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slyfox99
2010-02-26, 08:31 PM
Is there a book for 4e which details levels and component costs for rituals such as "Create Undead," etc? Open Grave says that some undead are created through foul rituals, but not much else... By the same token, what about demon-summoning?

Blazen
2010-02-26, 08:36 PM
Not yet. Wotc seems to be really against "evil" stuff for players. They want people to play nice. Although I guess you could take the Raise dead ritual, lower the cost and give the raised body 0 Cha, Wis, and Int.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-26, 08:57 PM
Yeah, all the Evil stuff is to be done via DM Fiat.

Fortunately, the cost for a Ritual of a given level is relatively standard so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out component costs; casting time can be taken from similar spells (Raise Dead and Planar Gate). Summoning Demon-wise, I'd require a Teleportation Circle at the very least.

oxybe
2010-02-26, 09:02 PM
it's not about putting evil thing. it's about the economy of actions. i posted this on the WotC about someone asking about a potential necromancer class for 4th ed:


depends on the kind of Necromancer.

if we're talking about Necromancer (raises an army of undead), we kinda have that already: invoker with all his ghostly summons, maybe multi into beastmaster ranger for some sort of permanant skeleton/sombie thing.

the problem with summon-necros is that they mess with the economy of actions in a bad way.

lots of weak undead is more of a hindering terrain then anything else. if their attack bonus is so small they can't contribute, the best they can hope for is waste the enemy's time. if their attack bonus is high enough that they can hit with some consistency, massing them in a group means they can slaughter with ease should their damage be significant enough. should their damage be piddly, we fall back into the "hindering terrain" territory.

if we go the "a few strong undead" route we run into a "3.5 druid & his companion" issue... ie: can the few strong replace an existing PC or not? the beastmaster ranger says no, but he only controls one beast. summon necros traditionally have a host at their command, so can that host replace the fighter, rogue, cleric or the necro himself?

the other Necromancer is the "debuffer". which we kinda have. sortof. the current Warlock is the "single target debuffer" while the Wizard is the "mass target debuffer", where refluffing some abilities can give you a necromancer-type effect. restraining effects are skeletal hands grasping from the ground, slowing effects are the ground becoming sodden with thick, sticky clots of blood, ect...

i'm VERY curious how they're going to handle "Necromancer"


undead are tricky business. i have no problem with wizards waiting & testing and getting it right on the first go.

Telok
2010-02-27, 02:31 AM
There are two necromantic rituals to date. Lich Transformation and Undead Servitor.

The servitor is an undead minion with 11 in all defenses and cannot make attacks. Also, some issues with the Raven Queen aside, turning yourself into a lich is no longer an evil act. Becoming a lich is expensive, but it's available at level 14 and you only need the Ritual Caster feat for it.

As classes the closest you can get to the necromancers from previous editions are warlocks, shaman, and beast rangers (refluffed).

slyfox99
2010-02-27, 10:25 AM
Ok, the beast ranger bit confuses me lol... Is that in one of the Martial Power books?

oxybe
2010-02-27, 11:27 AM
Ok, the beast ranger bit confuses me lol... Is that in one of the Martial Power books?

martial power 1. to use an example of the reflavoring, our sunday GM lets the beastmaster have a "scorpion" as a pet, but it's really a "serpent" or "spider" (i forget which) since there are no stats for scorps. for a zombie or skeleton, you could use the stats for a "Wolf" or "Cat". just file off the serial numbers, call it undead and you're pretty much good to go.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-27, 11:39 AM
There are two necromantic rituals to date. Lich Transformation and Undead Servitor.

The servitor is an undead minion with 11 in all defenses and cannot make attacks. Also, some issues with the Raven Queen aside, turning yourself into a lich is no longer an evil act. Becoming a lich is expensive, but it's available at level 14 and you only need the Ritual Caster feat for it.

As classes the closest you can get to the necromancers from previous editions are warlocks, shaman, and beast rangers (refluffed).

Actually, becoming a lich via an epic destiny isn't an evil thing, because it's specifically a version of the transformation that doesn't have to go through Orcus.

the Ritual is the other way, mentioned by the Epic destiny. Using the ritual (if your DM even lets you, of course) means you are explicitely dealing with Orcus. So, a little Evil.

Also, 'expensive' doesn't begin to cover it. :D

I wouldn't expect to see any level 14 liches without finding one embarrassed DM and a whole clan of dead Dragons.

hamishspence
2010-02-27, 12:53 PM
The epic destiny version is the Archlich.

The Lich version in MM requires you to call on Orcus (and be 14th level)
Interestingly, the DMG Lich Template only requires the creature to be 11th level.

Telok
2010-02-28, 03:23 AM
version in MM requires you to call on Orcus

Ah, rules and fluff difference. There is no rule making the ritual evil or associating it with any paticular god. Individual DM house rules may differ.

Edit: In theory I think the ritual could be cast on another person. Or not. Need to check. A ritual scroll would be an interesting find.

Lamech
2010-02-28, 09:59 AM
Lich Transformation, simply calls on Orcus, it was probably made by him or something. If your worried about it being evil you can always kill Orcus in a few levels.
There is also Dark Gift of the Undying. You would need to catch a vampire lord to have him cast if for you, but if you can pull that off you can get an undead army by killing commoners.

Swordgleam
2010-02-28, 01:43 PM
There's quite a few "evil" rituals in Azagar's Book of Rituals from Goodman Games. I'm not sure if it has any specifically for creating undead, but I know there's at least a handful with necromantic flavor.