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View Full Version : [3.5] So what DOES one do about an antimagic field?



Corey
2010-02-26, 09:35 AM
I'm making up my highest-level caster character ever -- character(s) counting a cohort -- and that's leading me to wonder:

How DOES one combat an antimagic field?

Answers that I've thought of so far include:

1. Bring friends who hit hard (I will be).
2. Bring friends who are good archers (not so much).
3. M's Disjunction -- naah. 20% chance of working isn't very good.
4. Throw up a Prismatic Sphere and ignore each other. But that just postpones the fight.
5. Telekinesis. Arguably, I could take 15 Colossal arrows, which would do 3d6 damage each if they hit in a Telekinesis attack, make my attack rolls, and argue that success or failure was determined by their trajectory while outside the antimagic field. But frankly, that's a bit dubious ...

I'm assuming that if I Polymorph into some other form, I'll get changed back if once I close with Antimagic Field Guy in melee.

I could boost my fly speed higher than his and plonk him with arrows in the usual way, but that would take a LOT of arrows to finish off once my uses of True Strike and the like run out.

What else?

Ranos
2010-02-26, 09:41 AM
I've found that alchemical items can tip the odds in your favor in such situations. Tanglefoot bags, shapesand and dust eggshells can win the day when there's no magic to counter them.

Quirp
2010-02-26, 09:42 AM
The Orb spells or other SR: no conjurations are often used to deal with guys with an antimagic field. Or you could use the initiate of mystra but thats high end cheese.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 09:43 AM
Stay out of range + Orbs.

Or Telekinesis (violent thrust stays on trajectory once inside the field).

Or Cometfall, for the laughs.

Or Call creatures.

As for what to do if caught in one, Invoke Magic + Dimension Door, or tinfoil hat (Shrink Itemed tent, blocks LoE for the emanation).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 09:45 AM
I use Iot7v + orbs. Yay for prismatic wall and it's child effects ignoring anti-magic fields, via both the text in its spell and the text in AMF itself.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 09:47 AM
As for what to do if caught in one, Invoke Magic + Dimension Door, or tinfoil hat (Shrink Itemed tent, blocks LoE for the emanation).

Contingency/Instant Refuge can also be worded so that you can activate it to counter AMF. E.g. the basic word-trigger (speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn-order, so make Contingency trigger you saying some specific word that you wouldn't otherwise use) enables you to use it against AMF while retaining the ability to dodge Disjunctions and painful Orbs.

Or just "if there's an AMF within 5' of me"; Anticipate Teleportation takes care of the rest.

Nero24200
2010-02-26, 09:55 AM
Stone shape - Shape the stone completely around the field. If your foes are in the field they can't get out (barring adamantine weapons).

Corey
2010-02-26, 09:56 AM
I've found that alchemical items can tip the odds in your favor in such situations. Tanglefoot bags, shapesand and dust eggshells can win the day when there's no magic to counter them.

Oh, good. So they're not magical?

jiriku
2010-02-26, 09:58 AM
Wait, what? You're magically powerful enough to be worried about an anti-magic field, but the best ranged attacks you have are arrows?

Assuming you are a wizard, you have myriad options. Use transmute rock to mud and collapse a cavern ceiling on your opponent. Cast grease all around him and watch him fall as soon as he tries to move over it. Any spell effect from a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance will still hang around when an anti-magic field rolls over it.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 10:00 AM
Contingency/Instant Refuge can also be worded so that you can activate it to counter AMF. E.g. the basic word-trigger (speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn-order, so make Contingency trigger you saying some specific word that you wouldn't otherwise use) enables you to use it against AMF while retaining the ability to dodge Disjunctions and painful Orbs.

Or just "if there's an AMF within 5' of me"; Anticipate Teleportation takes care of the rest.

Problem is that an AMF is invisible, so unless you have some other means of knowing it's there (which you might well have) you won't be able to say the word before the AMF gets you.

And how is Anticipate Teleportation relevant?

Corey
2010-02-26, 10:04 AM
Lots of acronyms and abbreviations in this thread that aren't obvious to me ...

What kinds of Orbs are immune to antimagic fields?

I'm only seeing Prismatic effects that could, as previously noted, lead to a standoff, but not ones that let one engage w/ somebody in an AMF and win.

The numbers are hard to make work on Stone Shape, unless you say that the item of at least 30 cubic feet can be a thin shell surrounding the 1000ish cubic feet of an AMF.

I don't know where Instant Refuge is from, but it sounds like an "OK, I agree not to fight" deal. Ditto Teleport-oriented answers.

What is Invoke Magic?

I don't read AMF to have emanations/line of effect. What am I missing?

Corey
2010-02-26, 10:07 AM
Wait, what? You're magically powerful enough to be worried about an anti-magic field, but the best ranged attacks you have are arrows?

Assuming you are a wizard, you have myriad options. Use transmute rock to mud and collapse a cavern ceiling on your opponent. Cast grease all around him and watch him fall as soon as he tries to move over it. Any spell effect from a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance will still hang around when an anti-magic field rolls over it.

What if he's outdoors and can fly?

Yeah, AMF suppresses MOST ways of flying -- but not all. ;)

And are you sure about conjured stuff surviving contact with an AMF? Conjured creatures don't. But admittedly they're Summoned, while other stuff is typically Created.

Hmm -- that shadow creation spell is sounding interesting ...

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 10:07 AM
Problem is that an AMF is invisible, so unless you have some other means of knowing it's there (which you might well have) you won't be able to say the word before the AMF gets you.

Simple (Greater) Arcane Sight will do.


And how is Anticipate Teleportation relevant?

The other way to get AMF next to you, and with less chance of interruption is for a caster to teleport next to you with a shaped AMF around him. Alternatively, for a Swordsage to Shadow Jaunt next to you. Anticipate Teleportation protects you from these otherwise-hard-to-stop/detect-in-time methods of approach.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 10:11 AM
Lots of acronyms and abbreviations in this thread that aren't obvious to me ...

What kinds of Orbs are immune to antimagic fields?

Orb of Fire/Sonic/Force/Whatever from Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium are no-SR damage spells. You can toss these into AMF with impunity; they're strictly non-magical once propelled. In Core, the quality is much lower, but there's e.g. Melf's Acid Arrow.

Though frankly, Telekinesis or similars, or Calling are better options in Core. Lemme tell you, one of your Planar Bound Demons is more than able to kick any sorry loser's ass in an AMF since most of the Demon's awesome is martial prowess and the other can't match without magic items.


I'm only seeing Prismatic effects that could, as previously noted, lead to a standoff, but not ones that let one engage w/ somebody in an AMF and win.

What you need to do is block AMF for long enough to get some distance, and rain death.


I don't know where Instant Refuge is from, but it sounds like an "OK, I agree not to fight" deal. Ditto Teleport-oriented answers.

It's from Spell Compendium. The trick is to have Contingency Teleport you away after your opponent's initial approach. After you are aware of their presence, you can hold your distance with teleportation and movement while using attack spells like the Orbs or various Rays or such from outside the distance.


What is Invoke Magic?

Spell from Lords of Madness. A level 9 Evocation. Enables you to cast a spell of 4th level or lower inside AMF.


I don't read AMF to have emanations/line of effect. What am I missing?

Rules Compendium.

Douglas
2010-02-26, 10:11 AM
What kinds of Orbs are immune to antimagic fields?
The instantaneous conjuration variety, consisting of a set of spells called Orb of <insert element> from Spell Compendium and (I think) Complete Arcane.


What is Invoke Magic?
A 9th level spell that can be cast inside an AMF to allow you to cast one 4th level or lower spell inside the AMF.


I don't read AMF to have emanations/line of effect. What am I missing?
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)

Corey
2010-02-26, 10:15 AM
Oh. THAT emanation. ;)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 10:18 AM
Lots of acronyms and abbreviations in this thread that aren't obvious to me ...

What kinds of Orbs are immune to antimagic fields?

Orb of Fire/Orb of Electricity/Orb of Sound/Orb of Acid/Orb of Cold and their Lesser versions are Instantaneous Conjurations. Because they create the element in the palm of your hand, it's actually there and is hence not suppressed by AMF (because there's no magic in the Orb to suppress).


I don't know where Instant Refuge is from, but it sounds like an "OK, I agree not to fight" deal. Ditto Teleport-oriented answers.

More like "I escape now, go to my private Time Stopped demiplane, buff up the wazoo, and come back to hand you your butt".


What is Invoke Magic?

A spell which can be cast in areas of dead magic or AMFs that allows you to cast a 4th level or lower spell and have it unaffected. 9th level Sor/Wiz Evocation.


I don't read AMF to have emanations/line of effect. What am I missing?

The spell description and the description of emanations.

Flickerdart
2010-02-26, 10:23 AM
You could pull the Tinfoil Hat trick: Shrink Item on a large cone and wear it as a hat. When the Antimagic field hits you, the Shrink is suppressed, the cone falls down around you, blocks line of effect and then you teleport away.

Corey
2010-02-26, 10:28 AM
By the way, I'm asking from the standpoint of a spontaneous caster, so "Run away and come back with a different set of spells" isn't as appealing as it might be for somebody with a thick spellbook.

Flickerdart
2010-02-26, 10:32 AM
It's more "run away and then come back when you're not in an antimagic field." Which is considerably more useful, and gives the enemy less time to react. After all, they don't know you're not in the cone anymore, and if you also have a Shrunk cloud on top of the hat, they won't even know you had the cone to start with.

Corey
2010-02-26, 10:39 AM
It's more "run away and then come back when you're not in an antimagic field." Which is considerably more useful, and gives the enemy less time to react. After all, they don't know you're not in the cone anymore, and if you also have a Shrunk cloud on top of the hat, they won't even know you had the cone to start with.

As in wait out the duration. Makes sense ...

OK. One thing I just decided is to take Spellcraft up high. ;)

Beorn080
2010-02-26, 10:49 AM
I have to ask.

The description of an emanation says if you have total cover, it doesn't affect you. Does that mean a reinforced glass hat would be better? Would let you fire off spells past the AMF, while still protecting you since you have total cover from being hit.

Douglas
2010-02-26, 10:55 AM
Anything sufficient to block the AMF's emanation would also be enough to block your own line of effect for any offensive spells you might want to cast.

JeminiZero
2010-02-26, 10:55 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned ToB yet. There are 2 (sets) of maneuvers that are handy for fighting AMFs. Unfortunately, you need to splash 1 level in a martial adept class to use them repeatedly (you could also spend a feat for them, but then it is only usale 1/encounter).

Iron Heart Surge: Very cheesy. Intepretations vary on how it works from letting you function normally in an AMF to removing the AMF altogether.

Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink: A teleport, with more advanced versions requiring smaller action to initiate. What is unique about is that it is EX, so it can work in an antimagic field.

Radar
2010-02-26, 10:55 AM
Ready an action, to cast invisible (+0 metamagic feat) Prismatic Wall, when the warrior with AMF charges or moves - obviously put the wall on his way.

If anything else fails, there is Forcecage - the barred version is about big enough to lock the whole AMF. Since it's a costly spell and therefore not often used, it would be better for a spontaneous caster to buy a scroll as a last resort defence.

Shrink Item can also be used to drop boulder on the warrior from above, or shoot shrunk, Colossal bolts from your crossbow. Or use Telekinesis to hurl bolts shrunk to Colossal size (original size: Colossal++++) for extra power. :smallbiggrin:

lsfreak
2010-02-26, 11:06 AM
I have to ask.

The description of an emanation says if you have total cover, it doesn't affect you. Does that mean a reinforced glass hat would be better? Would let you fire off spells past the AMF, while still protecting you since you have total cover from being hit.

You just blocked your Line of Effect to everything. You can see what's going on, sure, but you can't do much of anything. Also glass is a hell of a lot easier to break than adamantine.

EDIT: Multiple tabs really fail me more than they're worth.

Amiel
2010-02-26, 11:10 AM
Dominate a rust monster dragon monster
Goad it into the antimagic field; use Diplomacy, Intimidate et al
Watch it absolutely slaughter the opposition
????
PROFIT!

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-26, 11:10 AM
You just blocked your Line of Effect to everything. You can see what's going on, sure, but you can't do much of anything. Also glass is a hell of a lot easier to break than adamantine.

EDIT: Multiple tabs really fail me more than they're worth.

True. That's where DDoor comes into play.


Note: Do not mention Tower Shields as an option for blocking an AMF. It doesn't work.

Corey
2010-02-26, 11:11 AM
I sense a consensus here that casting Shrink every once in a while is a good hedge. Makes sense.

Sadly, it doesn't work at all for my spell list. :( I'd have to use a scarce Level 4 spell-known slot on it.

Edit: Wait! I have Polymorph Any Object!!

Corey
2010-02-26, 11:15 AM
OK. What would be a good dodge to Polymorph ONE object and wind up with what's needed, which is MANY of them?

Edit: One idea -- stick a lot of colossal bolts into a very large block of ice, shrink the whole thing, and let it melt normally.

Beorn080
2010-02-26, 11:17 AM
Forcecage is specifically knocked down by an AMF.

The reason I said glass was for various spells that don't emanate from your hands. I can't recall a rule that says you need to be able to hit a spot to summon/call to that square, or summoning a Prismatic wall on top of the guy from inside the cone of glass. I would think just seeing the spot would be fine.

Corey
2010-02-26, 11:19 AM
Hah. Dominate a monster. Polymorph it into a form that doesn't need to eat/breathe, and is shrunk. Carry around until needed ...

Edit: Ack. The one day/level limit is a bit tedious ...

Beorn080
2010-02-26, 11:26 AM
Take leadership, get a friendly dragon cohort. PaO it into a lizard and pretend its your familiar/make it your actual familiar. Laugh at AMF fields.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 11:29 AM
Forcecage is specifically knocked down by an AMF.

Specifically? Where's that spelled out? I know Forcecage isn't specifically excluded, but it's said to compose of Walls of Force which are specifically excluded making it...unclear either way. RAW exists, but how accurate that is is not clear in the least.

Optimystik
2010-02-26, 11:57 AM
There are three reasonable interpretations for Forcecage + AMF:

1) AMF negates the whole spell, as it is not listed as an exception. (Note: this one is strict RAW.)
2) AMF has no effect, as the spell is similar to wall of force. This is probably RAI.
3) The "lattice" use of forcecage is susceptible to AMF, while the "walls of force" use is not.

I personally favor (3) - this is RAMS, at least to me. I can imagine the holes in the framework allow the AMF to engulf the magical construction in a way that it can't do with a wall of force.

Corey
2010-02-26, 12:02 PM
Honestly, I don't think a normal size object that had been polymorphed from a colossal one should do colossal-appropriate damage when it hits inside the AMF. The force with which it was propelled is what's appropriate for a normal object ...

lord_khaine
2010-02-26, 12:02 PM
Contingency/Instant Refuge can also be worded so that you can activate it to counter AMF. E.g. the basic word-trigger (speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn-order, so make Contingency trigger you saying some specific word that you wouldn't otherwise use) enables you to use it against AMF while retaining the ability to dodge Disjunctions and painful Orbs.



Where have you found the rule that says you can speak outside your turn?

Evard
2010-02-26, 12:04 PM
Smile at the mage as I pull out my great axe and go into a rage :D

ericgrau
2010-02-26, 12:04 PM
Wall of force. Party grappler. Basically you delay him, take out all his allies, then gang up on the poor magicless shmuck. Remember, you are in a party.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 12:06 PM
Where have you found the rule that says you can speak outside your turn?

Speak (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#speak):
"In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 12:07 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned ToB yet. There are 2 (sets) of maneuvers that are handy for fighting AMFs. Unfortunately, you need to splash 1 level in a martial adept class to use them repeatedly (you could also spend a feat for them, but then it is only usale 1/encounter).

Iron Heart Surge: Very cheesy. Intepretations vary on how it works from letting you function normally in an AMF to removing the AMF altogether.

Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink: A teleport, with more advanced versions requiring smaller action to initiate. What is unique about is that it is EX, so it can work in an antimagic field.

If you're going to dip a level to avoid AMFs, you may as well take IOT7V. It progresses casting, so it's going to generally be more helpful.

Veils work merrily in AMFs, so you still have cover, a damage wall between you and them, and a "stops all non magical ranged attacks". With 1 level. If you're willing to sink a few levels in, you can get one that blocks all magical effect(including AMF). So, you can then walk around in AMFs completely unhindered, nuking out of it with orbs.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-26, 12:09 PM
Wall of force. Party grappler. Basically you delay him, take out all his allies, then gang up on the poor magicless shmuck. Remember, you are in a party.

1: You assume the mage is trapped inside the AMF, which any caster worth his Spells/day is going to do everything required (Read: Walk out of the area of the spell, never get inside it in the first place).

2: Invoke Magic>DDoor. 1K price tag, but it's a Swift action to cast and can be cast inside the AMF.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 12:13 PM
If you're going to dip a level to avoid AMFs, you may as well take IOT7V. It progresses casting, so it's going to generally be more helpful.

Veils work merrily in AMFs, so you still have cover, a damage wall between you and them, and a "stops all non magical ranged attacks". With 1 level. If you're willing to sink a few levels in, you can get one that blocks all magical effect(including AMF). So, you can then walk around in AMFs completely unhindered, nuking out of it with orbs.

Unless you rule that any Warding blocks AMFs (because of the "duplicate the layers of a Prismatic Wall" clause), no they don't work in AMFs, because they're SLAs.


1: You assume the mage is trapped inside the AMF, which any caster worth his Spells/day is going to do everything required (Read: Walk out of the area of the spell, never get inside it in the first place).

2: Invoke Magic>DDoor. 1K price tag, but it's a Swift action to cast and can be cast inside the AMF.

He's talking about the idiot who cast AMF.

Corey
2010-02-26, 12:14 PM
Party grappler.

Yeah. I can stand next to my druid cohort's pet tyrannosaurus and see if anybody wants to get within melee range of me without using magical items himself. That's probably the simplest solution. ;)

Or dire polar bear. I haven't decided yet.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-26, 12:18 PM
He's talking about the idiot who cast AMF.

Oh. Didn't get that from his post.

Douglas
2010-02-26, 12:36 PM
The reason I said glass was for various spells that don't emanate from your hands. I can't recall a rule that says you need to be able to hit a spot to summon/call to that square, or summoning a Prismatic wall on top of the guy from inside the cone of glass. I would think just seeing the spot would be fine.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect)

jiriku
2010-02-26, 12:51 PM
I would say your best defense is probably celerity+dimension door. Just get out of Dodge when you see the dude coming and whack him from a distance with your attack of choice. If he chases you, well, that's a win because he's using full-round actions to do nothing but close range while your fellow party members are pelting him with attacks.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 12:57 PM
Unless you rule that any Warding blocks AMFs (because of the "duplicate the layers of a Prismatic Wall" clause), no they don't work in AMFs, because they're SLAs.


Why wouldnt you rule that way? Prismatic wall even mentions other effects that duplicate it layer by layer, which Iot7V obviously does, and the effects are inherited. The whole thing works in an AMF, regardless of how many layers are up at a time.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 01:20 PM
Why wouldnt you rule that way? Prismatic wall even mentions other effects that duplicate it layer by layer, which Iot7V obviously does, and the effects are inherited. The whole thing works in an AMF, regardless of how many layers are up at a time.

Yeah... sorta. You can see why a DM wouldn't want to allow it, given the horrendous brokenness, and the fact that the warding description doesn't actually say it blocks AMFs.

tyckspoon
2010-02-26, 01:26 PM
Yeah... sorta. You can see why a DM wouldn't want to allow it, given the horrendous brokenness, and the fact that the warding description doesn't actually say it blocks AMFs.

Yes, because using a highly defensive class ability to defend yourself against one of the game's most obnoxious effects is so very broken. AMF really isn't meant to be the absolute counter to casters. It's ok for them to have some countermeasures, especially when they come from a class that was taken specifically to provide particularly effective defenses.

Milskidasith
2010-02-26, 01:28 PM
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect)

This is why you use mindrape + love's pain. It requires only LoE to yourself, and ignores LoE to hit your intended target.

There's a reason I got the combo banned from the Test of Spite. It's pretty nutty if you (unlike my few tests) get all the defensive measures you need to not take any damage.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 01:33 PM
Yes, because using a highly defensive class ability to defend yourself against one of the game's most obnoxious effects is so very broken. AMF really isn't meant to be the absolute counter to casters. It's ok for them to have some countermeasures, especially when they come from a class that was taken specifically to provide particularly effective defenses.

Actually, it is so very broken.

ericgrau
2010-02-26, 01:38 PM
I would say your best defense is probably celerity+dimension door. Just get out of Dodge when you see the dude coming and whack him from a distance with your attack of choice. If he chases you, well, that's a win because he's using full-round actions to do nothing but close range while your fellow party members are pelting him with attacks.

He has a party too. I'd call it about even with that tactic.

The thing with tactics like AMF is not how you can avoid it but how you can either eliminate that guy quickly (the quickly part is difficult with an AMF) or how you can neutralize him for as long as you need to win against the other challenges that the fight has. Like martial arts it's much easier to deflect an attack than to stop it entirely. Or in your case it's easier than running like the dickens. If it were just 1v1 then the AMF guy is just as screwed as you are and really all you need is a fighter to beat him to death; still no need to address the AMF directly. Maybe beating him to death is harder if you're a wizard, but perhaps not at long range, and you're in a party anyway so it doesn't matter.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 01:45 PM
Hilarious way to beat an AMF: Apocalypse From The Sky.

It's an instantaneous conjuration, after all.

Also allows no save.

Yes, I'm kidding.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 01:48 PM
Actually, it is so very broken.

Nah, AMF is the broken effect. It's far too good for it's level, and having counters for it is reasonable.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 01:50 PM
Nah, AMF is the broken effect. It's far too good for it's level, and having counters for it is reasonable.

It's meant to nerf casters. Casters are overpowered.

absolmorph
2010-02-26, 01:56 PM
Actually, it is so very broken.
Yes, because specializing in making walls that are very tough to get through and can be put up wherever is so broken. Especially when you compare it to the reasons casters are called over-powered.
Sure, all the stuff that allows a caster to either be better than the fighter at being a fighter is fine, and being able to make your own demiplane with whatever time trait you want is fine, but the ability to make a wall in an AMF? No way, that's over-powered! It can't be allowed!

Woo-hoo, sarcasm!

ericgrau
2010-02-26, 02:03 PM
I'm gonna err on the side that anything that makes it much easier than normal to stop an AMF is the broken thing. AMF and other caster counters really need to stay as strong as they are and so AMF & co. are not what's broken.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 02:04 PM
It's meant to nerf casters. Casters are overpowered.

I doubt that was the intent of it at all. I don't think the designers put a lot of effort into nerfing casters in core.

Its certainly supposed to be a useful tool against magic, and it is....but if it were meant to nerf casters, it wouldn't be an ability given to casters.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 02:09 PM
Yes, because specializing in making walls that are very tough to get through and can be put up wherever is so broken. Especially when you compare it to the reasons casters are called over-powered.
Sure, all the stuff that allows a caster to either be better than the fighter at being a fighter is fine, and being able to make your own demiplane with whatever time trait you want is fine, but the ability to make a wall in an AMF? No way, that's over-powered! It can't be allowed!

Woo-hoo, sarcasm!

Putting up a wall that stops AMF allows casters to keep right on doing all that stuff no matter what. With AMF in the picture, it's the difference between Batman and a commoner (excepting Tinfoil Hats or Invoke Magic).

That is most definitely overpowered.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 02:12 PM
Putting up a wall that stops AMF allows casters to keep right on doing all that stuff no matter what. With AMF in the picture, it's the difference between Batman and a commoner (excepting Tinfoil Hats or Invoke Magic).

That is most definitely overpowered.

Heal makes the difference between a caster doing all that stuff no matter what and a corpse.

That doesn't make heal overpowered.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 02:15 PM
Heal makes the difference between a caster doing all that stuff no matter what and a corpse.

That doesn't make heal overpowered.

Heal is a basic ability of clerics.

Veils are from a full casting PrC and make you just about invulnerable to lots of stuff that isn't AMF.

An IotSV is better than a straight Wizard. Hence, IotSV is overpowered.

Corey
2010-02-26, 02:18 PM
An IotSV is better than a straight Wizard.

Isn't that supposed to be the point of PrCs?

Almost anything that advances your spell progression like a wizard will be better than a straight wizard. All you're giving up is a feat every five levels plus some improvements for your familiar.

faceroll
2010-02-26, 02:26 PM
Wait, what? You're magically powerful enough to be worried about an anti-magic field, but the best ranged attacks you have are arrows?

Assuming you are a wizard, you have myriad options. Use transmute rock to mud and collapse a cavern ceiling on your opponent. Cast grease all around him and watch him fall as soon as he tries to move over it. Any spell effect from a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance will still hang around when an anti-magic field rolls over it.

The grease one wouldn't work, since grease has a duration, and would wink out whenever bubble boy moved. Trans rock to mud also has a duration, which means collapsing the ceiling on him would only kind of work, since as soon as the mud bumped up against the sphere, it''d turn back to rock.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 02:27 PM
Isn't that supposed to be the point of PrCs?

Almost anything that advances your spell progression like a wizard will be better than a straight wizard. All you're giving up is a feat every five levels plus some improvements for your familiar.

That's NOT meant to be the point of PrCs. They're meant to be something you're actually supposed to weigh up against more levels in the base class.

Full caster PrCs are this gone horribly wrong.

Corey
2010-02-26, 02:27 PM
as soon as the mud bumped up against the sphere, it''d turn back to rock.

... not that that would be a BAD thing, except for him ...

ericgrau
2010-02-26, 02:28 PM
I doubt that was the intent of it at all. I don't think the designers put a lot of effort into nerfing casters in core.

Its certainly supposed to be a useful tool against magic, and it is....but if it were meant to nerf casters, it wouldn't be an ability given to casters.

Maybe not nerf, but there sure are a lot of counters. Silence is the famous classic, plus dispel, nightmare, touch of idiocy and I'm sure a dozen other spells I'm forgetting. Beyond those there's losing your spell component pouch or holy symbol, getting your spellbook stolen, readied actions to disrupt with damage, other concentration checks from difficult circumstances (with DCs up to 29), grappling. And there are counters to counters, but they each take a major chunk of resources. And all that is ignoring the counters to specific spells and abilities. It can make things quite interesting. What I don't like is any special ability/feat/spell/etc. that says "Ha, I can stop that at hardly any cost and there's nothing you can do about it."

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-26, 02:29 PM
The grease one wouldn't work, since grease has a duration, and would wink out whenever bubble boy moved. Trans rock to mud also has a duration, which means collapsing the ceiling on him would only kind of work, since as soon as the mud bumped up against the sphere, it''d turn back to rock.

So it goes from being Transmute Rock to Mud to Rock Falls, Idiot Dies...



I fail to see how this is a problem.

tyckspoon
2010-02-26, 02:33 PM
What I don't like is any special ability/feat/spell/etc. that says "Ha, I can stop that and there's nothing you can do about it."

So... Anti Magic Field when people insist that things like Shrink Item and Veils don't work on it?

ericgrau
2010-02-26, 02:35 PM
Not saying the do or don't work, but as long as there are other tactics that work it's fine if they don't. There is something you can do about an AMF. But some spell has to fail, or more likely multiple spells, or AMF would be useless.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-26, 02:40 PM
I would:

1. Be a Half-Red Dragon Half-Aquatic Elf Duskblade/Frost Mage/Arcane Archerer with an Elven Greatbow and Leviathin Slayer

2. I'd Imbue Transmute flesh to ice onto my arrow

3. i'd shoot the arrow at the mage

4. I'd have the barbarian hit him with his weapon, shattering him

JonestheSpy
2010-02-26, 02:42 PM
The idea the Orb spells can get through an AMF is incredibly stupid. What do you think is holding together this little ball of energy and propelling it, if not magic?

Any DM who lets that one slip by needs to paint "welcome" on his back and go lie down on th porch until he regains his senses.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 02:46 PM
The idea the Orb spells can gt through an AMF is incredibly stupid. What do yo think is holding together this little ball of energy and propelling it, if not magic?

Momentum and inertia.

If you don't want to go by the rules, go by the physics. Don't want to go by the physics, go by the rules.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-26, 02:50 PM
Any DM who lets that one slip by needs to paint "welcome" on his back and go lie down on th porch until he regains his senses.

Or, you know, have any idea how the game rules work? Allowing things that are supposed to be allowed is far from being a doormat. I'd say disallowing things due to common sense despite it being a magical effect (when there are far larger breaches in common sense even within that same effect) similar to hanging yourself on a hook in a DIY shop*, that doesn't mean I need to say so in such a manner or that my position is correct enough to be stated as "any DM who allows that needs to...". A great many posters would disagree with you, in any case.


*(being a tool)

Edit: @M9M. Good point, and far less angry than mine too.

faceroll
2010-02-26, 02:51 PM
So it goes from being Transmute Rock to Mud to Rock Falls, Idiot Dies...



I fail to see how this is a problem.

I think it would more end up encapsulating him in a stone sphere, rather than being a falling rock. Like quick drying cement or something,

Corey
2010-02-26, 03:01 PM
I think it would more end up encapsulating him in a stone sphere, rather than being a falling rock. Like quick drying cement or something,

I doubt it would be solid. Anyhow, how bad is a collapsed ceiling from low height? Take the bludgeoning damage and move on -- unless you're buried in rubble.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-26, 03:02 PM
I doubt it would be solid. Anyhow, how bad is a collapsed ceiling from low height? Take the bludgeoning damage and move on -- unless you're buried in rubble.

It's 10 cubic feet of solid stone. You need to cast Disintegrate just to get out of that. Can't do that when inside an AMF.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 03:10 PM
Maybe not nerf, but there sure are a lot of counters. Silence is the famous classic, plus dispel, nightmare, touch of idiocy and I'm sure a dozen other spells I'm forgetting. Beyond those there's losing your spell component pouch or holy symbol, getting your spellbook stolen, readied actions to disrupt with damage, other concentration checks from difficult circumstances (with DCs up to 29), grappling. And there are counters to counters, but they each take a major chunk of resources. And all that is ignoring the counters to specific spells and abilities. It can make things quite interesting. What I don't like is any special ability/feat/spell/etc. that says "Ha, I can stop that at hardly any cost and there's nothing you can do about it."

Oh, counters exist for everything. But feats and prcs ARE a significant investment. Going into IOT7V is an opportunity cost, but it is less painful than a non casting class.

Similar counters exist for all other counters. Concentration checks? Mostly easy to negate. Silence? Obvious counters exist in number.

AMF is nothing more than another such tactic. Its name is unfortunately misinterpreted as if it was a no-magic field. It's not, and it's obviously not intended to be.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-26, 03:33 PM
The idea the Orb spells can gt through an AMF is incredibly stupid. What do yo think is holding together this little ball of energy and propelling it, if not magic?

Any DM who lets that one slip by needs to paint "welcome" on his back and go lie down on th porch until he regains his senses.

Don't like the rules? House rule it. Doesn't change the fact that that's how the spells interact.

A DM who allows that is just a DM who's, you know, playing by the rules. Most DMs do.

Myou
2010-02-26, 03:54 PM
The idea the Orb spells can gt through an AMF is incredibly stupid. What do yo think is holding together this little ball of energy and propelling it, if not magic?

Any DM who lets that one slip by needs to paint "welcome" on his back and go lie down on th porch until he regains his senses.

Nothing is holding them together, or pulling them apart, they are as falling raindrops, the forces acting upon them propelling them without pulling them apart, requiring no supernatural effects. Both the rules of the game and of nature say it has to work, and disallowing it means completely rewriting AMF such that it blocks nonmagical effects. It's nonsensical and a horrible idea. If you don't like the orb spells just disallow them.

I know others have said this already, but someone ignoring the fundamental laws of physics and then trying to say it's everyone else who is stupid.... :smalltongue:

Zexion
2010-02-26, 04:25 PM
You could... wait, no, all of my ideas have been suggested already. Oops.

Gorbash
2010-02-26, 04:34 PM
You could pull the Tinfoil Hat trick: Shrink Item on a large cone and wear it as a hat. When the Antimagic field hits you, the Shrink is suppressed, the cone falls down around you, blocks line of effect and then you teleport away.

That's brilliant! :smallbiggrin: I'm so using that trick.


Nothing is holding them together, or pulling them apart, they are as falling raindrops

And you can throw a glob of water 75 ft? :smalltongue:

Myou
2010-02-26, 05:03 PM
That's brilliant! :smallbiggrin: I'm so using that trick.



And you can throw a glob of water 75 ft? :smalltongue:

Once you get it going it will keep going. Ever seen a water pistol? With enough force, evenly applied, you could indeed propel a ball of water 75ft.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-26, 05:09 PM
Momentum and inertia.

If you don't want to go by the rules, go by the physics. Don't want to go by the physics, go by the rules.

I'd love to hear the physics that justifies a ball of electric energy or pure fire, let alone how it would be propelled like a thrown rock. Even if you justifed acid as being made of physical matter, it would still lose it's orb form and just become a splatter as soon as it enters the field - ever try to throw a ball of water?

They're not even really instantaneous - they obviously exist in time from the period between they're created and their impact with their target - that's why they can miss.


Once you get it going it will keep going. Ever seen a water pistol? With enough force, evenly applied, you could indeed propel a ball of water 75ft.

That's not a ball of water, that's a stream of water - rather different than and Orb.


disallowing it means completely rewriting AMF such that it blocks nonmagical effects. It's nonsensical and a horrible idea. If you don't like the orb spells just disallow them.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Rewriting AMF? Banning orb spells? Why is that necessary in the slightest? I'm just talking about little common sense - despite some oddities in the wording of the rules, orbs are obviously magic and wouldn't work within a field that stops magic.

Look, the orb spells are badly written, and as other folks have pointed out they fit far more into the evocation category than conjuration. The instantaneous conjuration exception for AMF was obviously written with things like conjured rocks to drop into the field in mind, the sort of effects many posters have suggested to reach folks in the AMF. Orb spells came along later and obviously should be affected despite the wording of the spell.

Yeah, of course I can houserule it however I like - anyone can houserule anything. I just have a pet peeve against such rules-lawyering that defies really basic logic, especially when such silliness gains widespread currency in the wider gaming world via ye olde internets.

hiryuu
2010-02-26, 05:12 PM
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

Walk in and hit the wizard with a stick.

Gorbash
2010-02-26, 05:22 PM
Walk in and hit the wizard with a stick.

And what do you do if he's flying?

JonestheSpy
2010-02-26, 05:26 PM
And what do you do if he's flying?

If he's in an anti magic field, you mean "And what do you do if he's falling?" - the answer being, of course, hit him with the stick after he lands, if he's not dead already.

Myou
2010-02-26, 05:32 PM
That's not a ball of water, that's a stream of water - rather different than and Orb.

I have better things to do than argue physics with you, so I'll just say this;

It's a stream because the force is unevenly applied, that was the point - magic applies the force evenly so the spherical shape isn't distorted into s stream, and so after the magical effect ends you're left with a sphere flying toward the target. Air resistance will make it flatten out slightly, but other than that it will be unaffected by entering the AMF.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-26, 05:47 PM
I have better things to do than argue physics with you, so I'll just say this;

It's a stream because the force is unevenly applied, that was the point - magic applies the force evenly so the spherical shape isn't distorted into s stream, and so after the magical effect ends you're left with a sphere flying toward the target. Air resistance will make it flatten out slightly, but other than that it will be unaffected by entering the AMF.

Oh come on. The moment the magic is removed, the ball would begin to fall apart. You can make an argument for a splash effect when it enters the field, but that's about it.

Anyway, that's only a vague argument for acid orbs, not the others.

Myou
2010-02-26, 05:56 PM
Oh come on. The moment the magic is removed, the ball would begin to fall apart. You can make an argument for a splash effect when it enters the field, but that's about it.

Anyway, that's only a vague argument for acid orbs, not the others.

No, this is basic physics. No force is scattering the water - all the atoms were give the same velocity. If you can't get your head around that, try reading up on the topic. Either way, I'm out, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing about this.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-26, 06:12 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. Rewriting AMF? Banning orb spells? Why is that necessary in the slightest? I'm just talking about little common sense - despite some oddities in the wording of the rules, orbs are obviously magic and wouldn't work within a field that stops magic.

The instantaneous conjuration exception for AMF was obviously written with things like conjured rocks to drop into the field in mind, the sort of effects many posters have suggested to reach folks in the AMF. Orb spells came along later and obviously should be affected despite the wording of the spell.

First AMF suppresses magic, it doesn't stop it. Second after creation the orb is not magic, it may be unstable but it's moving at high speed towards a target, it only needs hit the target it doesn't need to be a sphere when it hits.

Got any evidence for the bit I added emphasis to? Normally exceptions are explicitly called out. If it weren't meant to operate within the field it would have a 1-round duration, a specific exception or not be a Conjuration (Creation) spell. The book it appeared in even had errata which did not "fix the problem".

Antimagic Field is obviously not meant to stop all magic, or even spells like the Orb spells. It's just easier to name it as an Antimagic Field than think up a more fitting name. Unfortunately some people think it is meant to stop anything magic from Elementals to spells called out as exceptions within the spell itself.

Just for the record applying "common sense" is still houseruling if it goes beyond the normal rules. It's not wrong to houserule, but it is better to know and accept that you are doing so. Magic kind of invalidates common sense in any case, particularly in a world where beasts the size of houses can fly even without magic and a person can survive being dunked in lava or a jumping off of multiple cliffs.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-26, 06:13 PM
They're not even really instantaneous - they obviously exist in time from the period between they're created and their impact with their target - that's why they can miss.

Wall of Iron is an instantaneous conjuration, too.

I'll let you work that one out.

(Hint: instantaneous spell effects can last indefinitely.)


If he's in an anti magic field, you mean "And what do you do if he's falling?" - the answer being, of course, hit him with the stick after he lands, if he's not dead already.

You can fly without magic, you know. Birds do it all the time.

Corey
2010-02-26, 08:21 PM
I have better things to do than argue physics with you, so I'll just say this;

It's a stream because the force is unevenly applied, that was the point - magic applies the force evenly so the spherical shape isn't distorted into s stream, and so after the magical effect ends you're left with a sphere flying toward the target. Air resistance will make it flatten out slightly, but other than that it will be unaffected by entering the AMF.

Correctomundo, and I used to be a physics major.

However, I'm much more dubious about the concept of an Orb of Fire. ;)

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-26, 08:37 PM
Correctomundo, and I used to be a physics major.

However, I'm much more dubious about the concept of an Orb of Fire. ;)

In the Elemental Plane of Fire, everything is made of fire.

Fire that you can swim through or walk on, depending on where it is.

In the D&D multiverse, fire can be a thing.

You should be more concerned about Orb of Cold.

Flickerdart
2010-02-26, 09:04 PM
If Fire is a thing, then an excessive absence of Fire is just as thing-like in nature. Remember, Fire and Electricity aren't reactions, they're elements. Just like you could scoop a handful of uranium and chuck it at your enemies, so can you with the four fundamental elements of the D&D multiverse.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-26, 09:11 PM
I once pwnt an AMF Cleric type with a bag full of shrunken boulders. That was funny...Cleric sees a little pouch falling towards him and laughs...Cleric is suddenly buried under several tons of rocks. Cleric makes a nice messy paste!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 10:59 PM
That's brilliant! :smallbiggrin: I'm so using that trick.

Hey, I suggested it first in the thread (though I didn't invent it).

A little credit?


I'd love to hear the physics that justifies a ball of electric energy or pure fire, let alone how it would be propelled like a thrown rock. Even if you justifed acid as being made of physical matter, it would still lose it's orb form and just become a splatter as soon as it enters the field - ever try to throw a ball of water?

The reason you can't throw a ball of water is that your hand is not capable of pushing on all the water at once. We don't have that problem here, since it's initially propelled by magic. Newton's First Law says that once it's moving, it will keep moving along the same vector unless acted on by a force. The first time it's acted on by a force is when it hits. So it wouldn't splatter upon hitting the AMF (it would upon hitting the target, though).


They're not even really instantaneous - they obviously exist in time from the period between they're created and their impact with their target - that's why they can miss.

The magic is instantaneous. It creates a blob of nonmagical fire/cold/acid/electricity/sound and chucks it.


That's not a ball of water, that's a stream of water - rather different than and Orb.

From a physics standpoint, no it's not.


I have no idea what you're talking about. Rewriting AMF? Banning orb spells? Why is that necessary in the slightest? I'm just talking about little common sense - despite some oddities in the wording of the rules, orbs are obviously magic and wouldn't work within a field that stops magic.

So you can't cast Orb spells inside an AMF. Noone's disputing that that I can see.

But once an Orb is created and propelled, it's nonmagical, so an AMF wouldn't stop it.


Look, the orb spells are badly written, and as other folks have pointed out they fit far more into the evocation category than conjuration. The instantaneous conjuration exception for AMF was obviously written with things like conjured rocks to drop into the field in mind, the sort of effects many posters have suggested to reach folks in the AMF. Orb spells came along later and obviously should be affected despite the wording of the spell.

No, actually they shouldn't. You're creating a blob of stuff (possibly contained in some way) and throwing it. Once it's thrown, it should stay on target despite an AMF. Your argument is equivalent to saying that if someone Fireballs a room, setting it on fire, and you then walk into the room with an AMF on, the fire would go out.

2xMachina
2010-02-27, 03:01 AM
No, actually they shouldn't. You're creating a blob of stuff (possibly contained in some way) and throwing it. Once it's thrown, it should stay on target despite an AMF. Your argument is equivalent to saying that if someone Fireballs a room, setting it on fire, and you then walk into the room with an AMF on, the fire would go out.

I now see fire brigades fireballing houses on fire, just so they can walk in with an AMF to stop the fire.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-27, 03:15 AM
Another technique if you're caught (for cleric) is to take cover behind a tower shield.

Total cover blocks LoE.

Anything that Blocks LoE can stop an emanation, such as AMF. From cover, teleport out.

Gorbash
2010-02-27, 04:48 AM
If he's in an anti magic field, you mean "And what do you do if he's falling?" - the answer being, of course, hit him with the stick after he lands, if he's not dead already.

You can only cast AMF on yourself. So how do you reach someone who's flying 50+ feet in the air?


You can fly without magic, you know. Birds do it all the time.

Well, when birds learn to cast AMF, I'll be worried.

Not many things have Ex flight, that's what I'm saying.

Corey
2010-02-27, 01:06 PM
.

Not many things have Ex flight, that's what I'm saying.

The character who set me off on starting this thread has a flying mount.

Hah. You know what could be Shrunk and carried around against the AMF eventuality? A very heavy net.

Doug Lampert
2010-02-27, 02:51 PM
The magic is instantaneous. It creates a blob of nonmagical fire/cold/acid/electricity/sound and chucks it.

The neat one is orb of FORCE. It creates a nonmagical sphere of pure magical force.

Note that the world should have millions of these little orbs of force, they're presumably nearly indestructable once created after all. They're force, and they're non-magical and their creation is instantaneous so they stick arround.

What does one do if I pick it up ten weeks after the spell was cast and hit someone with it? What if the target is ethereal? Force extends into the ethereal after all and this is an orb of nonmagical force.

For that matter why can't I store the acid from an acid orb and use it later. It's REAL NON-MAGICAL acid that does 15d6 damage if you splash it on someone. Same question for that elemental fire that makes up the orb of fire, it's nonmagical fire that keeps burning in the antimagic field despite not having any fuel, elemental fire doesn't need any fuel so that's consistent, and it doesn't go away with time since it was created instantanously and nothing is said about how fast it decays, so it should last about as well as a wall of iron (remember, it doesn't need fuel, so you can't claim it burns out).

You can play all sorts of games with the claim that the orbs are themselves nonmagical real substances, but THAT'S clearly and unquestionably what the spells claim, if you allow the source books that include the orb spells then you're allowing that all this is nonmagical stuff that can exist nonmagically. Little bits of acid that do 15d6 damage on a touch attack, elemental fire that does 15d6 on a touch attack, and balls of pure force.

DougL

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 02:56 PM
The spell that creates them also instantaneously lobs them at high speed at their targets. There's no way to save them for later.

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 03:09 PM
My explanation for orbs - they are low-sentience, highly volatile minor elementals pulled from their respective planes. Because they don't possess the sentience required to be creatures, this is not a Calling effect. But the magic involved in their creation has come and gone, explaining how they can exist in antimagic. They possess one instinct - to charge suicidally where the wizard points, instead of being thrown - this explains why they are a ranged touch attack, rather than a ranged attack as a thrown weapon would be. Upon contacting their target, they transfer their energy to it, ignoring armor, natural armor and shields in doing so (whether by conducting their energy through them, as with fire, cold and force, or by flowing around them, as with acid.) Their volatile nature explains why they do not still exist after impact, as with orbs of force and acid.

This explanation should address any inconsistency with the interaction of orbs and antimagic.

ericgrau
2010-02-27, 03:41 PM
Momentum and inertia.

If you don't want to go by the rules, go by the physics. Don't want to go by the physics, go by the rules.

Orb of electricity. Seriously. Electricity does not work that way! Orb of force. Orb of fire burning far hotter than any mundane fire without a fuel source. Orb of cold. Lol wut? At best you might have a ball of ice, which would be more bludgeoning than cold. Even at absolute zero the cold just wouldn't transfer very well. That's physics.

Even orb of acid falls apart. Some of them are stronger than the most concentrated mundane acid could possibly be. Heck stronger than total immersion in acid. And yet it doesn't bathe the target in acid (requiring a reflex save), it targets a point. As for elementals, yeah, that's a bit of a stretch.

Trying to justify the existence of orb of X spells without magic is a joke. They fail at believability and fail at balance with no SR, no save, a conjuration school and bypassing any protection against magic. They are one of a handful of things (not counting pun pun, infinite wishes and such) that any DM should ban without a second thought.

As for other counters againt AMF and other tactics in general, to gauge whether or not it's cheesy just ask whether or not it has significant cost, and how often is it successful? If you said "very little" and "almost always', then it's cheesy. If it's "a little" and "often" or weaker then it's a gray area that's up for interpretation. If the BBEG dies easily and almost regardless of rolls, then the game isn't even fun anymore.

Doug Lampert
2010-02-27, 03:42 PM
The spell that creates them also instantaneously lobs them at high speed at their targets. There's no way to save them for later.

And if the target is an acid proof flask? And this does not help AT ALL with the orb of force. It hits and then what? Hitting something doesn't damage a force thing AT ALL! Those force orbs should ALL still exist. Every one ever thrown! What is defined to destroy an orb of force?


My explanation for orbs - they are low-sentience, highly volatile minor elementals pulled from their respective planes. Because they don't possess the sentience required to be creatures, this is not a Calling effect. But the magic involved in their creation has come and gone, explaining how they can exist in antimagic. They possess one instinct - to charge suicidally where the wizard points, instead of being thrown - this explains why they are a ranged touch attack, rather than a ranged attack as a thrown weapon would be. Upon contacting their target, they transfer their energy to it, ignoring armor, natural armor and shields in doing so (whether by conducting their energy through them, as with fire, cold and force, or by flowing around them, as with acid.) Their volatile nature explains why they do not still exist after impact, as with orbs of force and acid.

This explanation should address any inconsistency with the interaction of orbs and antimagic.

There's nothing that says unintelligent doesn't need to be summoned or called like anything else. And what are these highly volitale creatures like when they're not being orbs? They have to ALREADY EXIST if you're calling them off the elemental planes. Why aren't they encountered when you travel there?

And since when do elemental creatures make touch attacks with their CALLER'S touch attack roll?

And now you've created force elementals! What happens if I summon one's non-volitale kin?

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 03:47 PM
More complaining about Orb spells

They are magically created. That doesn't mean they are magical.

Kylarra
2010-02-27, 03:49 PM
Strictly speaking what you actually have is nonmagical acid that happens to deal fire/electric/sonic/cold/force damage.


Think about that one. :smallamused:

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 03:51 PM
Strictly speaking what you actually have is nonmagical acid that happens to deal fire/electric/sonic/cold/force damage.


Think about that one. :smallamused:

This is, in fact, a literal reading of the spells. I love this reading of the spells.

Doug Lampert
2010-02-27, 03:53 PM
They are magically created. That doesn't mean they are magical.

Right. It's perfectly non-magical magical force. It's completely nonmagical acid doing more damage than nonmagical acid can do. It's ordinary fire burning without fuel so hot that being hit by a little blob of it does damage comparable to immersion in molten lava.

All completely non-magical once it's created.

So I can store that acid! I can collect those force orbs! I can use that fire to light my fortress! I can fill a moat with that nonmagical ball of lightning since it's "elemental" lightning that retains its shape and existence without magic.

Except none of that other stuff works, and when you ask why it doesn't work, the only solution people offer is "it's magic".

ericgrau
2010-02-27, 03:53 PM
They are magically created. That doesn't mean they are magical.

But trying make sense of their continued existence without magic makes head hurt. EDIT: Ninja'ed.

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 04:01 PM
There's nothing that says unintelligent doesn't need to be summoned or called like anything else.

There is precedent - the line between conjuration and evocation has always been thin and easily crossed, and orbs used to be evocation. In Tome of Magic page 109, they describe a wizard casting fireball as drawing energy from the Plane of Fire. Yet fireball is not a conjuration, nor is it intelligent.


And what are these highly volitale creatures like when they're not being orbs? They have to ALREADY EXIST if you're calling them off the elemental planes. Why aren't they encountered when you travel there?

Quite simply, they exist as their base elements - so low in sentience that they lack even individuality. The spell coalesces a bit of that element into a self-propelled projectile.


And since when do elemental creatures make touch attacks with their CALLER'S touch attack roll?

When he is the one that has to direct their line of attack. It's not a slam attack, it's a transference of the small amount of energy in the orb directly to its target. Once done, the orb can no longer exist - and the material it is formed of dissipates.


And now you've created force elementals! What happens if I summon one's non-volitale kin?

I see no reason why force can't be volatile. Once it has transferred its energy to the target by impact, how can it still exist as an orb? That would be creating energy - impossible even in magic.



Except none of that other stuff works, and when you ask why it doesn't work, the only solution people offer is "it's magic".

Don't assume that because you lack imagination, everyone else does too.

Jodo Krast
2010-02-27, 04:05 PM
You can simply use a Disjunction spell--but there is only a 1% chance per level of getting rid of an antimagic field with it. You could also use alchemical items and extraordinary abilities such as darkvision.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 04:07 PM
That would be creating energy - impossible even in magic.

...Er, what?

No, magic can create something from nothing. It's what (Creation) spells do.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-27, 04:16 PM
How about the Orbs contain a small amount of magic which calls them into being and they collapse into nothingness/are sent back when it runs out. It's inherent magic of the sort that ignores AMFs (a dragon's ability to fly, an elementals existence at all, etc.). That's not unbelievable, at least not particularly so.

You seem to be suggesting that anyone content with "it's magic", "a Wizard did it" (literally) or "Anti-Magic Field was not a very well designed spell, the Wizard making it could obviously only just cast it and wouldn't be able to use an orison if he got smacked in the face by a Cleric level" as explanations is doing it wrong. If you can't think of or accept any explanation, well that's up to you. You seem to be so intent on handwaving the rules, why not handwave the sense of it? It's MAGIC. It inherently breaks laws of physics, Nine Hells, Extraordinary abilities regularly break physics and common sense. Are you seriously saying that common sense should apply to magic when it clearly does not apply to Barbarians, Monks and Fighters of a reasonable level (level 2 or 3, even). This is just off the top of my head and in Core, BTW.

Please don't say that any DM should or shouldn't do something. If you wish to run worlds where a shallow and unreasonable common sense overrides the rules then that's your choice. I run rules over normal common sense, regardless of how blasphemous you may think that is.

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 04:50 PM
...Er, what?

No, magic can create something from nothing. It's what (Creation) spells do.

No, they convert spell energy into matter. It still isn't "something from nothing." Otherwise, you could make anything with minor creation, instead of being limited and having to resort to a higher-level spell to create the more complex materials.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 05:12 PM
No, they convert spell energy into matter. It still isn't "something from nothing." Otherwise, you could make anything with minor creation, instead of being limited and having to resort to a higher-level spell to create the more complex materials.

Uuh, what? Where do the rules or setting fluff ever reference 'spell energy'?

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 05:19 PM
Uuh, what? Where do the rules or setting fluff ever reference 'spell energy'?

Where do they explicitly say [Creation] spells come from nothing?

In fact:


Creation

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above).

If such spells are "manipulating matter" they can hardly be coming from nothing, as "nothing" isn't "matter." In fact, "nothing" is the very opposite of "matter."

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 05:22 PM
Nothing is not the opposite of matter. Anti-matter is the opposite of matter.

Nothing is just the absence of matter. :smallwink:

That still doesn't say where you got the notion of 'spell energy' from. Pointing out where I'm wrong (thank you, by the way) doesn't prove you right.

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 05:31 PM
That still doesn't say where you got the notion of 'spell energy' from.

You need it to [Create] things.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-27, 05:45 PM
You need it to [Create] things.

It's also what you lock into your mind when preparing spells. Spont. casters have a few specific/lots of similar "shapes" of spell energy. These "shapes" are what are prepared, they are also tweaked by metamagic feats. Kinda like a molecule's stucture and such determines its qualities (I think, with my limited knowledge of Chemistry I could be wrong on this).

This is all completely unbased in any evidence however, I'm just guessing, hopefully well.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 05:51 PM
You need it to [Create] things.

...Circular logic.

The fluff doesn't say anything about spell energy. The fact that spellcasters are limited to only a specific number of spells per day is immaterial - it doesn't have to have anything to do with energy requirements.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-27, 06:07 PM
...Circular logic.

The fluff doesn't say anything about spell energy. The fact that spellcasters are limited to only a specific number of spells per day is immaterial - it doesn't have to have anything to do with energy requirements.

It's completely a fluff thing. It gives a more full answer than "magic just breaks physics, 'cause it's magic", some people don't like that perfectly simple, short and easy-to-understand explanation for some reason so falling back to something like "spell energy" is useful. It also explains prepared and spontaneous casters as well as metamagic feats, or my interpretation of it does. Tell me if you'd like to see my interpretation, my post above gives a very basic idea though.

Corey
2010-02-27, 06:21 PM
Anti-matter is the opposite of matter.


Not in physics as we know it in our universe.

It's just a different kind of matter.

As for that distinction in the D&D world -- well, to quote W. S. Gilbert,

it doesn't matter, matter, matter, matter, matter, matter, matter, matter

absolmorph
2010-02-27, 06:33 PM
And what do you do if he's flying?
Have your fighter/monk drop on him.
Yes, I just suggested a monk. Unarmed attacks while in a grapple.
They fall to the ground (unless the AMF character is using Fly somehow or is really strong), and then have your other melee-buddies beat him down.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-27, 07:31 PM
Have your fighter/monk drop on him.
Yes, I just suggested a monk. Unarmed attacks while in a grapple.
They fall to the ground (unless the AMF character is using Fly somehow or is really strong), and then have your other melee-buddies beat him down.

How does the character in an AMF get to the flying one who isn't is the question asked I think. The point is that they don't, they activate the AMF after flying up with them. Unless they're using UMD to get the effect in the first place, or the enemy has contingencies against such an approach or otherwise has a way to stop you. Getting up to a caster with intent to use an AMF can be really hard if they're worth using it on.

Volkov
2010-02-27, 07:33 PM
Summon a squad of RA2 chrono legionnares and dodge any books your DM throws at you.

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 07:34 PM
...Circular logic.

The fluff doesn't say anything about spell energy. The fact that spellcasters are limited to only a specific number of spells per day is immaterial - it doesn't have to have anything to do with energy requirements.

You need magic to power a Conjuration [Creation] effect.
Magic is something, therefore it is not nothing.
Therefore, you cannot create something from nothing.

You are simply wrong.

In addition, there is reference to "spell energy" in fluff. Archmage's Spellfire ability specifically references it - spell slots contain spell energy when used to contain spells, and higher slots store more energy than lower ones, explaining why Spellfire using those slots does more damage. So you're wrong about that too.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 07:38 PM
Okay, I'll admit I was wrong then.

You actually cited something. Well done. Have a cookie. :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 07:43 PM
You actually cited something. Well done. Have a cookie. :smallwink:

*noms*

Ugh, pecans. *shakes fist*

faceroll
2010-02-27, 09:38 PM
Doesn't a Wall of Iron spell create a gazillion joules of energy? If you were to convert all that matter into energy, you would annihilate the planet or something like that. That's a lot of spell energy.

Optimystik
2010-02-27, 09:40 PM
Doesn't a Wall of Iron spell create a gazillion joules of energy?

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy) remember?

faceroll
2010-02-27, 11:07 PM
Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy) remember?

Unless you're using Conjuration [Creation].

absolmorph
2010-02-28, 12:12 AM
How does the character in an AMF get to the flying one who isn't is the question asked I think. The point is that they don't, they activate the AMF after flying up with them. Unless they're using UMD to get the effect in the first place, or the enemy has contingencies against such an approach or otherwise has a way to stop you. Getting up to a caster with intent to use an AMF can be really hard if they're worth using it on.
Ah, see, that's a different question entirely.
And the answer is a giant eagle.

tyckspoon
2010-02-28, 12:36 AM
Ah, see, that's a different question entirely.
And the answer is a giant eagle.

Fly up to the presumably-magically-flying target. Engulf him in your AMF. Watch him immediately drop 10 feet and resume flying as soon as that automatic movement takes him out of the AMF. Facepalm as you realize the futility of this particular tactic.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 12:44 AM
How far does someone fall in a turn? Some sort of Widened AMF could help fix that.

Beorn080
2010-02-28, 12:54 AM
Assuming objects could be enchanted with AMF, to produce such things as AMF prison cells, AMF arrow heads. Simply shoot a caster, and watch em fall. Best part, since the AMF is projected around the arrow, the caster loses all magical protection before being hit with it. The tinfoil hat could protect against it, but with an adamatium tip being the source of the AMF, it should hold in the hat.

Just gotta figure out how to wack that hat.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 12:57 AM
Assuming objects could be enchanted with AMF, to produce such things as AMF prison cells, AMF arrow heads. Simply shoot a caster, and watch em fall. Best part, since the AMF is projected around the arrow, the caster loses all magical protection before being hit with it. The tinfoil hat could protect against it, but with an adamatium tip being the source of the AMF, it should hold in the hat.

Just gotta figure out how to wack that hat.
That's already a strategy with Arcane Archers, except Wind Wall makes archery suck. It does defeat the tinfoil hat, but nobody takes Arcane Archer.

Beorn080
2010-02-28, 01:00 AM
I'm talking about a permanent AMF effect, similar to such used in prison cells, not using spell storage to cast an AMF on the target of the arrow.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 01:57 AM
I'm talking about a permanent AMF effect, similar to such used in prison cells, not using spell storage to cast an AMF on the target of the arrow.
That would be entirely within the realm of DM fiat and not much else.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-28, 02:12 AM
Props to Optymystik and Scion for coming up with coherent reasons why Orb spells would get through AMF's instead of trying to justify really absurd physics. Some of the responses reminded me of arguments out of Knights of the Dinner Table strips...Really though, I think they're pretty obviously magic that exists in time, and therefore subject to AMF's. I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept "Whoops, the designers kind of booped up there" and adjust accordingly, especially when dealing with optional sourcebooks tacked on to rules written long before.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:02 AM
Really absurd physics?

So if you propel something so each molecule is given the same force (through magic), it won't remain cohesive until striking something?

That's news to me.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-28, 03:04 AM
Props to Optymystik and Scion for coming up with coherent reasons why Orb spells would get through AMF's instead of trying to justify really absurd physics. Some of the responses reminded me of arguments out of Knights of the Dinner Table strips...Really though, I think they're pretty obviously magic that exists in time, and therefore subject to AMF's. I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept "Whoops, the designers kind of booped up there" and adjust accordingly, especially when dealing with optional sourcebooks tacked on to rules written long before.

I see your implication. I don't like it.

Da'Shain
2010-02-28, 03:45 AM
Props to Optymystik and Scion for coming up with coherent reasons why Orb spells would get through AMF's instead of trying to justify really absurd physics. Some of the responses reminded me of arguments out of Knights of the Dinner Table strips...Really though, I think they're pretty obviously magic that exists in time, and therefore subject to AMF's. I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept "Whoops, the designers kind of booped up there" and adjust accordingly, especially when dealing with optional sourcebooks tacked on to rules written long before.Conversely, I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept, "Whoops, I guess the rules of magic might be a little different than I thought they were," and adjust accordingly.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:46 AM
Conversely, I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept, "Whoops, I guess the rules of magic might be a little different than I thought they were," and adjust accordingly.

Or even "Whoops, I guess I don't know the laws of physics as well as I thought I did".

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 04:22 AM
Really absurd physics?

So if you propel something so each molecule is given the same force (through magic), it won't remain cohesive until striking something?

That's news to me.

Well, then post it on CNN. Many forces act on each molecule, and no two are acted on exactly identically. Air resistance, friction, and the like. Even lasers (which are affected much less by atmospheric diffusion than matter) don't remain coherent for very long. It's one of the chief challenges in a earth to space laser.

Liquids have surface tension that helps to hold them together, but an object that moves 200 feet in 3 seconds is moving about 45 miles an hour. The wind resistance at that speed is more than capable of powering through any surface tension that exists, and begin scattering.

Are the orb spells implausibly made? Perhaps.

Do they function in an AMF? By RAW, yes. That's the end of that discussion.
Whether or not you think they SHOULD is another story. That's a matter of personal opinion. But the fact remains, by the general standard, it's a valid answer.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-28, 04:26 AM
Really absurd physics?

So if you propel something so each molecule is given the same force (through magic), it won't remain cohesive until striking something?

That's news to me.

Maybe it would remain retain its shape in a zero-gravity vacuum once the magic is removed, that's about it.

Anyway, apologies if anyone has taken this personally, as some folks seem to have.

Edit: ninja's on physics.

It boils down to RAW vs RAI, and the personal level of tolerance of a DM for badly written rules of which a game with as much material as 3.5, written by many authors over years, is inevitably going to have a certain amount of. And yes, what constitutes a badly written rule is a matter of opinion, and I've given mine.

Corey
2010-02-28, 04:26 AM
Well, then post it on CNN. Many forces act on each molecule, and no two are acted on exactly identically. Air resistance, friction, and the like. Even lasers (which are affected much less by atmospheric diffusion than matter) don't remain coherent for very long. It's one of the chief challenges in a earth to space laser.

Liquids have surface tension that helps to hold them together, but an object that moves 200 feet in 3 seconds is moving about 45 miles an hour. The wind resistance at that speed is more than capable of powering through any surface tension that exists, and begin scattering.

Are the orb spells implausibly made? Perhaps.

Do they function in an AMF? By RAW, yes. That's the end of that discussion.
Whether or not you think they SHOULD is another story. That's a matter of personal opinion. But the fact remains, by the general standard, it's a valid answer.

Actually, I would guess that a ball of liquid, if it started out as same, would all more or less hit the target it was hurtling toward, the factors you mentioned notwithstanding.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 04:30 AM
Maybe it would remain retain its shape in a zero-gravity vacuum once the magic is removed, that's about it.

Anyway, apologies if anyone has taken this personally, as some folks seem to have.

It has ten feet to travel once it enters the AMF.

Twenty if the caster wasted metamagic on it.

And, really, it doesn't need to retain perfect cohesion. It just has to travel in vaguely the right direction. It wouldn't scatter all over the place.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 04:31 AM
Actually, I would guess that a ball of liquid, if it started out as same, would all more or less hit the target it was hurtling toward, the factors you mentioned notwithstanding.

Depends on distance traveled. As the globules seperate, more total surface area is exposed to wind resistance, scattering farther and farther, and travelling slower and slower.

Once the breakup process begins, it's a very short matter of time (and distance) before you have a mist that has very little, if any, force. Why? Because force transference (wind resistance) happens against the air, and the more it scatters, the faster it happens.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 04:34 AM
It has ten feet to travel once it enters the AMF.

Twenty if the caster wasted metamagic on it.

And, really, it doesn't need to retain perfect cohesion. It just has to travel in vaguely the right direction. It wouldn't scatter all over the place.

Magic isn't holding it cohesive at any point. The spell is instantaneous. The spell may create an orb, and may create it moving quickly. Beyond that, by RAW, it's nonmagical. So it has whatever the distance between the caster and the target is.

Myou
2010-02-28, 04:38 AM
Actually, I would guess that a ball of liquid, if it started out as same, would all more or less hit the target it was hurtling toward, the factors you mentioned notwithstanding.

This. I can't belive that anyone knows so little about physics that they're still arguing the point. :smallsigh:

Corey
2010-02-28, 04:48 AM
Depends on distance traveled. As the globules seperate, more total surface area is exposed to wind resistance, scattering farther and farther, and travelling slower and slower.

Once the breakup process begins, it's a very short matter of time (and distance) before you have a mist that has very little, if any, force. Why? Because force transference (wind resistance) happens against the air, and the more it scatters, the faster it happens.

We're talking about something that is traveling in six seconds or less.

The ball can easily turn into more of a stream in that time, but I doubt it would get so turbulent as for the majority of the liquid to miss the target.

Corey
2010-02-28, 04:49 AM
Here's one analogy -- raindrops blown sideways by strong winds are still identifiable strings of water.

If you live in a dry climate, however, you may have to just take my word for that. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 05:20 AM
Here's one analogy -- raindrops blown sideways by strong winds are still identifiable strings of water.

If you live in a dry climate, however, you may have to just take my word for that. :smallbiggrin:

Here's another. When firefighters drop water on a fire from 200-400 feet up, It leaves a bucket. By the time it hits the ground, it's a cloud.


We're talking about something that is traveling in six seconds or less.

The ball can easily turn into more of a stream in that time, but I doubt it would get so turbulent as for the majority of the liquid to miss the target.
As for travelling in 6 seconds or less? Time is less a factor than distance. The simple question is: How much air must be displaced? As it disperses, each foot of travel exposes more surface area to air than the foot before it. Thus, each foot travelled causes more dispersion than the foot before it. Air resistance is an exponential formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_resistance) ( specifically F(d)=0.5P(v^2)C(d)A ). Greater speed increases the force acting on the object exponentially, while the speed increases in a linear method. Translation: Higher speed means exponentially faster dispersion, even though distance travelled only increases in a linear fashion. This means that with more speed, you get LESS total distance before dispersion totally diffuses the liquid.

Trust me champ, there's a reason that super soakers have a 40 foot range, and pellet guns hit over a hundred. Liquid is an exceptionally poor medium for firing as a projectile, when there's an atmosphere. The faster you push the water, the more force it transfers to the air.

This is the same phenomena that determines that after a certain amount of gunpowder, a cannon ball will go no farther. More gunpowder won't make it go any farther.

Greater speed = exponentially greater force. exponentially Greater force = exponentially greater resistance. exponentially Greater resistance = exponentially greater dispersion. They all correlate.

But if you're not intimately familiar with physics, you'll have to take my word for it.

Corey
2010-02-28, 06:29 AM
Hmm.

1. A "cloud" would still be a lot like a hit for D&D purposes.
2. The initial velocity of the water in the firefighter example is not high.
3. Your links didn't really say anything about dispersion. This is probably because they assumed a solid object traveling through a fluid (assuming that the fluid/gas distinction isn't important here), rather than a fluid passing through a fluid.
4. I have no doubt that the dispersion per unit of time is higher for a fast moving ball of water than for a slow-moving one. But you haven't yet shown an argument why the dispersion per unit of distance traveled should be higher. I imagine you're saying something like the total force applied to trying to get it to disperse is exponential in -- well, I'm not totally sure in what.

Please spell it out for me in small words, or alphabet blocks, and approximate it in calculus of a single variable if you can. I haven't taught a calculus class, nor taken a physics one, since the 1970s. I couldn't state Stokes' Theorem on a bet, and the same goes for Green's. Senility is settling in.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-28, 06:35 AM
Depends on distance traveled. As the globules seperate, more total surface area is exposed to wind resistance, scattering farther and farther, and travelling slower and slower.

Once the breakup process begins, it's a very short matter of time (and distance) before you have a mist that has very little, if any, force. Why? Because force transference (wind resistance) happens against the air, and the more it scatters, the faster it happens.

Except it doesn't matter if it has any force. In fact, it has very little force to start with, as made obvious by the lack of bludgeoning damage.

Corey
2010-02-28, 06:45 AM
Except it doesn't matter if it has any force. In fact, it has very little force to start with, as made obvious by the lack of bludgeoning damage.

Not terribly relevant.

But here's something that IS relevant:

The ball of acid isn't traveling, say, 75' without magical containment.

It's traveling 10' without containment -- the radius of the AMF.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 06:52 AM
Hmm.

1. A "cloud" would still be a lot like a hit for D&D purposes.
2. The initial velocity of the water in the firefighter example is not high.
3. Your links didn't really say anything about dispersion. This is probably because they assumed a solid object traveling through a fluid (assuming that the fluid/gas distinction isn't important here), rather than a fluid passing through a fluid.
4. I have no doubt that the dispersion per unit of time is higher for a fast moving ball of water than for a slow-moving one. But you haven't yet shown an argument why the dispersion per unit of distance traveled should be higher. I imagine you're saying something like the total force applied to trying to get it to disperse is exponential in -- well, I'm not totally sure in what.

Please spell it out for me in small words, or alphabet blocks, and approximate it in calculus of a single variable if you can. I haven't taught a calculus class, nor taken a physics one, since the 1970s. I couldn't state Stokes' Theorem on a bet, and the same goes for Green's. Senility is settling in.

Simple.

Basic Physics:

Force grows exponentially as speed grows linearly.

This means that if you double speed, you quadruple force.

So, if an object moving at 50 feet per second has 100 units of force?
the same object moving at 100 feet per second has 400 units of force.

Both are moving 200 feet.

The first will cover the distance in 4 seconds, and will experience 100 units of force that will affect dispersion.

The second will cover the distance in 2 seconds, but will experience 400 units of force that will affect dispersion.

Force per foot traveled for the first? is 0.5 units.
Force per foot travelled for the second? is 2.0 units.

In other words, the object moving at higher speed encounters quadruple the wind resistance, while only halving the time taken. This yields a growth of dispersion that is greater than the increase in speed. This touches also (in more advanced physics) on terminal velocity.

This is why high speed craft must be built much more soundly than lower ones. It's to prevent the object from getting torn apart by the greatly increased forces acting on it.

As for solid vs liquid? the reason not all principles are reflected in the site I linked for liquid moving through air is that the level of complexity in an exponentially growing dispersion effect is such that it takes advanced computers to model and predict it. It's about as far removed from basic physics as trigonometry is from arithmatic.


Except it doesn't matter if it has any force. In fact, it has very little force to start with, as made obvious by the lack of bludgeoning damage.
Well, velocity is measurably high (45mph or higher), so if the force is light, we can assume the mass is light. If that's the case, resistance will have an even more pronounced effect, and it'll stop/disperse faster.

For evidence? Try throwing a ping pong ball and a golf ball. See which you can chuck farther.

Not terribly relevant.

But here's something that IS relevant:

The ball of acid isn't traveling, say, 75' without magical containment.

It's traveling 10' without containment -- the radius of the AMF.
Incorrect. From the moment that the orb leaves the caster's hand, it's without magical containment. Why? Because the duration of the spell is instantaneous. The magic is over the instant the orb exists. So, if the orb is, in any way, moving?

There is no magical containment.

The orb moves from the caster to the target.
Therefore, there is no magical containment from the caster, to the target.

Volthawk
2010-02-28, 10:33 AM
Corey, for the game, Orbs can go through an AMF, okay?

Tar Palantir
2010-02-28, 10:39 AM
Incorrect. From the moment that the orb leaves the caster's hand, it's without magical containment. Why? Because the duration of the spell is instantaneous. The magic is over the instant the orb exists. So, if the orb is, in any way, moving?

There is no magical containment.

The orb moves from the caster to the target.
Therefore, there is no magical containment from the caster, to the target.

Then it entering an AMF should have no difference, as it is without magical containment both before and after crossing the edge of the field, and nothing else is changed by the presence of the AMF.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-28, 05:36 PM
Really absurd physics?

So if you propel something so each molecule is given the same force (through magic), it won't remain cohesive until striking something?

That's news to me.

I see no particular reason why a ball of burning material or a glob of acid wouldn't stay as such without magical containment. That covers orb of fire and acid. Orb of force is slightly more problematic, but hell, force spells have aways ignored defensive stuff.

Everyone using water as a comparison...how do you know the acid has the properties of water? It could be much less fluid, yknow....A ball of say, jello is still relatively squishy, but you could drop that from essentially any height, and it'd stay in ball shape till it hit the ground.

I see no particular reason why the orbs can't work exactly as the rules describe.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 05:38 PM
Then it entering an AMF should have no difference, as it is without magical containment both before and after crossing the edge of the field, and nothing else is changed by the presence of the AMF.

By RAW, you're correct.

Others wanted to bring in flawed ideas of physics. I was pointing out the correct versions, to further illustrate that how it works in D&D is not how it works IRL.


I see no particular reason why a ball of burning material or a glob of acid wouldn't stay as such without magical containment. That covers orb of fire and acid. Orb of force is slightly more problematic, but hell, force spells have aways ignored defensive stuff.

Everyone using water as a comparison...how do you know the acid has the properties of water? It could be much less fluid, yknow....A ball of say, jello is still relatively squishy, but you could drop that from essentially any height, and it'd stay in ball shape till it hit the ground.

I see no particular reason why the orbs can't work exactly as the rules describe.

Because it's not free falling. It's shearing through the air at speeds around 45 MPH. Take a handful of jello, and stick it outside the window of your car as you drive at 45 mph. It won't stay together.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-28, 05:42 PM
Because it's not free falling. It's shearing through the air at speeds around 45 MPH. Take a handful of jello, and stick it outside the window of your car as you drive at 45 mph. It won't stay together.

Air resistance isn't really much of an issue at 45mph. Jello will happily stay together at that speed. Given that terminal velocity > 45 mph, I don't know how you can draw the conclusion that it will survive the first, but not the second.

Beorn080
2010-02-28, 05:46 PM
The orbs are balls of frozen whatever that instantly sublimates when it hits a target.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-28, 05:55 PM
The orbs are balls of frozen whatever that instantly sublimates when it hits a target.

For cold, that works. Fire, probably not so much.

I always presume that flying fire involves throwing something that's burning, given that this works much better from a physics point of view. A burning, sticky glob of oil or some such.

Of course, given that this is a system where a ball of acid is both more dangerous and more difficult to make than an arrow of acid, it's probably best not to think about the details too much.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 06:00 PM
Air resistance isn't really much of an issue at 45mph. Jello will happily stay together at that speed. Given that terminal velocity > 45 mph, I don't know how you can draw the conclusion that it will survive the first, but not the second.

Because vertical free fall exerts less forces from less directions. Horizontal movement also contends with gravity.

And no, jello won't.

Further, nothing in the spell description states that it's a colloid (as jello is, rather than the gel you imply). Acids do not exist in a colloidal state, and nothing in the spell description implies this.

There are some acids that are powders, and some that are solids, IRL. That doesn't change that the acid releases vapors (spell description). Acids only release vapors in one of two states. Liquid, or Gas.

And liquid or gas would both disperse.

In other words: Physics and D&D do not agree in this instance. It is not describable, in the same way that an arrow, shot by someone with far shot, can fire down a 1foot by 1foot corridor, horizontally, 1800 feet, without any parabolic path at all. D&D does not follow all laws of physics.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 06:02 PM
Maybe its frozen acid that rapidly sublimates in the air as it streaks along.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 06:04 PM
Maybe its frozen acid that rapidly sublimates in the air as it streaks along.

Nothing states it is such. That may work for an orb of cold, but what about an orb of fire?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-28, 06:10 PM
Gravity as a force is mostly irrelevant if the speed is fast enough. And hey, it's magic, so there's no particular reason to worry about exactly how fast the orb moves. Sure, in real life, uneven acceleration would pose huge problems, but it's pretty clear that the acceleration is magical. I mean...you're not chucking a ball of fire with your hand unless magic is involved somehow.

Jello was used as an example. Not saying that orbs actually ARE exactly like jello, merely that the spell description is not sufficient to pin down the characteristics of the orb itself to enough detail to really allow us to state that it just isn't possible.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 06:33 PM
Gravity as a force is mostly irrelevant if the speed is fast enough. And hey, it's magic, so there's no particular reason to worry about exactly how fast the orb moves. Sure, in real life, uneven acceleration would pose huge problems, but it's pretty clear that the acceleration is magical. I mean...you're not chucking a ball of fire with your hand unless magic is involved somehow.Actually, the travel from A to B, by RAW, has precisely nothing to do with magic. From the instant the orb exists to the instant it hits the target, there is no magical effect being generated by the spell. That is what an instantaneous duration conjuration means. Magic is involved in the creation and the initial velocity of the object, not in continued sustaining of that velocity. Thus, the motion of the object cannot be at a constant velocity.

Further, "gravity as a force"? Wrong. First, gravity is not a force. It measures the attraction of objects to one another. And it's not "mostly irrelevant". All objects (heavier than the medium they reside in) IRL will follow a parabolic path when initially imbued with force, in the presence of gravity. For an object to move 1800 feet before it falls 11 inches? It would need to be travelling approximately 20,500 miles per hour (or around Mach 30).

So, that's what "fast enough" to render gravity "mostly irrelevant" for the purposes of my example are. For your statement to have any validity, that would need to be the speed of a launched arrow. If arrows move slower than mach 30? Then physics and D&D don't match up.

For an orb with a 200 foot reach to do the same (which is RAW legal), it would need to be travelling about 2250 mph (Around mach 4).


Jello was used as an example. Not saying that orbs actually ARE exactly like jello, merely that the spell description is not sufficient to pin down the characteristics of the orb itself to enough detail to really allow us to state that it just isn't possible.
Yeah, you're not saying much of anything that has an actual RAW basis.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 06:48 PM
Every object experiences gravity, sure, but gravity is a wimp.

The Earth has a mass of 6 x 10^24 kilograms. You can exert enough force with your legs to overcome the the gravity of the planet.

Beorn080
2010-02-28, 06:52 PM
An orb of fire is a block of thermite that sparks and ignites when it hits.

Corey
2010-02-28, 06:52 PM
Simple.

Basic Physics:

Force grows exponentially as speed grows linearly.

This means that if you double speed, you quadruple force.

So, if an object moving at 50 feet per second has 100 units of force?
the same object moving at 100 feet per second has 400 units of force.

Both are moving 200 feet.

The first will cover the distance in 4 seconds, and will experience 100 units of force that will affect dispersion.

The second will cover the distance in 2 seconds, but will experience 400 units of force that will affect dispersion.

Force per foot traveled for the first? is 0.5 units.
Force per foot travelled for the second? is 2.0 units.

In other words, the object moving at higher speed encounters quadruple the wind resistance, while only halving the time taken. This yields a growth of dispersion that is greater than the increase in speed. This touches also (in more advanced physics) on terminal velocity.

You still haven't answered my question. More precisely, you have (perhaps because you're oversimplifying) given an argument AGAINST your own position.

You're evidently asserting that 4x the force exercised in 1/2x the time has more effect than 1x the force executed in 1x the time. In other words, you seem to be asserting that 4F(.5t)^2 is something different from and indeed much greater than Ft^2. And that would be of course nonsense.

If your underlying point does happen to be correct, it's because of second-order effects you haven't bothered to explain yet.

As for your claim that it's incorrect for gravity to be regarded as a force -- that's beyond hair-splitting, and I say this as somebody whose copy of Mizner, Thorne, and Wheeler's seminal text on Gravitation is still within eyeshot, 34 years after I took a class based on it. If an object is subject to gravitational acceleration there is a force on it that would not be present if it weren't subject to gravitational acceleration. If you want to use Newtonian/classical mechanics at any point in the conversation, then it is also correct in the same conversation to say there is a force of gravity.

Noodles2375
2010-02-28, 06:55 PM
Power laws are not exponential.

F(v) = A*v^b where 'n' is a constant is a power law.

F(v) = A*b^v where 'b' is again a constant is an exponential.

These do not look or behave the same way.

Corey
2010-02-28, 06:56 PM
Incorrect. From the moment that the orb leaves the caster's hand, it's without magical containment. Why? Because the duration of the spell is instantaneous. The magic is over the instant the orb exists. So, if the orb is, in any way, moving?

There is no magical containment.

The orb moves from the caster to the target.
Therefore, there is no magical containment from the caster, to the target.

Perhaps you've forgotten that the RAW acknowledge how approximate the descriptions of elapsed time are. For example, people act in strict initiative order and yet act simultaneously, and you won't have to look far to see that acknowledged.

penbed400
2010-02-28, 06:58 PM
That would be entirely within the realm of DM fiat and not much else.

Resetting Sculpted (Tome and Blood) Anti-magic field trap (Stronghold Builder's Guide) that casts itself once every CL/minutes after it's started.Then just have it sculpted for four 10' cubes which could affect four different 10' cube cells. Is that possible? Shouldn't be too expensive I'd imagine. It doesn't mention how its shaped either. I'd imagine a magic trap could be done in multiple ways. Maybe even just an inscribing. Inscribe the trap on the arrow, then you have a basically permanent antimagic arrow. At least....I think so.

absolmorph
2010-02-28, 07:04 PM
Fly up to the presumably-magically-flying target. Engulf him in your AMF. Watch him immediately drop 10 feet and resume flying as soon as that automatic movement takes him out of the AMF. Facepalm as you realize the futility of this particular tactic.
No, see, you fly ABOVE him and dive bomb him, then jump off your eagle and grapple him. You fall to the ground* as you pummel the snot out of him.

*Due to the damage taken as part of this plan, this should only be done by those who are fairly durable, such as Fighters or Barbarians.

Corey
2010-02-28, 07:18 PM
Power laws are not exponential.

F(v) = A*v^b where 'n' is a constant is a power law.

F(v) = A*b^v where 'b' is again a constant is an exponential.

These do not look or behave the same way.

You might want to go back and fix the b vs. n typo. ;)

Petrocorus
2010-03-01, 11:43 AM
and being able to make your own demiplane with whatever time trait you want is fine,

How do you do this?



No, this is basic physics. No force is scattering the water - all the atoms were give the same velocity. If you can't get your head around that, try reading up on the topic.

No force? What about Weight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight)? And wind resistance? For an orb of acid, i mean. Electromagnetic forces for an electric orb would tear it apart almost instantaneously and pure fire cannot exist without magic. The sound is a vibration of the air, how could the sound not spread away as a normal sound as soon as magic stop keeping it in an orb form.


By RAW, you're correct.

Others wanted to bring in flawed ideas of physics. I was pointing out the correct versions, to further illustrate that how it works in D&D is not how it works IRL.


By RAW, maybe but, by RAW, in an AMF, doesn't the Laws of Physic overrules the Laws of Magic?



They're not even really instantaneous - they obviously exist in time from the period between they're created and their impact with their target - that's why they can miss.


Actually, you can, at least you're supposed to be able to miss, since the spell require a ranged touch attack.

But enough talk of the orb, a spell that create a solid material range attack like the "ice knife" or "ice lance" spell, would it work normally? What about "Whirlwind Blade"? The inertia could allow it to work. Or at least to go through the AMF?

Tyndmyr
2010-03-01, 12:13 PM
By RAW, maybe but, by RAW, in an AMF, doesn't the Laws of Physic overrules the Laws of Magic?

Well, that's a simplification. The spell itself doesn't actually say that. In fact, it lists a ton of exceptions.

So, trying to figure out how to get rid of orbs working in an AMF has a complete lack of RAW justification.

AMF even says that prismatic wall works in it. How can you possibly square that with the idea that physics are king?

Optimystik
2010-03-01, 12:35 PM
Unless you're using Conjuration [Creation].

Still no, because you're just converting it from one form (spell energy) to another (matter), as I had just explained to Yuki_Akuma.

Rejakor
2010-03-30, 12:43 AM
On: Magic.


A lot of people are entirely happy to have magic perform conflicting actions, have conflicting rules, and be subject to conflicting restrictions. Furthermore, they like to explain conflicts in the gameworld between things like human psychology in the game and real world, physics, sociology, architecture, and all the other signs of a lack of imagination.

That is stupid, and takes away from any world where it's used. Worlds feel real when they are internally consistent. Magic is a powerful force in any fantasy world where it is used, even if it is weaker than swinging a sword, or is very rare. The mystique of magic is in many ways what makes fantasy fantasy. And if you can't believe in that magic because it's done stupidly.. that's bad. Magic should not make sense, but be believable. That means that it should have reasons as to why it can do some things and not others, and those reasons should link up and be consistent. Considering we're talking about a godlike force that uses as it's medium the sentient minds - the single most powerful computing devices designed to date, with entirely heuristically designed programming, entirely non-optimized; So yeah, sure, it can be complex. But just passing off everything you're too stupid/lazy to think about and come to a solution for as 'magic' - demeans the setting, the world, and the potential of magic itself as a narrative tool and device.

On: Orbs.


Orbs are collections of nonmagical chemicals and rare substances (uranium-twothreewhat?) with various methods to maintain consistent orb-shape in conditions up to and approaching black-hole levels of divisive force. Upon touching a critical mass of any form of non-gaseous matter the semisentient organic processor clusters in the orb trigger an instantaneous reaction that deals a certain amount of damage and consumes all the materials used to construct the orb.

Orbs are a tiny volatile subspecies of elemental that is normally invisible but is 'powered up' by the spell, lasting only six seconds before burning out due to the increased energy, the 'burning out' transferring the non-magical elemental energy onto/into the target struck by the orb. Force elementals exist but are too small for the eye to see in their natural state.

Orbs are solid forms of elements that are even normally in a liquid or gaseous state (cold, fire, electricity) that are quite heavy but very delicate. When striking a solid object (or being subjected to atmospheric resistance comparable to striking a surface) they shatter, sublimating into their normal form and striking one point(the point of impact) with the accumulated energy before dispersing into the atmosphere.

Note how these descriptions gel with what the spell says it does, make sense under physics, and also work with a larger universal system of magic?

So why would you assume that your version (wobbly big ball of liquid flung slowly and deforming in the air into a spray cloud in a way the spell and rules say it doesn't) is correct?

bachigai
2010-03-30, 04:45 AM
Note how these descriptions gel with what the spell says it does, make sense under physics, and also work with a larger universal system of magic?

So why would you assume that your version (wobbly big ball of liquid flung slowly and deforming in the air into a spray cloud in a way the spell and rules say it doesn't) is correct?

Well, for starters, not everyone says all of that. Some are saying that some of the orbs are liquids, some are saying or at least implying that it's just energy or unspecified-state matter. Those who are talking about speed are saying that it's actually travelling quite fast. And those who are saying it should lose cohesion are the one's saying that the rules are stupid, in one way or another (either in regards to AMF or just "D&D and physics don't go together"). Was there anyone specific you directed that to? Otherwise it seems you've attempted to cast Mass Transmute Person to Strawman in your argument.

As to why I would assume "their version[s]" are (more) correct, it's because they rely on far fewer assumptions. Your explanations rely on applied phlebotinum (unknowable nonmagical substances within the reach of mages that conveniently do exactly what you want in your explanation and absolutely nothing else... hey those chemicals sound a lot like something called "magic"... oh but it's not somehow...), an odd, unofficial speculation about elementals, and the third one doesn't actually make sense under physics (at least not for all the types of orb, which is what the exercise is here). Theirs on the other hand generally works around what is written in various D&D sourcebooks, and/or what we understand about matter/energy, specific properties of matter/energy, and the interaction of various forces/whatever on matter/energy. I haven't counted, but they seem to be working on less assumptions.

You can justify just about anything as being physically possible if you make enough assumptions. But the idea of scientifically explaining aspects of D&D (or examining their RAW-viability) is to make as few assumptions as possible, work with what we actually know about physics as much as possible, and bend Occam's razor out of shape as *little* as possible. And you know what, it's kind of interesting and fun to do this--stretching our intellectual legs and examining the game from a different perspective than "Here are rules. Follow them". It seems like you're calling quite a few people "stupid", and saying that they lack imagination, just because they think differently from you. It's only stupid and bad if their beliefs prevent others (or themselves I suppose) from having fun--you can't really tell them how they should receive their fantasy.

In this case, the simplest explanation, in my humble opinion, is that "orb spells still work in an AMF" is an unintended loophole, to simply be houseruled out. To me it's just not internally consistent, and it doesn't work for me. I can make the assumption of an uncorrected error in the books (It wouldn't be the only one in there) more easily than I can assume that against all I know about physics, these orbs are all unfailingly of a nonmagical nature.


OT, how to foil antimagic fields: get a beholder to eat the mount. Or the rider. Or both.

...Easier said than done but it would actually work. It's basically just "if they have a flying creature, get a bigger flying creature".

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-30, 06:14 AM
Dudes. In D&D, acid is an ENERGY TYPE in the same way electricity is.

Presumably the tiny-but-sharp tetrahedrons that compose acid energy are able to resist impacting the constant flow of tiny spheres that compose elemental wind.


And matter isn't conserved. Just look at the crafting rules, and turn 1 gp into 3 gp.

That said, the multiverse is infinite with a nonzero average density, so matter, energy, and kittens can be said to be conserved insofar as you can have a 1-to-1 mapping between any state of them at any given time.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-30, 06:15 AM
RAW, orb spells work in AMF. Period.

Assuming this is a problem for you, consider this: there is a Wotc splat (PHII IIRC) introducing dual schools.

Keep the orbs that way, but declare them dual Evocation/Conjuration. This keep them powerful, but removes the AMF problem.

(i.e., Conjuration creates them but Evocation fuels them, so no magic no orb).

magic9mushroom
2010-03-30, 10:01 PM
RAW, orb spells work in AMF. Period.

Assuming this is a problem for you, consider this: there is a Wotc splat (PHII IIRC) introducing dual schools.

Keep the orbs that way, but declare them dual Evocation/Conjuration. This keep them powerful, but removes the AMF problem.

(i.e., Conjuration creates them but Evocation fuels them, so no magic no orb).

No, it wouldn't keep them powerful, because now you lose them if you ban Evocation.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-31, 01:55 AM
No, it wouldn't keep them powerful, because now you lose them if you ban Evocation.

Good thing. You must make choices, you cannot obtain everything.