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Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:00 AM
So, as you can tell, im a noob, especially with magic users. My DM came up with a little twist for our campaign, which after a war we were involved in between the siblings that controlled an area of a country (Divided into 3 sections) he decided to ask us all to pick a number from 1-6, and then let our worried little mids try and guess what hes planning. It turned out, each number was for a character that he spent a couple weeks creating, and they turned out to be by coincidence a type of class weve never played, so it was all a complete opposite from class to alligntment, to personality, to even gender. but anyways getting a bit off topic.

Im used to melee fighting and tankish role, (such as my LG beloved dwarven fighter/dwarven defender) and i got a CE human sorcerer, who started at lvl 7. All character prgression is up to us now, but he wanted to see our role playing skills with something that was just given to us, so we have to try and stay in the confines of balancing our Characters Alignment AND their personality.

so since im a completely usless person with magic users atm i was wondering if I could gather a little help, such as, what stat points should i increase first for my sorcerer, and what spells should i take that could really smack a barbarian, STR/DEX fighter in the face, or a rogues for example (he gave her spell focus enchantment, still spell, improved initiative, toughness and a mix of primarily Enchantment, necromany, Illusion and Evocation spells to start with...if any of that information could make a diffrence in the help you could give.)

Edited: I forgot to put in a feat.

JeminiZero
2010-02-26, 11:10 AM
(he gave her spell focus enchantment, still spell, im proved initiative, and a mix of primarily Enchantment, necromany, Illusion and Evocation spells to start with...if any of that information could make a diffrence in the help you could give.)

Wait, so your DM has already picked out your race/class/feats AND spells? Eh... there isn't much we can do for you. Your best bet is to read up on some wizard guides to see how to use the spells you already have to win fights. You might want to list what spells you do have for more advice.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:23 AM
Yes, they were picked out, but the character is only level 7. The whole thing is kind of like a challenge he gave to us because whats goin down is, we had our main characters set off to head to this country, where the prince was asking for help because his fthers gone ape$#!@ pretty much, so to kind of introduce us, the player to whats going down, he took about a couple weeks to creat some characters that were in there, that were trying to get out (or something, he hasnt let us in on the entire plot yet, as not to spoil the surprises hes got).

Each of us, as i said in the OP, had to choose a number from 1-6, seeing as how there are 6 of us. Each number had been assign to one of the characters hes made, and each character has their own alignment, personality, and thoughts of the people they are currently with. And with this information, he wants to test our role playing skills (at the same time of laying out the next part of the story), by giving us something he created and we didnt know about. In a simpler way, its almost like improve, coming up with stuff on the spot, without knowing what was coming up, but making sure we stay in as the character....you know what i suck at exp[linations lol.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 11:25 AM
Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)
and (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0)
Sorcerer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0)
Guides (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)
for (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5)
your (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871862/3.5Forms_for_Alter_Self)
perusal (http://web.archive.org/web/20080502175329/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=822374)


For your perusal. Note, I linked the Malconvoker-guide, since it's the best guide on summoning monsters thus far. And the Polymorph-threads since that spell is incredibly strong, but only if you know how to use it (note, it may be too strong, but still, turning your Fighter into a Hydra just kicks ass). And Planar Binding-guide for good measure. Just be careful not to break the game.

Voice of Reason
2010-02-26, 11:25 AM
Hmmm...your DM has really done you a disservice by choosing both your feats and skill points. Your prestige class options are severely limited, and your feat selection already wasn't the greatest, but I digress.

Start with increasing your charisma modifier as far as it can possibly go. If you didn't start with a cloak of charisma, you should get one immediately, because that boost in save DCs will be a lifesaver given your spell set.

Your next level up will give you access to fourth level spells, so I suppose that'd be where you'd want to narrow your search. In order to really give you the best spell selection advice, I'd need to know what you already have, but here's some spells you may want to look into (DM willing):

-Wings of Flurry (4th level, Races of the Dragon). Great damage scaling with no glass ceiling, wide AoE, no risk of friendly fire, and save vs dazed. Get this spell first if your DM allows it (and you either don't want to or can't break the game with polymorph instead).
-Polymorph (4th level, PHB). If your DM is still allowing you to run with polymorph, ask him what forms your character is familiar with. Then be sure to become familiar with every creature he makes you fight; make him/her his/her own worst enemy. You'd be amazed at what you can solve with this simple spell.
-Heart of Earth (4th level, Complete Mage). Lasts 1 hour/level, grants temporary hp, allows a component-free stoneskin as a swift action. Only drawback is that it's personal use only, so pick this up a bit later.
-Animate Dead (4th level, PHB). This is an expensive spell, but if you're already looped into the CE sorcerer, there's no reason not to make full use of it. Consider looking into the Corpsecrafter feats. There's also a fun feat in the complete mage that lets you temporarily control one single undead beyond your HD max. Useful if your DM slips and gives you a hydra corpse.

As a sorcerer, you also have the option of retraining some of your lower-level spells every so often. Here's some choices I would considering adding in if they're not already known:

-Wings of Cover (2nd level, Races of the Dragon). Because blocking up to 1 attack/round is a lifesaver, literally.
-Suggestion (3rd level, PHB). Because if you're stuck with Spell Focus Enchantment, at least you should be using it every chance you get.
-Dispel Magic (3rd level, PHB). You never know when you'll absolutely need to make something disappear.

JEntropy
2010-02-26, 11:27 AM
so since im a completely usless person with magic users atm i was wondering if I could gather a little help, such as, what stat points should i increase first for my sorcerer

Charisma is the basis for their spellcasting abilities, so that's a good place to start. Generally speaking, a caster can get by with one great stat and fairly mediocre stats otherwise. Dexterity is also important for sorcerers because it helps (1) targeting with rays, (2) reflex saves, (3) AC


what spells should i take that could really smack a barbarian, STR/DEX fighter in the face, or a rogues for example (he gave her spell focus enchantment, still spell, im proved initiative, and a mix of primarily Enchantment, necromany, Illusion and Evocation spells to start with...if any of that information could make a diffrence in the help you could give.)

Play to the enemy's weaknesses, not their strengths. For the fighter, use spells that rely on will saves instead of fortitude saves, and control-type spells that render him ineffective in battle will be more useful than outright damage, due to his high HP.

Rogues have evasion and high reflex saves, so you should try and avoid spells that rely on either of those. Instead, use will or fortitude-based spells.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:27 AM
So far ive got these spells: Detect magic, Detect poison, Daze, Disrupt Undead, Light, Dancing light, resistance, Charm person, Disguise Self, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missle, Scorching Ray, Hideous laughter, Invisibility, Ghoul Touch, Hold Person and Suggestion.

Also as far as im aware of, all the characters are somewhere between lvl7 -lvl11.

Voice of Reason
2010-02-26, 11:30 AM
Wait...for your starting feats, you listed only three (still spell, spell focus: enchantment, and improved initiative). At level 6, you should have 4 feats from levels 1, 3, and 6, as well as your human bonus feat.

valadil
2010-02-26, 11:34 AM
So far ive got these spells: Detect magic, Detect poison, Daze, Disrupt Undead, Light, Dancing light, resistance, Charm person, Disguise Self, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missle, Scorching Ray, Hideous laughter, Invisibility, Ghoul Touch, Hold Person and Suggestion.

Also as far as im aware of, all the characters are somewhere between lvl7 -lvl11.

I've highlighted the spells you'll use a lot. You have some decent stuff there, but there's room for improvement. In general you want to figure out where an enemy's weak defense is. Fighter types have poor will saves, so use hold person on them. Casters and clerics get good will saves, so it probably won't work on them. You don't have anything that targets reflex or fortitude, which is why I say there's room for improvement. Pick up stinking cloud if you get a chance. Ray of Enfeeblement is an excellent debuff. Scorching Ray is solid damage. It improves at levels 7 and 11. I'll let you figure out invisibility for yourself, but that one has plenty of uses.

JEntropy
2010-02-26, 11:35 AM
As a sidenote, since one of the other commenters mentioned choosing fourth-level spells, I cannot recommend Evard's Black Tentacles enough.


Black Tentacles
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area, holding them fast and crushing them with great strength.

Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8. The tentacles are immune to all types of damage.

Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes.

Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles. Even creatures who aren’t grappling with the tentacles may move through the area at only half normal speed.
Material Component

A piece of tentacle from a giant octopus or a giant squid.

Unless your DM likes running your group against large, single monster encounters, this spell is golden. Watching it immobilize entire groups of enemy units...it makes me want to cry, it's so beautiful. In that horrific, otherworldly way.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:35 AM
Also still keep in mind, these arent our main characters. These characters are being used for an aside thing to lay out the plot for us, how ever, he did give us the option of, if we enjoyed the character alot, we could use it instead. I have my own character, a lvl 13 Dwarven fighter, with Dwarven Defender mix (needless to sya, i can take the damage, if they beat my armor class, but I can also deal it out lol). 8F/5DD.

And im at the opposite end of the spectrum of turning the fighter or the barbarian into a hydra, due to the given opinion of what my character thinks of the other people shes with...and shes chaotic evil, in the sense of she wants something, shell do what ever it takes to get it. she craves power, statsus, riches and fame. If you felt like it, could post the information about the character(s) and some details about the campaign that can explain whats been going on, and why they are in the position they're in at the moment, or i could send it to you, as not to fill up my thread with spam type posts, more than i have lol.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 11:38 AM
So far ive got these spells: Detect magic, Detect poison, Daze, Disrupt Undead, Light, Dancing light, resistance, Charm person, Disguise Self, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missle, Scorching Ray, Hideous laughter, Invisibility, Ghoul Touch, Hold Person and Suggestion.

Also as far as im aware of, all the characters are somewhere between lvl7 -lvl11.

You'd definitely want Glitterdust and Web in there. Also, Stinking Cloud, and Haste. Either way, you should make for a decent social machine with Charm Person and Suggestion. Just don't be afraid to use them as long as you can get away with it. And max out your Charisma. Lesser Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell could really help you out, as long as you can mask it as a walking stick of sorts.

Stats that matter to you:
- Charisma (above all else)
- Constitution (you're squishy by default; lots of HP alleviates that, not to mention improved saves vs. the most lethal effects)
- Dexterity (Initiative, most importantly - also helps AC and saves)

Rest aren't really that important. Int has some uses, Wis is used for your Will-saves, and yeah. All level-ups should go to Charisma.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:38 AM
Oh, your right, i missed one of the feats, sorry. the other one was toughness, due to the whole "Low health" thing lol.

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 11:44 AM
Toughness? For serious? Can't you at least get Improved Toughness... 3 HP is barely noticable anymore. Anyways:


And im at the opposite end of the spectrum of turning the fighter or the barbarian into a hydra, due to the given opinion of what my character thinks of the other people shes with...and shes chaotic evil, in the sense of she wants something, shell do what ever it takes to get it. she craves power, statsus, riches and fame. If you felt like it, could post the information about the character(s) and some details about the campaign that can explain whats been going on, and why they are in the position they're in at the moment, or i could send it to you, as not to fill up my thread with spam type posts, more than i have lol.

Don't neglect your allies. Just because they aren't your friends doesn't mean they aren't convenient. They are extremely useful tools and if the Fighter does the fighting, that's less of your own hands dirty. Throw a buff-spell and opponent will focus on him. Leaves you safe.

You're probably traveling with them specifically to make them do your job for you, save you the trouble and propel you to glory and power. Between Charm Person, Bluff in class, Suggestion and your obscene Charisma, you can be extremely persuasive to get what you want.

Morale of the story, egoistic people don't need to ignore their allies. Just because you don't care for them doesn't mean you can't use them. And often, improving your allies' combat prowess is the method of least expediture to deal with an encounter.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:49 AM
mmm..touche youve gt me there. Though i promise one of them wll probably die in some horrible "accident"...This is sucha strectch from my honourable, lawful good dwarf....except for the love of money thing.

And yes, i know, toughness. Since we havent used the characters yet (we just got them at the end of last session) Im gonna ask him if i can drop toughness for somehting more exciting...like a meta magic feat.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 11:54 AM
So, as you can tell, im a noob, especially with magic users. My DM came up with a little twist for our campaign, which after a war we were involved in between the siblings that controlled an area of a country (Divided into 3 sections) he decided to ask us all to pick a number from 1-6, and then let our worried little mids try and guess what hes planning. It turned out, each number was for a character that he spent a couple weeks creating, and they turned out to be by coincidence a type of class weve never played, so it was all a complete opposite from class to alligntment, to personality, to even gender. but anyways getting a bit off topic.

Im used to melee fighting and tankish role, (such as my LG beloved dwarven fighter/dwarven defender) and i got a CE human sorcerer, who started at lvl 7. All character prgression is up to us now, but he wanted to see our role playing skills with something that was just given to us, so we have to try and stay in the confines of balancing our Characters Alignment AND their personality.

Ugh...I hate DMs that do this. On the bright side, chaos can be used as an excuse to do anything. CE isn't the hardest to roleplay. Likewise, evil gets better caster tricks. And hell, a sorcerer isn't actually bad.


so since im a completely usless person with magic users atm i was wondering if I could gather a little help, such as, what stat points should i increase first for my sorcerer, and what spells should i take that could really smack a barbarian, STR/DEX fighter in the face, or a rogues for example (he gave her spell focus enchantment, still spell, improved initiative, toughness and a mix of primarily Enchantment, necromany, Illusion and Evocation spells to start with...if any of that information could make a diffrence in the help you could give.)

Edited: I forgot to put in a feat.

Cha is your friend. You will put every upgrade you can into it. A cha stat boost item is also wise. After that, con and dex are your next best friends.

I suggest you peruse both the sorcerer rules for relearning spells, and the retraining rules in phb2. Thus, as you level, you can customize even the decisions the DM made for you. First off, toughness is a crap feat. Replace it with something/anything useful. SF(enchantment) is marginal, and still spell is a weak feat unless you have a means of making metamagic NOT fullround for sorcs. Improved Init is fine though.

Spells you want to get asap: Wings of Cover(RotD), level 2 spell, Fly(or overland flight)

Gear you want to get: The Rainment of Four, an inexpensive set from MiC. It allows you to spont cast spells you don't have available, like a runestaff would. Spells included are light, magic missile, fireball, and teleport(might have missed one). The previously mentioned stat boosts should be applied to these items, as per MiC rules, instead of wasting slots on just stat boosts.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 11:59 AM
I actually dont mind mind this, seeing as how ive wnated to try a caster fora little while now, and this gives me the opprotunity to, and we'll be going back to the origional characters we used before, so thats not to bad...unless you know, i end up loving this char as much as my dwarf.

And i do agree, CE isnt the hardest to play...personally i think evil is more easy to play. And yeah im gonna ask him about changing a feat, at the very least, toughness.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 12:23 PM
So, aside from some spells, and stats that you guys have given me, which id like to say thanks alot by the way, i love you guys, id like to ask...

What kind of gear should i try and find (more specifically, any certain things you think i should aquire)?

Eldariel
2010-02-26, 12:25 PM
So, aside from some spells, and stats that you guys have given me, which id like to say thanks alot by the way, i love you guys, id like to ask...

What kind of gear should i try and find (more specifically, any certain things you think i should aquire)?

Items should be:
- Heward's Handy Haversack
- Cha-boosters
- Con-boosters
- Dex-boosters
- Circlet of Rapid Casting [MiC]
- Heward's Fortifying Bedrollx2 [MiC]
- Metamagic Rods (Lessers for now; Extend is a good one with some buffs but you have none on your list)

And if you max out Use Magic Device, Beads of Karma from Strand of Prayer Beads. With UMD, you can activate them even though you can't cast divine spells. +4 to Caster Level is just nice. And a Sorcerer, with his insane Charisma-focus, is fairly good at UMD.

And the links I linked in post 3? I didn't link them for fun. Read them.

Olfgar
2010-02-26, 12:31 PM
yeah, im slowly getting through these guides lol. And ty for them .

bah i just wish there was a ring or necklace or something that increased how many spells sorceres can KNOW...but sadly there isnt.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-26, 02:02 PM
bah i just wish there was a ring or necklace or something that increased how many spells sorceres can KNOW...but sadly there isnt.

I see Knowstones and Runestaves talked about for this purpose (may have gotten Knowstones wrong, haven't seen the books for either but Runestaves were pointed about a few posts up).

Edit: Having made my point, I'm listening to the Black Mages version of Dancing Mad. It is somehow more epic than the original.:smallbiggrin: Sorry for being off-topic for this.

Oh, as a Sorc you want spells you can cast over and over. For fourth-level spells Polymorph, Enervation, Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium) and Evard's Black Tentacles are all good choices. Third-level spells of note include Fly (trade for Phantom Steed at/shortly before 12th level) and Haste. I do not advise Fireball or Lightning Bolt, you cannot afford spells that do only one thing unless that thing is unique. Non-magic characters can do damage comparable to spells at will, so let them do it instead of wasting slots. (You probably got a lot of this from the guides though so this may have been a bit of a waste to type).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-26, 02:10 PM
Yeah, knowstones do it. The rainment of four do it like runestaves do.

RoTD has a set of draconic feats that'll add spells, albeit at a heavy feat cost.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-26, 07:33 PM
As a Chaotic Evil sorceress with that spell selection, your character's primary ways of interacting with other sentient beings will probably be to manipulate them into doing what she wants, or, falling that, zap them until they're no longer a problem. She definitely shouldn't neglect her allies. They're valuable tools; use them. Note that a successfully Charmed person both likes and trusts the caster. For an hour per caster level! That's good times.

Since she already has Still Spell, you might want to consider eventually giving her Eschew Materials and Silent Spell, too. (You might ask your DM to let you replace Toughness with Eschew Materials, since Still Spell is of limited usefulness if you still have to be able to grab material components.) That way she can still cast spells if tied up and gagged, in which case you'll probably also want her to be able to summon something capable of untying her. This also enables her to cast spells -- like, say, charm person -- without anyone being able to tell that she's casting them. If someone succeeds on a Will save, both the caster (if it's a targeted spell) and the subject of a spell are aware of this, but the subject has no way of knowing what caused them to make a Will save (especially if you target random people on a crowded street instead of trying to enchant people in the middle of conversation with them), so seriously, what are they gonna do?

Often, the spells you'll want to swap out will be lower-level versions of higher-level spells. Once you've got charm monster and hold monster, you don't really need charm person and hold person, so you can replace those with other spells known.

A suitable prestige class that advances spells known and spells per day and also gives your character other stuff is pretty much strictly better than straight Sorcerer. You may have to take some sub-par feats and skill ranks, and your familiar stops improving, but this is almost always worth it. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what PrC would be good for this character. If you could get the DM to adapt Thrallherd (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook), that would be good. Maybe too good.


bah i just wish there was a ring or necklace or something that increased how many spells sorceres can KNOW...but sadly there isnt.
That would be playing the Sorcerer class against type. Which may be what you need to do to achieve the ULTIMATE POWER MWAHAHA that casters are theoretically capable of, but is hardly required to be effective. Remember, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When all you have is enchantment, blasting, and debuff spells, everyone is a tool to be used, an enemy to be killed, or irrelevant and to be ignored. Work with what you've been given.

Olfgar
2010-02-27, 11:06 AM
How about PrC's? Whats the most effective for a sorcerer? Archmage? Mage of the circle/guildmage perhaps?