[Jacklu]

Okay. Thanks. Yeah, Faulty looks rather awkward in that photo. What with being headless and all. .-. You should have a doctor take a look at that sometime. :smalleek:

[Kneenibble]

@ Faulty:
Take it off! :smalltongue:

[albis]

@Fautly: yay crossdressing! =)

I crossdress too, kinda often, people can't tell anyway XD

[Jacklu]

The reason I asked earlier about Faulty, is that... well... I was looking at the pic, and wondering what was so special about a girl wearing girl clothing. .-.

Albis: Pics? =3 ^_^ Albis is too cute.

[Lix Lorn]

Faulty looks nice. ^_^
KAYLEE <3

[Derjuin]

I feel compelled to post pictures...I just need a way to get a picture of me onto my computer so I can put it here :smallfrown: I don't think I have a digital camera :X

[Lix Lorn]

I know i don't have a camera, or anything that i could use to look nice. :smallfrown:
I'd have to just be very careful with the angle i was at.

[Beelzebub1111]

Lookin' good faulty!
I haven't crossdressed myself, but I'm impressed with how you look. I don't think that I could pull something like that off. Though I have worn women's underwear...

ANYWAYS! I do have a webcam...but it cracked when my laptop fell of the kitchen table.

[Yora]

Faulty makes me envious.

Though I certainly wouldn't wear that! :smalltongue:
But to each her own, as they say. :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

I would. (Jeluzkitteh is jeluz)

[Graymayre]

Eh, just looking at faulty reminds me of my own pitifully woman like form. I'd rather look like the thing I'm attracted to than the thing the average straight man is attracted to.

[Lix Lorn]

DX
(hugs lots)

[Yora]

I guess we all have to learn to make the best of what we got. And as Faulty was so kind to demonstrate, that's quite a lot. :smallamused:

[Lix Lorn]

We're going to be teasing/complimenting Faulty for days now, aren't we? :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

Ok, I looked this up because I'm curious, and present it for anyone who is interested - here's what I found on biology and LGBT. There appears to be at least three brain centers involved in sexual attraction and identity. These are located in an area called the hypothalamus, where a lot of basic functions (eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.) are regulated. If you think of it as a combination of a read-out of body states (blood sugar levels, water levels, etc.) and a control dial for hormonal and neural activity involving these body states, you're not disastrously wrong. Obviously it has massive connections to the rest of the brain.

There is the Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_dimorphic_nucleus), which is about twice as large in males as it is in females. One study has shown that homosexual males have a much smaller nucleus than heterosexual males - in fact, comparable to that of heterosexual women. However, other studies have not been able to replicate this. Animal models indicate that this area is important for partner preferences.

There is the Suprachiasmatic Nucleus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suprachiasmatic_nucleus). This is larger in homosexual males than in heterosexual males. Apparently there is no difference in size between heterosexual males and females, so the relevance of this is unknown. (Although males and females have differently shaped SCN)

There is the Bed Nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc). A study (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034) looking at a certain population of neurons (SOM neurons) found:
1) a sex difference in SOM neuron numbers in the human BSTc, with males having almost twice as many SOM neurons as females;
2) a number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals in the female range;
3) an opposite pattern in the BSTc of a female-to-male transsexual with a SOM neuron number in the male range.

Remember, as always, that science is preliminary and that these results have to be verified a number of times before we can trust them. And that physiology is one player in a multi-faceted weave. This may be the "explanation" for LGBT (if you need one), it may be part of such an explanation or it may be coincidences.

[Lix Lorn]

I lean towards the some or no relevance. :/

[Yora]

I did it!

I came out to my dad about my transgender issues, and everything went perfectly.

Yay, me!

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~ahanley/yay.jpg
Crossdresser kitty is cheering for me

Really couldn't have went better.

[Lix Lorn]

Congrats!
And pic is cute. XD But photoshopped.

[Derjuin]

Congrats yora! *Success hug*!

Dat kitty be so cute =3

[Lix Lorn]

i beet j00

[Asta Kask]

I did it!

I came out to my dad about my transgender issues, and everything went perfectly.

Really couldn't have went better.

Glad to hear it, and congratulations.

*hugs*

[Faulty]

I did it!

I came out to my dad about my transgender issues, and everything went perfectly.

Yay, me!

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~ahanley/yay.jpg
Crossdresser kitty is cheering for me

Really couldn't have went better.

Yay! Congratulations. :smallsmile: I'm glad it went well.


@Fautly: yay crossdressing! =)

I crossdress too, kinda often, people can't tell anyway XD

I actually plan on "women's" clothing being the largest part of my wardrobe next year, and hope to be "crossdressing" daily or almost daily. I've only worn the dress once outside of my apartment, but it was night and I had a big baggy coat on so no one really noticed. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm not sure if I can call it crossdressing because I don't identify as a man. I don't really have an opposite. D:


Faulty makes me envious.

Though I certainly wouldn't wear that! :smalltongue:
But to each her own, as they say. :smallbiggrin:

My friend Michelle picked it out. My man-fashion has just been jeans and t-shirts, mainly band t-shirts, with a hoodie now and then (I have an almost romantic connection to my Tegan and Sara hoodie :smalltongue:)... so... I have nothing akin to fashion experience. ESPECIALLY "women's" fashion.

[Lix Lorn]

I've NEVER paid attention to my appearence at all-until i started organising my hair when it got longer... I wonder, would i be fashionable as a girl? DXD

[Viera Champion]

Talk of clothing and "cross dressing". Where as I don't actually try a wear clotthes designed for the opposite gender, I do buy shirts with say sleeves that extend to the tips of my fingers, and sweatshirts that go much past my waist. I guess it might be because it makes me feel slightly more feminine. No idea.

Also, I have the unfortunate habit of dancing around everywhere I go.:smalltongue:

[Yora]

I do that on purpose. Unfortunately, this is as far as I ever got. But I plan to not let it be limited to that.

[Faulty]

I do that on purpose. Unfortunately, this is as far as I ever got. But I plan to not let it be limited to that.

Are you scared at all? I'm afraid that I won't be able to go to my first class next year.

[albis]

I actually plan on "women's" clothing being the largest part of my wardrobe next year, and hope to be "crossdressing" daily or almost daily. I've only worn the dress once outside of my apartment, but it was night and I had a big baggy coat on so no one really noticed. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm not sure if I can call it crossdressing because I don't identify as a man. I don't really have an opposite. D:


Well then yay for dressing as you really want! =)


@Yora: congratulations!!! I'm very happy your dad took it well, parents are always a great joy when they are supportive =)

[Lix Lorn]

I plan to start doing it when i start going somewhere new. University, is the plan.

[golentan]

I like dresses, but I think that's as far as I could go down that road.

What I really need is a robe and cloak with a cowl.

[Yora]

Are you scared at all? I'm afraid that I won't be able to go to my first class next year.
No, not at all. I'm 26, attend university in Germany, and keep to the quiet parts of the city. The worst that is likely to happen is an old women staring at you for 5 seconds longer.

[albis]

Lucky you... if someone who's clearly a male walks around my city while crossdressing, he would get all sorts of weird stares, not necessarily because people have prejudices, but because they just can't stay out of other people's business XD

[Faulty]

No, not at all. I'm 26, attend university in Germany, and keep to the quiet parts of the city. The worst that is likely to happen is an old women staring at you for 5 seconds longer.

Is Germany really queer friendly?

I'm actually looking for an apartment in a queer friendly part of the city. Montreal is pretty queer friendly in general but all the apartments in the Latin Quarter and Gay Village are expensive. ~_~

[Kneenibble]

When I was just a little younger and wore long golden hair, I made sure to go to classes in drag a few times each year. My favourite was the red velvet dress my grandma made for herself as a young woman.

It was fantastic. I fooled professors, who wondered why a strange girl was in their class they hadn't seen all year, I fooled classmates and lunch-hour acquantainces. And man, the men's bathroom: that confused hesitation as they double-checked the symbol on the door was always gold.

I never took any **** for it though, and I even rode the bus downtown from the suburbs each time. I always felt quite safe.

Alas, my now short hair aside, shaving my legs for the occasion has become just too daunting a task. I quite miss it though. I make a hot bird.

High heels are hard to find in men's 11.

Anyhow, I encourage anyone to face their fear in this regard. The pleasures are vast.

[Yora]

I'm going more for the androgynous look of downplaying masculine traits, which probably attracts much less attention than other forms of crossdressing. And I'm not particularly good at it, so few people would actually take any note of me.

It's a different thing if you're living in a conservative 2,000 people village or in low-income high rise complexes, or you frequent places that are filled with drunken jerks at saturday nights. But as a middle class kid who does not go club hopping, you're usually never getting into trouble for looking a bit queer around here.
And of course, if you're not in 8th grade. But 8th grade is hell for every kid who doesn't smoke and is drunk three nights a week. Probably the same everywhere else. :smallbiggrin:

It's not all happy land around here, of course. But if you keep to the "save" parts of society, I don't think many people will ever bother you. Which of course doesn't help the kids who are born in more problematic social environments.
The only form of discrimination that personally affects me, is in fact legal descrimination. German society is very progressive in many ways, and even if people might disagree with many things, they are liberal enough to leave others alone and don't harrass them. But on the downside, the legal system is very reluctant to change anything. Politicians here are extremely concerened about getting voters mad, so maintaining the status quo and not mentioning unpleasant issues is extremely common. As a result, the rights for same-sex couples are are incredibly backwards. Countries like spain or even many states of the US seem to be much more progressive when it comes to gay rights, and we consider them quite backwards in social issues. The constituation says that all people are equal before the law, but if you're a same sex couple, you're more or less nothing but aquaintances and can't get most of the previleges and rights other couples have.
I think society has allready been much further for many years, but legal change always comes extremely slow. I'm sure it will get better, but only once the current old people are dead and the current politicians are retired.

I never took any **** for it though, and I even rode the bus downtown from the suburbs each time. I always felt quite safe.
I think a lot depends on confidence. It's like that thing with the bears. "They can smell your fear." If you show confidence and don't cower, troublemakers are much less likely to pick you out.

[Faulty]

Anyhow, I encourage anyone to face their fear in this regard. The pleasures are vast.

Thanks Kneenibble. That was actually pretty supportive.

You seem to have more experience with this kind of stuff. If I'm a male who dresses in "women's" clothes, but is attracted mainly to and only interested in dating female people... like, what're my chances? It's just sort of... an akward thing.

[Graymayre]

The pleasures of cross-dressing? I just don't see the allure the activity. If anything, I want to become even more masculine. Rather than identifying with women, they feel like aliens to me.

So why do you guys do it?

[Derjuin]

To be closer to what I feel is my true self, honestly. I don't really see it as crossdressing for me, though...

[Faulty]

I don't really consider it cross-dressing either. I do it because that's how I wish to express who I am. It's just a feeling, a basic craving. When I put on that dress I felt attractive for the first time in my life.

[Yora]

It's probably different for everyone.
I don't really know about men who say they are "manly men", but just like to wear women clothes. Still good for them, but I have no idea about their motivations.
But to me it looks that quite some people here, including me, don't think of themselves as "manly men" according to the current social norm model.
Suppose people expect from you to wear some clothes that appear much to girly for your own taste. You'd probably feel very uncomfortable about that and would rather wear something that is more fitting for a man like you. And I think it's very similar for men who want to wear more feminine clothes. With regular male clothes, they feel like these are not belonging to them and are clothes for other types of people.
But that's just one possible motivation, it might be different for other people.

Or imagine someone comming to you and saying "You have to get eye-liner like all the other guys have!" You'd probably freak out! :smallbiggrin:

Something else: Do you guys here know "The Ship's Closet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lImwscLMUWM&feature=related)"?
It's a video series about Star Trek that analyzes... Well, even if you don't like it, just watch the intro. It will tell you exactly what the whole thing is about. :smallbiggrin:

[Nameless]

I just buy clothes I like, I hardly ever look at the label. I mean, half the clothes you would only see in the women section a few years ago now appear in the men’s section because some celebrity wore in once and all of a sudden it becomes socially acceptable. Heck, I see some shirts in both the men’s and woman’s section that are exactly the same but with a different label on the back. I think it's pointless restricting yourself simply because of what a little piece of white cloth sewed on to the inside says. I mean, I don't wear dresses or skirts, but that's because they make me feel awkward, not because the label says I can't. So many of my jeans, shirts or jackets say "f", while many otheres say "m". I don't anyone should walk into a shop and say to themselves. "Right, I'm only going to look at this section of the shop because that's all I can wear." Even people who identify themselves as the "opposite" gender. Wearing clothes of that "opposite" gender doesn't make you any more of a man/woman then not wearing those clothes.
I just think it's pointless.

[Faulty]

I'm just not a man. :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

I'd want to wear skirts because i *know* i'm a girl. (Shrug) Simple.

[Graymayre]

Suppose people expect from you to wear some clothes that appear much to girly for your own taste. You'd probably feel very uncomfortable about that and would rather wear something that is more fitting for a man like you.

I can understand the rest of what you are saying, but this part is hard for me to swallow.

Why do these hypothetical people expect this? If it is because that's what other men wear then wouldn't it be the the definement of manly clothes? If I was living in a world where someone like me would be expected to wear these clothes how would I know that they were girly from there rather than from my perspective here? The main reason I don't wear dresses is because of a fear of embarrassment, not of identity. But if I am expected of such attire then there goes my fear of the former. From my view the latter is also a non-problem. After all, I would hazard that I know I'm a man, otherwise the example would be rendered moot. I don't judge myself male from the clothes I wear. I judge it from what other people think of me (and to another extent, what my physical body looks like).

I do not in anyway condemn the behavior itself. I understand why some do it and support it. But with the way I categorize myself, I simply do not see how I'm capable of having such a problem, even another's shoes.

[Lix Lorn]

Ah, well for us it's not just social pressure. We don't wear what we do because we're expected to. We have another reason fighting that. Our core wants to be ACCEPTED as whatever we are-and normally, that requires we wear the clothes for it.

[Yora]

I just buy clothes I like, I hardly ever look at the label. I mean, half the clothes you would only see in the women section a few years ago now appear in the men’s section because some celebrity wore in once and all of a sudden it becomes socially acceptable. Heck, I see some shirts in both the men’s and woman’s section that are exactly the same but with a different label on the back.
Polo shirts. I don't actually like them, but some years ago, they have become a standard womens shirt. Yeah, and of course they are still be worn by spoiled rich kids. But with long hair and old jeans, there's a small chance you'd get mistaken for the later one.

[Nameless]

Polo shirts. I don't actually like them, but some years ago, they have become a standard womens shirt. Yeah, and of course they are still be worn by spoiled rich kids. But with long hair and old jeans, there's a small chance you'd get mistaken for the later one.

I like polo shirts. I find them comfortable and warm in the winter. =3

[Iruka]

I was not aware that Polo Shirts are now women's clothing. I'll buy one anyway. I just like the look of myself in a black polo too much. :smalltongue:

[Yora]

What?! How could you not have noticed?
Maybe we're keeping to different social circles, but for the last years, that was definately the standard summer shirt for young women here in Bayreuth.

[Iruka]

Fascinating, I really never noticed that. I can't remember having seen any girls in polos and there were plenty of them (polo shirts) in the men's section at the H&M in Stuttgart.

[Kneenibble]

Polo shirts on women are almost exclusively a lesbian style where I come from. They are fashionable for men, although a bit preppy.

To answer Graymayre's question from a different angle: I'm not exactly a manly man day to day, although I am quite comfortably male, so when I do drag it has little in common with the manner of transgendered people.

You might say I do it for cheap thrills. Drag is a heightened, consciously performative womanness. We're talking heels, dresses, and makeup, which most bio-women don't even wear day to day (but not wigs or glitter or that kind of theatrical drag).

While I'm not quite at the level of full-time drag queens in terms of uh, piquancy, I take great pleasure from the public subversiveness and also from the sense of hiding in plain sight.

I am an actor and the chance to play a woman in real life feels thrilling and exciting. It's a rush.

Then again my day-to-day style has changed pretty significantly in the past couple of years: with long hair I wore elaborate hairstyles and big earrings, now I have short hair and a beard and I don't think I could do drag well enough anymore now that I'm not so pretty. It has to look good.


Thanks Kneenibble. That was actually pretty supportive.

You seem to have more experience with this kind of stuff. If I'm a male who dresses in "women's" clothes, but is attracted mainly to and only interested in dating female people... like, what're my chances? It's just sort of... an akward thing.

Sorry, what do you mean? -- your chances of hooking up with a female, with you as you are? And female, speaking biologically or performatively?

I suspect your chances are not as poor as you despair, actually. You may want to watch a show called Kink for general edification and precedent-knowing.

[Jacklu]

Alright! Down to business.

Yora: YAY!!! Congratulations! ^_^ I'm so happy to hear that you went ahead and did it like you planned! *much hugs*

On the subject of clothing and cross dressing, I honestly have no intention of ever cross dressing myself. Mostly because I have a hard time grasping fashion and clothing. In the same way I can't get my head around the idea of sexual drive. Actually, if I was born with a female body, I would probably dress the same way I do now. =P

[RabbitHoleLost]

On polo shirts: They're part of most private school's dresscode, aren't they?
I know my career college requires we wear black polo shirts.
I had no idea they were even gender charged.

[CrimsonAngel]

I hate Polo shirts, I had to were them nonstop for 6 years!

Screw private School!

[Serpentine]

SKIRTS FOR MEN!
PORN FOR WOMEN!
:biggrin:

Um... 'sabout all I've got to add on the subject.

[golentan]

Hey, I like Polo shirts. Why all the hating, they're the most casual collared shirts and collars are nice...

[Faulty]

Sorry, what do you mean? -- your chances of hooking up with a female, with you as you are? And female, speaking biologically or performatively?

I suspect your chances are not as poor as you despair, actually. You may want to watch a show called Kink for general edification and precedent-knowing.

Hooking up with a female, yes, and female biologically, not performatively. I find queer genders attractive, honestly. Female in the loosest of terms, too. I mean like... breasts, vulva, general feminine body structure. I don't care about chromosomes or whatever.

I'll see if I can find Kink. My only fear is like... I'll be femmey... who will I attract? Blah.


SKIRTS FOR MEN!
PORN FOR WOMEN!
:biggrin:

Um... 'sabout all I've got to add on the subject.

Did you see my dress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8073051&postcount=641)?

[Beelzebub1111]

Hooking up with a female, yes, and female biologically, not performatively. I find queer genders attractive, honestly. Female in the loosest of terms, too. I mean like... breasts, vulva, general feminine body structure. I don't care about chromosomes or whatever.

I'll see if I can find Kink. My only fear is like... I'll be femmey... who will I attract? Blah.



Did you see my dress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8073051&postcount=641)?

So you're basically the Eddy Izzard type of transvestite. A "Male Tomboy" so to speak.

[Vaynor]

Hooking up with a female, yes, and female biologically, not performatively. I find queer genders attractive, honestly. Female in the loosest of terms, too. I mean like... breasts, vulva, general feminine body structure. I don't care about chromosomes or whatever.

I'll see if I can find Kink. My only fear is like... I'll be femmey... who will I attract? Blah.

Probably the same type of people that find male transvestites/transgenders attractive, but women?

[RabbitHoleLost]

Probably the same type of people that find male transvestites/transgenders attractive, but women?

:: raises hand::
Hi.
I am such a person.

Just so you know they exist, Faulty.

[Serpentine]

Did you see my dress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8073051&postcount=641)?I did. It's cute, though I prefer longer skirts (that would look nice over jeans, though...).

MisplacedBunnyBurrow: Since when have you been Magtok? Actually, where is Magtok? Haven't seen him for ages.

[Kneenibble]

Apropos Kink, over the course of its four or five seasons, I can think of a few examples of couples that had a male cross-dresser and a female -- if you'll excuse the stilted language. Both members in varying states of queerness.

I do believe that women who are queer, if they are not rigidly lesbian, can like that sort of thing. As dear Rabbity has demonstrated. What woman? - or what man, for that matter? wouldn't spend a night with Izzard (although he's sort of cooled it with the dresses :smallfrown:)?

Despair not, dear creature.

[RabbitHoleLost]

MisplacedBunnyBurrow: Since when have you been Magtok? Actually, where is Magtok? Haven't seen him for ages.

Take a look around ACRO. Its where he hangs around most of the time, and everyone there is Magtok at the moment.
Its an ACRO avatar theme week =P

[Faulty]

So you're basically the Eddy Izzard type of transvestite. A "Male Tomboy" so to speak.

I wouldn't say male tomboy or transvestite. I guess... "a male genderqueer that wears traditionally female clothing" would work better.


Probably the same type of people that find male transvestites/transgenders attractive, but women?

I guess. D:


:: raises hand::
Hi.
I am such a person.

Just so you know they exist, Faulty.

Thanks. I tend to over worry about this kind of thing. Blurgh.


I do believe that women who are queer, if they are not rigidly lesbian, can like that sort of thing. As dear Rabbity has demonstrated. What woman? - or what man, for that matter? wouldn't spend a night with Izzard (although he's sort of cooled it with the dresses :smallfrown:)?

I guess I need to make queer friends or something. I couldn't manage to find any queer speed dating. God I am so shy.


Despair not, dear creature.

I find "dear creature" kind of an attractive pet name.

[Nameless]

SKIRTS FOR MEN!
PORN FOR WOMEN!
:biggrin:

Um... 'sabout all I've got to add on the subject.

Thanks Serp, the lawlz this produced woke up my family. :smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

So women don't get skirts now? :smallfrown:

[Asta Kask]

Women get porn instead. It's a good deal.

[Ashen Lilies]

Careful...

[Serpentine]

No, both are to be made for the other, which doesn't normally have such things made especially for them - skirts/dresses made to suit men, porn made for women's tastes.

[Dihan]

I hate Polo shirts, I had to were them nonstop for 6 years!

Screw private School!

Try wearing them for a normal comprehensive school (albeit in the UK) for around 16 years.

I detest polo shirts.

[Anuan]

I know lots of women who enjoy regular porn.
Also have known a large amount of women who enjoy fem-dom porn.
Are we really allowed to talk porn here? O.o

[Asta Kask]

I think not. We'd better stop.

[Moonshadow]

The Internet is for POOOOOORN >.> *hums the score to Avenue Q*

[Lioness]

*Brings everything back to polo shirts*

I like them. I've worn them at school for ages, and they seem to fit me (if emphasising certain anatomical protrusions). They're good for sport, just lazing around, etc.

[Quincunx]

:haley:I. . .I can't do it! I can't pick just one. . . .

Well, excuse me, it's a little something I like to call 'roleplaying'.

(A quip which, in this case, is possibly the worst thing I could have said.)

On clothing: I'm glad to know women's polo shirts are available right now. Had one, loved it, wore it 'til it faded nearly to white. Very flattering to the girls. (pats chest) . . .ow. Have to love such a hard-wearing knit also instead of the soft but flimsy singleknits currently in vogue.

Also flattering is Faulty's take-up of the oversized-top-and-leggings silhouette. It's the cardigan, with the nice slope to the front edges making an A-line out of the oversized top, which makes it work. Your friend did very well.

[Nameless]

*Brings everything back to polo shirts*

I like them. I've worn them at school for ages, and they seem to fit me (if emphasising certain anatomical protrusions). They're good for sport, just lazing around, etc.

And Jaz. It's also good for Jaz. Yes.

:smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

Polo shirts are better than normal shirts. bah.

...someone said Avenue Q. Must... resist... obvious joke...

(This is where i need a will save higher than three....)

If you were gay, bom, bom that'd be ok, bom, bom i mean i just hey, bom, bom i'd like you aaanyway!
(Shot)
Has anyone here heard of a close... friend of mine called New Page Win? (Smirk)

[Dogmantra]

I hate Polo shirts, I had to were them nonstop for 6 years!

Screw private School!

Wait your private school had a polo shirt as part of the uniform? I have to wear shirt, tie and a blazer. Lucky.
:smalltongue:

[Graymayre]

Are we really allowed to talk porn here? O.o

How confusing, we are in a thread that is dedicated to deviant sexual attractions, but porn is a no go? That type of material is ingrained into society's categorization of arousal. Where are the lines? How far into the woods is this type of talk allowed to go if we are not allowed to discuss what makes the body tick? :smallconfused:

[Anuan]

I seem to recall there being a rule that the forum was meant to be pg-13 at all times...I would've expected there to be a censor on the term pornography or abbreviations of it. Hm. *shrug*

My point on lots of women liking porn as it is still stands.

[Faulty]

Also flattering is Faulty's take-up of the oversized-top-and-leggings silhouette. It's the cardigan, with the nice slope to the front edges making an A-line out of the oversized top, which makes it work. Your friend did very well.

Why thank you. :smallsmile:


Polo shirts are better than normal shirts. bah.

...someone said Avenue Q. Must... resist... obvious joke...

(This is where i need a will save higher than three....)

If you were gay, bom, bom that'd be ok, bom, bom i mean i just hey, bom, bom i'd like you aaanyway!
(Shot)
Has anyone here heard of a close... friend of mine called New Page Win? (Smirk)

I saw Avenue Q. :D Took my friend Michelle to dinner and then to see it, all expenses paid, as a birthday present.


Also...

There's feminist porn and H&M designed a skirt for men as part of one of their lines.

So... progress.


Also, we can't talk about sex explicitly. No sex acts or extremely sexually suggestive stuff.

[Serpentine]

I seem to recall there being a rule that the forum was meant to be pg-13 at all times...I would've expected there to be a censor on the term pornography or abbreviations of it. Hm. *shrug*

My point on lots of women liking porn as it is still stands."Pornography" isn't a swear word :smallconfused: I believe that we're just not allowed to go into any detail. So (I think) we can talk about pornography as a medium or its place in society or whatever, but not about anything actually in it.

[Nameless]

What is Avenue Q?

[Quincunx]

What is Avenue Q?

Serpentine! We need that file of shockhorror! faces, stat!


Where are the lines? How far into the woods is this type of talk allowed to go. . .

(Double entendrés are tolerated--but only just, and they can't be explicit. I had one for a reply here, but it was unsuitably explicit.)

[Nameless]

Serpentine! We need that file of shockhorror! faces, stat!

I'm scared.

[Anuan]

What is Avenue Q?

Get. Out.

:smallannoyed::smallmad:

[Faulty]

"Pornography" isn't a swear word :smallconfused: I believe that we're just not allowed to go into any detail. So (I think) we can talk about pornography as a medium or its place in society or whatever, but not about anything actually in it.

I once listed the names of parody porn movies in another thread* without repercussions, but I'd suggest you avoid that as well. If not for safety, then for decency, given that it is meant to be PG-13 around here.

*Not condoning this obviously. I think it was a bad/impolite call.

[Asta Kask]

What is Avenue Q?

Wikipedia. Your friend. :smallbiggrin: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenue_Q)

[Beelzebub1111]

Somewhat on topic:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/porn_for_women.png

[Yora]

I'm always a bit suprised that we're allowed this one thread at all, with the usually draconic forum rules.
I'd say we shouldn't stretch our luck and not go into that topic. At least not here, though it's certainly something worth adressing.

[Rauthiss]

See, now I would love to crossdress regularly - I love dresses. :smallredface: However, certain things, including my shoulders, are too large to do it effectively. Being a somewhat muscular guy who wants a small girlish frame is annoying. >_<

[Pyrian]

Somewhat on topic.That XKCD is twenty times funnier with its mouse-over line:

"Yes, there are a lot of longing looks across the bridge of Galactica first, but that's beside the point!"

[Yora]

Without the mouseover, it's often just half the joke.

[Lix Lorn]

XKCD and Avenue Q fans. I am home. (Dies)
(Shakespearianly)

[Graymayre]

See, now I would love to crossdress regularly - I love dresses. :smallredface: However, certain things, including my shoulders, are too large to do it effectively. Being a somewhat muscular guy who wants a small girlish frame is annoying. >_<

want to trade? :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Now, if trading were possible, I think there would be a huge demand! :smallbiggrin:

[Faulty]

I'm always a bit suprised that we're allowed this one thread at all, with the usually draconic forum rules.
I'd say we shouldn't stretch our luck and not go into that topic. At least not here, though it's certainly something worth adressing.

GitP is a very tolerant board. :smallbiggrin: It doesn't have any of the "gay-people-aren't-family-friendly" homo/trans/queer-phobia that a lot of most forums/places/etc. have.


That XKCD is twenty times funnier with its mouse-over line:

"Yes, there are a lot of longing looks across the bridge of Galactica first, but that's beside the point!"

"Athena and Starbuck's eyes met. Theirs was a forbidden love."

[Lix Lorn]

I have a friend who is selling me her ovaries in exchange for cake. DXD

[Faulty]

Lesbian prom photos! (http://www.autostraddle.com/lesbian-prom-37132/)

[Yora]

Interesting in the light of current events.

But it's still just teen chicks in fancy dresses. For those women, I'm a gay man. :smallamused:

[SMEE]

ummm....hi y'all....*sighs* i've got a couple issues.....and i have no idea how to deal with them....ugh.
1. i think i like a girl
2. i am a girl
3. i have no idea how she will react if i tell her 4. i'm also deaf...and the deaf community is very...erm....close minded at times. and also gossipy. so if anyone ever found out.....everyone would know, and thats not really something i want....

*mindfreeze*

soo....yeah....any thoughts?

We got mail.

Also, sorry for being absent and not as supportive as I used to be before.
Too much going on to focus too much on helping other people in the last several months. :smallfrown:

[Graymayre]

My first thought is on whether or not she knows what the shift key is for.

Then there are her periods! I mean, she must be misinterperating an elipse as any arbirtrary number of subsequent periods (while simultaneously misinterperating a comma as an elipse).

She appears to have also completely forgone sentence structuring in favor of a list based system. She has also written down several vocalizations, such as the ugh and the sigh. from her informal writing style I would say that she is young, probably high school age. However I could be wrong.

Edit: "Hi y'all"? Peculiar, and suggests that she sent it knowing that a group would see it.

[Lix Lorn]

DXD
Not helpful.
I guess... don't tell anyone? Or only tell people you can trust? :/ Scout about for knowledge about the girl you like?

[golentan]

Well, on the one hand you have the risk that she'll hurt your feelings and maybe damage your reputation in the community.

On the other, you have the opportunity for something more than friendship.

If she's already a friend, I don't think she'd damage your standing, if you talked it out with her. Rejection is, unfortunately, likely, but not a grudge reveal. And nothing ventured nothing gained. Personally, I'd go for it, but it's a decision you have to make for yourself.

Best of luck, regardless of your choice!

Edit: Also, ignore the giggling morons above me. Also, feel free to ignore the moron writing this, even though he's slightly giggly.

Seriously guys, not helpful.

Edit Edit: With apologies.

[Lix Lorn]

I may be a giggling moron, but i was trying to help. :smallfrown:

[golentan]

I may be a giggling moron, but i was trying to help. :smallfrown:

Ah, sorry, I misread your post. Apologies are in order. You are not a moron, though you are giggly.

Graymayre, one of the traditions in the LGBT threads is that anonymous people can seek advice without being outed to friends who may be on this forum. SMEE is the guardian of anonymity.