Scion of Hell (Revised; Please PEACH) (3.5 PRC; PEACH) [Archive]

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Drolyt

2010-02-26, 08:28 PM

Scion of Hell
"Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"
Hit Die
d8.
Requirements
To qualify to become a Scion of Hell, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment
Lawful Evil.
Base Attack Bonus
+8.
Skills
Bluff 13 ranks, Hide 13 ranks, Move Silently 13 ranks.
Feats
Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Leadership
Spells
Arcane Caster Level 1st; must be capable of casting spells Spontaneously.
Class Features
Sneak Attack +2d6
Special
Must posses the ability to summon a familiar.
Special
Must possess one of the following: the Weapon Specialization Feat, the Improved Combat Style class feature, the Smite Good class feature usable 2/day, or the Ki Strike (magic) class feature.
Class Skills
The Scion of Hell's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level
8 + Int Modifier.
The Scion of Hell
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells|Spell-Like Abiliites

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Aura of Evil, Bonus Feat, Diabolic Smite 1/day Diabolic Transformation (Claw and Bite, +2 Str), Expanded Spell List, Fiendish Servant, Sneak Attack +1d6|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Darkness 3/day, Detect Chaos At-Will, Detect Good At-Will, Disguise Self At-Will

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Dark Blessing, Dark Speech, Diabolic Cohort, Diabolic Transformation (+1 Natural Armor, Dex +2), Rebuke Devils|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class| Desecrate 1/day

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Diabolic Transformation (Darkvision, Con +2), Rebuke Devils|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Unholy Blight 1/day

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Diabolic Transformation (Wings, Int +2), Sneak Attack +2d6|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Poison 3/day

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Diabolic Smite 2/day, Diabolic Transformation (Damage Reduction, Wis +2)|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Contagion 1/day

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|Diabolic Transformation (Immune to Poison, Cha +2), Hellfire|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class| Blasphemy 1/day

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Diabolic Transformation (Energy Resistance, Str +2), Sneak Attack +3d6|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Unholy Aura 3/day, Unhallow 1/day

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|Diabolic Leadership, Diabolic Transformation (Smite Good, Dex +2)|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Horrid Wilting 1/day

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|Diabolic Transformation (Spell Resistance, Int +2), Vile Strike|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Summon Monster IX (devils only) 1/day

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat, Diabolic Smite 3/day, Diabolic Transformation (Apotheosis, Cha +2), Sneak Attack +4d6|+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane spellcasting class|Destruction 1/day, Wish 1/day[/table]
Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the Scion of Hell prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Scion of Hell gains no proficiency in any weapons or armor.
Spells
When a new Scion of Hell level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spontaneous arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.
Expanded Spell List
A Scion of Hell adds the Cleric spell list to the list of spells he may choose as spells known at each level.
Spell-Like Abilities
A Scion of Hell gains various spell-like abilities over the course of his transformation, as noted on Table: The Scion of Hell. Caster Level for these abilities is 10 + Spell Level + The Scion of Hell's Charisma Modifier.
Aura of Evil (Ex)
The power of a Scion of Hell’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his character level.
Bonus Feats
A Scion of Hell gains a bonus feat at 1st level and every third level thereafter (4th, 7th, and 10th). This feat must be either a fighter bonus feat or a vile feat. Scion of Hell levels stack with fighter levels (and effective fighter levels) for the purpose of taking feats that require a minimum fighter level.
Diabolic Smite (Su)
1/day a Scion of Hell can make a Diabolic Smite Attack. He adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per class level. He can use this ability 2/day at 5th level and 3/day at 10th level.
Diabolic Transformation
As a Scion of Hell progresses in level he begins to take on the traits of devils, eventually gaining all the powers of a Half-Fiend and some of the powers of the Baatezu. As part of this process he begins to appear more and more fiendish as he grows in level.
A Scion of Hell's ability scores improve as he grows in diabolic power, as detailed on Table: The Scion of Hell above.
At 1st level a Scion of Hell begins his diabolic transformation by growing extremely sharp claws and teeth, granting him two claw attacks dealing 1d4 damage and a bite attack dealing 1d6 damage. Damage is for medium creatures.
At 2nd level a Scion of Hell grows dark red scales that improve his natural armor bonus to AC by +1. If he did not previously posses natural armor he gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
At 3rd level a Scion of Hell's eyes begin to glow a bright red. He gains Darkvision 60 ft.
At 4th level a Scion of Hell grows bat-like wings. He gains a fly speed equal to his base land speed (average maneuverability).
At 5th level a Scion of Hell's body becomes so infused with evil that non-magical weapons can no longer damage him. He gains Damage Reduction 5/magic. Moreover his natural attacks now penetrate Damage Reduction as if they were magic weapons.
At 6th level a Scion of Hell's metabolism is such that he is Immune to Poison.
At 7th level a Scion of Hell's body becomes resistant to elemental attacks, granting him Acid Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Electricity Resistance 10, and Fire Resistance 10.
At 8th level a Scion of Hell gains the ability to Smite Good 1/day, adding her Charisma Modifier on the attack roll and her character level to the damage roll.
At 9th level a Scion of Hell's dark power is so great that magical attacks might fail to affect him. He gains Spell Resistance equal to his character level +10.
Finally, at 10th level a Scion of Hell achieves Apotheosis, becoming a fiend in true. He becomes an Outsider with the Baatezu, Evil, Lawful, and Native subtypes. He ceases aging and will never die of old age. His Damage Reduction improves to 10/Good and he gains Immunity to Fire. He gains the See In Darkness (Su) ability, allowing him to see in darkness of any kind, even that created by a Deeper Darkness spell. He also gains Telepathy out to 100 ft. Finally a Scion of Hell that has achieved Apotheosis can be raised or resurrected as though he were a humanoid; his body and soul are separate, and he suffers the fate of a humanoid when he dies. For the same reason he may travel between the planes freely, which gives him an advantage over other devils.
Fiendish Servant
A Scion of Hell must dismiss his familiar (if he has one) and cannot summon a new one (he does not lose experience for this). He instead gains the benefits of the blackguard's fiendish servant ability.
Sneak Attack
This ability is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage starts 1d6 at 1st level and increases by +1d6 every 3rd level thereafter (4th, 7th, and 10th). If a Scion of Hell gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.
Dark Blessing (Su)
A Scion of Hell of 2nd level or higher adds his Charisma Modifier as a bonus on all saving throws, exactly as the blackguard ability of the same name.
Dark Speech
A Scion of Hell gains this feat (found in The Book of Vile Darkness or Fiendish Codex I) as a bonus feat at 2nd level.
Diabolic Cohort
At second level the Scion of Hell must dismiss any cohort she may have and replace it with a devil. Instead of using effective character level and leadership score to determine how powerful a cohort the character can attract a Scion of Hell always attracts a devil whose CR is 4 lower than his character level. This devil has the elite array and can gain class levels (each level adds 1 to it's CR) but does not carry magic items and does not get a share of experience or treasure; the cohort is always of a CR 4 lower than the character and levels up automatically when the character does.
Rebuke Devils (Su)
This ability, gained at 3rd level, is like the ability of an evil cleric to rebuke undead except that it effects devils instead of undead. The Scion of Hell's effective cleric level for purposes of this effect is equal to his class level x2.
Hellfire (Sp)
At will a Scion of Hell of 6th level or higher may summon Hellfire from within the bowels of Hell itself as a standard action. This Hellfire draws on the Scion of Hell's own life force. To use the effect the Scion of Hell must take at least 1 point of Constitution Damage; he may take up to his character level in Constitution Damage for this effect, even if the damage would kill him. This damage cannot be avoided in any way and cannot be magically healed, but recovers normally over time. For every point of Constitution Damage he suffers he may target a single creature with this effect. The attack deals 1d8 points of damage per character level of the Scion of Hell plus 1d8 points of damage per point of Constitution Damage taken (Fortitude Save DC 20 + Scion of Hell's Charisma Modifier for half). This damage is not fire damage and cannot be reduced with energy resistance or immunity. This is a Conjuration effect not subject to spell resistance. A creature slain by this effect cannot be revived by anything short of a Miracle or Wish. Similarly, if the Scion of Hell dies using this effect he cannot be revived by anything short of a Miracle or Wish. This effect is the equivalent of a 10th level spell.
Diabolic Leadership
Starting at 8th level a Scion of Hell has grown powerful enough to attract followers from the legions of hell. The Scion of Hell retains his mortal followers which form his material plane cult and also gains an equal number of diabolic followers. To determine how powerful a devil a Scion of Hell can attract as a follower use challenge rating instead of level or effective character level.
In addition, starting at 3rd level a Scion of Hell adds his class level to his leadership score.
Vile Strike (Su)
1/day a Scion of Hell of 9th level or higher may make a Vile Strike as a Full-Round Action. The Scion of Hell charges up to twice his normal land speed and makes a single melee attack, adding +2 to the attack roll as normal for a charge and dealing an additional 1d6 points of damage per point of Charisma bonus the Scion of Hell possesses. Moreover the opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC for this attack and the Scion of Hell may add his Sneak Attack damage to the attack, even if the target is normally immune to Sneak Attack Damage. Finally, all damage dealt by this attack is Vile damage.
Wish (Sp)
At 10th level the Scion of Hell becomes capable of casting Wish as a spell-like ability 1/day. There are some restrictions beyond what a normal spell-like ability would have:
Unlike most spell-like abilities Wish has a verbal component.
Wish also has experience and material components, but only under the following circumstances (most other uses of this ability have no experience or material cost):
If you wish for nonmagical items (up to 25,000 GP in value) you must pay 5,000 experience.
If you wish for a magic item you pay twice the normal experience cost for crafting that item.
If you duplicate a spell with an experience cost you must pay that cost.
If you duplicate a spell with a valuable material component worth more than 10,000 GP you must provide that material component.
If you attempt an effect more powerful than those allowed in the Wish spells description you must pay 5,000 experience points, assuming the Wish actually works.
Epic Scion of Hell
Unlike most prestige classes Scion of Hell does not have an epic progression. A Scion of Hell that wishes to continue gaining power in the diabolical hierarchy must attain 21st level, acquire the Cleave, Epic Leadership (ELH or SRD), Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and Power Attack feats, and take the Duke of Hell Epic Prestige Class (to be detailed at a later date).
Old Description:
There are those who would serve the Lords of the Nine Hells of Baator, mad cultists and disciples of Bel, Dispater, Mammon, Belial and Fierna, Levistus, Glasya, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles, and dread Asmodeus. These are not the Scions of Hell. Then there are those who would serve the ultimate good, champions of the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia. These are not the Scions of Hell. Finally there are those who would rather rule in Hell than serve in Heaven. These are the Scions of Hell.
The Scion of Hell is a truly unique calling. Many are those who would serve another in order to gain power. Many also are those who are content with mortal power. Those few however, who have the audacity to believe that rather than serving planar powers they can become a planar power, it is these that seek the path of the Scion of Hell. A Scion of Hell does not serve the Lords of the Nine; he seeks to replace them. Moreover a Scion of Hell is not all talk; he actually is a being of great power, though not necessarily on the same level as the Lords of the Nine. At least not yet.

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 08:31 PM

This section to be redone; the class went through a major overhaul.

Milskidasith

2010-02-26, 08:58 PM

EDIT X2: I just realized in addition to feats, spellcasting levels, *and* crazy feats and BAB, you also need sneak attack and divine grace, so it requires Drolyt's entry method. Mine was a (comparatively) less terrible Fighter 4/Bard 2/Paladin 4, but I didn't see the sneak attack and familiar requirements. Some of the post may be incorrect because of this, so just assume the class is, in fact, harder to enter and more disparate for the entry than I have posted right now.

Spells
When a new Scion of Hell level is gained (except 1st level), the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spontaneous arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that starting at 2nd level she adds the level of Scion of Hell -1 to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

You can cut the second part out. The first sentence is fine.

Expanded Spell List
A Scion of Hell adds the Cleric spell list to the list of spells he may choose as spells known at each level.

This is absurdly powerful for any classes that are arcane spontaneous casters who don't learn spells, just know all those on their list. Beguiler, anybody? Granted, it requires crazy multiclassing to get it to work, but I'm sure you could find a way.

Fallen
If a fallen paladin becomes a Scion of Hell then he regains access to his Divine Grace class ability.

That would be a bit of an odd multiclass, wouldn't it? Seeing as divine spontaneous casters get nothing, Paladins get no benefits from this class, *and* they can't meet the skill requirements anyway.

Fiendish Servant
A Scion of Hell must dismiss his familiar (if he has one) and cannot summon a new one (he does not lose experience for this). He instead gains the benefits of the blackguard's fiendish servant ability.

So you get rid of the waste of EXP (if you didn't already ACF it away) for a slightly more useful, but still pretty much useless (the skill check bonus from a familiar might be better) waste of space? Not a bad class feature, just not that useful; no reason to cut it, though.

EDIT: Can't use an ACF to get rid of the familiar. So... yeah, it actually locks you out of spellcasting power (not as much as the eight or nine non spellcaster levels you have to take to enter this, though.)

Aura of Evil (Ex)
The power of a Scion of Hell’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his class level plus his blackguard level (if any) plus his paladin level (if any).

OK, why are there so many strange requirements for this class? It's an arcane spontaneous PrC with paladin features and requirements neither paladins nor core arcane spontaneous caster classes can make.

Diabolic Transformation
As a Scion of Hell progresses in level he begins to take on the traits of devils.
At 1st level a Scion of Hell gains 2 claw attacks dealing 1d4 damage and 1 bite attack dealing 1d6 damage. Damage is for medium creatures. His Strength also improves by +2.
At 2nd level a Scion of Hell increases his Natural Armor bonus by +1 and his Dexterity improves by +2.
At 3rd level a Scion of Hell gains Darkvision out to 60' and his Constitution improves by +2.
At 4th level a Scion of Hell gains immunity to poison and his Intelligence improves by +2.
At 5th level a Scion of Hell gains Acid Resistance 10 and his Charisma improves by +2.
At 6th level a Scion of Hell gains Cold Resistance 10 and his Strength improves by an additional +2.
At 7th level a Scion of Hell gains Electricity Resistance 10 and his Dexterity improves by an additional +2.
At 8th level a Scion of Hell gains Fire Resistance 10 and his Intelligence improves by an additional +2.
At 9th level a Scion of Hell gains Spell resistance equal to 10 + twice his Scion of Hell level.
At 10th level a Scion of Hell achieves apotheosis and becomes a fiend in true. He gains damage reduction 10/good and magic, wings with a fly speed equal to his base land speed (average maneuverability), and becomes an Outsider with the Native, Lawful, and Evil subtypes. The Scion no longer ages and will not die of old age.

Level 1: Free attacks and a strength bonus. Good for the gishy part of the class, though not amazing, since you can only really use the bite without wasting your ability to use weapons. What type of bonus are they? Untyped, or did you just not mention it was inherent or something?

Level 2: Dexterity benefits, and... improving natural armor? What if, like most every PC, they don't have natural armor?

Level 3: Darkvision (woo?) and a +2 con (woo!). Lots of stat bonuses.

Level 4: Immunity to poison... and a +2 int? What does a +2 int do? That synergizes with none of the potential entry classes.

Level 5, 6, 7, 8: Why not have the resistances just all start at 1 and increase by 1 every class level? It's a bit weird to gain a level and suddenly gain a new resistance. Stat bonuses are, again, rather pointless.

Level 9: The SR is useless. Literally, it can't block anything at the level you get it.

Level 10: He can't be revived, which sucks, and he gets an OK fly speed. Not amazing. Why are the stat bonuses best for Int when it's a charisma caster class?

Smite Chaos (Su)
Once a day, a Scion of Hell may attempt to smite chaos with one normal melee attack.
He adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per class level. If a Scion of Hell accidentally smites a creature that is not chaotic, the smite has no effect but it is still used up for that day.
At 5th level, and again at 10th level, a Scion of Hell may smite chaos one additional time per day.

Smite Good (Su)
Once a day, a Scion of Hell may attempt to smite good with one normal melee attack.
He adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per class level. If a Scion of Hell accidentally smites a creature that is not good, the smite has no effect but it is still used up for that day.
At 5th level, and again at 10th level, a Scion of Hell may smite good one additional time per day.

Smiting. Very generic. I guess it makes sense because you wanted it to be a paladin/arcane caster gish, but again, paladins and arcane casters cannot enter this class.

Bonus Feats
A Scion of Hell gains a bonus feat at 2nd level and every third level thereafter (5th and 8th). This feat must be either a fighter bonus feat or a vile feat. Scion of Hell levels stack with fighter levels (and effective fighter levels) for the purpose of taking feats that require a minimum fighter level.

OK, fighter feats and fighter stacking? What classes do you want to enter this, again?

Sneak Attack
This ability, gained at 3rd level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 3rd (6th and 9th). If a Scion of Hell gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

OK, paladin, arcane caster, fighter, and rogue stacking. It's certainly versatile, it's just a pity none of them can enter the class on time. Sneak attack itself is fine, I suppose.

Rebuke Devils
This ability, gained at 4th level, is like the ability of an evil cleric to rebuke undead except that it effects devils instead of undead. The Scion of Hell's effective cleric level for purposes of this effect is equal to his class level plus his levels in blackguard and paladin (if any).

Diabolic Leadership
Starting at 7th level a Scion of Hell has grown powerful enough to attract followers and cohorts from the legions of hell. The Scion of Hell retains his mortal followers (but not any mortal cohorts) and also gains an equal number of diabolic followers. To determine how powerful a devil a Scion of Hell can attract as a follower use challenge rating instead of level or effective character level. The character dismisses any cohorts he may have had and gains a devil as a cohort (unlike followers you still use effective character level to determine what sort of cohort you may attract) (Erinyes are the most popular choice, and they are treated as -1 ECL for this purpose). Note: Followers are typical for their race. Cohorts are assumed to have the elite array, carry magic items appropriate for it's effective character level, have customized feats and skills, and gain experience and class levels, just like an non player character of a humanoid race. If a Scion of Hell's cohort does not have these benefits (ie is typical for its race) the Dungeon Master should lower its effective character level to compensate.

In addition, a Scion of Hell adds his class level to his leadership score.

Considering this is (in theory) a class to enter with high charisma, that benefit probably won't help you get a higher level cohort, and followers are useless in real play. Also, ECL is a bit hard to figure out when most devils don't, you know, have level adjustment stats, and an Erinyes is a completely terrible cohort race. A class feature shouldn't weaken you, and this does, unless you make a habit of actually using followers in battle (in which case they save you a round while the foe casts an AoE spell and wipes them.)

Epic Scion of Hell
Unlike most prestige classes Scion of Hell does not have an epic progression. A Scion of Hell that wishes to continue gaining power in the diabolical hierarchy must attain 21st level, acquire the Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech (from BoVD or FC I), Epic Leadership (EPH or SRD), Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical feats, and take the Duke of Hell Epic Prestige Class (to be detailed at a later date).

So you need to spend almost all of your feats on completely worthless things to keep going in a class that gives you nothing but stat boosts and synergy with about five character classes.

Overall, I just don't get this. It's a caster PrC that requires martial feats and BAB and skillmonkey skills, along with a ton of feats that require you to take fighter levels, and in the end you get minor resistance to some elements, an immunity to poison, worthless SR, some DR, and a flight speed. It's impossible to enter this at level 10 without unfavorable multiclassing and an alignment change (EDIT: Seeing the special requirements, which I had missed, you in fact "only" need to multiclass multiple times and have a useless dead level in sorcerer), and in doing such you get, at best, four levels in paladin (if you shift alignment twice just to pick up paladin levels), which this is also a PrC for. The benefits are relatively minor compared to any of the things you could get by just staying in one of the the classes.

Overall, the PrC is a power drop for basically any character and requires so many feats every character entering the PrC will be almost exactly the same.

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 09:16 PM

First off, thank you for going through this, although you don't seem to like it :).

EDIT X2: I just realized in addition to feats, spellcasting levels, *and* crazy feats and BAB, you also need sneak attack and divine grace, so it requires Drolyt's entry method. Mine was a (comparatively) less terrible Fighter 4/Bard 2/Paladin 4, but I didn't see the sneak attack and familiar requirements. Some of the post may be incorrect because of this, so just assume the class is, in fact, harder to enter and more disparate for the entry than I have posted right now.
I am Drolyt. The second post was made because the first was already big and so I could edit the two seperately. That aside I made the class hard to enter on purpose, because I meant for it to be very powerful, although you don't think it is.

You can cut the second part out. The first sentence is fine.
Done. I copy pasted it from the SRD, that's how WotC words things for some reason.

This is absurdly powerful for any classes that are arcane spontaneous casters who don't learn spells, just know all those on their list. Beguiler, anybody? Granted, it requires crazy multiclassing to get it to work, but I'm sure you could find a way.
True, but to enter in some way other than Sorcerer would require the feat from Complete Arcane that gives you a familiar in addition to all the other work necessary to take this class.

That would be a bit of an odd multiclass, wouldn't it? Seeing as divine spontaneous casters get nothing, Paladins get no benefits from this class, *and* they can't meet the skill requirements anyway.
To take this class you either need Blackguard 2 or Paladin 2, so I thought it was a good idea to throw that in there for fallen paladins so they could take the class.

So you get rid of the waste of EXP (if you didn't already ACF it away) for a slightly more useful, but still pretty much useless (the skill check bonus from a familiar might be better) waste of space? Not a bad class feature, just not that useful; no reason to cut it, though.
I wanted a more evil themed familiar. I didn't feel like coming up with the rules myself. So yeah this might as well be flavor.

EDIT: Can't use an ACF to get rid of the familiar. So... yeah, it actually locks you out of spellcasting power (not as much as the eight or nine non spellcaster levels you have to take to enter this, though.)
The first thing I need to fix is to make it clear that this is really meant to be a warrior with a dab of spellcasting power (CL 10 by 20th level).

OK, why are there so many strange requirements for this class? It's an arcane spontaneous PrC with paladin features and requirements neither paladins nor core arcane spontaneous caster classes can make.
I wanted a class where you had to multiclass a lot to get in but it would seem worth it. Perhaps it doesn't.

Level 1: Free attacks and a strength bonus. Good for the gishy part of the class, though not amazing, since you can only really use the bite without wasting your ability to use weapons. What type of bonus are they? Untyped, or did you just not mention it was inherent or something?

Level 2: Dexterity benefits, and... improving natural armor? What if, like most every PC, they don't have natural armor?

Level 3: Darkvision (woo?) and a +2 con (woo!). Lots of stat bonuses.

Level 4: Immunity to poison... and a +2 int? What does a +2 int do? That synergizes with none of the potential entry classes.

Level 5, 6, 7, 8: Why not have the resistances just all start at 1 and increase by 1 every class level? It's a bit weird to gain a level and suddenly gain a new resistance. Stat bonuses are, again, rather pointless.

Level 9: The SR is useless. Literally, it can't block anything at the level you get it.

Level 10: He can't be revived, which sucks, and he gets an OK fly speed. Not amazing. Why are the stat bonuses best for Int when it's a charisma caster class?
It's supposed to be giving you the Half-Fiend Template essentially. Also Native Outsiders can be rezzed.

Smiting. Very generic. I guess it makes sense because you wanted it to be a paladin/arcane caster gish, but again, paladins and arcane casters cannot enter this class.
Actually it makes sense because I wanted it to be a devil, opposed to good and chaos.

OK, fighter feats and fighter stacking? What classes do you want to enter this, again?

OK, paladin, arcane caster, fighter, and rogue stacking. It's certainly versatile, it's just a pity none of them can enter the class on time. Sneak attack itself is fine, I suppose.

Considering this is (in theory) a class to enter with high charisma, that benefit probably won't help you get a higher level cohort, and followers are useless in real play. Also, ECL is a bit hard to figure out when most devils don't, you know, have level adjustment stats, and an Erinyes is a completely terrible cohort race. A class feature shouldn't weaken you, and this does, unless you make a habit of actually using followers in battle (in which case they save you a round while the foe casts an AoE spell and wipes them.
I considered making cohorts run off of CR like followers do. Do you think this would be balanced?

So you need to spend almost all of your feats on completely worthless things to keep going in a class that gives you nothing but stat boosts and synergy with about five character classes.
Yep.

Overall, I just don't get this. It's a caster PrC that requires martial feats and BAB and skillmonkey skills, along with a ton of feats that require you to take fighter levels, and in the end you get minor resistance to some elements, an immunity to poison, worthless SR, some DR, and a flight speed. It's impossible to enter this at level 10 without unfavorable multiclassing and an alignment change (EDIT: Seeing the special requirements, which I had missed, you in fact "only" need to multiclass multiple times and have a useless dead level in sorcerer), and in doing such you get, at best, four levels in paladin (if you shift alignment twice just to pick up paladin levels), which this is also a PrC for. The benefits are relatively minor compared to any of the things you could get by just staying in one of the the classes
I need to make the flavor more clear.

Overall, the PrC is a power drop for basically any character and requires so many feats every character entering the PrC will be almost exactly the same.
I'll work on it.

GoC

2010-02-26, 09:27 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 09:48 PM

Milskidasith: That SR is not useless. When you get it it's SR 28 and increases to SR 30 on the next level. That's a minor benefit for a level 19-20 chacracter.

I disagree with most of what you've said.

Though I do agree that this class is spread way too thin.
A few recommendations for Drolyt:
Add a feature that makes your CL equal to your character level.
Give +2 Cha at level 9 and +2 Con at level 10.
Switch one of the +2 Int's to a +2 Wis.
Include a clause that says you can be resurrected after you get your level 10 abilities (there is precedent for this).
Something nice SLAs perhaps? A Blasphemy, Planar Ally and Unholy Aura should fit the theme.

Once it's balanced out this should be an excellent class!:smallsmile:

EDIT: Isn't Profession a bit of a strange thing to have on your skill list as an ascending demon?

Added a class feature that makes CL equal to character level. Gave +2 Con at 9th level, and +2 Cha at 10th level, switched out an Int for a Wis. Included clause allowing you to be resurrected, although I could have sworn that was part of the Native subtype. Already has some nice SLAs. Removed Profession. Beefed up Diabolic Leadership. I'm thinking of making it so you don't have to be a Blackguard or Paladin to get in, and instead grant Dark Blessing as one of the class features.
Edit: Also Erinyes was suggested as a popular Cohort not because I thought they were useful, but because I was thinking of Nale and Sabine when I wrote that.

Milskidasith

2010-02-26, 09:49 PM

Milskidasith: That SR is not useless. When you get it it's SR 28 and increases to SR 30 on the next level. That's a minor benefit for a level 19-20 chacracter.

Actually, SR is a penalty for any character that has a wizard in the party, because it makes them unbuffable/unhealable. I also had read it as 10+class level, which would be worthless.

I disagree with most of what you've said.

OK, what do you disagree with? This statement says nothing on it's own. I have a feeling you disagree more with my manner (that is, actually criticizing something when it says PEACH, even if it's not blatently terrible/OP) than with anything I've said. Do you disagree with the entry requirements? The strange way you get your resistances? The +int for a class that doesn't rely on it? I don't know what you disagree with.

Though I do agree that this class is spread way too thin.
A few recommendations for Drolyt:
Add a feature that makes your CL equal to your character level.
Give +2 Cha at level 9 and +2 Con at level 10.
Switch one of the +2 Int's to a +2 Wis.
Include a clause that says you can be resurrected after you get your level 10 abilities (there is precedent for this).
Something nice SLAs perhaps? A Blasphemy, Planar Ally and Unholy Aura should fit the theme.

CL = character level is a big no; there's no point in getting 9 levels of casting for free. Not that it would help with limited spells known (sans ardent) but... why? It's not meant to be a caster PrC, apparantly, so I'd rather cut it entirely than give it a huge boost for a one level dip.

More stat boosts are OK, since they are the only thing the class has going for it.

Ressurection is good.

SLAs are good, but Blasphemy is probably worthless (can't affect anything above your HD, CL increasers don't help SLAs)

Once it's balanced out this should be an excellent class!:smallsmile:

The fact that it requires four different classes and most of your feats to enter make it very hard to balance.

EDIT: Isn't Profession a bit of a strange thing to have on your skill list as an ascending demon?

Every class has profession and craft on it's skill list.

EDIT: Seeing as you listened to his advice: Remove the CL = class level thing. Again, it's not as powerful as a full caster, but I just don't see the point in a one level dip in sorcerer and a one level dip in this PrC giving you a caster level of 20. Keep profession on the list; every class in the game has it besides War Hulk, and that explicitly can't use any mental based skills besides intimidate.

EDIT X2: HOLY CRAP the way you worded the CL increase is bad. As in, "Ur Priest + 1 level dips = +10 CL in Ur-Priest for every class I dip into" bad. That's actually worse than the cheese used to make The Word get it's absurdly high CL at 20, and with that's cheese you could easily get a CL of 200 with Ur-Priest. Not to mention the comparatively tamer fact that you can take this class and take a one level dip into ardent for ninth level powers.

Get rid of the feature entirely, it's broken as hell.

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 10:02 PM

Every class has profession and craft on it's skill list.

EDIT: Seeing as you listened to his advice: Remove the CL = class level thing. Again, it's not as powerful as a full caster, but I just don't see the point in a one level dip in sorcerer and a one level dip in this PrC giving you a caster level of 20. Keep profession on the list; every class in the game has it besides War Hulk, and that explicitly can't use any mental based skills besides intimidate.

EDIT X2: HOLY CRAP the way you worded the CL increase is bad. As in, "Ur Priest + 1 level dips = +10 CL in Ur-Priest for every class I dip into" bad. That's actually worse than the cheese used to make The Word get it's absurdly high CL at 20, and with that's cheese you could easily get a CL of 200 with Ur-Priest. Not to mention the comparatively tamer fact that you can take this class and take a one level dip into ardent for ninth level powers.

Get rid of the feature entirely, it's broken as hell.

I'm removing that feature and adding profession back in. I'm also revising entry requirements. I'll think about your other suggestions.

GoC

2010-02-26, 10:08 PM

OK, what do you disagree with? This statement says nothing on it's own. I have a feeling you disagree more with my manner than with anything I've said.
*thinks for a bit*
True. There are pleasant, neutral and unpleasant ways of criticising (you had an evil subtext).
You'll notice he listened to mine despite me clearly not being experienced at homebrewing.:smallbiggrin:

CL = character level is a big no; there's no point in getting 9 levels of casting for free. Not that it would help with limited spells known (sans ardent) but... why? It's not meant to be a caster PrC, apparantly, so I'd rather cut it entirely than give it a huge boost for a one level dip.
Not nine levels of casting, simply an increased CL. You'd still have few spellslots/spells known and no access to high levels spells but at least the spells you DO have don't automatically dispel away and chucking an occasional fireball at a group of mooks is actually not entirely useless. It's not going to be overpowered.:smallconfused:

The fact that it requires four different classes and most of your feats to enter make it very hard to balance.
I think I've managed to balance my 0/10 spellcasting PrC. This is much easier to balance than that.

Every class has profession and craft on it's skill list.
Doesn't mean that this one should have it. While I can see Cleric and Wizard as professions I can't see Demon as a profession.

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 10:28 PM

Edit: The below is outdated.

Okay, I've revised the entry requirements to be less evil. Now, to get in, you need Fighter 4, Rogue 3, and Sorcerer 3. Now what you two are saying that I really don't get is that you claim it is underpowered. With Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Sorcerer 3 and 10 levels of this class you get:
BAB +17, only 3 less than full Fighter.
6 Fighter bonus feats, only 5 less than full Fighter.
+5d6 Sneak Attack, 5d6 less than full Rogue.
Dark Blessing, a pretty powerful ability.
A slightly better version of the Half-Fiend Template, which has a +4 LA.
Crap loads of skills, only slightly worse than Rogue.
Awesome Saves (all at Base +12, not to mention Dark Blessing)
Cast as 13th level Sorcerer with access to Cleric Spells.
The ability to smite more often than a Paladin against a wider variety of foes.
Super Leadership and the ability to rebuke devils.
Wish as a spell-like ability 1/day (that got left out of the original draft by accident).
So................................................ .................................................. ......
Seems pretty powerful to me.

Sir_Chivalry

2010-02-26, 11:06 PM

Okay, I've revised the entry requirements to be less evil. Now, to get in, you need Fighter 4, Rogue 3, and Sorcerer 3. Now what you two are saying that I really don't get is that you claim it is underpowered. With Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Sorcerer 3 and 10 levels of this class you get:
BAB +17, only 3 less than full Fighter.
6 Fighter bonus feats, only 5 less than full Fighter.
+5d6 Sneak Attack, 5d6 less than full Rogue.
Dark Blessing, a pretty powerful ability.
A slightly better version of the Half-Fiend Template, which has a +4 LA.
Crap loads of skills, only slightly worse than Rogue.
Awesome Saves (all at Base +12, not to mention Dark Blessing)
Cast as 13th level Sorcerer with access to Cleric Spells.
The ability to smite more often than a Paladin against a wider variety of foes.
Super Leadership and the ability to rebuke devils.
Wish as a spell-like ability 1/day (that got left out of the original draft by accident).
So................................................ .................................................. ......
Seems pretty powerful to me.

Ain't much to say except that yes, it is powerful enough to think it cna rule hell.

(Bel would eat its children then burn its house down. But at least he would have reason to think he can rule hell)

Drolyt

2010-02-26, 11:16 PM

Ain't much to say except that yes, it is powerful enough to think it cna rule hell.

(Bel would eat its children then burn its house down. But at least he would have reason to think he can rule hell)

Well, this is only supposed to be a first step. Duke of Hell will give him numerous additional abilities over 10 levels, and after that will be a Prince of Hell class with 10 levels. Finally an Overlord of Hell class will grant divine powers, including eventual ascension.

How powerful do you say the Lords of the Nine are? BoVD challenge ratings (which are under CR by the way), where Asmodeus tops at 32 CR? Advancing Fiendish Codex II aspects (he's already CR 27 as an aspect there)? Gates of Hell CR (I believe it's like 84)? Is Asmodeus just an avatar of his true form?

GoC

2010-02-27, 07:24 AM

Seems pretty powerful to me.
With the addition of the Wish, the extra three sorceror levels, more rounded stat increase and Dark blessing I think it's good to go now.

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 01:29 PM

I've updated the class. It should be easier to read now and slightly more powerful, with the Apotheosis gained at 10th level being an altogether more interesting capstone.

With the addition of the Wish, the extra three sorceror levels, more rounded stat increase and Dark blessing I think it's good to go now.
Good.

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 01:58 PM

The below is way outdated.
I think I've found a Martial Adept entry for those who like Tome of Battle. At any rate it should make you character slightly stronger for the ten levels it takes to get into this PRC. Firstly you have to either be a Human or get your DM to allow flaws (I'm assuming Human with no flaws). First you take 6 levels of Warblade, with the following feat distribution: 1st Power Attack, Cleave 3rd Improved Sunder 5th (Warblade) Combat Expertise 6th Leadership. Now take 2 levels of Sorcerer, pumping up your bluff while your at it. Finally, at 9th level the real trick begins. Take 1 level of Swordsage. For your maneuvers choose at least one Shadow Hand Maneuver and make your stance Assassin's Stance, getting you the 2d6 Sneak Attack requirement. Then You get Weapon Focus in a discipline weapon. Since you are Warblade 6 you qualify to take Weapon Specialization at this level. This meets all the requirements. Finally take one more level of Sorcerer and top off your bluff. You can enter my PRC now! Yay! There are other ways as well, and if you are allowed flaws it can be even easier, but I don't want it to be too easy since it is a strong class :smallsmile:
Edit: Even easier, if you are a Human with two flaws starting as Fighter you can nab Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and Weapon Focus right off the bat. Take Fighter through level 4, picking up Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, and Weapon Specialization. Then go Sorcerer through level 9 (5 levels), which really makes you quite a bit more powerful, ensuring access to 7th level spells by level 20. For feats obviously leadership at 6th level and at 9th level Iron Will. Finally at 10th level you can take Swordsage to get a Shadow Hand Maneuver and Assassin's Stance. You are good to go! To get into Duke of Hell later you now need only take Dark Speech, Improved Initiative, and Multiattack pre-epic, 2 of which are available to you as bonus feats, and Epic Leadership once you hit 21st level.

Edit #2: Even so the intended entry is Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Sorcerer 3. More efficient entries run the risk of being overpowered. As a side note a Human Fighter with 2 Flaws that takes the Sneak Attack and Thug variants from Unearthed Arcana need not take any Rogue or Martial Adept levels. Sneak Attack Thug 4/Sorcerer 6 is probably the most powerful spellcasting focused entry.

Fortuna

2010-02-27, 03:51 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 04:15 PM

Well, I did promise that I'd lookit over I guess...

So this is really intended for NPCs/BBEGs? If not, then it will never see use in any game that doesn't start at a fairly high level AFAICS, simply because the multiclassing is far too crippling. If so, then fun fun fun!

I guess I don't see how the multiclassing is that crippling. Fighter 4/Rogue 3 is actually pretty good, putting you around tier 4. Sorcerer 3 kinda hurts but if you choose your spells wisely it's not so bad, you're probably stronger than straight rogue or fighter at this point although weaker than straight sorcerer. Then once you get into this PRC you shoot up to Tier 3 pretty quickly, what with the spellcasting advancement, the sneak attack, the full skills, the full BAB and saves, the bonus feats, the sweet spell-like abilities and ability score advancements...
Edit: How about suggestions for making the class more attractive without overpowering it?
Edit #2: Dropped all the feats except Weapon Specialization, so you still have to be Fighter 4 but you can optimize better now. Does that help?
Edit #3: It has now had an almost complete overhaul. The stupid requirements have been fixed. You still need at least some multiclassing though, though you can do it with two classes if you go outside core (Assassin's Stance and Sneak Attack Variant Fighter come to mind, but at any rate you need at least one level of Sorcerer).

hamishspence

2010-02-27, 04:21 PM

Reminds me a little of the 4E Epic destiny "Prince of Hell" in Dragon Compendium, in concept.

Except that one has no alignment requirement.

So you could be a Lawful Good Prince of Hell.

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 04:23 PM

Reminds me a little of the 4E Epic destiny "Prince of Hell" in Dragon Compendium, in concept.

Except that one has no alignment requirement.

So you could be a Lawful Good Prince of Hell.

Wait, how does that work?

hamishspence

2010-02-27, 04:32 PM

It's in the section "Masters of the Planes"

You start transforming into a devil (gain the immortal origin, fire resistance, charisma boost, darkvision)

At higher level, you gain Hellfire- all your fire attacks, if you have any, ignore resistance to fire- and you can make one encounter power fiery.

You gain the ability to summon devilish legionaries once per day.

And finally, you gain the ability to teleport at will (only 5 squares)- anyone adjacent when you teleport away, takes fire damage.

The flavor text suggests you could have sold your soul, or drawn the attention of an archdevil who wants you for an heir, or be a lost scion of Hell only now realizing you heritage's full potential.

On alignment:

Contrary to what you might expect, you don't have to be evil to rule in the Nine Hells, though being all dark and nasty goes far to making sure you hold onto what you take. Anyone with a firm hand can claim a place in the infernal realms, and maybe, just maybe, change the dominion in some small way, at least until the Lord of Nessus smacks you down.

And the phrase used, under the name of the destiny:
"Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven"

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 05:15 PM

Erevar

2010-02-27, 07:19 PM

hi i am new to the forums but have been lurking here because of the vast amount of homebrews this one really spoke to my own ambition for a character, however, even though i like what you have done i would like to suggest a couple of changes.

first of all i would suggest that you give the scion only one smite type that simply does damage to all enemies similar to who the doomlords from planar handbook works and say that the scion channels the raw power of hell in his strike and name it something like hellfire strike.

second i would suggest that you remove the weapon specialization feat and replace with something else combat related like combat casting so that other full BAB classes can enter into this PRC. Like a ranger that hunts humanoids for their souls:smallbiggrin: and i would also suggest that you remove the sneak attack requirement because devils are known for their silver tongues which tempt mortals and hiding in the dark which i think would be better represented by adding more skill requirements like hide and move silently and maybe diplomacy or intimidate.

Thirdly what i think further complicates things is the fact that in your diabolic transformation ability why not just say that at 10th level they gain the half fiend template with all the subtypes and abilities that you state in your text and the specific spell like abilities that this PRC gives only which i would suggest that you change those that are given by the half fiend template to more flavorful ones maybe more corrupt spells since they as fiends will not have to pay the corruption cost. And for presentation purposes only i would suggest that you make a different column for the spell like abilities they gain because the column with the special abilities of the prc is way to crowded .

Again i really liked this idea and i hope to use in one of the campaigns that i play with either as a player or as a dm.

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 07:26 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 08:28 PM

I've redone the class so that it is much easier to read and is now pretty powerful. I've also made the requirements much less of a pain, although there is still some opportunity cost in entering this prestige class. What does everyone think?

GoC

2010-02-27, 09:45 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 10:02 PM

Vile Strike is sorta useless (primarily because at level 20 everyone is playing rocket tag* and a full round action becomes a very very long time) in your average encounter (vile damage is nice against BBEGs though). It deals 18 (large greatsword)+36 (sneak attack)+36 (power attack)+18 (34 Str)=108 damage. Maximizing is kind of boring in practice. When you're doing an epic strike you want to roll dice!:smallbiggrin:
I'd remove the maximization and instead add on an extra 10d6 damage!

* Melee is either uber-charger (dealing 100s of points of damage per hit), lockdown, ToB or useless.

You need to mention what kind of action does it takes to use Hellfire.

This class is a bit on the powerful side now that I'm looking at it closely... it's obviously better than the Fighter in every way but it also seems better than the Ranger, Paladin and pretty much all other non full-spellcasters. Probably a Tier 2 or Tier 1.

But I don't think it needs any changing as none of it's abilities stack enough for it to completely overwhelm the enemy along any one line of attack (though it's saves are in the stratosphere:smallbiggrin:).

I'll think about how to make Vile Strike better and fix the Hellfire problem. I really doubt this is tier 1 or 2 though, maybe high tier 3 but tier 1 is reserved for fullcasters with access to large lists like wizard and cleric which this is most certainly not while tier 2 is for classes as powerful as tier 1 but with less options. This is obviously not tier 1, I was aiming for tier 3, and if it turns out it's tier 2 I obviously ****ed up.
Edit: Is that better for Hellfire and Vile Strike?

GoC

2010-02-27, 10:25 PM

I'll think about how to make Vile Strike better and fix the Hellfire problem. I really doubt this is tier 1 or 2 though, maybe high tier 3 but tier 1 is reserved for fullcasters with access to large lists like wizard and cleric which this is most certainly not while tier 2 is for classes as powerful as tier 1 but with less options. This is obviously not tier 1, I was aiming for tier 3, and if it turns out it's tier 2 I obviously ****ed up.
Edit: Is that better for Hellfire and Vile Strike?
Make Vile Strike gain the effects of his Smite attack as well.
Hellfire may be a bit too much but it's hard to tell. You get it at level 16 and it does 9*16=141 automatic damage. Did you really want it to one-shot Xykon at level 16?
The problem with it is the fact that you'll most likely only use it in final battles but final battles are generally against powerful spellcasters (or Gish builds) and a few mooks (and if you use this twice everything dies)! No save, no attack roll, no SR, no immunity.
Not too sure how to balance it I'm afraid. Sorry.:smallfrown:

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 10:32 PM

Make Vile Strike gain the effects of his Smite attack as well.
Hellfire may be a bit too much but it's hard to tell. You get it at level 16 and it does 9*16=141 automatic damage. Did you really want it to one-shot Xykon at level 16?
The problem with it is the fact that you'll most likely only use it in final battles but final battles are generally against powerful spellcasters (or Gish builds) and a few mooks (and if you use this twice everything dies)! No save, no attack roll, no SR, no immunity.
Not too sure how to balance it I'm afraid. Sorry.:smallfrown:

Hmm... Hellfire was supposed to be an attack devastating both for the user and the target, but you are saying that it is overpowered? Part of it is that yes, I suppose it would be overpowered against a 16th level wizard with a low constitution, both because of his hit points and his constitution, but against a Monster Manual creature of 16 CR or higher it's not that great. Not sure what to do about that.
Edit: Bumped it to 2d6 Con Damage, but I'm not sure that balances. You know there is a Maneuver that allows you to make a single attack with +100 damage? This isn't much more than that.
Edit #2: I'm making it single target, that should help.

Erevar

2010-02-27, 10:37 PM

you could make it so that if you attack with hellfire you have to make a touch attack against all targets and change the save to reflex so that anyone with evasion can avoid all the damage if they make the save. I think that at least gives a good chance to avoid the damage. Also 2d6 is a bit much especialy if you cant heal it magicaly

GoC

2010-02-27, 10:44 PM

Hmm... Hellfire was supposed to be an attack devastating both for the user and the target, but you are saying that it is overpowered?
Not overpowered as such, it's just that against your typical BBEG it will be a very anti-climatic battle.

Part of it is that yes, I suppose it would be overpowered against a 16th level wizard with a low constitution, both because of his hit points and his constitution, but against a Monster Manual creature of 16 CR or higher it's not that great. Not sure what to do about that.
Try 21st level Lich.:smalltongue:

Edit: Bumped it to 2d6 Con Damage, but I'm not sure that balances. You know there is a Maneuver that allows you to make a single attack with +100 damage? This isn't much more than that.
Edit #2: I'm making it single target, that should help.
No. These are both the wrong approaches (and those manoeuvres have ways to be blocked, either attack roll, SR, fire immunity or something else).
The problem is simple: It ends final battles. Increasing the Con damage won't help here and making it single target still won't help (now it will only EVER be used against the BBEG).
What I'd do is keep the 2d4 Con damage and the multi-attack. Scrap the save for half but make it require a touch attack and let half the damage be resistible fire damage. This way the DM can give the BBEG fire immunity or something similar instead of trying to find a way to boost a Lich's Fort save.

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 10:50 PM

Not overpowered as such, it's just that against your typical BBEG it will be a very anti-climatic battle.

Try 21st level Lich.:smalltongue:

No. These are both the wrong approaches (and those manoeuvres have ways to be blocked, either attack roll, SR, fire immunity or something else).
The problem is simple: It ends final battles. Increasing the Con damage won't help here and making it single target still won't help (now it will only EVER be used against the BBEG).
What I'd do is keep the 2d4 Con damage and the multi-attack. Scrap the save for half but make it require a touch attack and let half the damage be resistible fire damage. This way the DM can give the BBEG fire immunity or something similar instead of trying to find a way to boost a Lich's Fort save.

I completely rewrote it. It is now pretty powerful but to end an encounter you would have to go kamakazi, and if you do so you can't revived without Miracle or Wish.
Edit: Is the new version any good? I'm kind of worried it is not.

Erevar

2010-02-27, 10:56 PM

i really like it good job:smallbiggrin:

Drolyt

2010-02-27, 11:01 PM

I was thinking maybe just 1 point of Con damage to do 1d8/character level? That's still pretty good I guess, but it's weaker than say an empowered delayed blast fireball using that archmage ability to shift energies.

Sir_Chivalry

2010-02-28, 12:19 AM

It's a good gish. The sort of guy who would be a gish.

"Okay students, today you can choose your path, will you choose sword or spell?"

This guy stabs his instructor with a yard of flaming steel.

Latronis

2010-02-28, 12:29 AM

Fortuna

2010-02-28, 12:37 AM

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 12:44 AM

Still a lot of messy multiclassing to get in and still take full progression.

You need at least some levels with full BAB progression (as 3\4HD is only 7@ 10th level) Some way of getting bluff, hide and move silently as class skills +2d6 SA dice and arcane spontaneous spell casting and at least 3 feats(if you have a familiar and one of the other class features) Otherwise it's 4 feats or 5 feats, which many 10th lv character may not have

And ironically Devils have a harder time qualifying for it than humans!

The simplest way is Rogue 3/Sorcerer 1/Fighter, Warblade, or Ranger 6, possibly shuffling that around a bit. A fallen Paladin 6/Sorcerer 1/Blackguard 1 or 2/Ranger or Rogue 1 or 2 can do it as well. A level in some skill monkey class is essentially required because of the skills, but for the Sneak Attack you can either use Rogue or Fallen Paladin/Blackguard or get Assassin's Stance from Tome of Battle somehow; there are probably other ways too, like Sneak Attack Fighter from UA. The familiar requirement is to prevent, say, Beguiler or Bard from getting in instead of Sorcerer, although they can if they really want to. The only way you'd need five feats is if you were going the Weapon Specialization route and for some reason choose something other than Sorcerer for the caster level requirement, and the only way to do that would be either Fighter 4, Warblade 6, or some mix of the two classes, and in that case you would have just enough feats (the only way I can think of for you to screw that up is with Sneak Attack Fighter, but that presents other issues).

Seems lots of good entry options to me.

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 12:55 AM

Wow. You get one heck of a lot if you ever take all ten levels. In particular, Wish with no XP cost 1/day. That is... big, very big. That opens the door to a world of hurt for any opponent because of your NI resources if you sit around for a month.

I added in something I accidentally left out that limits the effectiveness of the wish. It sometimes costs xp/gold to use. I think that should prevent abuse, with those limits it's not really any more powerful than a Miracle spell.

Latronis

2010-02-28, 01:17 AM

the sneak attack variant also lacks those as class skills. Though combining it with the thug variant get's you bluff atleast(and better skillpoints).

Hmm if you wanted too (and to abuse the cleric list being added)

Feats at 1st: Combat Casting, Eschew Materials
Feat at 3rd: Weapon Focus
Feat at 6th: Leadership
Feat at 9th: Weapon Spec

Human Beguiler 2(yay trapfinding! armoured mage! sneaky spellcasting! and has the skills!)

Human Paragon 3(yay more spellcasting progression, and a bonus feat(right when you qualify for obtain familiar) an ability boost! Adaptive learning would be useful for classes without the skills too)

Sneak Attack Thug 5

4th level spellcasting, +8BAB, +3d6 sneak attack in 10 levels.

With the 10 prc levels you get +18BAB, +7d6 SA, 14th level spellcasting drawn from the beguiler and entire cleric spell list with a bunch of half-fiend esque SPA's. Bonus fighter feats, trapfinding, that's practically a quadruple threat.

Though the entry requirements are a little harsh for gish style characters, you'll generally lose a lot of caster levels

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 01:57 AM

the sneak attack variant also lacks those as class skills. Though combining it with the thug variant get's you bluff atleast(and better skillpoints).

Hmm if you wanted too (and to abuse the cleric list being added)

Feats at 1st: Combat Casting, Eschew Materials
Feat at 3rd: Weapon Focus
Feat at 6th: Leadership
Feat at 9th: Weapon Spec

Human Beguiler 2(yay trapfinding! armoured mage! sneaky spellcasting! and has the skills!)

Human Paragon 3(yay more spellcasting progression, and a bonus feat(right when you qualify for obtain familiar) an ability boost! Adaptive learning would be useful for classes without the skills too)

Sneak Attack Thug 5

4th level spellcasting, +8BAB, +3d6 sneak attack in 10 levels.

Ditching 1 level of Thug for Beguiler would probably be better to gain access to all 8th level or lower cleric spells by 20th level. Also if you can find another source of bonus feats like flaws then you don't need human paragon. Really you aren't trying hard enough, Human Beguiler 2 (Eschew Materials, Combat Casting) Fighter 4 (whatever, leadership) Abjurant Champion 4 (Obtain Familiar) would get you +9 BAB, +2d6 Sneak Attack, and 6th level spellcasting. I'm convinced there are even better ways to do it.

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 01:58 AM

With the 10 prc levels you get +18BAB, +7d6 SA, 14th level spellcasting drawn from the beguiler and entire cleric spell list with a bunch of half-fiend esque SPA's. Bonus fighter feats, trapfinding, that's practically a quadruple threat.

Though the entry requirements are a little harsh for gish style characters, you'll generally lose a lot of caster levels

It's not supposed to be so much a gish as a melee character with some spells.

Latronis

2010-02-28, 02:50 AM

Ditching 1 level of Thug for Beguiler would probably be better to gain access to all 8th level or lower cleric spells by 20th level. Also if you can find another source of bonus feats like flaws then you don't need human paragon. Really you aren't trying hard enough, Human Beguiler 2 (Eschew Materials, Combat Casting) Fighter 4 (whatever, leadership) Abjurant Champion 4 (Obtain Familiar) would get you +9 BAB, +2d6 Sneak Attack, and 6th level spellcasting. I'm convinced there are even better ways to do it.

Ditching the 5th thug level for beguiler only leaves you +7 BAB (beguiler has 1/2HD) and beguiler doesnt get 8th lv spells until 16th. I did think about abjurant champion but i couldnt be bothered looking up the prereqs to see if it was doable.

It's not supposed to be so much a gish as a melee character with some spells.

Did you think about just giving them a spell list then? The table makes it look like a hybrid.

Realms of Chaos

2010-02-28, 04:10 AM

Ooh, another class. Let's take a look at this one.

Scion of Hell
"Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"
Hit Die
d8.
Requirements
To qualify to become a Scion of Hell, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment
Lawful Evil.
Base Attack Bonus
+8.
Skills
Bluff 13 ranks, Hide 13 ranks, Move Silently 13 ranks.
Feats
Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Leadership
Spells
Arcane Caster Level 1st; must be capable of casting spells Spontaneously.
Class Features
Sneak Attack +2d6
Special
Must posses the ability to summon a familiar.
Special
Must possess one of the following: the Weapon Specialization Feat, the Improved Combat Style class feature, the Smite Good class feature usable 2/day, or the Ki Strike (magic) class feature.
Class Skills
The Scion of Hell's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level
8 + Int Modifier.

Ah, difficult requirements. Not much of a balancing measure (some campaigns start at high levels, meaning that you may never have to play as a sorcerer/monk/rogue that is struggling to qualify) but it is nice to have.
One thing that I'll happily state early on is that this is a pretty good BBEG class from what I glanced at earlier. It's a bit overburdened with abilities but that's okay because players aren't intended to use it.
Actually, speaking of such, why not require that feat from the Fiendish Codex II (Brand of the Nine Hells, was it)? It can normally only be acquired by devils but it specifically states that others can gain the feat under extraordinary circumstances (AKA when the DM okays it). :smallwink:

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the Scion of Hell prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Scion of Hell gains no proficiency in any weapons or armor.
Spells
When a new Scion of Hell level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spontaneous arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.
Expanded Spell List
A Scion of Hell adds the Cleric spell list to the list of spells he may choose as spells known at each level.

This may have been asked already but how does Expanded Spell List work in combination with the Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Beguiler (spontaneous arcane casters with access to their entire spell lists). They can qualify for this class by taking Obtain Familiar.

Spell-Like Abilities
A Scion of Hell gains various spell-like abilities over the course of his transformation, as noted on Table: The Scion of Hell. Caster Level for these abilities is 10 + Spell Level + The Scion of Hell's Charisma Modifier.

I think that you meant to state that your Caster Level equals your character level and the Save DCs are 10 + Spell Level + Charisma modifier.

Bonus Feats
A Scion of Hell gains a bonus feat at 1st level and every third level thereafter (4th, 7th, and 10th). This feat must be either a fighter bonus feat or a vile feat. Scion of Hell levels stack with fighter levels (and effective fighter levels) for the purpose of taking feats that require a minimum fighter level.

And we get some feats for our troubles, probably to help offset the ones we spent just getting into this class. :smalltongue:
A pretty decent ability and nothing wrong with it. Good call with having your level stack with effective fighter levels (some people just don't remember the warblade).

Diabolic Smite (Su)
1/day a Scion of Hell can make a Diabolic Smite Attack. He adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per class level. He can use this ability 2/day at 5th level and 3/day at 10th level.

So it's a smite that works on anybody. Interesting and kind of flavorful.

Diabolic Transformation
As a Scion of Hell progresses in level he begins to take on the traits of devils, eventually gaining all the powers of a Half-Fiend and some of the powers of the Baatezu. As part of this process he begins to appear more and more fiendish as he grows in level.
A Scion of Hell's ability scores improve as he grows in diabolic power, as detailed on Table: The Scion of Hell above.
At 1st level a Scion of Hell begins his diabolic transformation by growing extremely sharp claws and teeth, granting him two claw attacks dealing 1d4 damage and a bite attack dealing 1d6 damage. Damage is for medium creatures.
At 2nd level a Scion of Hell grows dark red scales that improve his natural armor bonus to AC by +1. If he did not previously posses natural armor he gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
At 3rd level a Scion of Hell's eyes begin to glow a bright red. He gains Darkvision 60 ft.
At 4th level a Scion of Hell grows bat-like wings. He gains a fly speed equal to his base land speed (average maneuverability).
At 5th level a Scion of Hell's body becomes so infused with evil that non-magical weapons can no longer damage him. He gains Damage Reduction 5/magic. Moreover his natural attacks now penetrate Damage Reduction as if they were magic weapons.
At 6th level a Scion of Hell's metabolism is such that he is Immune to Poison.
At 7th level a Scion of Hell's body becomes resistant to elemental attacks, granting him Acid Resistance 10, Cold Resistance 10, Electricity Resistance 10, and Fire Resistance 10.
At 8th level a Scion of Hell gains the ability to Smite Good 1/day, adding her Charisma Modifier on the attack roll and her character level to the damage roll.
At 9th level a Scion of Hell's dark power is so great that magical attacks might fail to affect him. He gains Spell Resistance equal to his character level +10.
Finally, at 10th level a Scion of Hell achieves Apotheosis, becoming a fiend in true. He becomes an Outsider with the Baatezu, Evil, Lawful, and Native subtypes. He ceases aging and will never die of old age. His Damage Reduction improves to 10/Good and he gains Immunity to Fire. He gains the See In Darkness (Su) ability, allowing him to see in darkness of any kind, even that created by a Deeper Darkness spell. He also gains Telepathy out to 100 ft. Finally a Scion of Hell that has achieved Apotheosis can be raised or resurrected as though he were a humanoid; his body and soul are separate, and he suffers the fate of a humanoid when he dies. For the same reason he may travel between the planes freely, which gives him an advantage over other devils.

And you incorporated the acolyte of the skin. :smallbiggrin:
One thing that I'm noticing is that you probably don't need to grant this ability at every level. You could probably get away with something like the following to cut down a bit on abilities.
Level 1: Gain natural weapons that strike as evil and magical and DR X/good, where X is your level. (nothing too powerful for level 11)
Level 2: Grant See in Darkness. (it hardly seems like a capstone ability and doesn't break the game in any way).
Level 4: Fly Speed. (Precisely where you put it).
Level 6: Poison Immunity and Energy Resistances. (None of these abilities really mean much at such a high level but bundling them together gives you a nice infernal gift basket of goodies).
Level 8: Telepathy. (Mindbenders do this much earlier so it's hardly a powerhouse. Maybe this should be switched with my proposed level 6 ability).
Level 10: Become Outsider and gain Immunity to fire + Spell Resistance. (These abilties seem most capstone worthy out of all of them, ImO).

Grant each ability score a single +2 bonus (one for each level when this is given) and you're good to go.

Even if you choose not to use this, consider changing your smite good ability so that you don't waste a daily use of your Diabolic smite if you miss on an attack roll against a good or chaotic creature. This way, you don't have to keep track of multiple smite abilities.

Diabolic Cohort
At second level the Scion of Hell must dismiss any cohort she may have and replace it with a devil. Instead of using effective character level and leadership score to determine how powerful a cohort the character can attract a Scion of Hell always attracts a devil whose CR is 4 lower than his character level. This devil has the elite array and can gain class levels (each level adds 1 to it's CR) but does not carry magic items and does not get a share of experience or treasure; the cohort is always of a CR 4 lower than the character and levels up automatically when the character does.

Although I understand giving up your familiar, I'd think that this ability should be optional. Some people may be quite attached to the mechanics or personality of thier cohort and not want to give them up, even if the devil is superior. I could see devils offering to become your cohort if asked or even being sent to see if you need a cohort but I don't see why they somehow force your former companion to step down as your righthand man.

Rebuke Devils (Su)
This ability, gained at 3rd level, is like the ability of an evil cleric to rebuke undead except that it effects devils instead of undead. The Scion of Hell's effective cleric level for purposes of this effect is equal to his class level x2.

So between your fiendish companion, fiendish cohort, fiendish leadership, and rebuke devils, you are trying to amass an army of devils much as a necromancer creates an army of undead.
...
Wow. As far as I know, this is the first class that even tries to do that. A couple classes give you fiendish slaves, summons, or individual minions but none give you the tools to form an army.
Good work.

Hellfire (Sp)
At will a Scion of Hell of 6th level or higher may summon Hellfire from within the bowels of Hell itself as a standard action. This Hellfire draws on the Scion of Hell's own life force. To use the effect the Scion of Hell must take at least 1 point of Constitution Damage; he may take up to his character level in Constitution Damage for this effect, even if the damage would kill him. This damage cannot be avoided in any way and cannot be magically healed, but recovers normally over time. For every point of Constitution Damage he suffers he may target a single creature with this effect. The attack deals 1d8 points of damage per character level of the Scion of Hell plus 1d8 points of damage per point of Constitution Damage taken (Fortitude Save DC 20 + Scion of Hell's Charisma Modifier for half). This damage is not fire damage and cannot be reduced with energy resistance or immunity. This is a Conjuration effect not subject to spell resistance. A creature slain by this effect cannot be revived by anything short of a Miracle or Wish. Similarly, if the Scion of Hell dies using this effect he cannot be revived by anything short of a Miracle or Wish. This effect is the equivalent of a 10th level spell.

A rough equivalent to an epic spell and we're just over halfway through. The damage seems to be reasonable but you might want to add a range. Whether the range is Long range, within your line of sight, or on the same plane of existance (or just anywhere) is up to you but it should be written down.

Diabolic Leadership
Starting at 8th level a Scion of Hell has grown powerful enough to attract followers from the legions of hell. The Scion of Hell retains his mortal followers which form his material plane cult and also gains an equal number of diabolic followers. To determine how powerful a devil a Scion of Hell can attract as a follower use challenge rating instead of level or effective character level.
In addition, starting at 3rd level a Scion of Hell adds his class level to his leadership score.

I could picture this guy taking that leadership feat from heroes of battle that lets you double your followers. Lots of fun.
Some people may complain that your devils are infinitely more powerful than your NPC-class normal followers, that you can gain infinite free castings on some spells through their SLAs. By level 18, however, the spells you gain access to in this way aren't a bit deal so it seems okay.

Vile Strike (Su)
1/day a Scion of Hell of 9th level or higher may make a Vile Strike as a Full-Round Action. The Scion of Hell charges up to twice his normal land speed and makes a single melee attack, adding +2 to the attack roll as normal for a charge and dealing an additional 1d6 points of damage per point of Charisma bonus the Scion of Hell possesses. Moreover the opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC for this attack and the Scion of Hell may add his Sneak Attack damage to the attack, even if the target is normally immune to Sneak Attack Damage. Finally, all damage dealt by this attack is Vile damage.

Even though this ability looks kind of wierd at first glance (all martial 1/day abilities gained at late levels look wierd to me, I guess), this thing is pretty essential in that it helps you make your final battle using the BBEG more memorable. Start the battle with Vile Strike, Follow up with Helfire, and clean up with Spells, SLAs, and smites.

Wish (Sp)
At 10th level the Scion of Hell becomes capable of casting Wish as a spell-like ability 1/day. There are some restrictions beyond what a normal spell-like ability would have:
Unlike most spell-like abilities Wish has a verbal component.
Wish also has experience and material components, but only under the following circumstances (most other uses of this ability have no experience or material cost):
If you wish for nonmagical items (up to 25,000 GP in value) you must pay 5,000 experience.
If you wish for a magic item you pay twice the normal experience cost for crafting that item.
If you duplicate a spell with an experience cost you must pay that cost.
If you duplicate a spell with a valuable material component worth more than 10,000 GP you must provide that material component.
If you attempt an effect more powerful than those allowed in the Wish spells description you must pay 5,000 experience points, assuming the Wish actually works.

Once again, we get a 1/day ability more than suited for a big climactic battle. You may want to alter that last part so that you spend the XP if you attempt an effect not specifically allowed by the Wish feat instead of attempting "an effect more powerful than those allowed" by Wish (which is open to heavy interpretation)

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 11:21 AM

Ooh, another class. Let's take a look at this one.
Ah, difficult requirements. Not much of a balancing measure (some campaigns start at high levels, meaning that you may never have to play as a sorcerer/monk/rogue that is struggling to qualify) but it is nice to have.
One thing that I'll happily state early on is that this is a pretty good BBEG class from what I glanced at earlier. It's a bit overburdened with abilities but that's okay because players aren't intended to use it.
Actually, speaking of such, why not require that feat from the Fiendish Codex II (Brand of the Nine Hells, was it)? It can normally only be acquired by devils but it specifically states that others can gain the feat under extraordinary circumstances (AKA when the DM okays it). :smallwink:
I thought about Brand of the Nine Hells, but the problem is flavor. That feat is for servants of powerful devils, this class isn't a servant.

This may have been asked already but how does Expanded Spell List work in combination with the Warmage, Dread Necromancer, and Beguiler (spontaneous arcane casters with access to their entire spell lists). They can qualify for this class by taking Obtain Familiar.
I'll let each individual DM decide whether to allow this or smack the player over the head with the DMG. I personally would rule that it doesn't work (depending on how you interpret "list of spells he may choose as spells known at each level" that's an entirely valid ruling.)

I think that you meant to state that your Caster Level equals your character level and the Save DCs are 10 + Spell Level + Charisma modifier.

Yes, thank you.

And we get some feats for our troubles, probably to help offset the ones we spent just getting into this class. :smalltongue:
A pretty decent ability and nothing wrong with it. Good call with having your level stack with effective fighter levels (some people just don't remember the warblade).
Yeah, I'm allowing several different melee entries but for simplicity the only thing it advances is some feats.

So it's a smite that works on anybody. Interesting and kind of flavorful.
Originally he had both Smite Good and Smite Chaos, this is simpler and just as flavorful.

And you incorporated the acolyte of the skin. :smallbiggrin:
One thing that I'm noticing is that you probably don't need to grant this ability at every level. You could probably get away with something like the following to cut down a bit on abilities.
Level 1: Gain natural weapons that strike as evil and magical and DR X/good, where X is your level. (nothing too powerful for level 11)
Level 2: Grant See in Darkness. (it hardly seems like a capstone ability and doesn't break the game in any way).
Level 4: Fly Speed. (Precisely where you put it).
Level 6: Poison Immunity and Energy Resistances. (None of these abilities really mean much at such a high level but bundling them together gives you a nice infernal gift basket of goodies).
Level 8: Telepathy. (Mindbenders do this much earlier so it's hardly a powerhouse. Maybe this should be switched with my proposed level 6 ability).
Level 10: Become Outsider and gain Immunity to fire + Spell Resistance. (These abilties seem most capstone worthy out of all of them, ImO).
Grant each ability score a single +2 bonus (one for each level when this is given) and you're good to go.
Even if you choose not to use this, consider changing your smite good ability so that you don't waste a daily use of your Diabolic smite if you miss on an attack roll against a good or chaotic creature. This way, you don't have to keep track of multiple smite abilities.
1. Levels 1-9 grant Half-Fiend abilities. The capstone turns the character into an outsider and grants Bateezu traits, representing that he has finally become an actual devil rather than just emulating them. Why would I want to cut down on abiliities? Admittedly it would make the table a little more readable, but I always felt it's nice for a character to gain multiple things every level, even if some are minor. I'm not sure what you mean about Smite Good, but I'll think about it.

Although I understand giving up your familiar, I'd think that this ability should be optional. Some people may be quite attached to the mechanics or personality of thier cohort and not want to give them up, even if the devil is superior. I could see devils offering to become your cohort if asked or even being sent to see if you need a cohort but I don't see why they somehow force your former companion to step down as your righthand man.
You make a good point. I'll probably change it then.

So between your fiendish companion, fiendish cohort, fiendish leadership, and rebuke devils, you are trying to amass an army of devils much as a necromancer creates an army of undead.
...
Wow. As far as I know, this is the first class that even tries to do that. A couple classes give you fiendish slaves, summons, or individual minions but none give you the tools to form an army.
Good work.
Yeah, that was the idea. At epic levels I'm planning on the class eventually gaining huge armies for planar wars.

A rough equivalent to an epic spell and we're just over halfway through. The damage seems to be reasonable but you might want to add a range. Whether the range is Long range, within your line of sight, or on the same plane of existance (or just anywhere) is up to you but it should be written down.
I meant for long range, I'll add that in. Thanks.

I could picture this guy taking that leadership feat from heroes of battle that lets you double your followers. Lots of fun.
Some people may complain that your devils are infinitely more powerful than your NPC-class normal followers, that you can gain infinite free castings on some spells through their SLAs. By level 18, however, the spells you gain access to in this way aren't a bit deal so it seems okay.
You're limited to CR 6 pre-epic, I don't see how it could be that broken.

Even though this ability looks kind of wierd at first glance (all martial 1/day abilities gained at late levels look wierd to me, I guess), this thing is pretty essential in that it helps you make your final battle using the BBEG more memorable. Start the battle with Vile Strike, Follow up with Helfire, and clean up with Spells, SLAs, and smites.
Yep, should be good.

Once again, we get a 1/day ability more than suited for a big climactic battle. You may want to alter that last part so that you spend the XP if you attempt an effect not specifically allowed by the Wish feat instead of attempting "an effect more powerful than those allowed" by Wish (which is open to heavy interpretation)
How should I word it? What I meant was for things like duplicating a spell, or any of the other listed effects you don't need to spend XP, but if you try to do something more powerful you do.

Thanks for the input. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence

2010-02-28, 03:59 PM

The class is interesting, but seems to have a heavy alignment requirement.

I like the notion of somebody becoming fiendish without necessarily becoming evil.

In Dungeon's Savage Tide path, if the character succeeds in becoming the new Prince of Demons after slaying Demogorgon:

They gain the Tanar'ri subtype, and become native to the Abyss (88th layer.)
They gain control over the morphic ability of that layer.
They change to a Chaotic or Evil alignment- of their choice.

So- you can become a Demon Prince and still be non-evil. Why not an Archdevil?

The Fiend-blooded prestige class in Heroes of Horror (Requirement: any non-good) shows a slow development of "fiendish bloodline"- the character's familiar gains the fiendish template- but does not have to change alignment.

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 04:11 PM

hamishspence

2010-02-28, 04:14 PM

Drolyt

2010-02-28, 04:26 PM

True- alignment requirements are more a 3.5 ed thing than a 4th ed one (4th ed basically drops most alignment requirements)

The notion of a nonevil hero becoming a scion of Hell- maybe chosen by other devils, rather than choosing themselves, is an interesting one- but maybe not appropriate for some campaigns.

Right, and at least in my experience if you have a good character concept DMs will waive things like alignment restrictions if it makes sense. I had a Chaotic Good Paladin before Unearthed Arcana came out for example.