LGBTitp - Part Five

[Lix Lorn]

It's okay. Forgiven.

Smee Said >>>




Originally Posted by Anonymous person
ummm....hi y'all....*sighs* i've got a couple issues.....and i have no idea how to deal with them....ugh.
1. i think i like a girl
2. i am a girl
3. i have no idea how she will react if i tell her 4. i'm also deaf...and the deaf community is very...erm....close minded at times. and also gossipy. so if anyone ever found out.....everyone would know, and thats not really something i want....

*mindfreeze*

soo....yeah....any thoughts?
We got mail.

So New Page Win doesn't stop her getting help.

[Faulty]

Hey anonymous. Do a bit of cost/benefit analysis. Think really hard about the likely benefits and detriments of admitting your feelings to your crush. Then decide if the benefits are worth the detriments. Admitting your feelings to your crush could have many positive benefits: she might like you, she might not but none the less be OK with it, etc. Just consider that, and then consider the danger of the news getting around, and how it could affect you.

Do you have any close friends who you think would accept you? That might make it easier. To know someone will stick with you regardless of what happens. You might want to come out to them first.

[Lix Lorn]

I told my three best friends, then my mum, then my dad. It helped.

[Graymayre]

Also, ignore the giggling morons above me



Graymayre, one of the traditions in the LGBT threads is that anonymous people can seek advice without being outed to friends who may be on this forum. SMEE is the guardian of anonymity.

I am shocked sir! Shocked and appalled!
http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss250/NeoSnuggles/1241255576114.jpg

I can respect anonymity, so I'll stop with my holmesian fantasy. I was not trying to be a moron. I just wanted to understand the person so I could better help if it was needed. I apologize any for possible damage, however slight.

[golentan]

Sorry again. It just seemed like she was here for help and you decided to mock her for her grammar.

I'm probably too touchy.

[Lix Lorn]

There are worse things than leaping to people's defence too quickly.

For a... whatever complex being you said you were, you're alright. ^_^

[Beelzebub1111]

All I can really say to the anonymous person is that you just have to take time to work up the courage. I really can't give you any better advice than that.

[CrimsonAngel]

Anonymity? Is that a word?

[Graymayre]

according to dictionary.com it is.

Anonymity: the state or quality of being anonymous

[Serpentine]

Serpentine! We need that file of shockhorror! faces, stat!You mean the alternate emoticons? They're at home, and I'm at uni! :frown: I also have never heard of Avenue Q <.<
I once listed the names of parody porn movies in another thread* without repercussions, but I'd suggest you avoid that as well. If not for safety, then for decency, given that it is meant to be PG-13 around here.

*Not condoning this obviously. I think it was a bad/impolite call.I wasn't at all wanting to start a conversation about porn (the "Porn for women!" is just part of my "Skirts for men!" slogan), just commenting on the debate on whether discussion of porn is allowed. Which, by the way, is the entirety of the discussion of porn :smalltongue:
We got mail.Is it bad that I find this really interesting? I'm really curious to see how it turns out. Satisfy my voyeurship by posting updates, Anonymous?
Helpfulness... Um... About all I can think of is to maybe start with a tentative "so what do you think about girls liking girls?" A lot of the rest depends on your situation, I think...

[Maltore]

ummm....hi y'all....*sighs* i've got a couple issues.....and i have no idea how to deal with them....ugh.
1. i think i like a girl
2. i am a girl
3. i have no idea how she will react if i tell her 4. i'm also deaf...and the deaf community is very...erm....close minded at times. and also gossipy. so if anyone ever found out.....everyone would know, and thats not really something i want....

*mindfreeze*

soo....yeah....any thoughts?

While I am not deaf myself, I have had some contact with the deaf community and it is indeed a very closed world. Because of the communication difficulty, they have a very hard time making friends "on the outside", so I can very well understand why one would want to be very, very careful about not doing something that could cost them their entire group of friends with little chance of making new ones. If the idea of coming out to your friends is scary to a regularly shy teenager, it must be ten times so for one who's deaf. You have to imagine living in a world where only a handful of people speak your language with little to no chance of ever learning that of everybody else.

Dear Anonymous, if I were in your position, I'd try to go about it in a very circumspect way. If the girl you like is already a good friend of yours, start spending more time with them in ways that don't immediately scream "date". School projects, shopping, perhaps going to a museum if you have a common interest... I think it would be a safe bet to say that if this girl shows no particular interest in spending time just with you, she won't be interested in a relationship even if she does happen to like girls.

Once you've established that doing things together is something you both enjoy, try bringing up the subject of homosexuality in a non-threatening way to gauge their views on it. My first girlfriend said something along the lines of "I read an interesting discussion online yesterday about whether or not Xena and Gabrielle are closeted lesbians..." (she went into some reasons why they could be). If she shows no interest in the subject at all, my guess would be that she either isn't looking for an opportunity to tell you she likes you, or that she is a complete moron.

If all goes well, however, the next thing I'd bring up is the prevailing attitude towards gays and lesbians within the deaf community, and how you don't agree with it, but that you're afraid of voicing your opinion. Basically, number 4 on your list; even if the two of you don't end up together, being able to discuss this with a sympathetic friend will undoubtably feel good.

After establishing that a) she's not homophobic and b) she wouldn't go around exposing you to other people, it is fairly safe to either tell her that you think you like girls, or, if you'd still like to keep that to yourself, ask her casually whether she thinks she could ever fall for another girl. Chances are though that she'll just turn the tables on you with a "I don't know, what about you?" no matter how she really feels. From this point on, however, the actual things that are said become significantly less important that your non-verbal clues (which, by the way, is the reason why I'd strongly suggest having this conversation in person rather than through IM or something similar). If she shows signs of being uncomfortable, or if she's clearly making a joke out of it, I'd let things lie.

Hope this helps.

[Faulty]

I wasn't at all wanting to start a conversation about porn (the "Porn for women!" is just part of my "Skirts for men!" slogan), just commenting on the debate on whether discussion of porn is allowed. Which, by the way, is the entirety of the discussion of porn :smalltongue:

Yeah, I've heard you use that slogan before. :smallbiggrin:

[Iruka]

good stuff

I think this is the optimal approach. I wanted to say something along the same lines, but Maltore worded it much better than I ever could.

[CurlyKitGirl]

So, the CUrly one has a problem.

For the longest time (i.e. all eighteen-almost-but-not-quite-nineteen years of her life) I've been asexual, aromantic, whatever the word is, I've been expressly uninterested in any form of relationships. Personally. I'm fine with others doing it, so I'm not anti-anything. It's as if my hormones don't exist.
However, recently I've discovered I have hormones.
I've got a crush on my Best Friend, up to and including fantasising about kissing. At this point Best Friend is the only person I've had this kind of thing for (I don't really count my ogling and admiration of Freddie Mercury or Bowie) and it's freaking me out.
Not that I might be a homosexual. Not even the fact that I may or may not be bisexual - I'm exactly averse to either sex, I admire both of them equally.
Best Friend is, while not averse to homosexuality, not exactly a 'fan' of it. She's quite straight, and thinks homsexuals are slightly weird.
My dad hates homosexuals with a passion.
My mum is physically repulsed by male homosexuality (especially on the street) and is hardly supportive of female homosexuality. She only barely tolerates it because she hardly sees how the mechanics work. In her (hghly censored) words "The men have [things] they can shove up [places]".

So I'm basically an asexual/extremely late developer who is screwed up quite royally.
I think I may be bisexual - at the moment I definitely prefer women, so I may be a lesbian; my parents (and Littlest Brother) hate homosexuality; I have no idea what is happening to me, why or what to do about it - seriously, sex education and other related things at school was awful - and if something goes wrong I've lost my Best Friend of many years.
Really, as far as my parents - screw it, my entire family's 'taboos' go, I may have broken all of them apart from one. "No Blacks/Pakis/interracial" - although admittedly as far as mum goes she doesn't really care.

Apologies for the idiocy of the family and quoting that 'rule'.

[Dihan]

Well we're always here Curly. For now I suggest you keep these feelings to yourself if you're frightened about the consequences. It's a shame about the family views, though it's only natural for people to be averse to things they don't understand or don't have any experience of.

Others will probably be able to give better advice than I ever can.

[Lix Lorn]

Really sorry to hear that, Curly. DX
I guess you wait until you have no choice but to let them know-and the best friend... it's horrible. Unrequited love is a bitch.

[golentan]

That's... quite harsh.

If you're sure your friend is straight, there's nothing you can do. But it sucks being faced with an existential crisis without hope for a good outcome from what triggered it with no prospect of support from your family.

*hugs*

Good luck. Maybe consider talking it out with your friend. It sounds rough though. We're here for support if you need it.

[Jacklu]

Just echoing what has already been said. Situations like that are tough, but we'll be here to offer any help and support we can.

[Nameless]

So, the CUrly one has a problem.

For the longest time (i.e. all eighteen-almost-but-not-quite-nineteen years of her life) I've been asexual, aromantic, whatever the word is, I've been expressly uninterested in any form of relationships. Personally. I'm fine with others doing it, so I'm not anti-anything. It's as if my hormones don't exist.
However, recently I've discovered I have hormones.
I've got a crush on my Best Friend, up to and including fantasising about kissing. At this point Best Friend is the only person I've had this kind of thing for (I don't really count my ogling and admiration of Freddie Mercury or Bowie) and it's freaking me out.
Not that I might be a homosexual. Not even the fact that I may or may not be bisexual - I'm exactly averse to either sex, I admire both of them equally.
Best Friend is, while not averse to homosexuality, not exactly a 'fan' of it. She's quite straight, and thinks homsexuals are slightly weird.
My dad hates homosexuals with a passion.
My mum is physically repulsed by male homosexuality (especially on the street) and is hardly supportive of female homosexuality. She only barely tolerates it because she hardly sees how the mechanics work. In her (hghly censored) words "The men have [things] they can shove up [places]".

So I'm basically an asexual/extremely late developer who is screwed up quite royally.
I think I may be bisexual - at the moment I definitely prefer women, so I may be a lesbian; my parents (and Littlest Brother) hate homosexuality; I have no idea what is happening to me, why or what to do about it - seriously, sex education and other related things at school was awful - and if something goes wrong I've lost my Best Friend of many years.
Really, as far as my parents - screw it, my entire family's 'taboos' go, I may have broken all of them apart from one. "No Blacks/Pakis/interracial" - although admittedly as far as mum goes she doesn't really care.

Apologies for the idiocy of the family and quoting that 'rule'.

*Is un-able to say anything that hasn't all ready been said*

Hugs? :smallfrown:

[Lyesmith]

So, the CUrly one has a problem.

For the longest time (i.e. all eighteen-almost-but-not-quite-nineteen years of her life) I've been asexual, aromantic, whatever the word is, I've been expressly uninterested in any form of relationships. Personally. I'm fine with others doing it, so I'm not anti-anything. It's as if my hormones don't exist.
However, recently I've discovered I have hormones.
I've got a crush on my Best Friend, up to and including fantasising about kissing. At this point Best Friend is the only person I've had this kind of thing for (I don't really count my ogling and admiration of Freddie Mercury or Bowie) and it's freaking me out.
Not that I might be a homosexual. Not even the fact that I may or may not be bisexual - I'm exactly averse to either sex, I admire both of them equally.
Best Friend is, while not averse to homosexuality, not exactly a 'fan' of it. She's quite straight, and thinks homsexuals are slightly weird.
My dad hates homosexuals with a passion.
My mum is physically repulsed by male homosexuality (especially on the street) and is hardly supportive of female homosexuality. She only barely tolerates it because she hardly sees how the mechanics work. In her (hghly censored) words "The men have [things] they can shove up [places]".

So I'm basically an asexual/extremely late developer who is screwed up quite royally.
I think I may be bisexual - at the moment I definitely prefer women, so I may be a lesbian; my parents (and Littlest Brother) hate homosexuality; I have no idea what is happening to me, why or what to do about it - seriously, sex education and other related things at school was awful - and if something goes wrong I've lost my Best Friend of many years.
Really, as far as my parents - screw it, my entire family's 'taboos' go, I may have broken all of them apart from one. "No Blacks/Pakis/interracial" - although admittedly as far as mum goes she doesn't really care.

Apologies for the idiocy of the family and quoting that 'rule'.

CK, I too extend my condolences. That can't be easy, and you're certainly in a difficult position. My advice (which should always be taken with a pinch of salt, especially considering the opposites of our situations) would be to do your best to try and forget the crush on Best Freind. Not only will it damage the freindship - possibly irrepably, as you said - but could cause massive friction at home.

God, my advice sucks. Also, and now I'm going to sound like an idiot, is it possible you're just romanticising (I can't spell, it's been a long day) the freindship you and Best Freind have? A similar situiation arose at school lately, with my best freind's boyfriend claiming to have a crush on his old female best freind. Hilarity ensued, but has since been settled without major bloodshed.

Anyway, you've got my MSN and can PM me for my (probably pretty Crowley) advice, if you want.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Koorli-
If your parents and Bestie are not somewhere you think you can go for support, try looking elsewhere.
You're at Uni, right? Are you in dorms?
If you're away from your family, try searching out a local LGBT group. They might be able to support you physically and emotionally, and help you make a plan on approaching your bestie and family.

As for your best friend, if she's uncomfortable, it might well be best to leave it alone.
Crushing on hetero friends is always hard, and sometimes is made even harder by confessions. Its painful and always different.

Good luck.
Rabbit loves you.

[Coidzor]

I think I may be bisexual - at the moment I definitely prefer women, so I may be a lesbian; my parents (and Littlest Brother) hate homosexuality; I have no idea what is happening to me, why or what to do about it - seriously, sex education and other related things at school was awful - and if something goes wrong I've lost my Best Friend of many years.
Really, as far as my parents - screw it, my entire family's 'taboos' go, I may have broken all of them apart from one. "No Darkies" - although admittedly as far as mum goes she doesn't really care.

Apologies for the idiocy of the family and quoting that 'rule'.

Yes, you should apologize for coming from a rural part of your country. :smalltongue: How could you think to be born there and to have chosen those parents and siblings?

So, right now, there's no real impetus to do anything other than digest it and probe out your feelings on things. Less a problem, more problems. Since you're not only coming to grips with a homosexual crush, you're also coming to grips with the capability of crushing on someone else to the point of wanting anything physically. Thankfully though, as far as problems go, these are relatively minor in terms of being obstacles and I am quite confident in your ability to surmount them.

Not sure how you think you're screwed up quite royally though. At least you're capable of admitting that you are, in fact, feeling something stirring in your hormonal centers/loins. I've known ostensibly straight women who've been unable to even determine that for themselves because they were too busy lying to themselves about everything and anything that is involved in being a human being to be able to pay attention to their emotional development, let alone their sexual growth.

So, my recommendation is for you to take some time out and explore what's going on in the part of your brain that's had this sexual awakening and see how much you've sexually awoken and whether you're going to awaken anymore or if you're going to stay at the "maybe wanting to kiss" stage of development. Certainly seems more constructive than jumping to the conclusion that you're a lesbian and freaking out over that and the idea that your family will hate you and try to kill you/force you out of school so you die in poverty now because they're, well, stereotypical.

I'd also like to echo Rabbit's recommendation to look at what resources you have around you, considering you're in a more urban center and at Uni, there should be organizations around that you can get some more in-person support.

How long have you been wrestling with all this, by the by?

[Anuan]

<hugs for Curly>
Your family sounds...exactly the opposite of what I'd expect your family to be like O.o

In any case, I extend condolences and hugs. They're...about the best I can offer.

[Serpentine]

I believe Koorly has talked about her familly before. Lets just say that her parents are not the sort of people I'd like to see raising any children I know.

Sucks, CKG :smallfrown: Dunno if it helps at all, but from the things you've said before it seems like it's gotten to the point where you may as well just figure your parents are nasty pieces of work, so who cares what they think anyway? You may actually be a better person the less they like you, even...

[Quincunx]

That's. . .normal heterosexual behavior until you find a man that turns you on. Sorry.

[Asta Kask]

Really, as far as my parents - screw it, my entire family's 'taboos' go, I may have broken all of them apart from one. "No Blacks/Pakis/interracial" - although admittedly as far as mum goes she doesn't really care.

Apologies for the idiocy of the family and quoting that 'rule'.

You do realize that this is practically an invitation for us to find you a hot dark chick, don't you? :smallsmile:

Quit beating yourself with a stick for your family - you didn't choose them and they didn't choose you. If they don't accept you for what you are - their loss. Repeat that to yourself every night before you go to bed, and don't do it because it may make you feel better - do it because it's true. Ok, sister?

[Coidzor]

^: You don't take small orders, do you?


Wait, what is and how?

I'm getting two different interpretations here for that, Quincunx.

1. is proscribing a behavior pattern until such an individual is located.

2. is saying all heterosexual women fantasize about making out with their friends until they find a guy they find sexually appealing.

Though a subset of that, would be, I suppose, that the default sexual awakening of heterosexual women is confusing and stilted until it finds a guy to sling shot off of. Or at least that all heterosexual women think they're asexual until they find someone to gush over.

So I guess three different ways to look at it so far. And that's supposing you were going off of the Koorli sitch.

[Viera Champion]

Actually that's very interesting, since I have this thing for my best friend, who is a deaf boy in my class. And it's really interesting, since he is the only deaf kid in the whole school. So, strangely enough, his interpretor is like the top person that motivates me to do things. But anyway, back on subject, he might like me back I don't know. He says that he thinks I'm wierd, but he is always hanging out with me. Any advice for me on this one?

Oh, that was just my own problems I was connecting tithe anonymous person's problems.

Wait. The deaf community is very gossipy? I'm gonna have to watch him more closely...:smalltongue:

Anyway, Miss anonymous, the answer to your problem really comes down to this:
Are you ok with having people know you like girls?

[Graymayre]

Experimentation is perfectly normal, particularly with a late bloomer. I would not go off the lid and say that you now have an answer to yourself, but you are making strides in understanding emotional needs and physical wishes. The whole situation is tricky. You will have to use empiricism to get the right answer to any of those questions.

You probably won't get the answer you are looking for tommorow. You just have to keep asking and eventually you'll know the answers. In due time Watson, in due time.

[RabbitHoleLost]

That's. . .normal heterosexual behavior until you find a man that turns you on. Sorry.

I may be interpreting this incorrectly, which, unfortunately, happens often with you, Quin, but I'm reading that as "All all bisexuals/asexuals are so because they haven't found the proper man."

[Yora]

Which is of course a bit problematic with a long history of "they are not really xyz...".
But from the point of view of a bisexual, nothing else seems to make sense. Of course most people are thinking about these things, and it's probably not a good idea to pretend this question doesn't exist. But I think as long as everyone agrees that others don't have to accept their personal oppinion, one can have a civilized conversation about it.

As a bisexual myself, I can explain heterosexuality only as society enforced standard that is subconsciously accepted by most people, so they never think it could be any different for them. But that approach really has no way to explain homosexuality. It's a complete mystery to me, but I guess many homosexuals have no idea how bisexuality is supposed to make ense sense. :smallbiggrin:

[Asta Kask]

That presupposes, of course, that societal standards can change peoples' sexuality to a major degree. Given that there are homosexuals in countries where they are murdered in the most brutal and horrible ways possible, I think you have little empirical support for such a view.

[Lix Lorn]

Which would not be a good thing to say in this thread of all places. DXD

[Murdim]

I think that what Yora means, is that it's pretty much impossible to fully understand people with a different sexual orientation than ours through our own experiences and feelings. As long as you consider that everyone should "think like you", you'll be logically driven to dismiss other sexualities as inherently misguided and unnatural variations that need to be "explained", "justified", or worse, "cured". And that's why the civilized human beings (or mostly-civilized parasitic retired omnicidal alien AI, as the case may be) that we are need to accept that other people don't always think the same as us.

Well, I admit it's a very liberal interpetation, but... :smallredface:

[Lix Lorn]

Sounds good to me.

[Pyrian]

You can't really infer an inverse or a totality from a description of a tendency. I have known enough women who were attracted to both men and women until their first serious boyfriend that I do not think the trend can be entirely dismissed. However, I would certainly not take that to mean that that's true for all women.

Really, I don't think we can beat the spectrum model, despite its various flaws. In practice, we're attracted to individuals, not archetypes. The best you can do is try to sort out, among those individuals a given person is attracted to, how do they best fit into which archetypes - but then exceptions tend to be found, and preferences are subject to drift.

[Asta Kask]

So is there a spectrum for transsexualism? Or is that more of an "either-or" switch?

I know that when transsexuals tells me they don't feel at home in their body, I feel like someone who was born blind trying to understand what colors are like. It's... just fascinating that someone can think like that. I wish I understood the feeling (without actually having to be transsexual, because it sounds like a bitch - especially in certain locales...)

I hope I don't offend someone - it's really not my intention.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I think its sorta...I don't know how transsexuality works, in that regard. I know that you can be, you can not be, and that sometimes you feel like you're neither or both, which is genderqueer.
I know that you can dress like the opposite gender as a hobby, but not identify as trans/the gender you're dressing as.

[Coidzor]

I think that what Yora means, is that it's pretty much impossible to fully understand people with a different sexual orientation than ours through our own experiences and feelings. As long as you consider that everyone should "think like you", you'll be logically driven to dismiss other sexualities as inherently misguided and unnatural variations that need to be "explained", "justified", or worse, "cured". And that's why the civilized human beings (or mostly-civilized parasitic retired omnicidal alien AI, as the case may be) that we are need to accept that other people don't always think the same as us.

Well, that's a fallacy people are supposed to set aside as they mature out of solipsism, since it applies to interpersonal relationships in realms well-beyond sexuality. Ideally we'd stop making that mistake of thinking everyone thinks like us by puberty, or at least during adolescence. Sadly, this is not the case.

It is possible to understand others enough to get on well with them without any faux pas and get on with socialability. The fact that we cannot literally feel another person's mental chassis from the inside does not discount what can be learned from outside, nor does it condemn language and communication and ideas. It reinforces the need to do these things well so we can stand one another.

Yora: Not all people who enter the bicurious and questioning areas end up as bisexual or homosexual.


So is there a spectrum for transsexualism? Or is that more of an "either-or" switch?

I know that when transsexuals tells me they don't feel at home in their body, I feel like someone who was born blind trying to understand what colors are like. It's... just fascinating that someone can think like that. I wish I understood the feeling (without actually having to be transsexual, because it sounds like a bitch - especially in certain locales...)

I hope I don't offend someone - it's really not my intention.

I'd say... Probably not. By identifying as trans, well, they've already categorically rejected the sex of the body they were born into, so it goes against their definition for them to identify as the gender of the sex they don't want to be in, even as a partial thing. Language always seems a bit cumbersome around this topic.

If you were going to look at a spectrum, trans would actually be on one pole rather than a spectrum unto themselves, and I believe cis or sommat would be the other end of the pole. You'd be more looking at a body-gender disconnect/comfort sort of thing.

You could always go for a 2 axis thing though. Intensity of identifying with X gender versus which genders are being identified with, though it'd probably be better with gender in the X and intensity in the Y, and would likely require a stab at spectrumizing gender(some kind of genetic/sexborn versus mental/other). So a 0 on the gender-identified with would be either agendered or dual-gendered, depending upon the gender-intensity.

[Gem Flower]

(Just dropping to share a lovely conversation I had with my friend.

Friend: So, how do know you're bi?
Me: I think it was the part where I'm attracted to males and females.
Friend: Have you ever made out with a girl?
Me: No.
Friend: Then how do you know?
Me: ...Have you ever made out with a guy?
Friend: No.
Me: Then how do you know you're straight?
Friend: I still think this bisexual thing is just a phase.
Me: Why?
Friend: I don't know, I'm making this up.
Me: Oookayy....)

*retreats to lurking in the corner*

[AmberVael]

So is there a spectrum for transsexualism? Or is that more of an "either-or" switch?

I know that when transsexuals tells me they don't feel at home in their body, I feel like someone who was born blind trying to understand what colors are like. It's... just fascinating that someone can think like that. I wish I understood the feeling (without actually having to be transsexual, because it sounds like a bitch - especially in certain locales...)

I hope I don't offend someone - it's really not my intention.

It depends on how you define transsexuality, and honestly, that's a very, very large thing to do.

To define transsexuality you first need to define sex. Then gender.

Most people I have listened to cannot do the second. Or rather, if they can, their definition will vary wildly from the definition of someone else, thus rendering their definition inoperable in all practical senses. It has, in essence, become a nonsense word with vague associations in many different directions, becoming more of sound of confusion than a word capable of expressing a concept.

Sex is somewhat easier, though if you get into the real details of it I've no doubt there are many shades of gray to be encountered. It isn't quite as simple as it seems, but it's at least something that actually has a real concept associated with it. It's workable, at least.

Once you've defined these things, then you can get around to talking about transsexuality for yourself. But then you have to realize that no one else may define it the same way, therefore leading all your derivations on the subject focused around a concept which may not even be transsexual in their minds.

So essentially, what I'm saying is "we've got a language breakdown. If you want to answer that question, get our language working again. Or, you can just tell me what you're defining transsexuality as."

[albis]

I think its sorta...I don't know how transsexuality works, in that regard. I know that you can be, you can not be, and that sometimes you feel like you're neither or both, which is genderqueer.
I know that you can dress like the opposite gender as a hobby, but not identify as trans/the gender you're dressing as.

Totally agree with that.

I, for one, feel I don't really belong to either gender (not 100%, at least... my mind tells me A, my body is B, my feelings sometimes change from one to the other) and have a deep deep loathing for my own body, even without being a transsexual (which, all things considered, would be a very difficult situation to face, at least for me)...
I have both worn male's and female's clothing, and it really makes no big difference to me, because I find myself looking ridiculous in female's clothing and ..inadequate, for lack of a better term, in male's clothing... I mostly choose the latter because it's comfier. :smalltongue:

@Asta Kask: the sensation of inhabiting the wrong body is not a very nice feeling. :smalltongue: I wouldn't call it depressing per se, but it makes you wonder a lot about what could and should be, and personally I always end up with a headache and somewhat unsatisfied with my thoughts... though I must say I'm rather lucky, because I have friends and family who accept me as I am and respect my perception of myself...

...and after giving my own little insight I return to luuuuuuuuuurking XD

[Pyrian]

...and have a deep deep loathing for my own body...I'm sorry to hear that. I'd really kind of had the impression that you reveled in your androgyny. :smallfrown:

[Dogmantra]

So I told a guy I sort of have feelings for him and he said he was fine that I was bi but he didn't want to go there.

Fun.

It turned out a lot better than I thought it would.

[Lix Lorn]

It's a feeling that everything is not right. It's not that you think something's wrong, it's when you *know*.

[Asta Kask]

It depends on how you define transsexuality, and honestly, that's a very, very large thing to do.

I'm perfectly okay with self-identification. I don't think there's such a radness factor to transsexualism that people who are unsure would flock to the banner... :smallsmile:


It's a feeling that everything is not right. It's not that you think something's wrong, it's when you *know*.

And is that knowledge on/off. Or is it a nagging suspicion that turns into confidence that turns into certainty?

[Quincunx]

I may be interpreting this incorrectly, which, unfortunately, happens often with you, Quin, but I'm reading that as "All all bisexuals/asexuals are so because they haven't found the proper man."

I know y'all in the Shipping Thread apotheosize CurlyKitGirl, but she isn't all women; she's just one woman who looms large in your mind. I am not talking to you personally when I say that, RabbitHoleLost, I am not thinking about you--in fact I rarely think about you at all!

Point is, when you're surrounded by nothin' but scrubs so far as guys go, then yes you may be tempted to look at sensual sources other than guys, but as a substitute only. It's possible to become lesbian that way, but bitterly so. Better to not be bitter. Yes, we're humans and designed to seek tenderness where we can find it, but tenderness is NOT sexual choice. (Unfortunately, although I came late and conscious to the state of lust, I've gotten no better at identifying when it'll strike. You can try getting a bit boozed up, latching onto a hen party, and see if the raunchy talk sparks any ideas--other than that I've got nothing.)

[Lix Lorn]

I didn't even think about it until someone mentioned it and then it grew to certainty in a day.

[Dr. Bath]

So I told a guy I sort of have feelings for him and he said he was fine that I was bi but he didn't want to go there.

Fun.

It turned out a lot better than I thought it would.

That's the way it goes, dawg. Be prepared for plenty of crushes to not be interested one way or the other. Good that you're trying though. Keep at that. You can't win without playing the game, or some other reversed Wargames reference.

[albis]

I'm sorry to hear that. I'd really kind of had the impression that you reveled in your androgyny. :smallfrown:

Well I don't openly loathe myself, I've recently (like, during the past year or so) come to terms with my inability to be what I feel I am, mostly thanks to the people who have accepted me and supported me as I am (very, very lucky me!) but I've come to the point of looking very much androgynous because I was fighting a personal battle with my body to try and make it go from one appearance to the other....

...I've done all the non-invasive changes I could. At this point, I kind of think about myself as a genderqueer.
My sexual tendencies didn't help, because when I discovered myself bisexual I lost yet another possible way to categorize my 'role', so to speak... but it's been for the best in the long run, and now I've come to a state of mild self acceptance / passive loathing...

...so, you know... progress. XD

@Dogmantra: cool. well, not cool that he wasn't interested, but it was still nice that he was ok with you anyway :smallsmile:

@Lix Lorn: yeah, that's a way to put it... I slowly kind of... realized it, as opposed to deciding...

[Coidzor]

Sex is somewhat easier, though if you get into the real details of it I've no doubt there are many shades of gray to be encountered. It isn't quite as simple as it seems, but it's at least something that actually has a real concept associated with it. It's workable, at least.

:smallconfused: Somewhat? SOMEWHAT? It's worlds easier. For one thing, we already have categorized and dealt with (in terms of mental schema) most of the "shades of gray" due to the whole medical community thing we have going on.


So I told a guy I sort of have feelings for him and he said he was fine that I was bi but he didn't want to go there.

Fun.

It turned out a lot better than I thought it would.

Fun? That's better than what a straight guy would get from a straight girl at your age. And remember, just keep swimming.

[RabbitHoleLost]

II am not thinking about you--in fact I rarely think about you at all!
Completely unnecessary.


Point is, when you're surrounded by nothin' but scrubs so far as guys go, then yes you may be tempted to look at sensual sources other than guys, but as a substitute only. It's possible to become lesbian that way, but bitterly so. Better to not be bitter. Yes, we're humans and designed to seek tenderness where we can find it, but tenderness is NOT sexual choice. (Unfortunately, although I came late and conscious to the state of lust, I've gotten no better at identifying when it'll strike. You can try getting a bit boozed up, latching onto a hen party, and see if the raunchy talk sparks any ideas--other than that I've got nothing.)
This makes a lot more sense to think about, and, turned this way, I s'pose I can generally agree.
Though, if Curly's at a big Uni with a larger choice of men...
:: shrugs::

[Dogmantra]

Fun? That's better than what a straight guy would get from a straight girl at your age. And remember, just keep swimming.

Oh, you read the "Fun." as dry and sarcastic? Oh no I love fun, me!
:smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

^: Ah, sarcasm. It proactively makes my life a living hell. By being there whenever I just want things simple and then disappearing once I start suspecting it behind every rock, corner, and person approaching me. In any event, stay rawesome.


This makes a lot more sense to think about, and, turned this way, I s'pose I can agree.
Though, if Curly's at a big Uni with a larger choice of men...
:: shrugs::

*shrug* I mean, we could try to infer from how she presents herself online that maybe she just sort of defaults into viewing the men she comes into contact with as scrubs and is a hermit with little interpersonal interaction that would expose her to new and interesting people to sleep with, but, we just don't know how applicable that is to her case.

[Lix Lorn]

I have been having my online avatar switch genders regularly all the time i've been ON the internet, really. I shoulda guessed something was up when the female side was there more often.

[Coidzor]

I have been having my online avatar switch genders regularly all the time i've been ON the internet, really. I shoulda guessed something was up when the female side was there more often.

There's a male version?

[Murdim]

You can't really infer an inverse or a totality from a description of a tendency. I have known enough women who were attracted to both men and women until their first serious boyfriend that I do not think the trend can be entirely dismissed. However, I would certainly not take that to mean that that's true for all women.
And there's also countless accounts of women who've been exclusively heterosexual, until they fell in love with a woman and start identifying themselves as lesbian. What does it mean ? That women should avoid identifying themselves as straight ? That it's perfectly acceptable to ask them to "prove" it, in order to somewhat relieve our suspicion ? That people who reject the existence of heterosexual women are (... well, would be) not completely right, but not completely wrong either ?

People should stop pretend to "know better" about other people's "delusional" sexual orientations, period. Gem Flower is pretty spot-on on the issue.

Well, I guess it's the female counterpart of that good old "every bisexual-identified man is in fact a gay man who doesn't want to fully come out of his closet" piece of common ignorance. With His Glorious Virility the Penis King as the great sexual conqueror. Again. :smallannoyed:

[/rant]

@Quincunx : You know, I'm sure Curly have already had the occasion to meet some guys who aren't total "scrubs", and who would've at least somewhat attracted her if she had the capacity to be attracted to them. Plus, attributing both her asexuality and her incidental lesbian feelings to isolation from acceptable men is a pretty heavy charge.


As for the debate about transsexuality/transgenderism/genderqueer, I'm kinda embarassed about not being able to tell anything constructive on this subject, since I'm a cisgendered person who doesn't personally care about the notion of gender in either way. So I guess the best I can do is cheering. Go team Transgender ! :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

I don't mean avatar as in picture. I mean avatar as in, the being i present myself as. Male name Felix, female name was Lixxy. Thus Lix for gender-neutral nickname.

And i appreciate the cheer. ^_^

[albis]

*joins in the cheering* :D

[AmberVael]

I'm perfectly okay with self-identification. I don't think there's such a radness factor to transsexualism that people who are unsure would flock to the banner... :smallsmile:

I'm not sure how this is a response to my last post, but okay.

Suffice to say, I identify transsexuality as the desire to change one's sex. Pretty simple.

Can it be a contiuum? Depends on how you look at it. There are people who want to be the sex they are, or the sex they are not, and probably people who want to alternate. It is, at minimum, theoretically possible for someone to want to have no sex at all (and it seems highly likely to me that such a person does exist, but even if they didn't, that wouldn't change the fact that it is a possibility).

On the other hand... either you want to change your sex, or you don't. So it's quite binary in that sense, I'd say.

You could say there was a continuum of how much someone wanted to change their sex though. Maybe they only want to change for a few days. Maybe they only ever feel like being a different sex for one day, or maybe they're content with their sex all their life. Maybe they've always wanted to be a different sex and stay in that sex for the rest of their life.

So really, it just depends on what aspect you're looking at it.

[bluewind95]

It is, at minimum, theoretically possible for someone to want to have no gender at all (and it seems highly likely to me that such a person does exist, but even if they didn't, that wouldn't change the fact that it is a possibility).

It does exist. It lurks in this thread and really should be working on the Space-themed avatar.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I know y'all in the Shipping Thread apotheosize CurlyKitGirl, but she isn't all women; she's just one woman who looms large in your mind. I am not talking to you personally when I say that, RabbitHoleLost, I am not thinking about you--in fact I rarely think about you at all!
Unnecessary and hostile paragraph is unnecessary and hostile.


Point is, when you're surrounded by nothin' but scrubs so far as guys go, then yes you may be tempted to look at sensual sources other than guys, but as a substitute only. It's possible to become lesbian that way, but bitterly so. Better to not be bitter. Yes, we're humans and designed to seek tenderness where we can find it, but tenderness is NOT sexual choice. (Unfortunately, although I came late and conscious to the state of lust, I've gotten no better at identifying when it'll strike. You can try getting a bit boozed up, latching onto a hen party, and see if the raunchy talk sparks any ideas--other than that I've got nothing.)

Firstly, it's a pet peeve of mine whenever anybody - and I do mean anybody -suggests alcohol as anything other than a local disinfectant.
I'd also like to point out that people are attracted to whatever gender they like. I've gone for a very long time without any 'dateable' women in my immediate social circles and all the other women around me being folks I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than date (or, to be perfectly blunt, sleep with), but I've never found myself with an inkling of lust/desire/attraction to another man (And you wouldn't believe how many offers I've gotten).

Dismissing homosexual attraction as "Perfectly hetero behavior with no viable hetero prospects around" is, to put it bluntly, simple-minded, ludicrous and insulting.
Which is exactly what you said in both the post Rabbit quoted and this one.

At this point, I'll be fair and note - to Rabbit, especially, that Quin said such behavior was 'normal', and not indicative of 'all' but the mathematical majority. I still heartily and fervently disagree with it, but exact words are important.

[Lix Lorn]

In an ideal world, i could switch back and forth at will. Just... male would be an oddity.

[Pyrian]

And there's also countless accounts of women who've been exclusively heterosexual, until they fell in love with a woman and start identifying themselves as lesbian....And then go back straight, like as not, soon thereafter (Anne Heche, anyone?). :smallamused: More to the point, the presence of exceptions does not invalidate trends, it merely dilutes them.


That it's perfectly acceptable to ask them to "prove" it, in order to somewhat relieve our suspicion ?That should be right up there with invoking Nazis in terms of thread-ending hyperbole.


That people who reject the existence of heterosexual women are (... well, would be) not completely right, but not completely wrong either ?Nonsense. An absolutist statement can only be completely right or completely wrong.


People should stop pretend to "know better" about other people's "delusional" sexual orientations, period.As long as people are confused and/or dishonest about their interests, multiple hypotheses will be advanced. Given that virtually all of our labels are essentially oversimplifications (compare serp's spectrum chart to a three or four value label set), I do not think it is entirely unreasonable to hypothesize a more specific trend that fits the facts as given.


"every bisexual-identified man is in fact a gay man who doesn't want to fully come out of his closet" piece of common ignorance.The essential problem with that statement is confined almost entirely to the word "every". I doubt, for example, that replacing it with "no" would be any more accurate. Absolutism in sexual behavior is pretty much a lost cause altogether. That does not in turn mean you cannot speak meaningfully about trends.


RabbitHoleLost, I am not thinking about you--in fact I rarely think about you at all!Oh, Quin, m'luv, put down the shovel and quit diggin'! :smallwink:


@Quincunx : You know, I'm sure Curly have already had the occasion to meet some guys who aren't total "scrubs", and who would've at least somewhat attracted her if she had the capacity to be attracted to them.Dude, CKG posted examples of men she was attracted to.

[AmberVael]

It does exist. It lurks in this thread and really should be working on the Space-themed avatar.

I actually meant to say sex instead of gender in that quote, in case that changes what you were saying.

I'll go back and edit that.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Dude, CKG posted examples of men she was attracted to. I think you're also missing the entire "late blooming" portion of Quin's hypothesis.

I see no mention of "Late blooming" in Quin's hypothesis.

[Moonshadow]

In an ideal world, i could switch back and forth at will. Just... male would be an oddity.

I'd love to live in that world, I tells ya.

Or a world in which everyone had the Jusenkyo curse of the other gender :smallbiggrin:

[Pyrian]

I see no mention of "Late blooming" in Quin's hypothesis.Cripes, you're right. I blended what little she posted with other thoughts. Oops! Sorry.

[Lix Lorn]

Nah, then you'd need to avoid the other water if you liked what you were. You just need Alter Self as a spell-like ability.

[Forever Curious]

Wow, so much rage in the thread. Just popping in to say "hi" and peruse the discussion.

[Lyesmith]

Wow, so much rage in the thread.

You seem almost surprised by that. How come?

[Thufir]

I know y'all in the Shipping Thread apotheosize CurlyKitGirl, but she isn't all women; she's just one woman who looms large in your mind.

Not the point. You said this was 'normal for...' etc, suggesting therefore that it applies to the majority of women, not just Curly.


Point is, when you're surrounded by nothin' but scrubs so far as guys go,

I resent the implication that I am a scrub. :smallannoyed:
Not to mention Dr. Bath, who Curly has previously professed to have a crush on.
Or, for people she sees more frequently, I met a guy she lives with in Oxford, and with some of the OUGSS guys. I wouldn't describe them as scrubs.

You're assuming things about her life which are inconsistent with most things she's ever said about it on here that I've seen. Personally I think it's more likely she knows her own mind and feelings better than you do.

[Yora]

In an ideal world, i could switch back and forth at will. Just... male would be an oddity.

I think our ideal world would be most peoples nightmare. :smallbiggrin:
And you wouldn't even have to be homophob to think it's freaky.

Who got this idea with two sexs anyway? Look at snails, they got it right. Though I admit that this is the only aspect of their anatomy that sounds like a good idea for humans.

[Murdim]

*sentence-by-sentence verbal counteroffensive*
Well... I guess the rant is NOT over, then :smallsigh:

It looks like you missed my point. I don't think everyone is honest about his or her sexual orientation. I don't think labels are anything but clumsy simplifications. I don't think we shouldn't take into account those people that are "dishonest about their interests". I don't think, I've NEVER thought, and I'll NEVER pretend that no gay man have ever pretended to be bisexual ; hell, I was myself a firm believer in the stereotype during a good chunk of my teenage years. Also, the Godwin point was pretty much unnecessary, and it looks like you interpreted the "proof" waaay beyond its intended meaning.

Hell, even though I quoted your message, it wasn't meant to be a dismissal of it. It's just that some phrases in it drove me somewhat angry (again, not against you), enough to write a short rant about bisexual erasure and the fallacies that are used to justify it. I wasn't expecting you to answer to it as a personal affront, much less with an effing quote battle, the type that makes a darn good fire starter for a flame war.

What I said is that even straight-identified women aren't that "reliable" in their sexual orientation, with the implication that there's no reason to treat them differently than bisexual women on this subject. I was trying to show how ridiculous it would be to put on heterosexuality all the mistrust which is casually inflicted on bisexuality.

I was trying to show why someone's initial reaction to people who claims to be bisexual, or asexual, or envision the possibility of being bisexual (or asexual), should be to trust them, not to reject them according to the "trends" many seem to love so much. Because it is unimaginable to anyone to dismiss people who claim to be straight, just because they might be lying, or fooling themselves.

Besides, there's a lot of closeted bisexuals among both the gay community and the straight-identified population. Do you see many of us assert that straight and gay people should be assumed to be bi anyway, unless they somehow prove their lack of attraction towards the "wrong" gender ? I suppose not.



Dude, CKG posted examples of men she was attracted to.
That's quite the opposite, really. She said that even the guys she ogled on and admired didn't awaken anything sexual ("hormones") in her.

[Vaynor]

Who got this idea with two sexs anyway? Look at snails, they got it right. Though I admit that this is the only aspect of their anatomy that sounds like a good idea for humans.

Meh, I wouldn't mind having a shell. Could be useful. :smallcool:

[golentan]

I think our ideal world would be most peoples nightmare. :smallbiggrin:
And you wouldn't even have to be homophob to think it's freaky.

Who got this idea with two sexs anyway? Look at snails, they got it right. Though I admit that this is the only aspect of their anatomy that sounds like a good idea for humans.

Hey, I was happy with my default system. All males are emotionally underdeveloped little boys. We basically used them as trained monkeys in my unit. Then they mate, and depending on hormonal triggers in that event enter a proto caste stage where they develop the physical and mental traits for their job, culminating in the development of the full grown adult female breeder or feminine neuter. Sexuality was purely a peer bonding/reward thing after childhood unless you were a breeder, and they tended not to be too bright.

Also, snails chew off each other's genitals as part of their mating process. I wouldn't like that.

[bluewind95]

I actually meant to say sex instead of gender in that quote, in case that changes what you were saying.

I'll go back and edit that.

No, it doesn't change anything. :smalltongue:

That's actually how I read it, whoops. I keep mixing up the two words once in a while. :smallredface: So yeah, I meant I want to be sexless.

[Serpentine]

So is there a spectrum for transsexualism? Or is that more of an "either-or" switch? A little while ago, I posted links to a story about the first ever official no-sex classification in New South Wales. Basically, this... person, was born male, was transexual, took hormones, had sex reassignment surgery to become physically female, stopped the hormones, and was declared officially and medically neither/both/indistinguishable sex.
Now, I think this is very much an exception, and I'm not quite sure how it effects my thoughts on transexuality (still working on that :smalltongue:), but it's certainly notable as a not either/or sex. Like hermaphroditism and biological sex, perhaps - its presence doesn't invalidate the binary, but it is significant to our understanding of how sex works and so on and is important to acknowledge.

Not the point. You said this was 'normal for...' etc, suggesting therefore that it applies to the majority of women, not just Curly.In her defense, this is not necessarily true. It can be "normal" for a woman to have E+ breasts or to get crippling period pains or to chew her fingernails down to the quick; that doesn't mean that the majority of women have humongous bazoongas, a horrible uterus or that annoying habit.

So, folks. What do we call someone who is comfortable with their sex, but thinks they would be as comfortable with the other sex? :smalltongue:

[RabbitHoleLost]

Sexually apathetic? Or content.
Hm.

[Derjuin]

Dualsexual? :smalltongue: Hmmm...I'm not quite sure either D:

I've finally come out to another friend; she took it really well, actually; probably because of the conversation we had just beforehand on LGBT topics. If only I lived closer to her again :smallsigh:

[Faulty]

I've been thinking about the idea of hormones. I think I'd like a more feminine body, though I don't consider myself transsexual and don't want to be female.

Dunno if that fits the spectrum thing. I just see my body as something to be modified and changed to what I want. I guess I want it to be... androgenous? Feminine? I'm very lost.

[albis]

I've been thinking about the idea of hormones. I think I'd like a more feminine body, though I don't consider myself transsexual and don't want to be female.

Dunno if that fits the spectrum thing. I just see my body as something to be modified and changed to what I want. I guess I want it to be... androgenous? Feminine? I'm very lost.

Well, if you're considering hormones keep in mind that whatever the dosage, they'll eventually give you breasts (I know a guy who was born male, took hormones to gain a more feminine body, up until he got small but noticeable breasts) so if you don't really want to be female, keep in mind that before you decide. Just saying.
Other than that... other than focusing on what you would want to be, focus on what you can be. It helped me a lot. =)


@Serpentine: that's one piece of incredible news! :O now that's what I call 'complicated'.
Though I agree, coming to terms with my biological sex (knowing that without invasive and expensive methods it wouldn't change), and having people who accepted me both as I physically am and as I feel I am, helped me ease the feeling of being 'wrong'... so yeah, acknowledgement of oneself helps in the long run.

@Derjuin: congrats to you! even if she lives far away, that's one more person to talk freely with! =)

[Asta Kask]

So, folks. What do we call someone who is comfortable with their sex, but thinks they would be as comfortable with the other sex? :smalltongue:

Ambisexual? As in ambivalent?

[albis]

hey, that could work. XD

[Quincunx]

Y'all need to stop confusing "innocent" with "asexual". . .and a number of other agendas.

And Pyrian, I need the shovel; this gutter doesn't dig itself. :smallamused: (cuts some steps in the side, descends back to the usual level)


I've been thinking about the idea of hormones. I think I'd like a more feminine body, though I don't consider myself transsexual and don't want to be female.

Dunno if that fits the spectrum thing. I just see my body as something to be modified and changed to what I want. I guess I want it to be... androgenous? Feminine? I'm very lost.

Mutable--referring to the process and not the result.

[Yora]

I've been thinking about the idea of hormones. I think I'd like a more feminine body, though I don't consider myself transsexual and don't want to be female.

Dunno if that fits the spectrum thing. I just see my body as something to be modified and changed to what I want. I guess I want it to be... androgenous? Feminine? I'm very lost.

Same here. I also thought about hormones, but I'm reluctant to use them as a beauty product. I did some research regarding that issue some months ago, and I didn't find a single source that encouraged it.

So is there a spectrum for transsexualism? Or is that more of an "either-or" switch?
Clear yes! Gender isn't binary, there are not only two genders with nothing in between.
How common it is, nobody can really say. I think as most of us grow up assuming there is only men and women, we try to fit in either one or the other category as best as we can. And I think the great majority of all people fit well into these categories even without the outside expectation by
society. But even so, during the last years, I met and heard about a number of people whose gender would be "not defined". It's a bit of both, but not really like either one. In some aspects it combines both, in others it's something completely else. I think if you remove the restrains of traditional gender models, the possible outcomes of what kind of personalty someone develops, are probably infinite, depending on the persons natural tendencies and how his environment reacts to it.

[Serpentine]

But transexuality is discomfort with one's sex, not one's gender, except that the sex-based social expectations (aka gender) don't match up with one's prefered sex (which is a problem with the society, not the person - see my previous rants upon gender).
I don't think anyone here is saying that gender is truly a binary, but sex is another matter entirely. As transexuality is mostly sex-based, a possible spectrum or in-between is worth discussing, and not a resounding "yes" (at least not for those reasons).

I reckon.

edit: I suppose, to add to my post before, I imagine transexuality would be similar to sex: a usual binary, with exceptions. Pretty much repeating myself now, but the exceptions are notable, significant, worth discussing, important, and not at all derogatory or "freakish" or whatever, but do not invalidate or threaten the binary.
Of course, by its nature transexuality pretty much blurs the lines within sex, so I would also expect its exceptions to be more common and probably more complex than those in biological sex.

[Coidzor]

^: Always seemed to me to be a case of problems with more than one sole cause or arena. Y'know, like any other complex thing.


I've been thinking about the idea of hormones. I think I'd like a more feminine body, though I don't consider myself transsexual and don't want to be female.

Dunno if that fits the spectrum thing. I just see my body as something to be modified and changed to what I want. I guess I want it to be... androgenous? Feminine? I'm very lost.

Tzimisce. :smallwink:

[Yora]

But I'd say transsexuality is also a form in which a persons gender and sex don't match.
Maybe I'm completely wrong her, but as I see it a persons sex is set long before birth, while the gender develops during early childhood and probably even pregnancy and puberty.
If this interpretations seems offensive to transsexuals, I appologize, but as I see it, it's another form in which a persons gender did not develop in a way as social norms expects it.

[Lix Lorn]

I'd agree that it's your physical sex not being the same as your mental gender. (Specifying which is which because i forget which you used for each. DXD)
Though, some would feel that their inner self was asexual, hermaphrodit...ic (Conjugation?), or some other non-binary form.

[AmberVael]

Honestly, I think the idea of transsexuality being a miss-match of gender and sex to be a false idea born out of poor definitions and a need for a defensive stance in an argument. It is unfortunately now extraordinarily wide spread, and a general thing which many people seem to accept.

Does your mind determine if you're transsexual? Yes. But it is because you have a preference- a desire, to be another sex. That stems from your mind.

Gender is another concept entirely. It's a ton of societal conceptions stuck together, and stereotypically related with a particular sex. If transsexuality came from someone who had a gender which did not match their sex, then this would make the idea of a butch woman, feminine man, and other such concepts be transsexual when clearly a vast number of them have no desire to change their sexual characteristics.

In my opinion, transsexuality is the desire to change one's sex. Gender doesn't have to have anything to do with it (though I do know many transgender people who are also transsexual).

[Serpentine]

What she said :smalltongue:

[Murdim]

I've often wondered how the notion of gender could possibly be linked to a transsexual person's "inner sex". Thank you, Vael, for setting it straight.

Problem is, that makes things even more ridiculously intricated than they already are. In the end, I count at least four distinct binaries/continua, that are related to gender identity in the largest sense :

Biological, "outer" sex, determined by sexual chromosomes and sex characteristics. This is mostly a binary : most people are unambiguously male and female, with a few intersexed exceptions.

"Inner" sex, the biological sex people "feel" they should be. In the case where it is different from the actual biological sex, transsexualism ensues. If we don't take into account the occasional "gender-bending" fantasies as actual shades of transsexualism, this seems to be a pretty clear-cut binary as well.

Psychological gender, which describes how much a person recognizes herself in the abstract, internally-defined notions of feminity and masculinity. It is definitively a continuum rather than a binary, and those who feel a dissonance between their sex and their gender can identify themselves as genderqueer.

Social gender, which depends on the adhesions to different, external, culturally relative gender roles and stereotypes. It is obviously a continuum, and it is linked to personal expression rather than any deep-seated feeling of identity. It is perfectly possible to display a behavior that "contradicts" one's own psychological gender ; cisgendered crossdressers do exist, after all. Still, most people will try not to stray too far from the stereotypes attached to their own psychological gender and avoid particularly egregious transgressions, if not deliberately, then in a subconscious way.

[Faulty]

Well, if you're considering hormones keep in mind that whatever the dosage, they'll eventually give you breasts (I know a guy who was born male, took hormones to gain a more feminine body, up until he got small but noticeable breasts) so if you don't really want to be female, keep in mind that before you decide. Just saying.
Other than that... other than focusing on what you would want to be, focus on what you can be. It helped me a lot. =)

I know I'd get breasts. I'm kind of ambivalent to the idea of that. The main thing I see as a prevention is whether I'd find enough potential partners who would be cool with a feminine, somewhat masculine, breasted person with a penis. I'd still have a penis and an XY chromosome. :smalltongue: I'd be... an androgyn; not really female nor male.


Mutable--referring to the process and not the result.

I'm not quite sure which of my post this is addressing.


Same here. I also thought about hormones, but I'm reluctant to use them as a beauty product. I did some research regarding that issue some months ago, and I didn't find a single source that encouraged it.

I don't see a reason not to if there aren't really any negative side effects. It's changing my body to fit more what I'd prefer. I'd says it's more than a beauty product, I guess.


Tzimisce. :smallwink:

Wat.


But I'd say transsexuality is also a form in which a persons gender and sex don't match.
Maybe I'm completely wrong her, but as I see it a persons sex is set long before birth, while the gender develops during early childhood and probably even pregnancy and puberty.
If this interpretations seems offensive to transsexuals, I appologize, but as I see it, it's another form in which a persons gender did not develop in a way as social norms expects it.

I'm going to have to mostly agree with Vael here. Gender is a number of performative societal concepts. Society tells us what actions people assigned certain genders do, and people of those genders perform those actions to be gendered. Transsexual people want to switch their biological sex. Hell, a, say, MtF transsexual might identify as masculine and butch, and get a sex change to female without adopting what society claims are the actions of a woman.


I think the idea that transsexuals are "trapped" in the wrong body, or have a mental disorder, or that there is something wrong with them is just a way of pathologizing and controlling people who simply want to change their sex.

[Murdim]

I know I'd get breasts. I'm kind of ambivalent to the idea of that. The main thing I see as a prevention is whether I'd find enough potential partners who would be cool with a feminine, somewhat masculine, breasted person with a penis. I'd still have a penis and an XY chromosome. :smalltongue: I'd be... an androgyn; not really female nor male.
Two words : Shemale. Porn. If so much people are somehow able to enjoy it despite the glaring objectification of these transsexual people into "chick with dïcks" and despite the outrageous, counterproductive overfeminisation... then there's probably a place for less disturbing biologically male androgynes.

[Rauthiss]

I have to say, the idea of using hormones to get a more feminine body shape is... tempting, to say the least.

Honestly, My real problem with my body is that is isn't mutable. Sure, I can change over time through use of hormones or what have you, but when it comes down to it, I want to be able to change on a whim. Frankly, I'd give just about anything to be a changeling. :p But meh, I'm weird, what with my mutable genderness.

As a separate note, androgyny is cute. X3

[Jacklu]

A note on hormones: Please be sure to keep in mind all the possible side effects of taking hormones. Up to and including the possibility of sterility.


As a separate note, androgyny is cute. X3

Yus. Androgynous people are the only ones that kick my asexual brain and tell it "This is what you should be attracted to."

[Rauthiss]

A note on hormones: Please be sure to keep in mind all the possible side effects of taking hormones. Up to and including the possibility of sterility.
Oh noes. I wouldn't be able to get my boyfriend pregnant. :smalltongue:

Please forgive my ability to take anything seriously.

[Lix Lorn]

Crap, there's a difference between transgender and transsexual. We need less confusing terminology. DX
Change references i made to transgender to transsexual. That's how i feel about it. (Shrug)

[Faulty]

Two words : Shemale. Porn. If so much people are somehow able to enjoy it despite the glaring objectification of these transsexual people into "chick with dïcks" and despite the outrageous, counterproductive overfeminisation... then there's probably a place for less disturbing biologically male androgynes.

I guess. Maybe I need more experience in the queer community. Or something.


A note on hormones: Please be sure to keep in mind all the possible side effects of taking hormones. Up to and including the possibility of sterility.

If I'm capable of sexual pleasure, I don't care whether or not I can get someone pregnant. Hell, it could save future partners/me the cost of birth control. :smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

I want science to work out how to make transsexuals fertile in their target sex. DX

[Rauthiss]

I want science to work out how to make transsexuals fertile in their target sex. DX
Agreed. tencharacters.

[Quincunx]

Tzimisce. :smallwink:

Out of my head, good sir! Out!

(World of Darkness roleplaying system, Vampire game, Tzimisce clan with unique talent for fleshcrafting--molding organic material as though it were clay--and consequently peculiar attitudes towards all flesh. More 'Island of Doctor Moreau' than what you're after. Perhaps.)

[Ilena]

Ya more or less, id love to be a shapeshifter, but such is life, though myself i know who my inner self is, and if that inner self doesnt match my body, well my inner self is my true self no matter what anyone says or how i look, so for me, i dont care about terms just as long as i stay true to me :P

[Lix Lorn]

Island of Doctor Moreau... doesn't he take three kids from a crashed aeroplane and mix them with animals?

[SMEE]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice on my problems, especially Maltore.

@Serpentine, if you so wish, i can keep you all updated..?


Another mail.

[Asta Kask]

I want science to work out how to make transsexuals fertile in their target sex. DX

They've done it with mice - fused egg cells from two mice and made a viable embryo. That may not sound like so much, but it's huge.

Normally, the chromosomes from the mother and the chromosomes from the father have slightly different reading instructions - some genes are only read on the mother's chromosomes, and some only on the father's.

If, for some reason, an egg cell ends up with only maternal chromosomes, or only paternal chromosomes (it can happen - I won't go into details) the result is a mass of cancerous tissue, not a child. So what these scientists did was to reprogram the chromosomes from one mouse from maternal to paternal.

If it can be done in mice, you should be able to do it in humans. Doing it with sperm is trickier... but give scientists a few years and they'll probably be able to do it.

[Lix Lorn]

That is huge; but the problem of the transexual not having the right sexual cells for their target sex is still there. I want ACTUAL changing. Completely.

[Asta Kask]

That is huge; but the problem of the transexual not having the right sexual cells for their target sex is still there. I want ACTUAL changing. Completely.

Yeah, this is really more for gay and lesbian couples. But it shows how skilled we are getting at manipulating this kind of thing.

Soon we will be like GODS!!!

hrmm... sorry. :smallredface:

[Zanaril]

Yeah, this is really more for gay and lesbian couples. But it shows how skilled we are getting at manipulating this kind of thing.
Of course, they'd have to be reasonably sure it wouldn't result in genetic illnesses, either in that generation or further down the line.

[Asta Kask]

Of course, they'd have to be reasonably sure it wouldn't result in genetic illnesses, either in that generation or further down the line.

I would guess that they are breeding mice at this very moment to see that. But the point is well made.

[albis]

Ya more or less, id love to be a shapeshifter, but such is life, though myself i know who my inner self is, and if that inner self doesnt match my body, well my inner self is my true self no matter what anyone says or how i look, so for me, i dont care about terms just as long as i stay true to me :P

That's a very good philosophy. =)

[Faulty]

Yeah, this is really more for gay and lesbian couples. But it shows how skilled we are getting at manipulating this kind of thing.

Soon we will be like GODS!!!

hrmm... sorry. :smallredface:

Dude, lesbians already have super powers.

[Dogmantra]

So I heard today that a girl and a guy at my school have a bet on who can kiss the most girls.

This makes me happy.

[Coidzor]

^: So, people being vapid, shallow high schoolers makes you happy now? :smalltongue:

Lix Lorn: Well, that'd require stem cells and somehow fabbing a Y-chromosome out of nowhere if one couldn't be obtained from the father of the individual going FtM. And determining what to replace the Y within cases of MtF, maybe reverse the maternal markers on the X already present and simply copy it? And building things up to that point where it was no longer a highly experimental procedure. We can conceptualize how it'd work, but as of right now I don't think we really understand things well enough for it.

We'd have to be producing organs that didn't turn into masses of cancer for an acceptably long time-frame first. Last I had heard, the closest they were on such things was that a group believed they had figured out what they needed to do in order to turn stem cells into breast tissue in order to reconstruct breasts post-mastectomy, and eventually have breast implants that actually work by upping the amount of breast tissue.


I know I'd get breasts. I'm kind of ambivalent to the idea of that. The main thing I see as a prevention is whether I'd find enough potential partners who would be cool with a feminine, somewhat masculine, breasted person with a penis. I'd still have a penis and an XY chromosome. :smalltongue: I'd be... an androgyn; not really female nor male.

I'm not quite sure which of my post this is addressing.

Well, yes, see, this is what we call mate selection. You'd basically be doing something in order to get bitten in the ass by evolution. But, well, where there's a will, there's a way, and there's always someone out there who'd do you, just depends on whether they'd make your skin crawl or not.

As long as you've got le functional penis, the niches in the bedroom that you can occupy are pretty much the same, just with additional handholds. Socially you could be androgyn, but, well, in the sack it still devolves into the basic roles. You'd need to be intersexed in some way.


I think it was addressing the bit where you expressed the desire to make your body a perfectly mutable extension of your mind and will.


I don't see a reason not to if there aren't really any negative side effects. It's changing my body to fit more what I'd prefer. I'd says it's more than a beauty product, I guess.


Wat.

It means you seem to be espousing the idea that the body is nothing more than a plaything to be used, abused, twisted, carved, etc. to the every whim of a fallible human's sense of...artistry. Like the Tzimisce of White Wolf, as Quincunx said, fleshcrafters.

Well, see, as it stands right now, hormones have a whole slew of side effects. Hell, we kill a small number of women by giving them female sex hormones every year. Granted, I can't remember the usual method of death stemming from birth control. The point remains though, that we're not as adept at the whole hormones thing as we should be, especially not for recreational use.


I'm going to have to mostly agree with Vael here. Gender is a number of performative societal concepts. Society tells us what actions people assigned certain genders do, and people of those genders perform those actions to be gendered. Transsexual people want to switch their biological sex. Hell, a, say, MtF transsexual might identify as masculine and butch, and get a sex change to female without adopting what society claims are the actions of a woman.


I think the idea that transsexuals are "trapped" in the wrong body, or have a mental disorder, or that there is something wrong with them is just a way of pathologizing and controlling people who simply want to change their sex.

Don't forget the bit about trying to get laid that's bound up in gender as well.

Well, the fact that most of the whole expression of a feeling of being trapped is from the people who feel that surgery is the only way to preserve what little psychological stability they have sort of makes it so you're getting confused about the order of things here. It's not doctors who've been telling people with such issues that they're trapped in the wrong body and have to have surgery and hormone therapy in order to have any sense of self-worth about their bodies.

Considering how much distress it usually has involved with it, I don't think you can say that it's a completely healthy thing for the individual that has to deal with it. Hell, it almost sounds like you're trivializing the problems they face, because, oh, they just want to change their sex rather than having it be the last resort of a deep-seated discomfit from being within one's own ****ing body. All while trying to appear supportive by couching it in such terms.

[Faulty]

I think it was addressing the bit where you expressed the desire to make your body a perfectly mutable extension of your mind and will.

I don't really see there being a dualist seperation of mind and body. I guess I misrepresented myself if I came off as "rawr I will change my mortal shell to my willing rawr". I want to be feminine is all! :smalltongue:


It means you seem to be espousing the idea that the body is nothing more than a plaything to be used, abused, twisted, carved, etc. to the every whim of a fallible human's sense of...artistry. Like the Tzimisce of White Wolf, as Quincunx said, fleshcrafters.

I think you should be who you want to be. Tattoos, piercing, hair dye, plastic surgery, or in the case of transsexual people, switching sexes so that they can be themselves.


Well, see, as it stands right now, hormones have a whole slew of side effects. Hell, we kill a small number of women by giving them female sex hormones every year. Granted, I can't remember the usual method of death stemming from birth control. The point remains though, that we're not as adept at the whole hormones thing as we should be, especially not for recreational use.

It's not really recreational. :< I'd like it, honestly. I'm just afraid it'd make me... unloveable?


Well, the fact that most of the whole expression of a feeling of being trapped is from the people who feel that surgery is the only way to preserve what little psychological stability they have sort of makes it so you're getting confused about the order of things here. It's not doctors who've been telling people with such issues that they're trapped in the wrong body and have to have surgery and hormone therapy in order to have any sense of self-worth about their bodies.

Considering how much distress it usually has involved with it, I don't think you can say that it's a completely healthy thing for the individual that has to deal with it. Hell, it almost sounds like you're trivializing the problems they face, because, oh, they just want to change their sex rather than having it be the last resort of a deep-seated discomfit from being within one's own ****ing body. All while trying to appear supportive by couching it in such terms.

Sorry if I came off that way. I just think it shouldn't be seen as something as aberrant or defective or pathological. Of course it's a huge deal, what I was trying to say is that when someone says "I don't belong as this sex" it shouldn't be seen as something pathological, but something that should be assisted and accepted.

Trying to successfully state what I mean like... the idea of being trapped. I'm not saying they're not in the state they should be in to be happy and healthy, but like it's made into something aberrant when it is someone's sex identity/being. Like it shouldn't be seen as unhealthy, transsexual people should be understood as people who are a certain way and that they should be accepted and helped.

[Dogmantra]

^: So, people being vapid, shallow high schoolers makes you happy now? :smalltongue:

Well if they're breaking the gender boundaries whilst doing so I don't mind that much. I mean, it's a lot to ask for them not to be vapid and shallow.

[Ishmael]

Yay :).


This board is very interesting, demographically. I'd be interested to see a hard-and-fast survey to see who here identifies as gay, bi, trans, or whatever. Because it seems to me like there's a far higher percentage of trans/queergender folk here, in this GiantITP community, than there is in the Queer Community I'm used to, in Berkeley. It's odd.

Like, the vast majority (in my anecdotal experience) of people I've met at school either tend to be gay, lesbian, or bi--transpeople, while present, aren't nearly as vocal. I wonder whether that's just because there legitimately aren't as many here, or that they feel an unconscious marginalization.

And then, here on this board, I feel like people who identify as trans, etc., are a fairly substantial part of the LGBT segment of the population. It's...well, interesting, demographically.

[Derjuin]

That is huge; but the problem of the transexual not having the right sexual cells for their target sex is still there. I want ACTUAL changing. Completely.

This is actually what I want as well. My friend says "Well, you won't have to deal with things like periods, so feel good about that"...but that's not the point :smallfrown:

Regarding this, however, scientists -are- working on a viable solution. They've discovered that a single gene, when turned on, causes mice to change their physical sexual organs; I believe it was only tested female-to-male so far, let me see if I can find the article...

Here it is (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6780233/Battle-of-the-sexes-one-gene-keeps-us-either-male-or-female-scientists-find.html).

Edit: I've already posted it once, so some folks probably have already seen it, but others might not have.

[Coidzor]

True, highschool types are notorious for it. I imagine it was more humorous to run into than anything though, eh Dogman?


I don't really see there being a dualist seperation of mind and body. I guess I misrepresented myself if I came off as "rawr I will change my mortal shell to my willing rawr". I want to be feminine is all! :smalltongue:

Well, part of it was it amused me and the earlier quips by people about changing at will or with the external temperature. I just got carried away with it, sorry.


It's not really recreational. :< I'd like it, honestly. I'm just afraid it'd make me... unloveable?

Recreational was bad word choice on my part. Like any kind of body modification it closes some doors, but likely opens others as well. As for unlovability, well that's more on your general personality than your body. It certainly wouldn't make things any easier, but love was never easy to begin with.

Sort of comparable to a mating display, such as birds put on though, I guess.


Trying to successfully state what I mean like... the idea of being trapped. I'm not saying they're not in the state they should be in to be happy and healthy, but like it's made into something aberrant when it is someone's sex identity/being. Like it shouldn't be seen as unhealthy, transsexual people should be understood as people who are a certain way and that they should be accepted and helped.

Ok, that's the basic ethos off the idea of the thread, even. Sorry about snapping as much as I did though. That was uncalled for. Something about the wording and my mood just clicked there.

Thankfully, it seems that the number of people who have to be reminded that transsexuals are people too is dropping.

[Faulty]

True, highschool types are notorious for it. I imagine it was more humorous to run into than anything though, eh Dogman?



Well, part of it was it amused me and the earlier quips by people about changing at will or with the external temperature. I just got carried away with it, sorry.



Recreational was bad word choice on my part. Like any kind of body modification it closes some doors, but likely opens others as well. As for unlovability, well that's more on your general personality than your body. It certainly wouldn't make things any easier, but love was never easy to begin with.

Sort of comparable to a mating display, such as birds put on though, I guess.



Ok, that's the basic ethos off the idea of the thread, even. Sorry about snapping as much as I did though. That was uncalled for. Something about the wording and my mood just clicked there.

Thankfully, it seems that the number of people who have to be reminded that transsexuals are people too is dropping.

I have a lot of hostility issues due to chronic depression that screws with my mood, so I've snapped at people, so I understand where you're coming from. Don't worry about it.

I just read an essay by Riki Wilchins, and she described how when she wanted to transition her psyche was basically dissected and reading it upset me. I want people not to treat trans people like that. Like treat them as being a certain way and that's OK and they need help and compassion like every other person. I know it's the point of the thread but it made me upset and I just wanted to say it to someone because my parents would get confused and my room mates wouldn't care. It was just bottled up I guess?

And I'm expressing it akwardly. I don't see it evem as modification. Like... I'm having trouble disclosing stuff like that, but when I see women I get all envious of their breasts and the shape of their faces and so on. I want to be like that in a lot of ways, but I also am fond of my present junk, so I feel this conflict. BLURGH. I don't understand anything about myself anymore. Feeling confident that I'm a ****ed up crappy unattractive excuse for a man was easier and less depressing than being who I am. Wtf is up with that?

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah, this is really more for gay and lesbian couples. But it shows how skilled we are getting at manipulating this kind of thing.

Soon we will be like GODS!!!

hrmm... sorry.
Have i mentioned i love you? XD


Regarding this, however, scientists -are- working on a viable solution. They've discovered that a single gene, when turned on, causes mice to change their physical sexual organs; I believe it was only tested female-to-male so far, let me see if I can find the article...

If they're not working on this right now, i'm finding out where they live and shooting them in the leg with an arrow.

I don't care about my present junk. I'm not going to ignore it while it's there, but i won't hesitate for an instant when i can trade it in for my preferred model, to use a very strange metaphor.

[SMEE]

This is actually what I want as well. My friend says "Well, you won't have to deal with things like periods, so feel good about that"...but that's not the point :smallfrown:


I wish... :smallannoyed:
We will not get the bleeding, that's granted. But the PMS and the cramps I can tell you by experience that they're there.
And gods, my cramps are worse than my ex used to have. And hers were pretty bad to begin win. :smallsigh:

[Lix Lorn]

I would WANT the periods, gottverdammit. That's why that article thingy linked (Too worked up to check who. ^_^'') is so important. Cause it changes EVERYTHING.

[Faulty]

I would WANT the periods, gottverdammit. That's why that article thingy linked (Too worked up to check who. ^_^'') is so important. Cause it changes EVERYTHING.

I know people who would willingly trade their periods to you. :smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

I have a friend who offered me her ovaries. I mentioned this, yes?

I'm deadly serious. I want to be EXACTLY perfectly female.

[SMEE]

We all do, girl.

But your idea about the period will change after the first few. :smallsigh:
Damn, they're crippling and painful.

[Lix Lorn]

And every time it would tell me in slow painful moments that i had what i wanted more than anything else.

[Nano]

I felt the same way... I've since adopted a position of teasing cisgirls for having them. Makes it less painful for me.

[SMEE]

I'm no cisgirl and I have them.
Give hormones some time. Wait.
Then you'll start wondering why you're having cramps at a non-existent organ.

It's nice and fulfilling, but that doesn't make it any less painful.

[Coidzor]

^: Pain, fulfilling? :smallconfused: Better than viewing it as your own body mocking you.

Then again, pain is pain, often times it doesn't really want a greater meaning ascribed to it.
I felt the same way... I've since adopted a position of ridiculing cisgirls for having them. Makes it less painful for me.

I find ridiculing others doesn't really help with anything, since at the end of the day you're still a hollow individual who has put more effort into negativity than into learning to bluff using the hand you're dealt.

[Serpentine]

I've often wondered how the notion of gender could possibly be linked to a transsexual person's "inner sex". Thank you, Vael, for setting it straight.

Problem is, that makes things even more ridiculously intricated than they already are. In the end, I count at least four distinct binaries/continua, that are related to gender identity in the largest sense :

Biological, "outer" sex, determined by sexual chromosomes and sex characteristics. This is mostly a binary : most people are unambiguously male and female, with a few intersexed exceptions.

"Inner" sex, the biological sex people "feel" they should be. In the case where it is different from the actual biological sex, transsexualism ensues. If we don't take into account the occasional "gender-bending" fantasies as actual shades of transsexualism, this seems to be a pretty clear-cut binary as well.

Psychological gender, which describes how much a person recognizes herself in the abstract, internally-defined notions of feminity and masculinity. It is definitively a continuum rather than a binary, and those who feel a dissonance between their sex and their gender can identify themselves as genderqueer.

Social gender, which depends on the adhesions to different, external, culturally relative gender roles and stereotypes. It is obviously a continuum, and it is linked to personal expression rather than any deep-seated feeling of identity. It is perfectly possible to display a behavior that "contradicts" one's own psychological gender ; cisgendered crossdressers do exist, after all. Still, most people will try not to stray too far from the stereotypes attached to their own psychological gender and avoid particularly egregious transgressions, if not deliberately, then in a subconscious way.A nice analysis. I'll sorta throw in another from before, though:
"Tertiary" biological gender: The biologically-based trends and tendencies associated with biological sex. Women tend to be better communicators and men tend to be physically more robust. The trends do not necessarily hold true to every individual, and are well and truly a continuum, but they do exist and it is useful to study them for various reasons.
I think the idea that transsexuals are "trapped" in the wrong body, or have a mental disorder, or that there is something wrong with them is just a way of pathologizing and controlling people who simply want to change their sex.I've already participated in a big argument over this, so I'll just summarise with: If you believe that your entire body is wrong for your brain (or your brain wrong for your body) that is one hell of a birth defect. Either it's a "choice" or it's a "medical condition" (unless someone has another category...). It's certainly not treated as well as it should be as a medical condition (so work on fixing that!) but I'd expect that it would be treated even worse as a choice. I really think your problems with the way it is treated are really with the medical practice (and it's not just in the area of transexuality that insensitivity and mental disection and the like are a problem), not with the classification itself (though I'm not sure what its classification is. Whether it is a "mental" or "physical" disorder is, I think, very hard to determine and largely not at the moment - but either way doesn't make it less serious, the treatment less necessary, nor caustic treatment less harmful!).
Another mail.Yay! :smallbiggrin: I think it's just that it's a situation that's so alien to me in so many different ways, I'm curious to see how it pans out.
If it can be done in mice, you should be able to do it in humans. Doing it with sperm is trickier... but give scientists a few years and they'll probably be able to do it.They'd still need a female gamete, or else a helluvalotta bioengineering. See, it's not just genes that an embryo gets from the egg: it's also nutrients, sheer mass, mitochondria and various other organelles. You might be able to remove the male from reproduction, but I don't think you'll ever be able to remove the female (sorry guys :smalltongue:). Though one possibility might be to replace the genetic part with that from a sperm...

[Jacklu]

:smallfrown: I know it sounds odd to those who don't experience it, but yeah, I want periods. I would also like breasts and feminine hips and all the proper pluming, but the secondary sexual characteristics are just that, secondary. I want to be able to have babies. But that technology doesn't exist right now, so I remain in a male body. But one day... One day there will be Gender Bender Guns, and when there are... >=3 Oh, the havoc I shall sow.

[Pinnacle]

^: Pain, fulfilling? :smallconfused:

She said it's fulfilling and it's painful, not that it's fulfilling because it's painful.


Then again, pain is pain, often times it doesn't really want a greater meaning ascribed to it.
While there are (obviously, considering the current topic) exceptions, pain is, as a rule, your body's way of telling you "Ah! Problem! Fix it! Fixitfixitfixit!"

[Nano]

I find ridiculing others doesn't really help with anything, since at the end of the day you're still a hollow individual who has put more effort into negativity than into learning to bluff using the hand you're dealt.

I do hope you realize I'm not entirely serious. By ridiculing I mean I occasionally toss out a 'neener neener' at yon bleeders. Pretty big leap you made there. If you think I can earnestly ridicule those who have most everything I've wanted, you're pretty sadly mistaken.

[blackfox]

I do hope you realize I'm not entirely serious. By ridiculing I mean I occasionally toss out a 'neener neener' at yon bleeders. Pretty big leap you made there. If you think I can earnestly ridicule those who have most everything I've wanted, you're pretty sadly mistaken.Dammit Nano I am not a cisgirl. Jeez. Get the facts straight. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

She said it's fulfilling and it's painful, not that it's fulfilling because it's painful.

Ahh, totally read that the wrong way. haha. x.x

[Derjuin]

Just wondering, what do you mean by transference there?

And, I have to ask, please don't pelt me with rotting tomatoes and cucumbers and corn off the cob, but...what is cisgender? When I looked it up, and tried to read about it, it seemed really confusing D:

[Nano]

Then you were definitely going a step further in using the word ridicule to describe it. Made you sound like one of those strange people who yells at babies and their mothers, like it's somehow the babies' fault that the world is how it is.



By the by, sticking to your holier-than-thou attitude there is hurting more than helping. I've changed it to tease; hopefully that will satiate you.

Derjuin, I understand it as being of 'normal' sexuality and gender identity, though I might be wrong.

[blackfox]

Then you were definitely going a step further in using the word ridicule to describe it. Made you sound like one of those strange people who yells at babies and their mothers, like it's somehow the babies' fault that the world is how it is.The definition of ridicule is, literally, to laugh at. If you look at, for example, the OED, it will tell you that 'to ridicule' means 'to laugh at.' Used in that manner, to ridicule XX's menstrual cycles is more deserving of an eyeroll at the ridiculer than deliberately being a butt to them.

IN OTHER NEWS cisgender basically means that the body, mind, and chromosomes agree on what sex/gender you are. It means that if you have XX chromosomes, you have a female body, and you're happy being whatever conception of female or girl or XX that you have. Analagous for males, XY, boy, whatever.

[Serpentine]

Someone who is comfortable with their natural sex; non-transexuals.

Coid: What's with the snappishness? :smallconfused: Eaten a barracuda or something?

[Beelzebub1111]

Just for a change of subject, and to vent:
I freaking hate dudes that are obsessed with lesbians. Putting two female characters in a story together, or drooling over women being affectionate to each-other, and simply going gaga over the idea of two women together. I can't really explain why, but it just makes me livid.

[Xzeno]

IN OTHER NEWS cisgender basically means that the body, mind, and chromosomes agree on what sex/gender you are. It means that if you have XX chromosomes, you have a female body, and you're happy being whatever conception of female or girl or XX that you have.

What about the not-super-uncommon condition that results in a female body, a female mind and XY chromosomes? Specifically, are chromosomes really important here? Because that seems to me to be in conflict with Serpentine's definition.

So, uh, hello everybody. I'm new here.

[Faulty]

I've already participated in a big argument over this, so I'll just summarise with: If you believe that your entire body is wrong for your brain (or your brain wrong for your body) that is one hell of a birth defect. Either it's a "choice" or it's a "medical condition" (unless someone has another category...). It's certainly not treated as well as it should be as a medical condition (so work on fixing that!) but I'd expect that it would be treated even worse as a choice. I really think your problems with the way it is treated are really with the medical practice (and it's not just in the area of transexuality that insensitivity and mental disection and the like are a problem), not with the classification itself (though I'm not sure what its classification is. Whether it is a "mental" or "physical" disorder is, I think, very hard to determine and largely not at the moment - but either way doesn't make it less serious, the treatment less necessary, nor caustic treatment less harmful!).

Yeah. That. I'm just. My thoughts have been... inchoate lately. I just.

Yeah.

[Rauthiss]

Just for a change of subject, and to vent:
I freaking hate dudes that are obsessed with lesbians. Putting two female characters in a story together, or drooling over women being affectionate to each-other, and simply going gaga over the idea of two women together. I can't really explain why, but it just makes me livid.
Agreed. Tencharacters.

[Faulty]

Just for a change of subject, and to vent:
I freaking hate dudes that are obsessed with lesbians. Putting two female characters in a story together, or drooling over women being affectionate to each-other, and simply going gaga over the idea of two women together. I can't really explain why, but it just makes me livid.

I loooooove it when there's lesbians in movies/games/books/etc. Just because I like seeing queer people getting more healthy* exposure in the mainstream. :smallsmile:

*Not talking like, porny depictions.



ANYWAY...

I've been wanting to write a general rant about how I've been feeling. I've been scrambled so I've had trouble. Just, communicating about anything has been difficult (I made a mess with the whole trans thing). So I'm going to try and break it into different posts, maybe. Something I can get out:

I feel like I don't deserve the title queer or transgender or genderqueer or anything. I spent most of my life thinking I was a heterosexual cisgendered man and I feel like I have no experience of what it's like to be queer or feel queer and I just feel like **** even identifying with what I feel like I am.

Bah.

[Jacklu]

You do know transference is unhealthy, right?

Only to the people I transfer new boobies to. =3


And in less maniacal news: Cisgender is to transgender as straight is to homosexual.

[Derjuin]

Ah, thank you for the explanations, they made much more sense than what I'd read ^_^

Regarding hormone taking...I want to take them. I know some of the consequences, but that's why I would talk it over with a doctor first, so I know all of them and can somewhat expect what will be happening to me. There's some risks, but to me it's to attain a more comfortable self...I don't know if this makes any sense, it takes a great deal of effort for me to put my feelings into words on this topic...:smallredface:


Only to the people I transfer new boobies to. =3
That's not ALL unhealthy...! Point that ray gun over here pleasies :smallbiggrin:

[Vaynor]

Just for a change of subject, and to vent:
I freaking hate dudes that are obsessed with lesbians. Putting two female characters in a story together, or drooling over women being affectionate to each-other, and simply going gaga over the idea of two women together. I can't really explain why, but it just makes me livid.

1+1=2. Can't blame em.


Note: I also disapprove of this phenomenon, but I understand it.

[Xzeno]

Just for a change of subject, and to vent:
I freaking hate dudes that are obsessed with lesbians. Putting two female characters in a story together, or drooling over women being affectionate to each-other, and simply going gaga over the idea of two women together. I can't really explain why, but it just makes me livid.

Hypothetically (possibly): I like lesbians. I don't know why. I just do. And no, it's not the normal "Girl on girl is hot" thing. I am equally interested in romantic side of female homosexual intimacy. In fact, I am far more interested in the romantic side of lesbian relationships. I don't know why. That's, um, hypothetical. Sure. Point is we both (hypothetically) have a prejudices that are hard to explain.

[Jacklu]

Faulty: I've felt the same myself before. Like... I'm somehow faking it, or just doing it for attention or don't deserve to call myself what I do because I don't somehow fit the mold of "transgender" and took to long to even figure out that I was. But when I do, I take a moment and ask myself how I would feel if I woke up tomorrow with a female body and the answer I get is always "I would feel right." I guess... As long as you know how you feel there is no reason to feel like you don't deserve to feel that way.

[Faulty]

Faulty: I've felt the same myself before. Like... I'm somehow faking it, or just doing it for attention or don't deserve to call myself what I do because I don't somehow fit the mold of "transgender" and took to long to even figure out that I was. But when I do, I take a moment and ask myself how I would feel if I woke up tomorrow with a female body and the answer I get is always "I would feel right." I guess... As long as you know how you feel there is no reason to feel like you don't deserve to feel that way.

Thanks a lot Jacklu. Really. <3

[Graymayre]

Dissaproval of men liking lesbians? :smallconfused:

To each his own. I don't see the reason behind hating it. It just seems hypocritical to do so. I don't dissaprove of people liking red-heads or enjoying fetishes. Unless they affect me why would I?

[blackfox]

What about the not-super-uncommon condition that results in a female body, a female mind and XY chromosomes? Specifically, are chromosomes really important here? Because that seems to me to be in conflict with Serpentine's definition.

So, uh, hello everybody. I'm new here.Hi New Here. As you can tell, this thread consists entirely of happiness and rainbows. I'd say a female body, a female mind, and XY chromosomes would usually cause sterility issues or some sort of intersex characteristics and there would likely be distress about that. But it's not as serious as, say, XX chromosomes, a male body, and a female mind, which I understand is fairly common as well.

[Faulty]

I was under the impression that sex was a mix of chromosomal, gonadal, genital and... something else.

[Beelzebub1111]

Dissaproval of men liking lesbians? :smallconfused:

To each his own. I don't see the reason behind hating it. It just seems hypocritical to do so. I don't dissaprove of people liking red-heads or enjoying fetishes. Unless they affect me why would I?

Well, it just seems...demeaning to the women, reducing their love and/or affection to a fetish. See where I'm coming from?

[Phae Nymna]

Well, it just seems...demeaning to the women, reducing their love and/or affection to a fetish. See where I'm coming from?I do! That has ALWAYS bothered me, especially since I have mostly straight friends who are all "unghhh... lesbos" and I'm on the other side of the room glaring at them until they apologize. :smallannoyed:

In other news, DAY OF SILENCE is coming up and my school is participating.
How fun!

[Jacklu]

*Hugs Faulty* Anytime.

Jacklu intents to observe Day of Silence this year.

[Kneenibble]

Well, it just seems...demeaning to the women, reducing their love and/or affection to a fetish. See where I'm coming from?
And the very large hoardes of women that fetishize gay relationships in image and writing? Do you freaking hate them too?

[Serpentine]

What about the not-super-uncommon condition that results in a female body, a female mind and XY chromosomes? Specifically, are chromosomes really important here? Because that seems to me to be in conflict with Serpentine's definition.That's a (reasonably well-understood) medical condition, a birth defect. If their body is female, and they consider themselves female, I'd say that makes them a cisfemale who happens to have an odd abnormality.
Now, what I want to know is: where's the "cis" come from?

Faulty: hormonal? I think it's sort of: genetics first, then... ionno, probably something in foetal development, then gonad/genital, then hormonal (or maybe that fits in earlier...) then... other? Genetics usually dictates the latter, but sometimes something goes wrong there and sex determination goes to the next factor...
Probably talking out my arse, though. Never was good at this part of biology.

On lesbians: To quote the episode of Coupling I just saw last night
I've never understood men's obsession with lesbians. A whole area of sex with nothing for them to do... Oh, I just answered my own question.:tongue:

[Worira]

If you mean the word, it's a latin prefix meaning the exact opposite of trans- (my chair is a highly effective cisportation device). It was coined to provide a way of referring to non-transgendered individuals without implying that transgendered individuals are abnormal. Cisfemale is incorrect usage on its own, and is being used as shorthand for "cisgendered female."

[Serpentine]

Hm. Makes sense. Thanks.

[Coidzor]

And the very large hoardes of women that fetishize gay relationships in image and writing? Do you freaking hate them too?

Yeah, both practices are extremely distasteful. The fetishization of gay relationships even more so because they throw out their sexual fantasies out into the open and casual conversation under the guise of calling it art, which is simply rude and crass in addition to the whole being off-putting to those who don't share the interest. And insulting art by attributing talent to hacks and vision to the uninspired and pedestrian. Lesbian fetishes at least are honest about being porny and vulgar and not shared except in contexts which the level of sexualization and dirtiness is fairly well established before the topic itself comes up.

But, then, I'm full of fire and vinegar and barracudas right now.


Coid: What's with the snappishness? :smallconfused: Eaten a barracuda or something?

<_< Yes, yes I have. A whole pot of them.

[Dogmantra]

I feel like I don't deserve the title queer or transgender or genderqueer or anything. I spent most of my life thinking I was a heterosexual cisgendered man and I feel like I have no experience of what it's like to be queer or feel queer and I just feel like **** even identifying with what I feel like I am.

Oh Faulty, I'll call you queer any day you want!
:smallwink:

[Moonshadow]

Well, it just seems...demeaning to the women, reducing their love and/or affection to a fetish. See where I'm coming from?

Uhhhhh... then you may as well say that straight porn is demeaning to hetero couples, because its reducing their love/affection to a business. Or women fantasising about gay couples, etc.

Everything is going to offend somebody, thats the way of the world. Is it worth getting so worked up about it? No, its not. Unless its like, seriously infringing upon your ability to live a healthy life or something, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Delta]

Everything is going to offend somebody, thats the way of the world. Is it worth getting so worked up about it? No, its not. Unless its like, seriously infringing upon your ability to live a healthy life or something, I wouldn't worry about it.

That.

I mean, I'm a guy, and I like fantasizing, reading or writing or whatever about lesbian sex. And gay sex. Oh, and I like hetero sex, too. You could pretty much say I just like sex. (I like romance, too, while we're at it ;) )

Should I feel bad now because my fantasies are probably demeaning to pretty much everyone in the world, following this logic?

[Yora]

I really can't understand all this fuss about men thinking lesbians are hot or women who like gay fiction. The real problem here is society!

Hello! Might I get some attention for this not so small minority of bisexuals? :smallyuk:

Tank you. See, this wasn't so hard.
The real problem here is heteronormativity. There are straight men, gay men, straight women, and lesbian women, and nothing else. Because our cultural tradition and the use of our language (yes, I'm doing linguistics and communication at university) constantly enforces an reaffirms this overly simplefied view.
As bisexuals, you usually don't get as much trouble as homosexuals, but that's just because people ignore that you exist. Which is probably a bit better in relative terms, but still discrimination. And even LGBT people do that! :smallwink:

[Delta]

As bisexuals, you usually don't get as much trouble as homosexuals, but that's just because people ignore that you exist. Which is probably a bit better in relative terms, but still discrimination. And even LGBT people do that! :smallwink:

Oh I know that problem all too well. Sometimes I feel almost guilty when I'm with gay friends, hearing the stories about the troubles and discrimination they often face and knowing that I don't even just because I'm in a relationship with a girl, so people of course assume I'm hetero, and to be honest, most of the time I see no reason to tell them otherwise.

[Quincunx]

. . .And I'm expressing it akwardly. I don't see it evem as modification. Like... I'm having trouble disclosing stuff like that, but when I see women I get all envious of their breasts and the shape of their faces and so on. I want to be like that in a lot of ways, but I also am fond of my present junk, so I feel this conflict. BLURGH. I don't understand anything about myself anymore. Feeling confident that I'm a ****ed up crappy unattractive excuse for a man was easier and less depressing than being who I am. Wtf is up with that?

How many times am I going to have to re-quote the "I wanted not to become but to enjoy" paragraph? (. . .Hm. With the forum now deleting posts older than a year, there's only one surviving repetition. I'll type it out again if you like. It does speak to your quandary.)


. . .But one day... One day there will be Gender Bender Guns, and when there are... >=3 Oh, the havoc I shall sow.

I'm sure the other members of this thread will enjoy that someone exterior can not only judge what gender they are, but enforce that external judgment. Can't claim havoc if you're only firing that thing in accordance with the targets' wishes, now can you--assuming you restrict your initial targeting to within this thread. If not, may I request that you. . .disqualify some folk from their chosen careers? :smallamused:


What about the not-super-uncommon condition that results in a female body, a female mind and XY chromosomes? Specifically, are chromosomes really important here? Because that seems to me to be in conflict with Serpentine's definition.

So, uh, hello everybody. I'm new here.

As it's one of the few sexual/gender/whatever markers not subject to opinion, YES it's important! In this minefield, any objective data is more precious than sapphires.

Hello. This thread ought to be a place where you personally are protected from the opinions of non-LGBT like myself, but it's also become the nexus of all discussions about gender and well, we've got one also. Result: lack of any consensual normality, chaos, maybe even havoc. This goes in cycles and will quiet down soon.

[Moonshadow]

Thats because to many people, we bisexuals are merely attention seekers, or doing it because its cool. Biphobia offends me somewhat, I must admit. I know that I'm not just fooling around because its cool.

But, what you're referring too, about bisexuals being ignored? Thats called Bisexual Erasure.

[Coidzor]

Xzeno: Well, we're just having a flare up of intrigue right now. It should either be calming down already or doing so soon unless something sets things agoing anew. Some small amount of confusion and clarification is to be expected with such sensitive subjects. Also, the myriad of uses/currents united in this thread.

Anyway, Welcome. Hope the sillier times have been entertaining rather than offputting.
Oh I know that problem all too well. Sometimes I feel almost guilty when I'm with gay friends, hearing the stories about the troubles and discrimination they often face and knowing that I don't even just because I'm in a relationship with a girl, so people of course assume I'm hetero, and to be honest, most of the time I see no reason to tell them otherwise.

Well, there isn't unless it actually comes up as to what you are. If it's just their private assumptions, well, it's not your duty to go out and tell everyone your sexuality.

Quincunx: This is sad, but I'm having trouble imagining that as anything but a hit on the pope. I can't tell if I should be amused or horrified by the idea of femme palpatine.

[Delta]

Well, there isn't unless it actually comes up as to what you are. If it's just their private assumptions, well, it's not your duty to go out and tell everyone your sexuality.

I know that, of course, and it's not like I'd be lying about anything, but still, you get the feeling of people considering you something of a "cheater", because even if I'm sexually interested in my own sex, I face less discrimination about it than a gay man. As a bisexual, you're kind of "caught in the middle", which can be problematic at times.

[Coidzor]

Well, I can understand it being an annoying sentiment to face, and even how distressing it can be to get rejected by those who ostensibly should be offering some measure of encouragement. It's not like there's some kind of measure of queer-cred by which you can look down upon others with some kind of legitimacy simply by having acquired more of it by being more reviled or around longer or what have you.

Still, decidedly unfortunate that you've encountered it enough to have internalized it enough to feel bad about it on your own without having it thrown at you. Actually, I must say I'm surprised and disappointed that you've encountered enough people like that.

[Murdim]

Well, it just seems...demeaning to the women, reducing their love and/or affection to a fetish. See where I'm coming from?
So you're saying that those who happen to enjoy sapphic romanticism and/or eroticism, are always and necessarily misogynistic, homophobic bastards who reduce lesbianism to a fetish ? Does that mean that "straight" porn is actually about reducing heterosexual men and women to a fetish ? Not only porn, actually, but also rom coms, romance novels, and any kind of depiction of an heterosexual relationship, sexually charged or not, made for the sake of depicting an heterosexual relationship. :smallconfused:

Well, I know the comparison is (supposedly) imperfect, because straight relationships are something men can actually participate in, as opposed to lesbian relationships. Still, between liking something which is out of your reach, and "reducing" it "to a fetish", there's quite a leap. Sure, people can be demeaning towards lesbians despite finding them "hawt"... but I don't think those guys would be any less homophobic if they weren't into girl-on-girl, either. They just have... more occasions to be homophobic towards them, in the same way misogynistic jerks have more occasions to act as mysogynistic jerks towards women they find either "hot" or "ugly", compared to women they're indifferent to.

Also, the stereotypical reasons why men like girl-on-girl porn are... well, stereotypical. I've never encountered anyone (well, anyone worthy of being talked to, at least) who said, implied, or even felt like he's aroused by lesbian porn because it lets him "control" in some way those rebellious females that are otherwise inaccessible to his sacrosanct male sexual domination. The "twice as many girls to look at" explanation, while closer to truth, is still very reductive... "twice as many attractive people to look at" would be somewhat better, since in addition to the fact people who watch het porn tend to at least prefer women, straight male pornstars are notoriously NOT selected for their attractiveness. Additionally, the sheer aura of intense, dominating machismo that usually surrounds those actors may be an absolute no-no in terms of attraction and identification for quite a few people, even otherwise androphilic ones.

In reality, people may have deeper, more personal reasons to, well, like what they like... ... err... Or So I Heard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrSoIHeard)... :smalltongue:



Yeah, both practices are extremely distasteful. The fetishization of gay relationships even more so because they throw out their sexual fantasies out into the open and casual conversation under the guise of calling it art, which is simply rude and crass in addition to the whole being off-putting to those who don't share the interest. And insulting art by attributing talent to hacks and vision to the uninspired and pedestrian. Lesbian fetishes at least are honest about being porny and vulgar and not shared except in contexts which the level of sexualization and dirtiness is fairly well established before the topic itself comes up.
Well, how is it different from the way they treat heterosexual relationships ? :smallwink:



As for the XY women, it is a perfect exemple of individuals who are intersex, but not transsexual or transgendered in any way. Well, except in the eyes of some idiots who actually believe in the pseudoscientific notion that chromosomal sex should be the primary determinant of one's biological sex. Even when the whole intra-uterinal sexual differentiation process can be attributed to the action of one or two individual genes on the Y chromosome, genes that can be absent, deficient, or even transferred on a X chromosome (which may give a XX male). What a bunch of morons.

[Delta]

Still, decidedly unfortunate that you've encountered it enough to have internalized it enough to feel bad about it on your own without having it thrown at you. Actually, I must say I'm surprised and disappointed that you've encountered enough people like that.

Actually, it's not THAT huge of a problem, maybe my post sounded a little bit more bitter or disappointed than it was supposed to, it was just something I noticed and thought about a little.

I'm actually pretty comfortable with myself and my current situation, and pretty much always have been (I've never had any doubts about my sexuality, I guess I got kind of lucky there), I just like observing how people behave and what kind of bias they have, maybe even without noticing it.

[Beelzebub1111]

Okay, Maybe I'm just speaking of an isolated case where it's particularly bad, but Like I said I was just venting. This person seriously sees it EVERYWHERE, even if there isn't anything other than two close friends.

[Asta Kask]

Faulty: hormonal? I think it's sort of: genetics first, then... ionno, probably something in foetal development, then gonad/genital, then hormonal (or maybe that fits in earlier...) then... other? Genetics usually dictates the latter, but sometimes something goes wrong there and sex determination goes to the next factor...
Probably talking out my arse, though. Never was good at this part of biology.

You mean something like this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor)

The whole thing is a Rube Goldberg device - evolution rarely produces simple solutions.

Cis-trans? Cis means 'on this side of', Trans means 'on the other side of.' So the roman province of cisalpine gaul was on this of the alps (around Milano), and the roman province of transalpine gaul was on the other side of the alps (Provence).

[Graymayre]

In other news, DAY OF SILENCE is coming up and my school is participating.
How fun!

Am I the only one that thinks it's a little suspicious that the Day of Silence occurs the day after Tax Day? :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Well, I can understand it being an annoying sentiment to face, and even how distressing it can be to get rejected by those who ostensibly should be offering some measure of encouragement. It's not like there's some kind of measure of queer-cred by which you can look down upon others with some kind of legitimacy simply by having acquired more of it by being more reviled or around longer or what have you.

Still, decidedly unfortunate that you've encountered it enough to have internalized it enough to feel bad about it on your own without having it thrown at you. Actually, I must say I'm surprised and disappointed that you've encountered enough people like that.

I havn't met a single person, or heard about a specific person who said it, but "I've read on teh internets" that apprently some bisexuals have been accused by homosexuals of just not yet having admited their homosexuality.
I think that really hurts. So now we're just "confused"? That's pretty harsh to say, but from homosexuals this is unbeliveable!
But my personal experiences so far have all been very favorable. Of course I never bring it up with people who I'm not close to, and I'm not close to people I don't trust to be sensible, but so far nobody has even shown great surprise. It's simply not an issue.

[Asta Kask]

Why's that so unbelievable? There are African-Americans who are accused of being "Uncle Toms" because they study hard and get good grades. Just because you are a member of a persecuted minority doesn't make you tolerant, or nice. Some people are bastards wherever life places them.

The important thing is to not let them get to you. And that's hard, sometimes. But remember, whenever you feel hurt by something someone said, just say to yourself "That guy/gal is an idiot." And things may feel better.

[Serpentine]

The neuter decision was reversed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrie_May-Welby) :smallfrown:

[Asta Kask]

Can't have people upsetting our friendly dichotomies. Well, at least they have debate. I doubt they'd have one in some places...

[Lioness]

So, guys, I need a little advice.

Basically, my friend (male) is rather feminine looking, and he's convinced himself he has Klinefelter syndrome, which is basically where a guy gets an extra X chromosome into the mix. He being tested for it, but positive testing will mean, amongst other things, infertility.
He's just a little down on how he's not manly enough, and can't seem to figure out whether he wants a positive or a negative diagnoses. On one hand, a positive would mean that he's not incredibly feminine for no reason at all. On the other hand, a positive means almost definite infertility.

Just, how can I best support him, I guess? Let him know that I really don't care how the test turns out, as long as he turns out happy. He's already got a whole lot of other problems too.

Many thanks.

[Serpentine]

What really gets me about Norrie's situation is this: When I was looking for the story originally, I put in "New South Wales gender news" or something like that, and a dozen stories about the granting of the certificate came up straight away. When I do that again now, there is nothing about its refusal. I couldn't find it at all with a Google search. Wikipedia was the last resort. So, unless you go looking for it, you'd presume the certificate still stands.
Also, I just discovered that I'm only 2 degrees of separation from Norrie. Zie was in an episode of Murder Call, and one of the main characters from that show is a friend of my father's.

Lioness: Perhaps you could look into other possible reasons for his effeminacy, and/or ways to appear or become more masculine?

[Closak]

Well, look at me, here i have gone and made a list of some of the things i find attractive.

-Serpentine's avatar
-The Ancient Black Dragon
-Tiamat
-Cynder
-Lizardfolk
-Female dragons in general
-Half-dragons
-What's the name of the greek mythology mother of all monsters? Echidna or something.
-Power, and the ability to kick ass.


Yeah, definitely a reccuring pattern.


Just freaking wonderful :smallredface:

[Anuan]

To Lioness; I'd say that a negative on the test would be the best thing, because he'll still be 'not manly' if he's got an extra chromosome, but on a biological level. That would probably get to him more. Also, y'know, sterility. Bad thing.

What you need to do here is talk to him and try and get him to see that you don't have to be 'RARR BIG UNT MUSCULARRR' to be manly. 'Manly' should not be analygous to 'I am large and muscular and can assert my dominance amongst others of my species. Urgh, urgh, urgh."
We're not living in Conan's world. A man should be measured by his actions, not his biceps. And I don't mean driving your enemy before you and hearing the lamentations of their women.

If you can't convince him of that, well, there's...plenty of attractive women who like effeminate men. Find him one. Very few heterosexual males don't feel 'manly' after doing the deed. This is far from the best course of action, but it's at least partially viable. But really, the best is just to be there for him, and to tell him that he doesn't need to be physically large to be a man, or to be manly.

[Lioness]

To Lioness; *snip*

Thanks Anuan :)

I think that, in his head, he knows that he doesn't have to be all 'Rar' and manly, but something else in there just wont see it. It's also not just the effeminate-ness. It's causing him...dysfunction. That gets to him too.

I guess most I can do is see how it turns out, offer him hugs, and help him find a good girl

[Anuan]

Oh, you could also get him involved in a martial art.
Yes I give this advice in every situation ever.
Muay Thai and Wing Chun are both good for making skinny people very effective and convince themself that they're manly and tough :smalltongue:

[albis]

I agree with Anuan, on masculinity...
...also, you don't have to have a rare genetic syndrome to look a little to much like your opposite sex: some imperceptible hormonal imbalance also could do it...
after all men and women alike have both hestrogen and testosterone, what changes is the quantity of each one in your body... right? *not entirely sure*

[Serpentine]

-What's the name of the greek mythology mother of all monsters? Echidna or something.Yep, Echidna. It's one of the few snake-people I'm okay with Serpentine getting associated with (not a naga, not a yuan-ti!).

[Anuan]

Right, but the amount of eostrogen required to make you incredibly feminine to the degree of having that chromosome difference would be far from imperceptible. It would be pretty drastic.

[Closak]

Well now, that explains a few things.

...Just need to figure out a way to murder all the other greek gods and potential threats...*Starts plotting Zeus's downfall, as well as that of the other gods, then dispose of Typhon and then slaughter all the half-gods running around*

...Hey Kratos! Get over here! I got a job for you! *Grabs Echidna and runs like hell*


Geez, if Spike saw this he would flip out, i just know it.


Spike is a character in a Fanfic who has had a rather...bad experience involving Echidna.

[Serpentine]

You know Typhon is sometimes considered a dragon, right?

[Closak]

I am aware, to bad he's in my way.

Sorry buddy, nothing personal. Just getting rid of the competition.


...What? *Planeshifts away* Can't kill me if you can't catch me!

...Oh crud...It's Spike :smalleek:


Sometimes, being Lawful Evil really sucks...:smallannoyed:

[Serpentine]

Hm... I can't find any ancient depictions of Echidna :smallconfused: Descriptions, but no depictions...

I mean, uh... Back to your queer business, queerites! Queerians... Queerals... Queents... Queer is a queer word.

[Yora]

The important thing is to not let them get to you. And that's hard, sometimes. But remember, whenever you feel hurt by something someone said, just say to yourself "That guy/gal is an idiot." And things may feel better.

I think it was Mark Twain who said that realizing that all people are crazy and stupid solves every single question in the world. :smallbiggrin:

[Rauthiss]

I love you, Closak. I'm the same way.

[Asta Kask]

Ok, how's this for a definition of transsexuality: Someone who would consider this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girdle_of_Femininity/Masculinity) to be a blessed item. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

I squealed when Elan came back to get it. :smallbiggrin:

Can you create them without the curse? And maybe as something that doesn't get as much in the way like a belt.

[Lix Lorn]

I would give the tattered remains of my soul for that. O_o Or my DS. Or my anime collection. There's very little i wouldn't.

Heehee @ Closak. Wasn't i flirting with you in the Shipping thread? ;P
(Definition of too much flirting: Can't remember how many people there are that you are flirting with.)

[RabbitHoleLost]

(Definition of too much flirting: Can't remember how many people there are that you are flirting with.)
Seriously.

[Asta Kask]

I squealed when Elan came back to get it. :smallbiggrin:

Can you create them without the curse? And maybe as something that doesn't get as much in the way like a belt.

You mean something that's easily removable/reversible? Probably. It's a simple polymorph effect, so I don't see why not.

[Lix Lorn]

Alter Self.

Also, i was exaggerating. It's only three.

[Asta Kask]

Alter Self.

Also, i was exaggerating. It's only three.

Perhaps it says something about your memory? :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

My memory is terrible. it matches my will save for anything non hypnotic.

[Delta]

Can you create them without the curse? And maybe as something that doesn't get as much in the way like a belt.

Play Exalted, it has the Gem of Gender Changing, which... well... I think you can guess what it does (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin) ;)

[Lix Lorn]

I want one. Why can't we live in the D&D world? Or the OotS one?

[Faulty]

I squealed when Elan came back to get it. :smallbiggrin:

Can you create them without the curse? And maybe as something that doesn't get as much in the way like a belt.

There are basic rules for creating magic items in the DMG. You could create a Girdle of Androgyne if you wanted.

[Ilena]

Ya, but rules are ment to be broken :D

[Yora]

I want one. Why can't we live in the D&D world? Or the OotS one?

OR... we could PAO into changelings! That would be cool!

[Lix Lorn]

What's the LA on a shapeshifter?

[Asta Kask]

What's the LA on a shapeshifter?

Pretty high, depending on what you want to change to. In GURPS, it would cost you 15 points to shapeshift into another human, which is a significant chunk.

[Lix Lorn]

Curses. DXD

[Asta Kask]

However, there's the Androgynous perk that allows you to pass as a member of the opposite sex with a minimum of preparation.

And theres the Hermaphromorph advantage (5 points) that allows you to switch between fully functional neuter, male, and female forms in 10 seconds (Shapeshift is 1 second). However, it's an Exotic advantage, so you need the GM's permission and a good background story to take it.

As a gadget (belt of hermaphromorph) it would have the following limitations: Breakable (DR 2, -20%), Size Modifier -4* (15%), Can be Stolen (requires forceful removal, -10%) and Magical (-10%) for a total of 3 points.

I love GURPS. :smallbiggrin:

*eyeballed because I'm too lazy to look it up. What's the SM for a 2-inch wide belt? Anyone? Bueller?

[Lix Lorn]

Hermaphromorph. Reason: The character spent two years learning spells for it cause she wanted to be a girl. DXDD

[Pinnacle]

What's the LA on a shapeshifter?

For a changeling? +0. +0 for a shifter, too, although they aren't the kind of shapechanger you want. Higher for more powerful shapechangers, of course.

In Mutants & Masterminds, the ability to take on a single alternate appearance is 1 Power Point per +5 Disguise bonus. Three points will get you +15 and cost the same as a feat and 8 skill points--probably about on par with the human racial abilities for DnD 3.5.
Alternately, two points could get you +5 and the ability to assume any humanoid form. That's how many points the Bystander archetype (completely average with no unique traits or significant skills at all) has.

[Derjuin]

this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girdle_of_Femininity/Masculinity)

wtb D: so muchly. Maybe if I use my Ring of Djinni Summoning,
I can wish for one...!

[Quincunx]

Hermaphromorph. Reason: The character spent two years learning spells for it cause she wanted to be a girl. DXDD

. . .Backgrounds limited to twenty words or less? Challenge accepted!

Reason: The mother-goddess intended to teach the misogynist humility, then give him the means to reverse it. She didn't succeed.

[Asta Kask]

*shrug* If we do Magic as Powers, I would certainly allow either. But there are four or five different official ways of doing magic so it all depends. In what setting are we playing?

[golentan]

So, I go away for a day and a half and come back to find the thread has grown by more than a fifth it's prior length and people are apparently prepping for an LGBT Gurps game.

I'm so confused right now.

[Closak]

You can probably blame me, Lix Lorn and Yora for that one.

Whoops...


Oh dragon...*Drools*

[Lix Lorn]

(nod)
It's normally my fault.

Also, Alter Self. Duh. XD (is sorcerer.)

We should totally do a game using ourselves. XDDDDD

[Lyesmith]

That brings the tricky question of alignment. Also, I've never actually played.

A warlock/rogue mix sounds fun, though.

[Asta Kask]

So, I go away for a day and a half and come back to find the thread has grown by more than a fifth it's prior length and people are apparently prepping for an LGBT Gurps game.

I'm so confused right now.

If I decided to run a LGBT game, I probably wouldn't make sex-change easy, though. If you can quest for treasure or glory, why shouldn't you be able to have a heroic quest to change your sex?

[Lix Lorn]

I'm Chaotic Neutral, bordering on Chaotic good, occasionally bordering True Neutral.

SORCERER, BABEH!

Aaaawesome. Course, i'd use Alter Self as a temporary measure.
...Can you use Permanance on Alter Self?

[Faulty]

I'd say... as per 3.5 I'd be a Chaotic Good Psion.

I could try and learn GURPS if you actually are going to run a game.

[Lix Lorn]

Psionics rock... i wanna be a Wilder/Sorcerer.

GESTAAAALT

(Shot)

[golentan]

Pseudonatural Formian Myrmarch?

I'd actually go rogue. Not like Sarah, just taking the class.

[Lix Lorn]

We *should* do this roleplay. Mismatched group of unsane heroes and villains, searching the world for an answer to their quest... the Orb of Gender Reassignment, and the Crystal Ball of True Love.

Shame they belonged to a ThreeTimesOverEpicLevel Half-Dracolich King, really.

[Lyesmith]

In that case, dibs on Token Evil Teammate.

[Lix Lorn]

I think we have several evils. XD

[Faulty]

If we're playing ourselves, I'll be an overly principled Robin Head-esque Anarchist type.

[Derjuin]

If we're playing ourselves, I'd be a commoner >.>... =3

I've always wanted to try out a Dread Necromancer...or a Ranger...

[SMEE]

So... yeah...
Talking to docs in Thailand, trying to schedule it for the end of April.

[Lix Lorn]

That's good, right Smee?
(hugs)

Also, you'd be a D&D self. So a PC. XD

[Derjuin]

I hope everything goes well for you Smee! :smallbiggrin: End of April, this year?

[Lioness]

Yep, Echidna. It's one of the few snake-people I'm okay with Serpentine getting associated with (not a naga, not a yuan-ti!).

Errr...echidna?

http://www.abc.net.au/science/scribblygum/June2000/img/f_echid10.jpg

[Serpentine]

No, Echidna, Mother of Monsters.

http://www.monstropedia.org/images/thumb/2/20/Echidna.jpg/200px-Echidna.jpg
http://worldsofimagination.com/Echidna.jpg

[Coidzor]

So... we can't let you reproduce because it'd be concentrated evil and ugly? :smallconfused:

Ow.

[Asta Kask]

Err... no, I have too much on my plate to run a GURPS LGBT campaign. But I like to think out loud.

And there's no reason you couldn't play a D&D campaign like that. Just say that sex switches is banned by the god of magic, who considers it an abomination. The goal of the campaign is to convince him (or her) otherwise. Good luck!

[Closak]

http://worldsofimagination.com/Echidna.jpg

Why hello there babe...hawt :smallwink::smallamused:


Great, now you turned me on...:smalleek:

[Lix Lorn]

;_;
Stop distracting him with pretty things! I am trying to FLIRT here.

@Asta: Cooool. Of course, just cause she says it's okay doesn't stop them having to find some magical artifacts to do it.
Such as the ones i made up. ;P

[Serpentine]

But but but I'm the reptilian one! D=

[Dogmantra]

I wrapped an elastic band round my finger and it looks like a ring. My hand is about sixty times more feminine and this pleases me greatly. I look like a bit of an idiot wearing an elastic band, but "whatevs".

I can't believe that it's the best thing to happen to me today?
:smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

DXD
I almost wore a strip of paper as a bracelet once. XD

[Dogmantra]

It's never even been (that much of) an urge of mine either, I just seem to really enjoy having a feminine left hand.

[Asta Kask]

@Asta: Cooool. Of course, just cause she says it's okay doesn't stop them having to find some magical artifacts to do it.
Such as the ones i made up. ;P

That's up to the DM. But if the God of Magic says no, then... The thing is, if I make the sex change the goal of the campaign then I don't want the players to go down to Wal-Mart and buy a sex change kit. (They should sell those at Wal-Mart, that would be so cool...)

The campaign would be about finding your true self, and I think you could get some spectacular roleplaying and more than a little existential philosophy. "To thine own self be true..." So once those characters who wish to have achieved sex change, and other issues have been resolved, the campaign's pretty much over.

It might be problematic convincing any major company to touch this with a 10' pole, however. Saying that you'll corner the transsexual role-player market isn't really that impressive, numbers-wise...

So, yeah, it would be fun to do, but like I said - I have too much to do. If you want to do it, go ahead. You can always PM me for advice.

[Serpentine]

I just seem to really enjoy having a feminine left hand....

Naaaah, I'll let it slide :smallwink:

[Lix Lorn]

Ah, but the bonds forged in this heartfelt quest could lead to other wacky-though-less-obscure adventures! 8D

Also, :smallbiggrin: at Serpentine's implication.

[Dogmantra]

...

Naaaah, I'll let it slide :smallwink:

...
Ewwwww!

I swear to anyone you care for me to swear at that I totally never mean the numerous sexual references in my speech.

Also I would take it off to do that, sheesh.