turn based not an option anymore?

[AeonWarior]

Is it just me or is the number of turn based games in development and released recently dropped to almost nothing in like 3 years?

I mean all the games I've seen are like borderlands, TF2, WoW, call of duty, etc.
in that there all instant short bursts of enjoyment and not something that takes any dedication to. Is it just the wants have changed or am I missed somthing.

anyway the only recent turn based game I found was this (http://ufo.ufo-extraterrestrials.com/)

[Mando Knight]

Yes. Civilization 5. Watch. Wait. Anticipate.

[Zevox]

Turn based is still the standard for JRPGs. With the exception of a few Japanese action RPG series (Kingdom Hearts and "Tales of" being the two that come to mind), that's pretty much the universal format for them. Actually, to my knowledge, they've always been the main genre for turn-based combat.

Just to give one recent example, one of my favorite games from just last year was a turn-based JRPG for the DS. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor.

Zevox

[Flickerdart]

The bulk of Total War is turn-based, except for the battles which I auto-resolve anyway because they take too long. Napoleon just came out, and Empire is new enough; both are pretty swell.

[AeonWarior]

Just to give one recent example, one of my favorite games from just last year was a turn-based JRPG for the DS. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor.

Zevox

doh I completely forgot that game it was awsome

[Rockphed]

Elemental:war of magic (http://www.elementalgame.com/) is currently in development over at Stardock. It looks pretty good.

Personally, I'm really happy about the new hex-grid civilization. Now if only somebody would make a good, hex-gridded, space game with turn based combat. Then I could stop being annoyed at Malfador Machinations.

[KBF]

You know, if the only genres you look at are FPS and MMO, yeah you're not going to find turn based games. As others have said, look into the JRPG or turn-based-strategy genres. You won't see them advertised as much, because most of the US mainstream market aren't the same gamers that enjoyed those kinds of thinking games. Not that there's anything wrong with instant gratification.

[AeonWarior]

You know, if the only genres you look at are FPS and MMO, yeah you're not going to find turn based games. As others have said, look into the JRPG or turn-based-strategy genres. You won't see them advertised as much, because most of the US mainstream market aren't the same gamers that enjoyed those kinds of thinking games. Not that there's anything wrong with instant gratification.

I know I just noticed the lack of advertising has increased more in recent years

[Vitruviansquid]

As far as I understand it, Russia's been putting out some high quality turn based games in the past couple of years as well. You've got Heroes of Might and Magic 5 (and expansions), the King's Bounty remake and its sequel, the King Arthur Roleplaying Wargame (I'm pretty sure its battles are in real-time, like the Total War series, though), Fantasy Wars and Elven Legacy , and I think Disciples 3 is on the horizon.

In any case, I wouldn't characterize TBS as being dead as much as it is... niche.

[chiasaur11]

Dangit, I was going to mention King's Bounty.

Well, it got mentioned is the important thing.

[UglyPanda]

Since the Atari, most video games aren't turn based. Nothing has really changed.

You're also committing some logical errors here:

Borderlands - FPS, never turn-based
TF2 - FPS, never turn-based
WoW - MMORPG, 99% of the time isn't turn based.
Call of duty - FPS, never turn-based

If you really want turns, pick up a JRPG or a 4X game. Or start playing stuff in the SRPG department, like Fire Emblem or Advance Wars.

[warty goblin]

As far as I understand it, Russia's been putting out some high quality turn based games in the past couple of years as well. You've got Heroes of Might and Magic 5 (and expansions), the King's Bounty remake and its sequel, the King Arthur Roleplaying Wargame (I'm pretty sure its battles are in real-time, like the Total War series, though), Fantasy Wars and Elven Legacy , and I think Disciples 3 is on the horizon.

In any case, I wouldn't characterize TBS as being dead as much as it is... niche.

And I cannot recommend Elven Legacy enough if you like turn based tactical affairs*. The interface is absolutely wonderful, the unit interactions are (for the most part) reasonably sensible, and use of terrain is absolutely, utterly key. Plus it's got a good story, and manages to be difficult without feeling unfair (except for the mission with De Lande, that one can burn in hell). Fantasy Wars is also good, but the interface isn't quite as polished, and I don't find the human army quite as fun as the elven.

*If you're looking for strategy, you'll really have to go elsewhere, as EL and FW are very focused on destroying the enemy in good old fashioned face to face combat.

[Dogmantra]

You know, if the only genres you look at are FPS and MMO, yeah you're not going to find turn based games.

I... I want a turn based FPS now. I don't care how it would work. I just want it, dammit.

[chiasaur11]

I... I want a turn based FPS now. I don't care how it would work. I just want it, dammit.

My gut is telling me it happened once or twice.

Sadly, my gut refuses to give details. Stupid gut.

Edit: AH-HA! Doom RPG, for phones. Not sure there aren't others, but that's one. Gut, you're forgiven, but I'm keeping an eye on you.

[Gralamin]

My gut is telling me it happened once or twice.

Sadly, my gut refuses to give details. Stupid gut.

Edit: AH-HA! Doom RPG, for phones. Not sure there aren't others, but that's one. Gut, you're forgiven, but I'm keeping an eye on you.

Someone on the IRC suggested This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqRPYQAjWsc&feature=PlayList&p=01D5415DAC70D94C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) as a close version.

[DwarvenExodus]

I... I want a turn based FPS now. I don't care how it would work. I just want it, dammit.


Something along the lines of the good ol' dungeon crawling dos games (EOtB)?

EDIT: Ninja'd

[AeonWarior]

Since the Atari, most video games aren't turn based. Nothing has really changed.

You're also committing some logical errors here:

Borderlands - FPS, never turn-based
TF2 - FPS, never turn-based
WoW - MMORPG, 99% of the time isn't turn based.
Call of duty - FPS, never turn-based

If you really want turns, pick up a JRPG or a 4X game. Or start playing stuff in the SRPG department, like Fire Emblem or Advance Wars.

I know I was going to include an RTS in the list but I spaced.

true I havent developed an eye for hard to find games yet but I keep looking



Someone on the IRC suggested This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqRPYQAjWsc&feature=PlayList&p=01D5415DAC70D94C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) as a close version.

dude that's awesome

[Shyftir]

By the nature of being an RTS its also not turn-based... Real-Time Strategy.

For somewhat old school but fun turn based stuff try the Front Mission games.

[Dogmantra]

I know I was going to include an RTS in the list but I spaced.

So you were going to put a genre defined by the fact it is real time in your list of games that aren't turn based? :smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

Someone on the IRC suggested This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqRPYQAjWsc&feature=PlayList&p=01D5415DAC70D94C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) as a close version.

Much more what I was thinking, really.

Although, and I may be wrong, weren't there some older games with superficially similar systems other than Worms?

[Brother Oni]

There's Atlantica Online (http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/default.asp) which is a turn based MMO (the combat is turn based, but the running around world map is real time).

[Cespenar]

The Might and Magic series has a turn-based option, which turns the game into the closest thing to a "turn based FPS".

And yes, even if it's a RPG, most combats are played out like a FPS.

[lord_khaine]

I must say i have personaly also been disapointed in the number of turnbased games that are comming out, though of course it can be that none of the games i really want to get my hands on (jrpg) reaches europe.

Still, it seems they have made a new Vandal heart game for the PS3 network, and i recently found this game as well http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/index.htm

[factotum]

Edit: AH-HA! Doom RPG, for phones. Not sure there aren't others, but that's one. Gut, you're forgiven, but I'm keeping an eye on you.

Isn't there a Doom roguelike as well? Never actually played it so don't know if it can really be described as an FPS, but hey, it's BASED on one... :smallsmile:

[Lord of Rapture]

And I cannot recommend Elven Legacy enough if you like turn based tactical affairs*. The interface is absolutely wonderful, the unit interactions are (for the most part) reasonably sensible, and use of terrain is absolutely, utterly key. Plus it's got a good story, and manages to be difficult without feeling unfair (except for the mission with De Lande, that one can burn in hell). Fantasy Wars is also good, but the interface isn't quite as polished, and I don't find the human army quite as fun as the elven.

*If you're looking for strategy, you'll really have to go elsewhere, as EL and FW are very focused on destroying the enemy in good old fashioned face to face combat.

Huh. For some reason, it hasn't been getting a lot of glowing reviews lately. Good ones, yes, but generally the critical and player reception has been lukewarm.

[Cespenar]

Isn't there a Doom roguelike as well? Never actually played it so don't know if it can really be described as an FPS, but hey, it's BASED on one... :smallsmile:

Yeah, it's DoomRL (http://doom.chaosforge.org/downloads), a pretty good one too.

[shadowxknight]

I... I want a turn based FPS now. I don't care how it would work. I just want it, dammit.

I think Valkyria Chronicles (http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/senjounovalkyria/index.html) can fall under that category.

[Terraoblivion]

Except, you know, for the fact that the shooting is third person until you actually aim.

[Irbis]

As far as I understand it, Russia's been putting out some high quality turn based games in the past couple of years as well. You've got Heroes of Might and Magic 5 (and expansions), the King's Bounty remake and its sequel, the King Arthur Roleplaying Wargame (I'm pretty sure its battles are in real-time, like the Total War series, though), Fantasy Wars and Elven Legacy , and I think Disciples 3 is on the horizon.

This. They aren't advertised where gamers don't like to think, as they don't sell here. In Europe, they come out all the time :smalltongue:

[The Dark Fiddler]

...like borderlands, TF2, WoW, call of duty, etc.
in that there all instant short bursts of enjoyment and not something that takes any dedication to...

wut

WoW players are some of the most dedicated I know and you really need to put lots of time into TF2 (and other shooters, I assume) if you want to get good.

However, I haven't been seeing a lot of turn-based either. Which is a shame, since I love them dearly.

I had a lot of fun with the DS versions of Age of Empire games (AoE 2 and AoE Mythologies) and the Final Fantasy Tactics Advance series (never played FFT itself, so I can't speak for that one). Of course, those aren't exactly new...

And, you know, D&D is turn-based. :smalltongue:

[toasty]

This. They aren't advertised where gamers don't like to think, as they don't sell here. In Europe, they come out all the time :smalltongue:

Three reasons to move to Europe:

Lower Drinking Age. :smalltongue:
More Metal Music
Better Video games

Reasons not to move to Europe:
I need to learn French/German/*insert European Language Here*

[Ashtar]

And the French still have the massively successful (for France anyway) Dofus turn based MMORPG. They just brought it up to version 2.0 and I've gone back to it, at 5€ a month, it's still affordable with enough content.

It's addictive and enjoyable, if sometimes a bit grindy and slow paced in large groups.

One of my pet projects on the game is soloing / duoing "impossible" dungeons for my level. All it takes is some tactics and a battle plan!

[Dogmantra]

Reasons not to move to Europe:
I need to learn French/German/*insert European Language Here*

English perhaps?

[Trixie]

Three reasons to move to Europe:

Lower Drinking Age. :smalltongue:
More Metal Music
Better Video games

Reasons not to move to Europe:
I need to learn French/German/*insert European Language Here*

Not only lower drinking age, we have all the best beer, vines and lots of stronger stuff on Earth, too! :smalltongue:

Why not Russian/Spanish/Polish, though?

And you know, we use English, you know. It is legal/semi-legal language in at least 7-8 countries here. :smallconfused:

[Terraoblivion]

There are basically no European countries where people don't speak English. At least not the northwestern quarter of the continent. And well Britain and Ireland has it as their official language too. Many other countries require you study the local language, though.

[toasty]

There are basically no European countries where people don't speak English. At least not the northwestern quarter of the continent. And well Britain and Ireland has it as their official language too. Many other countries require you study the local language, though.

Ahh I was thinking Mainland Europe, though London does seem a cool city, if expensive.

Its good to know people speak a decent bit English... because my skills at grasping other languages is... poor. I do have 2 years of Latin to help me with any French/Italian/Spanish I might need though.

[Cubey]

Not a lot of people know English in Poland. This changes overtime, but foreigners who don't know Polish will generally have a hard time unless they find a high school or university student to translate for them.

Now, on topic.

Galactic Civilizations II
Super Robot Wars (20+ games, and counting)
Persona series
Suikoden
Fire Emblem
Disgaea
Heroes of Might and Magic V

Yeah, I'd say turn based gaming is doing fine. I like both turn based and twitch, though. So I'm okay either way.

[Terraoblivion]

London is awesome and not really more expensive than the Netherlands or Scandinavia. And when i say awesome i mean the most awesome city i have ever visited out of well over twenty with a million+ inhabitants.

[Klose_the_Sith]

London is awesome and not really more expensive than the Netherlands or Scandinavia. And when i say awesome i mean the most awesome city i have ever visited out of well over twenty with a million+ inhabitants.

May I inquire why you found such enjoyment in it? I was there recently and found nothing of the sort - just terrible food, people and shops.

[warty goblin]

Huh. For some reason, it hasn't been getting a lot of glowing reviews lately. Good ones, yes, but generally the critical and player reception has been lukewarm.

I can't really explain the player reception, but I suspect the critical one is because EL is a quite difficult and fairly long game, with a story that doesn't really start to pick up until halfway through or so. There were multiple missions that took me multiple tries to beat- I'd guess it took me ten full stop restarts to beat the last mission for example, and although it was by far the hardest, it wasn't the only one that required frequent do-overs. If I was trying to beat the game on a schedule, it'd be a nightmare compared to something like Call of Duty, or even Civilization.

It's not that complex of a game, but success requires optimizing your tactics to a degree that I don't think many games these days demand. And most of the tactics required aren't the usual sort of 'activate abilities A, B, C, win' that so many games boil down to anymore. I loved it because it managed to scratch the Age of Wonders itch, but was still definitely it's own thing.

[Terraoblivion]

The life and the diversity, Klose. The way the city more than any other place is the city of tomorrow, never standing still and never growing old and set in its ways. The excellent museums and the way that they don't leave them and their historical buildings to be old and musty, but presents them well for the public in ways exemplary for the rest of Europe.

And the way that if you know how to look it has the best opportunities for food in Europe. Just stay away from fish'n'chips vendors and use your common sense. I really never had problems finding food there, so i cannot say how i did it.

[factotum]

Not a lot of people know English in Poland.

Might be because all the Poles who speak English are working in the UK! :smallsmile:

[warty goblin]

The life and the diversity, Klose. The way the city more than any other place is the city of tomorrow, never standing still and never growing old and set in its ways. The excellent museums and the way that they don't leave them and their historical buildings to be old and musty, but presents them well for the public in ways exemplary for the rest of Europe.

And the way that if you know how to look it has the best opportunities for food in Europe. Just stay away from fish'n'chips vendors and use your common sense. I really never had problems finding food there, so i cannot say how i did it.

I'm not much of a city person, but I liked London the few times I've visited. Wouldn't want to live there, but it'd rank fairly high in the list of cities that I wouldn't mind moving to that much.

[Dr. Bath]

The life and the diversity, Klose. The way the city more than any other place is the city of tomorrow, never standing still and never growing old and set in its ways. The excellent museums and the way that they don't leave them and their historical buildings to be old and musty, but presents them well for the public in ways exemplary for the rest of Europe.

And the way that if you know how to look it has the best opportunities for food in Europe. Just stay away from most fish'n'chips vendors and use your common sense. I really never had problems finding food there, so i cannot say how i did it.

Fixed that for you. There are a load of fantastic food places in ole London town though. As long as you steer a little clear of the tourist hot-spots.

We not all that bad, Klose! Just grumpy :smalltongue:

Anyway anyway. I bought FF tactics advance 2 recently and it's pretty good fun. The plot is flimsier than previous tactics games though thus far, which is a little disappointing. Still fun though! Despite stupid judge rules. Damn you judges.

[Prime32]

Might be because all the Poles who speak English are working in the UK! :smallsmile:Don't be silly. At least half of them are working in Ireland. :smalltongue:

...and many of the ones who don't speak English. Some places offer services in three languages now - English, Irish and Polish. (and Irish is just there as a formality, since no-one really speaks it)

[Trixie]

Not a lot of people know English in Poland. This changes overtime, but foreigners who don't know Polish will generally have a hard time unless they find a high school or university student to translate for them.

Nah, every tourist I met I was able to speak with :smalltongue:


The life and the diversity, Klose. The way the city more than any other place is the city of tomorrow, never standing still and never growing old and set in its ways. The excellent museums and the way that they don't leave them and their historical buildings to be old and musty, but presents them well for the public in ways exemplary for the rest of Europe.

And the way that if you know how to look it has the best opportunities for food in Europe. Just stay away from fish'n'chips vendors and use your common sense. I really never had problems finding food there, so i cannot say how i did it.

I think you're thinking of Paris, there :smalltongue:

[Sholos]

Not only lower drinking age, we have all the best beer, vines and lots of stronger stuff on Earth, too! :smalltongue:

Why not Russian/Spanish/Polish, though?

And you know, we use English, you know. It is legal/semi-legal language in at least 7-8 countries here. :smallconfused:

"vines"? I'm assuming you meant "wines", and if you're talking about French wines, well... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_%28wine%29) Agreed on the beer and liquor, though. Nothing beats Germany and Scotland and Ireland.

[Trixie]

"vines"? I'm assuming you meant "wines",

Yeah. Blame my spellchecker :smalltongue:


and if you're talking about French wines, well... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_%28wine%29)

[shrug] YPB? They picked 6 best US wines against 4 good French ones, used laughable methodology, and yet, all 4 French ones landed in the fist 6 spots. Also, most judges consistently picked French one for top spot. And all this after French Wine industry was ruined by bugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_French_wine_blight) someone from America carried into Europe. Supposedly, these from before beat everything made afterwards, as some rare and unique species disappeared overnight.

Plus, French wines are overrated, yes. By "European" I also meant Italian and Crimean wines, the later of which consistently beat French wines and champagnes (it was even made by imported wine masters) in competitions during the Tzars and on rare occasions Soviet made ones were brought to France. Then, there are Georgian and Armenian ones, though both countries are on continent's border. Europe isn't one country, you know. We have both quality and quantity.

So, okay - there are a few very good wineries in US. Sadly, only a few. There are thousands of such high level wineries in Europe. I personally visited about a dozen, I know :smalltongue:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Elemental:war of magic (http://www.elementalgame.com/) is currently in development over at Stardock. It looks pretty good.
.

I can't wait for that game...

[Vitruviansquid]

This. They aren't advertised where gamers don't like to think, as they don't sell here. In Europe, they come out all the time :smalltongue:

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's not go nuts here.

Maybe turn based games are more popular in Europe while real-time games are more popular in the US. That doesn't mean turn based games inherently require more thought than real time games or that that, as a whole, one side likes to think more than the other side. That's a pretty far leap taken pretty hastily.

[Nero24200]

(and Irish is just there as a formality, since no-one really speaks it)[/SIZE]

Or the native Scottish Language either. I know a few Scots who havn't even heard the name of the langauge :smallfrown:

Back on Topic: I'd strongly recommend Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. It's turn-based and has alot of replayability (if that is actually a word).

You gain customisable henchmen, with newer ones constantly poping up, so you can easily make a party you'd like just by picking the ones you want and waiting for specific combinations if desired (for instance, when I first played I wanted an all moogle group, so I pretty much accepted any "X want's to join" requests until I had enough moogles to work on their own).

[Inhuman Bot]

I mean all the games I've seen are WoW,
in that there all instant short bursts of enjoyment and not something that takes any dedication to. Is it just the wants have changed or am I missed somthing.


Ow.

This part isn't exactly true.

[Terraoblivion]

No i was thinking of London. While i haven't been to Paris recently, i have kept up with what is generally going on and talked to people who have been there. The Parisian museums are as old fashioned as the ones in Berlin, despite having just as great collections. They also cost money to enter. As for the food, it is a lot easier to find good food in London than in Paris, in all price ranges. It is also locked in a three-way struggle with New York and Tokyo for being the gourmet capital of the world. It was winning a few years ago.

And French wine is highly overrated. In general Italian and Californian wine are the ones that usually do the best in international tests and comparisons.

[deuxhero]

Age of Decadence (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/) has a released TB combat demo that is pretty fun (though as an indie title,we may or may not see the actual game).

[Klose_the_Sith]

You know what's a good turn based system? The one in KotOR. I just wish it seemed likely that I'd ever get to look upon it's smiling face in a new context, but it looks like there's only so much I can pretend that TOR doesn't exist :smallfrown:

(Spoilered due to complete irrelevance)


The life and the diversity, Klose. The way the city more than any other place is the city of tomorrow, never standing still and never growing old and set in its ways.

Every building, everywhere, looked the same. The people reminded me of the oppressed masses you find saturating popular fiction and combined such delightful traits as ugliness and unfriendliness. I once asked someone for directions, but was being glared at profusely the second I said 'hello'. He wasn't in any hurry, but he already loathed the idea of giving anyone else the time of day.

Maybe if you learn it's ways and byways then it opens up a little, but I'm used to a better class of average citizen, so I guess I was just disappointed by the average London person I encountered.

Then the music. Oh god, not the music.


The excellent museums and the way that they don't leave them and their historical buildings to be old and musty, but presents them well for the public in ways exemplary for the rest of Europe.

They did a nice job of this, certainly. Doesn't change the fact that that's a day or two's touristy entertainment at most. Not the sort of thing that appeals to me.


And the way that if you know how to look it has the best opportunities for food in Europe. Just stay away from fish'n'chips vendors and use your common sense. I really never had problems finding food there, so i cannot say how i did it.

I didn't have "fish'n'chips" (it should never be referred to as such, it is fish and chips) once during said visit.

I've eaten from London's restaurants, pubs, self-titled bistros, cafe's and yes, a couple of fast food places. All disappointed, in almost every way (came across a quite nice pub in Brentford but I digress).


Fixed that for you. There are a load of fantastic food places in ole London town though. As long as you steer a little clear of the tourist hot-spots.

Eating at any places that seem reasonable enough is apparently not a decent enough method to choose an eatery. Such is life, in London anyway.


We not all that bad, Klose! Just grumpy :smalltongue:

I'm grumpy lots, but that doesn't stop me from being a reasonable enough person in my dealings. I suppose that in England there's a tax on happiness or something.

[chiasaur11]

How did you find out about the happiness tax, anyway?

I thought that was a secret.

[Wreckingrocc]

As I see it, shooters are rapidly becoming wildly popular, and I'm enjoying them thoroughly... Though I would also like to see more turn-based games.

Perhaps developers should make a game based around honorable, early rifle combat.

[Terraoblivion]

Every building, everywhere, looked the same. The people reminded me of the oppressed masses you find saturating popular fiction and combined such delightful traits as ugliness and unfriendliness. I once asked someone for directions, but was being glared at profusely the second I said 'hello'. He wasn't in any hurry, but he already loathed the idea of giving anyone else the time of day.

Interesting, you just described every human habitation with less than several hundred thousand people i have ever visited. I really don't know what to say, i have always found London immensely easy to deal with and the population to generally be nicer than in most places overrun by tourists. Really both London and Wales has had some of the friendlier people i have encountered, especially compared to the surliness i saw in Paris and the outright hostility of Budapest.

[Lord of Rapture]

You know what's a good turn based system? The one in KotOR. I just wish it seemed likely that I'd ever get to look upon it's smiling face in a new context, but it looks like there's only so much I can pretend that TOR doesn't exist :smallfrown:

Oh god no. KOTOR 2 rocked, no doubt, but I hated, absolutely hated the combat system of the game. Sometimes, mixing real time and turn based combat works, like in Valkyria Chronicles, but KOTOR just missed the mark, despite being a superior game.

[Brother Oni]

I once asked someone for directions, but was being glared at profusely the second I said 'hello'. He wasn't in any hurry, but he already loathed the idea of giving anyone else the time of day.


Every country has its own cultural quirks and ways of behaving in public. In Japan, you don't wear shoes in homes (they usually provide slippers, even at tourist sites), in England, you never address a complete stranger with 'hello' unless you've pre-arranged to meet them.

You should have started with 'Excuse me'. :smallbiggrin:

[Terraoblivion]

Actually i don't know anywhere you address strangers without using the equivalent of "excuse me" in the local language as an introduction. Hello implies familiarity as well as a desire for an extended conversation which is rather off-putting in most cases as it is an intrusion into your intimate sphere.

[warty goblin]

Oh god no. KOTOR 2 rocked, no doubt, but I hated, absolutely hated the combat system of the game. Sometimes, mixing real time and turn based combat works, like in Valkyria Chronicles, but KOTOR just missed the mark, despite being a superior game.

I absolutely agree with you there. KoTOR's combat was just so...boring. It's not that I insist that all my games have edge of the seat intense combat where success or failure are balanced on a razor's edge, but I do like it if the game at least tries to act dynamic.

Oh, anybody here ever played Massive Assault? Now that was a turn-based strategy game with some serious brains. And so elegant too, just a couple statistics for every unit, but their interactions were deep and fascinating. Coupled with the World War mode, I consider it one of the best ever produced. Some people may hate on the totally symmetrical sides, but I think they actually made the game stronger. That way it wasn't about exploiting some particular unbalanced combo your enemy didn't have access too, but fighting them tooth and nail for every hex.

Also I think that enemy rocket launchers are responsible for a good 80% of all videogame induced rage I have ever experienced.

[deuxhero]

You know what's a good turn based system? The one in KotOR. ]

KotOR combat good? without a negetive between them? Strange.


KotOR's combat is possibly the worst I've ever seen!. The options are non-existent (I use the combat option I dumped the feats into, throw a grenade that does less damage then just whacking them or hit them without the strictly better combat option I blew all the feats on, OPTIONS!), the AI is horrible (No really, I meant "Attack the guy right in front of you" not "guy barely visible that hasn't gotten involved yet"), the controls and camera are bad. This wouldn't have been so bad, if the game didn't love spaming new weak enemies that pose no threat every room (why do devs feel the need to put in filler combat when their combat system is so bad?)!

Now Jagged Alliance 2. THAT was some good combat. Temple of Elemental Evil (Troika's 2nd game that is a remake of the adventure of the same name) wasn't bad either.

[chiasaur11]

KotOR combat good? without a negetive between them? Strange.


KotOR's combat is possibly the worst I've ever seen!. The options are non-existent (I use the combat option I dumped the feats into, throw a grenade that does less damage then just whacking them or hit them without the strictly better combat option I blew all the feats on, OPTIONS!), the AI is horrible (No really, I meant "Attack the guy right in front of you" not "guy barely visible that hasn't gotten involved yet"), the controls and camera are bad. This wouldn't have been so bad, if the game didn't love spaming new weak enemies that pose no threat every room (why do devs feel the need to put in filler combat when their combat system is so bad?)!

Now Jagged Alliance 2. THAT was some good combat. Temple of Elemental Evil (Troika's 2nd game that is a remake of the adventure of the same name) wasn't bad either.

I still love X-Com's combat best.

Blaster Bombs. Either pure joy or pure evil. There is no middle ground.

[warty goblin]

KotOR combat good? without a negetive between them? Strange.


KotOR's combat is possibly the worst I've ever seen!. The options are non-existent (I use the combat option I dumped the feats into, throw a grenade that does less damage then just whacking them or hit them without the strictly better combat option I blew all the feats on, OPTIONS!), the AI is horrible (No really, I meant "Attack the guy right in front of you" not "guy barely visible that hasn't gotten involved yet"), the controls and camera are bad. This wouldn't have been so bad, if the game didn't love spaming new weak enemies that pose no threat every room (why do devs feel the need to put in filler combat when their combat system is so bad?)!
.

I think it's an RPG thing, the filler combat. Something to do with the player being some sort of epic badass hero. Apparently brutalizing them every five feet sorta ruins the epic hero atmosphere.

[deuxhero]

MegaTen proves that each and every (level approprite) encounter can be a risk, KotOR is just full of turkey because Bioware isn't too good at making kosher products.

[chiasaur11]

MegaTen proves that each and every (level approprite) encounter can be a risk, KotOR is just full of turkey because Bioware isn't too good at making kosher products.

And megaten has a reputation for being, shall we say, not new user friendly.

And it really, really hurts the whole "I'm Ace Shepard, intergalactic badass" feel when every single random schmuck in the galaxy can one shot you if you make a tiny mistake.

Not saying Bioware is perfect, but they do seem to be trying to get better at making the encounters fun without making every single one nightmarish.

[Terraoblivion]

Unless you play on hard the encounters are generally not hard in MegaTen if you have a clue what you are doing. At least that was the case in Nocturne, DDS 1 and 2 and P3 and P4. Devil Survivor is a bit of a special case since it is a tactical RPG and thus have much fewer battles in general. And the only user unfriendliness i really found in MegaTen was a ton of paranoia about getting a good ending in Nocturne. That was really it. Other than that it was pretty straightforward and easy to deal with and definitely less confusing for me than the interfaces of post-BG II Bioware games.

[warty goblin]

I suspect another thing that makes it more difficult for an RPG to have really consistantly combat is that most RPGs don't have much in the way of an idea of tactical loss/strategic victory, or even acceptable loss rates.

See, in a game with a largescale player controlled strategy component like Massive Assault, Age of Wonders, Galactic Civilizations 2 and so forth I can lose a battle, but inflict enough harm that I halt an enemy offensive, or simply wear them out through a war of attrition. In an RPG I either win or lose, and if I lose I reload and try again until I win. Since I have to win every battle, every battle must be winnable, and unless the designers want me to be frustrated constantly, most battles should be winnable with a mediocum of fuss.

But because victory is binary, and RPGs are wedded to leveling up and looting mechanics, a fight is always an empowering experience. That is, you basically never leave a fight weaker than when you went into it. You might have used a lot of potions, but those can be replaced and most of the time the fight will have produced more than enough cash to replace the lost consumables. It never costs you permanent, hard to replace anything. Companions that are taken down bounce up just fine five seconds later, and you might even level up or find some valuable new item that makes you stronger.

So what you end up with is that the player cannot be likely to lose most battles, because that would be frustrating, but most battles are at the same time incapable of inflicting any form of lasting damage to the player. There's no concept of trade-off in an RPG, if you can destroy an enemy you should, because doing so will increase your strength at zero cost. That's the utter absense of strategy, and is I suspect why the tactical portion of most RPGs fails to really interest me because there isn't any strategic layer to tie it into.

[Klose_the_Sith]

EDITFORGOTMYACTUALRESPONSEOOPSO_O:


KotOR combat good? without a negetive between them? Strange.


KotOR's combat is possibly the worst I've ever seen!. The options are non-existent (I use the combat option I dumped the feats into, throw a grenade that does less damage then just whacking them or hit them without the strictly better combat option I blew all the feats on, OPTIONS!), the AI is horrible (No really, I meant "Attack the guy right in front of you" not "guy barely visible that hasn't gotten involved yet"), the controls and camera are bad. This wouldn't have been so bad, if the game didn't love spaming new weak enemies that pose no threat every room (why do devs feel the need to put in filler combat when their combat system is so bad?)!

Seems strange then, that I never encountered these problems. I've played every game that every came my way, but I still really loved the way it all worked - I found the controls straightforward and intuitive, and the only problem with the AI was when they got caught a mile or so behind me when walking about and I had to wait for them to catch up.

Still, the intuitive thing just comes from my strange way of thinking. I so rarely see things from so much as a similar perspective, even if I like the same aspects of the same thing as someone. So there's little point arguing this one, I just suddenly remembered how much I enjoyed *that* turn based approach.


How did you find out about the happiness tax, anyway?

I thought that was a secret.

I came from a country where there isn't a tax.

It became obvious pretty soon after arrival.


Every country has its own cultural quirks and ways of behaving in public. In Japan, you don't wear shoes in homes (they usually provide slippers, even at tourist sites), in England, you never address a complete stranger with 'hello' unless you've pre-arranged to meet them.

You should have started with 'Excuse me'. :smallbiggrin:

Granted, but something so bizarrely unapparent isn't cause to glare and start hating someone. Especially not someone with an adorable Australian accent and rugged good looks, the traditional response when encountered with such a person seemed to be "so you're from New Zealand, huh?".

(Which is another really weird thing in England, everyone seemed to think that New Zealand was sweet as. You guys do know that it's just a sheep covered island off of Australia's glorious coast, right?)


Interesting, you just described every human habitation with less than several hundred thousand people i have ever visited. I really don't know what to say, i have always found London immensely easy to deal with and the population to generally be nicer than in most places overrun by tourists. Really both London and Wales has had some of the friendlier people i have encountered, especially compared to the surliness i saw in Paris and the outright hostility of Budapest.

Well don't come to Australia, the friendliness will cause your British peon (not serious, just in case you couldn't tell :smalltongue:) head to explode. That and efficiently designed and varied shopping centres will probably maul what's left of your body into oblivion. Not to mention all the cool houses.


Actually i don't know anywhere you address strangers without using the equivalent of "excuse me" in the local language as an introduction. Hello implies familiarity as well as a desire for an extended conversation which is rather off-putting in most cases as it is an intrusion into your intimate sphere.

First country I've ever been too where it worked like that. And I've been to a lot of countries. In Australia saying "hello" is in many ways too formal, you'd be better off with "hey". Seriously.

Heck, I met a handful of Americans and English-speaking Germans at Heathrow. None of them minded being greeted in such a fashion. Maybe it's just an English elitist thing? Dunno.

Also, intimate sphere intrusion? That's just ridiculous, all things considered. If you've got anything important going on then that's fine, but people who meander don't get the right to be unfriendly. Or at least, not outright hostile.

[Terraoblivion]

We are talking about one person, it might just have been a fluke you know. But saying "hello", or the local equivalent in Danish which is "hej" is not something you do to a random person on the street. At best they will think you rude, at worst they will think you are trying to make them join a cult. As far as i know it is the same in Sweden and Norway and it definitely is in Germany and Britain. It is just how it goes as for why Germans would be more inclined to accept hello is most likely that they speak a non-native language and don't know all the finer points of it.

But you have to get used to Europeans being cooler and more distanced than most other people, culturally speaking. At least in the public sphere, similarly homes and especially the privacy of them hold a much larger importance in northern Europe than elsewhere. There is a reason we spend much more money on improving them than people do in the rest of the world. It is also worth remembering that to people up here it is not considered unfriendly to keep your distance, rather it is just the way it is. Being overly familiar is considered unfriendly on the other hand. So personally i chalk this up to a mix between cultural differences and plain bad luck.

Also i have been to Australia, but only rural areas. Towns there weren't terribly well-designed or architecturally diverse. I also recall the locals as being more unfriendly than the ones i've met in Britain. In general of the places i've been to, the friendliest people have been Britain, Germany, China and Cuba while the unfriendliest were France, Belgium and especially Hungary.

And just curious. Where in London did you spend your time?

[Drascin]

We are talking about one person, it might just have been a fluke you know. But saying "hello", or the local equivalent in Danish which is "hej" is not something you do to a random person on the street. At best they will think you rude, at worst they will think you are trying to make them join a cult. As far as i know it is the same in Sweden and Norway and it definitely is in Germany and Britain. It is just how it goes as for why Germans would be more inclined to accept hello is most likely that they speak a non-native language and don't know all the finer points of it.

But you have to get used to Europeans being cooler and more distanced than most other people, culturally speaking. At least in the public sphere, similarly homes and especially the privacy of them hold a much larger importance in northern Europe than elsewhere. There is a reason we spend much more money on improving them than people do in the rest of the world. It is also worth remembering that to people up here it is not considered unfriendly to keep your distance, rather it is just the way it is. Being overly familiar is considered unfriendly on the other hand. So personally i chalk this up to a mix between cultural differences and plain bad luck.

Well, depends on the particular place in Europe, of course. Here in Spain, at least, people tend to be rather more open and familiar. Few, if any, are going to take offense or even notice any protocol failure at you going "hello, sorry for bothering, but do you know where [X] is?". Chances are they'll find it more annoying if you speak English than any supposed "protocol faux-passes" (which really aren't, to most) you make, really, because few people here have a decent grasp of English so they're probably having a serious hell of a time understanding you and giving you directions in a language they studied for a grand total of three years of highschool :smalltongue:.

Really, as a people, we're not "classically polite", as it were :smallwink:.

[Klose_the_Sith]

We are talking about one person, it might just have been a fluke you know. But saying "hello", or the local equivalent in Danish which is "hej" is not something you do to a random person on the street. At best they will think you rude, at worst they will think you are trying to make them join a cult. As far as i know it is the same in Sweden and Norway and it definitely is in Germany and Britain. It is just how it goes as for why Germans would be more inclined to accept hello is most likely that they speak a non-native language and don't know all the finer points of it.

But the second we're talking about foreign languages then the equivalents will never be perfect, basically nullifying your danish example. It's true that it was just a random person on the street, but it's also the first example that sprung into my mind. I can think of only a few examples of actually dealing with people at all, tbh. Just how derro most of you looked put me straight off. I did meet a couple of alright 'kids' in Oxford (or Cambridge, dunno which).

I'll potentially yield that German point in hindsight, but not on the basis you're describing. It's just that I forgot to account for the fact that we were all metalheads and thus had circumstance bonuses to getting along up the wazoo.


But you have to get used to Europeans being cooler and more distanced than most other people, culturally speaking. At least in the public sphere, similarly homes and especially the privacy of them hold a much larger importance in northern Europe than elsewhere. There is a reason we spend much more money on improving them than people do in the rest of the world. It is also worth remembering that to people up here it is not considered unfriendly to keep your distance, rather it is just the way it is. Being overly familiar is considered unfriendly on the other hand. So personally i chalk this up to a mix between cultural differences and plain bad luck.

Yeah, probably. Doesn't make your people any less nasty in terms of derro-concentration though :smalltongue:


Also i have been to Australia, but only rural areas. Towns there weren't terribly well-designed or architecturally diverse. I also recall the locals as being more unfriendly than the ones i've met in Britain. In general of the places i've been to, the friendliest people have been Britain, Germany, China and Cuba while the unfriendliest were France, Belgium and especially Hungary.

The second you mention rural areas that point flies. Rural areas are just clusters of buildings here and there catering to the basic needs, it's all about the community and little else. The people were probably just unfriendly because of your cold, dead British stare :smalltongue:


And just curious. Where in London did you spend your time?

We were staying somewhere near the Thames, but spent few days in the same place. Basically we went all over the place and I cannot honestly say why, in the end. There was nothing new to be found wherever we went to, except perhaps Notting Hill. Then you had some genuinely interesting antique shops and streets where the same house gets copy-pasted a dozen times. It was just like a cross between a Sydney street market and one of those creepy planned suburbs that crop up here and there.

[Terraoblivion]

Sounds like the suburbs, because there are some fairly varied districts in City of London and City of Westminster, which is to say the inner parts of the city. At least i have a hard time seeing how anybody can say that the 19th century monumental architecture near Piccadilly Circus looks like the 1990s and 21st century fancy architecture of the docks or the old factories and workers homes near Brick Lane or the old palatial townhouses north of Hyde Park. And definitely not like the medieval architecture in the otherwise extremely dull Inner Temple district.

And i would say it does make people around here less nasty. You just need to adapt to a different social code in order to not seem annoying and intrusive. :smalltongue:

[Lord of Rapture]

Haven't we gone wildly off topic. :smallcool:

[Ethdred]

Yes, but who cares?

I should point out that, in London, being approached in the street by someone with an Australian (or many other foreign accents) who starts off with 'Hello' immediately marks them down as trying to sell you something, hence the glare and the moving on. Don't blame us, blame all the chuggers.

As for all the buildings looking the same, I assume you are referring to the fact that they all have walls and roofs. Otherwise I can't see where the similarities are. Just looking out of my office windown here I can see about 8 different styles of architecture.

The only city in Australia I've been to is Sydney, which was certainly very pleasant in many ways, but I can't say that I noticed a superiority of design over London.

Mind you, if you can't remember the difference between Oxford and Cambridge, I'm not going to take your criticisms to heart - you were probably in Birmingham.

Back on topic - that Elemental game looks interesting. Anyone know any more about it?

Edit: And if we're discussing European wines, can I put in a mention for Spanish wines - I've had some fab ones, especially when I went to Spain. Apparently the tricksy little so-and-so's keep all the best stuff for themselves

[toasty]

Yes, but who cares?

I wish more Forums agreed with this principle. :smallfrown:

And Klose, I have to point out that any city has rude people. I was looking for directions once and one guy yelled back at me, "go away!" the next two guys very nicely gave directions. (This wasn't in London, granted, but the principle applies, nonetheless).

[Knaight]

Edit: And if we're discussing European wines, can I put in a mention for Spanish wines - I've had some fab ones, especially when I went to Spain. Apparently the tricksy little so-and-so's keep all the best stuff for themselves

Greece does the same thing, and they have some quality wine.

[Ethdred]

I wish more Forums agreed with this principle. :smallfrown:



To be clear, that was simply a personal opinion, motivated by the fact I had more to say on the off-topic than the on-topic point :) The mods here may have another opinion - I don't want to get blamed for kicking off a campaign of mass civil disobedience :)

[SolkaTruesilver]

Back on topic - that Elemental game looks interesting. Anyone know any more about it?

Edit: And if we're discussing European wines, can I put in a mention for Spanish wines - I've had some fab ones, especially when I went to Spain. Apparently the tricksy little so-and-so's keep all the best stuff for themselves

I read most of the Journal notes on the website. What do you want to know?

Draginol is really pushing for Beta tester inputs, and has somewhat rehauled many systems in the game based on these inputs. The beta is played with only a cloth map for now, aiming for the objective of being fun while having no graphics at all.

City development won't be like in Civ-like games, with a single tile using the city and that's that. Cities will spread in multiple tiles, and you might want to spread toward ressources, etc...

You will create you own units. There ain't a "Knight" unit, but you can design one if you wish. Then add a flaming sword, a dragon mouth, and lightning shurikens if you have the ressources.

[Ethdred]

I read most of the Journal notes on the website. What do you want to know?

Draginol is really pushing for Beta tester inputs, and has somewhat rehauled many systems in the game based on these inputs. The beta is played with only a cloth map for now, aiming for the objective of being fun while having no graphics at all.

City development won't be like in Civ-like games, with a single tile using the city and that's that. Cities will spread in multiple tiles, and you might want to spread toward ressources, etc...

You will create you own units. There ain't a "Knight" unit, but you can design one if you wish. Then add a flaming sword, a dragon mouth, and lightning shurikens if you have the ressources.


I read the Overview but not the Journal notes - I wasn't sure if that was game design or more back story (which may be fun but is useless in giving you an idea what the game will be like).

Basically, I was after any idea how different it's going to be from other games. So the city development sounds great - actually seeing your city spread isn't something I've seen in other TBS games but will be really good, especially if it has an effect on combat (so which angle you are attacked from makes a difference).

I'll also be interested in unit creation. Obviously gives lots of strategic and tactical options, but could also look really cool. Rather than having the same Legions or whatever as your opponents. The only game I've seen this in to a great extent is GalCiv, though Alpha Centauri had a basic unit creator. But one space ship still looks much like another - adding dragon breath and shurikens is a different dimension. I just hope they don't ruin it with a paper-rock-scissors combat mechanism.

[Brother Oni]

Granted, but something so bizarrely unapparent isn't cause to glare and start hating someone. Especially not someone with an adorable Australian accent and rugged good looks, the traditional response when encountered with such a person seemed to be "so you're from New Zealand, huh?".


As others have said, Europeans are much more emotionally distant. You could put this down to the much higher population density, causing more social customs to be formed to prevent us killing each other.
Trying to start a converation with a random stranger while on the London Underground is borderline reasonable grounds for ostracisation/lynching. :smalltongue:

Speaking personally, I can just about tell the difference between an Ozzie and a Kiwi accent, but I wouldn't put money on it.



(Which is another really weird thing in England, everyone seemed to think that New Zealand was sweet as. You guys do know that it's just a sheep covered island off of Australia's glorious coast, right?)


So like Wales then. :smalltongue:

I'd probably put it down to those three tourism movies about the New Zealand landscape... what was it called again? Lord of the Rings? :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

And it really, really hurts the whole "I'm Ace Shepard, intergalactic badass" feel when every single random schmuck in the galaxy can one shot you if you make a tiny mistake.

No, I disagree *grabs collar*. It makes the PC much more badass if they actually have a challenge to kill enemies, otherwise it seems as though the enemies are just (literally) lame, rather than you being badass.

[SolkaTruesilver]

II'll also be interested in unit creation. Obviously gives lots of strategic and tactical options, but could also look really cool. Rather than having the same Legions or whatever as your opponents. The only game I've seen this in to a great extent is GalCiv, though Alpha Centauri had a basic unit creator. But one space ship still looks much like another - adding dragon breath and shurikens is a different dimension. I just hope they don't ruin it with a paper-rock-scissors combat mechanism.

Oh, also Spell Creation. You will be able to design your own spells, I think.

In-game quests, like... err.. ... like what game? I dunnow, but there will be some.

Family tree. You will have children, who will be your main heroes. Your children will have children, etc.. you can marry off some characters with other faction. If you marry a daughter, she joins the other faction. If you marry a son, his wife joins your faction. However, 2/3 of the couple's children will join the mother's nation of origin.

Small city numbers. They want your empire to be made of 4-5 cities, all of them crucial and specialised. You cannot just build all improvement in a city, as the size is limited. So you will have to make each of them special in a way, and transform them over time as your empire's need will change.

[Astrella]

I'll also be interested in unit creation. Obviously gives lots of strategic and tactical options, but could also look really cool. Rather than having the same Legions or whatever as your opponents. The only game I've seen this in to a great extent is GalCiv, though Alpha Centauri had a basic unit creator. But one space ship still looks much like another - adding dragon breath and shurikens is a different dimension. I just hope they don't ruin it with a paper-rock-scissors combat mechanism.

If you're interested in custom unit creation, I'd check out a game in the Space Empires series.

[Ethdred]

Oh, also Spell Creation. You will be able to design your own spells, I think.

In-game quests, like... err.. ... like what game? I dunnow, but there will be some.

Spell design sounds fun! In-game quests is something I saw in a Chinese MMO I played for a bit at the end of last year. Forgotten the name - had Empire in it! But they had a whole list of different quests - some around developing your city and exploring the game, some that advanced the plot, others that just gave you something to do. I thought it was a really good idea, especially the way it encouraged you to at least try everything in the game - but would have been even better if they had had a decent translator :)



Family tree. You will have children, who will be your main heroes. Your children will have children, etc.. you can marry off some characters with other faction. If you marry a daughter, she joins the other faction. If you marry a son, his wife joins your faction. However, 2/3 of the couple's children will join the mother's nation of origin.

Sounds a bit Total War (and that's not a bad thing). Though I noticed on the website they're saying that your character never dies, so you won't be able to have someone else inherit. But it'll be nice to keep gaining more heros for your cause. I also saw them talking about the genetics they are planning to implement, which can have some interesting results if you marry into a non-human race!



Small city numbers. They want your empire to be made of 4-5 cities, all of them crucial and specialised. You cannot just build all improvement in a city, as the size is limited. So you will have to make each of them special in a way, and transform them over time as your empire's need will change.


An excellent idea - will stop the Infinite City Sprawl-type strategies. Will be interesting to see how this actually turns out

Thanks for the info

@Sirroelivan - a friend of mine has just warned me off Space Empires, as he is losing too much of his life to it! Since I've just got back into Rome:Total War, and also have Civ4 and Mount&Blade addictions to feed, I think I'll probably steer clear for the moment :)

[Eldan]

Heck, I met a handful of Americans and English-speaking Germans at Heathrow. None of them minded being greeted in such a fashion. Maybe it's just an English elitist thing? Dunno.

Also, intimate sphere intrusion? That's just ridiculous, all things considered. If you've got anything important going on then that's fine, but people who meander don't get the right to be unfriendly. Or at least, not outright hostile.

Actually, here in switzerland, the germans have a reputation as being impolite and far too direct. Also loud and obnoxious. The polite and common way to greet someone is without body contact from two steps away. With a slight smile. Greeting strangers on the street is just weird. :smallwink:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Sounds a bit Total War (and that's not a bad thing). Though I noticed on the website they're saying that your character never dies, so you won't be able to have someone else inherit. But it'll be nice to keep gaining more heros for your cause. I also saw them talking about the genetics they are planning to implement, which can have some interesting results if you marry into a non-human race!

the creator wrote that he once saw the product of the love between his human daughter an a Gremlin (goblin-like) prince..

He had to use brainbleach with repetition. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, you will see the pictures of the hybrids that form your faction.

I really like having a huge family tree that will spawn up to dozens of peoples at the end of the 2000 turns (1 turn = 1 year), and you can trace the genealogical tree of everybody, and see who was a great hero in their time, the achievement of each..

feels like Lord of the Ring, and Elrond/Elros

[Vorpalbob]

Now, I may have missed something, but has no-one mentioned Fallout?

I mean come on!

Fallouts 1,2, and Tactics all had very effective (IMO) turn-based systems. Even Fallout 3 had VATS!

Someone mentioned KOTOR not having options? Well, Fallout stole them all (they must have put points into Steal and Sneak). When engaging an enemy, you can;

Shoot them
Set a trap and lure them onto it
punch them repeatedly
kick them repeatedly
use a sneak to spot for your grenadier
drive by in a TANK (FOT only)
cause their limbs to writhe spasmodically (Spasm Gun)
inject poison with a hypodermic needle
and the list goes on...
and on...
and on.

Sorry. I'm a bit of a Fallout nerd.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Now, I may have missed something, but has no-one mentioned Fallout?

I mean come on!

Fallouts 1,2, and Tactics all had very effective (IMO) turn-based systems. Even Fallout 3 had VATS!


VATS wasn't turn-based. And the old fallouts are too old to be considered in that discussion...

[Ethdred]

I really like having a huge family tree that will spawn up to dozens of peoples at the end of the 2000 turns (1 turn = 1 year), and you can trace the genealogical tree of everybody, and see who was a great hero in their time, the achievement of each..



Yeah, that would be cool. I wonder if they'll have that much information, or keep records of everything they did. Then you could write your own stories about the main ones, fleshing out the game stats. Though maybe not for the really ugly ones :)

[warty goblin]

Now, I may have missed something, but has no-one mentioned Fallout?

I mean come on!

Fallouts 1,2, and Tactics all had very effective (IMO) turn-based systems. Even Fallout 3 had VATS!

Someone mentioned KOTOR not having options? Well, Fallout stole them all (they must have put points into Steal and Sneak). When engaging an enemy, you can;

Shoot them
Set a trap and lure them onto it
punch them repeatedly
kick them repeatedly
use a sneak to spot for your grenadier
drive by in a TANK (FOT only)
cause their limbs to writhe spasmodically (Spasm Gun)
inject poison with a hypodermic needle
and the list goes on...
and on...
and on.

Sorry. I'm a bit of a Fallout nerd.

My annoyance with the combat in Fallout basically boiled down to the interface apparently having been playtested by a deranged llama in the seventh ring of Hell, and it not showing the hex grid. If you're gonna charge me AP I could use for shooting guys with every move, I need to be able to know how far I'm actually moving. I know the game is running on a hex grid, you know the game is running on a hex grid, let's stop kidding around and show the gorram hex grid.

Also I generally prefer my turn based games to have more than one guy in them. I can control a single person in realtime and execute quite complex tactics without significant difficulty, there's no need for turn based.

[Lord of Rapture]

My annoyance with the combat in Fallout basically boiled down to the interface apparently having been playtested by a deranged llama in the seventh ring of Hell, and it not showing the hex grid. If you're gonna charge me AP I could use for shooting guys with every move, I need to be able to know how far I'm actually moving. I know the game is running on a hex grid, you know the game is running on a hex grid, let's stop kidding around and show the gorram hex grid.

Also I generally prefer my turn based games to have more than one guy in them. I can control a single person in realtime and execute quite complex tactics without significant difficulty, there's no need for turn based.

You just summed up my heart's inner feelings. :smallredface:

Thank you. Here's an internet.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yeah, that would be cool. I wonder if they'll have that much information, or keep records of everything they did. Then you could write your own stories about the main ones, fleshing out the game stats. Though maybe not for the really ugly ones :)

You create a mighty sword that will follow your family line for hundred of years.. the first bearer gave it his name. "Elendil's Sword, Narsil". If the swordbearer gets killed, the sword "disapear". You might find it back with a proper quest.. one day..

Or maybe it will find its way into ennemy's hands..

Arg.. I'm just making that up. That'd be cool

[Vorpalbob]

My annoyance with the combat in Fallout basically boiled down to the interface apparently having been playtested by a deranged llama in the seventh ring of Hell, and it not showing the hex grid. If you're gonna charge me AP I could use for shooting guys with every move, I need to be able to know how far I'm actually moving. I know the game is running on a hex grid, you know the game is running on a hex grid, let's stop kidding around and show the gorram hex grid.

Also I generally prefer my turn based games to have more than one guy in them. I can control a single person in realtime and execute quite complex tactics without significant difficulty, there's no need for turn based.

If I'm not mistaken, if you hold the mouse still over a spot, it will display how many AP it takes to travel there.

[Goes to play Fallout]: Yep, sure does. Also, if you want a multi-character TBS, then you should at least try Fallout Tactics. It doesn't use a hex grid. It has true 2D movement. Anywhere on the ground your character should be able to go, they can. Makes getting good cover hella easy.


VATS wasn't turn-based. And the old fallouts are too old to be considered in that discussion...
I'm not saying that VATS was turn-based, I'm pointing out that it gave the game a turn-based element ie allowing you to take as long as you want to plan your attack.

[Zeful]

Many menu based RPGs are still turn based (the JRPGs mostly) mostly. Some have the abysmally stupid ABT bar some can be forgiven the pointless "advancement" caused by designers that don't know better. But for anything other than Chess of the aforementioned RPGs there's no need to have turn-based video games.

[warty goblin]

If I'm not mistaken, if you hold the mouse still over a spot, it will display how many AP it takes to travel there.

[Goes to play Fallout]: Yep, sure does. Also, if you want a multi-character TBS, then you should at least try Fallout Tactics. It doesn't use a hex grid. It has true 2D movement. Anywhere on the ground your character should be able to go, they can. Makes getting good cover hella easy.


See, that would be the sort of thing it would really nice for the in-game tutorial to tell me. Except there isn't one.

And Fallout: Tactics ain't bad, but it didn't fill me with joy either. Mostly because the interface was a straight lift of the Fallut interface, which I found mostly incapable of allowing me to control one character, let alone multiples. The single perspective isomorphic camera was also simply not up to the task of allowing me to accurately determine what the hell was going on.

Given that it was released a year after Massive Assault, which was fully 3-D, absolutely gorgeous, and had a remarkably powerful interface and camera, even in retrospect I'm just not gonna deal with that. Granted, Massive Assault is mechanically a much simpler game than the Fallouts (although I would argue that strategically it's probably deeper), and so the interface can be a lot simpler, but that still doesn't excuse the camera.

I'm not saying that VATS was turn-based, I'm pointing out that it gave the game a turn-based element ie allowing you to take as long as you want to plan your attack.[/QUOTE]